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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10500 - November 04, 2021, 09:53 AM

    Robert Kerr - The Original Islamic Hajj to Jerusalem

    https://www.academia.edu/45027659/The_Original_Islamic_Hajj_To_Jerusalem

    thanks  zeca., that is wonderful small article from Robert Kerr.,

    He is very thorough investigative historian of Islam ., on top of that let me add another one from him  The Koran did not originate in Mecca or Medina

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10501 - November 04, 2021, 03:59 PM

    Thread: https://twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1456282308147916802
    Quote
    The Lower text of the Sanaa Palimpest is exciting to researchers, because its lower text is a non-Uthmanic version of the Quran. When the wording differs between the Palimpsest and the Uthmanic text, how do we decode which one is more original? A thread on a variant at Q19:26

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10502 - November 04, 2021, 04:02 PM

    Quote
    The added word wa-ṣamtan, in fact, does not occur in the Uthmanic text at all. As such, we can safely exclude the possibility of auto-contamination, there is no place where a scribe could have gotten wa-ṣamtan from in the text of the Quran.

    Therefore, the more likely explanation is that it is a case of Major Omission in the Uthmanic text. i.e. When the Quranic text was dictated, the dictation had the phrasing ʾinnī naḏartu li-r-raḥmāni ṣawman wa-ṣamtan. But the Uthmanic scribe failed to write down this word.

    This is an example of what Sadeghi calls a "major plus" that cannot easily be explained as the result of issues of memory while writing down from dictation.

    In other words: the Sanaa Palimpest seems to have the more original wording here.

    The fact that this very variant is indeed also attested in OTHER companion copies of the Quran, clearly also suggests that the scribe of the Sanaa Palimpsest's text type was not the only person to hear it, strengthening the evidence that the addition is the original wording.

    In Sadeghi's original 2010 article, he found in the few folios he had examined of the Sanaa Palimpsest no examples of major pluses. Which meant that technically the Sanaa Palimpsest could have been a descendant from the Uthmanic text type.

    But with the publication of Sadeghi & Goudarzi's edition, it is clear that there are indeed several major pluses in the Sanaa Palimpsest (including this one), which means that the text cannot descend from the Uthmanic text, and in this case retains the more original phrasing.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10503 - November 04, 2021, 04:16 PM

    Thread: https://twitter.com/abhistoria/status/1455971039993868298
    Quote
    A ḥadīth in Bukhārī on the authority of Jundub b. ʿAbd Allāh tell us that when Gabriel delayed the revelation to Muḥammad, a lady from Quryash said contemptuously:"his Satan has been late in coming" [أبطأ عليه شيطانه]. Why did she conflate Gabriel with Satan? A short thread.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10504 - November 04, 2021, 04:43 PM

    https://twitter.com/jricole/status/1452289462445264902
    Quote
    As you know but the fundies do not, the Peshitta has Jesus say alahi for 'my God' which the Greek transliterates as Eloi at Mark 15:34; Alaha is the Aramaic cognate for Allah in Arabic.
    http://www.dukhrana.com/lexicon/word.php?adr=2:909&font=Estrangelo+Edessa&source=ubs&size=150

    Quote
    Dear @PhDniX . Would you comment on the above post by Prof Cole?

    Quote
    *if* the etymology of Aḷḷāh from al-ʾilāh is correct (which I think it probably is, but it's not without its problems), the indeed Aramaic ʾelāh-ā or specifically Syriac ʾallāhā is perfectly cognate.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10505 - November 04, 2021, 09:11 PM

    Thread: https://twitter.com/SemlangU/status/1446108829100347414
    Quote
    It’s hard to keep track of the many back-and-forths on the topic of whether or not Makka, in the form of Bakka ( بَكَّةُ Q 3:96), is mentioned in Ps. 84:7 as עמק הבכא often translated as “the valley of Baca” or “valley of weeping”.

    Quote
    12/12 Addendum: Whether or not Makka and Bakka is the same place is a separate issue. However, the explanation of a dialectical variant with a sound correspondence or change of mim and ba seems to me ad hoc with little evidence in Arabic historical linguistics.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10506 - November 05, 2021, 11:51 AM


    my goodness look at that ., I knew it., I knew this since I was a kid., 

    This BUKHARI BULLSHIT is added in to Islam for loot & booty in the name of Prophet/Preacher.,  SO ROGUES WHO JOINED IN TO ISLAM can  loot and take booty from  innocent folks who joined in to Islam as well as innocent folks around them who were not Muslim., These roguish thugs of Islam  have done it since the death of frist preacher of Islam ((and still doing it)) with the excuse that they are following in the Prophet's foot steps., Such ROGUES ARE THERE AROUND THE GLOBE even today.,

    I like that one.. zeca..,   dear zeca  get more of such stuff from web/twitter/whats up .. SHUT UP BUKHARI BULLSHIT ISLAM FOLLOWING MUSLIM FOOLS.... whatever ...  and I will add  those junk bukhari bull shit in to the folder that is hidden some where in this forum..

    thank you ... with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10507 - November 06, 2021, 12:39 PM



    The only issue of MVP is (for me...) to accept to enter in the premise of Goudarzi et al., namely that the text has been transmitted by 'dictation'. And that it is 'dictation' which is responsible of the word change in the Sanaa text.
    Goudarzi is a Muslim scholar, he is obliged to follow what the narrative said about the transmission of the text and to explain what one sees in the Sanaa palimpsest,  he is obliged to invent a theory that in a dictation exercise, scribes adds words which are not pronounced by the one who dictates the text.
    My school curriculum got at each grades many 'dictation' exercises. I have never heard a teacher stating that people around me had added words that did not exist in the dictation exercise. Never, except (very) few times and especially at the age of 8,9,10, years old.
    I was very good at the the dictation exercise and I was very aware of the teacher commentaries about our work.
    There is no 'added' word by dictation, because there was no 'dictation'. There was texts.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10508 - November 06, 2021, 01:57 PM

    ...........................
    Goudarzi is a Muslim scholar, he is obliged to follow what the narrative said about the transmission of the text .......................

    Hello Altara .,   Mohsen Goudarzi is Muslim scholar??  you mean to say he is Muslim??  or did you mean to say that he is "Islamic Scholar"?


    Goudarzi is a Muslim scholar, he is obliged to follow what the narrative said about the transmission of the text and to explain what one sees in the Sanaa palimpsest,  he is obliged to invent a theory that in a dictation exercise, scribes adds words which are not pronounced by the one who dictates the text.................


    True If the person is Muslim and follow the faith Islam., yes He/she is obliged/forced (((forced by the society around her/him or /and obliged/forced by  Islamic Govts /country that he/she living in))),follow or invent the story that fits Islam followers .,

    but otherwise.,  why a Scholar of Islam or Scholar of Quran living in AMRIKA and working in a prestigious institute need to oblige anything except explore / investigate the facts of history of faith and origins of faith books ??

    I don't think Mohsen has any OBLIGAION dear Altara unless his funding is coming from source that makes him obligated on certain narrations of origins of Quran

    Ṣan‘ā’ 1 and the Origins of the Qur’ān.pdf

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10509 - November 06, 2021, 03:01 PM

    The only issue of MVP is (for me...) to accept to enter in the premise of Goudarzi et al., namely that the text has been transmitted by 'dictation'. And that it is 'dictation' which is responsible of the word change in the Sanaa text.
    Goudarzi is a Muslim scholar, he is obliged to follow what the narrative said about the transmission of the text and to explain what one sees in the Sanaa palimpsest,  he is obliged to invent a theory that in a dictation exercise, scribes adds words which are not pronounced by the one who dictates the text.
    My school curriculum got at each grades many 'dictation' exercises. I have never heard a teacher stating that people around me had added words that did not exist in the dictation exercise. Never, except (very) few times and especially at the age of 8,9,10, years old.
    I was very good at the the dictation exercise and I was very aware of the teacher commentaries about our work.
    There is no 'added' word by dictation, because there was no 'dictation'. There was texts.


    I take the point about 'dictation'. MVP isn't saying that a word has been added though. He's saying that a word has been omitted in the 'Uthmanic' text. Couldn't it be argued that the omission of a word by a scribal copyist (in the 'Uthmanic' text) is more likely than the addition of a word (in the Sanaa palimpsest)?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10510 - November 06, 2021, 03:39 PM

    Thread: https://twitter.com/iandavidmorris/status/1456294479707705346
    Quote
    I’ve been looking at contemporary exegesis (tafsīr) of Qur’an 2:259, and I’m struck by how many writers, across denominations, reject the legendary portions of the classical tradition.


    All the more reason to try and hang on to the parts that can be plausibly argued to be historical?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10511 - November 06, 2021, 05:05 PM

    Quote
    Couldn't it be argued that the omission of a word by a scribal copyist (in the 'Uthmanic' text) is more likely than the addition of a word (in the Sanaa palimpsest)?


    Yes. But (for me...) all of this is accessory. The main topic is that the transmission is not oral.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10512 - November 06, 2021, 09:06 PM

    Real Talk with Peter Webb (part 2)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIal9Z0rcCs It's worth watching part 1 first.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10513 - November 06, 2021, 09:20 PM

    Emran El-Badawi - Philology, Patriarchy and Pre-Islamic Arabia
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYaMir9X0Uw&t=3093s
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10514 - November 07, 2021, 01:00 PM

    Real Talk with Peter Webb (part 2)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIal9Z0rcCs It's worth watching part 1 first.


     ...  Terron Poole.....Terron Poole.....Terron Poole., interesting links and collection of youtubes from him., 

    https://www.youtube.com/user/TheGentleArtist87/videos

    https://twitter.com/bin_ibadh?lang=en



    interesting interviews

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10515 - November 08, 2021, 08:21 PM

    Ahmad Al-Jallad: Arabic Inscriptions and the Rise of Islam
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_c5P88M2Xk
    Quote
    In this interview, I had the pleasure of sitting down with Professor Ahmad Al-Jallad of The Ohio State University. Professor Al-Jallad is the Sophia Chair in Arabic studies and his work focuses on epigraphy, philology, the history of language. Professor Al-Jallad has been on the cutting edge of many new studies and discoveries in the history of Arabic and the Arabian Peninsula.

    Here we discuss his journey to philology and the study of Arabic as well as his recent findings in the field. We also address the implications of these findings how they impact our understanding of Pre-Islamic Arabia.

    More information about Professor Al-Jallad can be found here: https://nelc.osu.edu/people/al-jallad.1

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10516 - November 10, 2021, 05:05 PM

    New book

    The Study of Islamic Origins New Perspectives and Contexts
    Edited by: Mette Bjerregaard Mortensen, Guillaume Dye, Isaac W. Oliver and Tommaso Tesei

    https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/9783110675498/html
    Quote
    The study of Islam’s origins from a rigorous historical and social science perspective is still wanting. At the same time, a renewed attention is being paid to the very plausible pre-canonical redactional and editorial stages of the Qur'an, a book whose core many contemporary scholars agree to be formed by various independent writings in which encrypted passages from the OT Pseudepigrapha, the NT Apocrypha, and other ancient writings of Jewish, Christian, and Manichaean provenance may be found. Likewise, the earliest Islamic community is presently regarded by many scholars as a somewhat undetermined monotheistic group that evolved from an original Jewish-Christian milieu into a distinct Muslim group perhaps much later than commonly assumed and in a rather unclear way. The following volume gathers select studies that were originally shared at the Early Islamic Studies Seminar. These studies aim at exploring afresh the dawn and early history of Islam with the tools of biblical criticism as well as the approaches set forth in the study of Second Temple Judaism, Christian, and Rabbinic origins, thereby contributing to the renewed, interdisciplinary study of formative Islam as part and parcel of the complex processes of religious identity formation during Late Antiquity.


    https://twitter.com/tom47748/status/1457722431121104900
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10517 - November 11, 2021, 11:52 AM

    Dye (The Study of Islamic Origins New Perspectives and Contexts)
    Mapping the Sources of the Qur’anic Jesus
    Note 2.
    "By “Christian context,”I refer to several things (Dye 2019, 764–70): 1) several important Qur’anic characters are typically Christian figures: Jesus, Mary, John, Zachariah, the Sleepersof the Cave, and so on; 2) quite often, when Qur’anic narratives refer to figures shared by Jews and Christians (Adam, Joseph, Moses, etc.), they seem to mirror more closely Christian narratives than Jewish ones (see e.g., Witztum 2011): in short, the subtexts of many (para-)biblical stories in the Qur’ān tend to be closer to Christian texts than Jewish ones, as far as we can tell;3) some Qur’anic rhetorical arguments or topoi are directly borrowed from Christian sources: the anti-Jewish polemics, the use of the character of Abraham, and also Qur’anic demonology; furthermore, 4) many formulas and metaphors in the Qur’ān suggest a Christian background;5) some texts are clearly addressed to Christians and attest to deep interactions between “Believers”(mu’minūn) and Christians; finally, 6) some of the Qur’anic texts have been composed by literati who display a very deep and precise knowledge of Christian texts and traditions (a knowledge which cannot be gained by simple hearsay)"

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10518 - November 11, 2021, 11:58 AM

    6) some of the Qur’anic texts have been composed by literati who display a very deep and precise knowledge of Christian texts and traditions (a knowledge which cannot be gained by simple hearsay)

    It is a (very) important point. Contrary to Dye, I consider that it is not simply 'some of the Qur’anic texts have been composed by literati who display a very deep and precise knowledge of Christian texts and traditions[...]' It is all the Quranic text.
    And composed for Christian Arabs.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10519 - November 13, 2021, 12:42 PM

    6) some of the Qur’anic texts have been composed by literati who display a very deep and precise knowledge of Christian texts and traditions (a knowledge which cannot be gained by simple hearsay)

    It is a (very) important point. Contrary to Dye, I consider that it is not simply 'some of the Qur’anic texts have been composed by literati who display a very deep and precise knowledge of Christian texts and traditions[...]' It is all the Quranic text.
    And composed for Christian Arabs.

    let me rewrite a statement using those highlighted words to make it thought provoking

    Quote
    Qur’anic texts have been composed by VERY VERY deep literati who display a very deep precise knowledge of Christian texts  and they did it for Arab Christians   and those Arab Christians who became Muslims SCREWED  MIDDLE EASTERN CHRISTIANS AND THEIR CHRISTAINITY OF THAT TIME

    And I would disagree with these words ..... It is all the Quranic text....... hence they were crossed out .,  and I will also add .,
    Quote
    one can say  "The Quran authors were familiar with "Christian texts"  but the Quran the book that we see to day.,  has been edited ., and   some verse were deleted and other verses were added in it at a later time "


    Off course Altara  and many others will not agree with what I said above ..

    Anyways., So Altara  you say    And composed for Christian Arabs ..,

    That word "for"  makes me look so foolish ....

    I wonder why  you consider that .. Arab Christians of that time were so stupid  that they could not write their own texts and stories from their own Christianity but some one else wrote the texts for them in Arabic ??..


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10520 - November 13, 2021, 11:09 PM

    Quote
    I wonder why  you consider that .. Arab Christians of that time were so stupid  that they could not write their own texts and stories from their own Christianity but some one else wrote the texts for them in Arabic ..


    Because Arab Christians had no reasons to write them.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10521 - November 13, 2021, 11:26 PM

    Because Arab Christians had no reasons to write them.

    well one of the simplest reason is telling the bible stories in their own language .for their own people and the language is Arabic .,   NOT Greek or Hebrew or Aramaic  or Syrian .. or whatever other Semitic languages that were around in Arabian peninsula ....

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10522 - November 14, 2021, 05:03 PM

    Quote
    well one of the simplest reason is telling the bible stories in their own language .


    It is not original Bible stories written down in Arabic.  It is para-biblical stories already written down in Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic, Syriac retaken and reshaped in Arabic language. It is not (at all)  the same thing . At all.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10523 - November 15, 2021, 10:05 AM

    Gabriel S. Reynolds:

    "After all the Qur'an does not encounter the Bible (which was not translated into Arabic at the dawn of Islam) but rather the oral Biblical traditions of late antiquity. This is why references to Jesus' bringing a bird to life are next to his healing the blind and the leper."

    https://twitter.com/GabrielSaidR/status/1136248464462008320?s=20
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10524 - November 15, 2021, 03:02 PM

    Gabriel S. Reynolds:

    "After all the Qur'an does not encounter the Bible (which was not translated into Arabic at the dawn of Islam) but rather the oral Biblical traditions of late antiquity. This is why references to Jesus' bringing a bird to life are next to his healing the blind and the leper."

    https://twitter.com/GabrielSaidR/status/1136248464462008320?s=20


    For me the question here is why we should assume this comes from oral tradition rather than the existence and awareness of non-canonical biblical texts.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10525 - November 15, 2021, 03:55 PM

    Because Arab Christians had no reasons to write them.


    Is your argument that the quranic author(s) didn't come from a Christian background? (a different question to whether you consider that the positions they adopted placed them outside of Christianity)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10526 - November 15, 2021, 05:39 PM

    It is not original Bible stories written down in Arabic.  It is para-biblical stories already written down in Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic, Syriac retaken and reshaped in Arabic language. It is not (at all)  the same thing . At all.

    Altara says that as a response to  these posts
    https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27568.msg892289#msg892289
    https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27568.msg892292#msg892292

    Altara., whatever biblical story statements/biblical names are there in Quran verses  I read OT/NT statements together with Quran verses and I fully agree with your point of

    "It is not original Bible stories written down in Arabic." 

    as it is well known that Quran verses does not tell the  stories of OT/NT in detail ., as far as this
    ...............It is para-biblical stories already written down in Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic, Syriac retaken and reshaped in Arabic language. It is not (at all) .............

     if that above statement is true then I say what you said/copy pasted  here
    Quote
    6) some of the Qur’anic texts have been composed by literati who display a very deep and precise knowledge of Christian texts and traditions (a knowledge which cannot be gained by simple hearsay)


    It is a (very) important point. Contrary to Dye, I consider that it is not simply 'some of the Qur’anic texts have been composed by literati who display a very deep and precise knowledge of Christian texts and traditions[...]' It is all the Quranic text.
    And composed for Christian Arabs.

     DOES NOT MAKE SENSE TO ME.,  A Author who had precise knowledge of Christian texts does not need to resort to write CRYPTIC /Gibberish STATEMENTS in Arabic .,

    it means the authors of Quran did not had any knowledge of Christian texts forget precise .,  they just knew names and some tit-bits of biblical  stories  and more importantly these authors can not be  Arab Christians  or Pagan Arabs  ... and they can not be literati ..

    I would only consider them .(((. the authors of Quran ))) As ...."FAITH  REINFORCERS" Or REINFORCERS OF ISLAMIC FAITH "   True they have taken some earlier  Christian Arabic literature and rehashed them as Surahs  and made as book as word of Allah  ....... book Quran.....

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10527 - November 15, 2021, 05:47 PM

    Gabriel S. Reynolds:

    "After all the Qur'an does not encounter the Bible (which was not translated into Arabic at the dawn of Islam) but rather the oral Biblical traditions of late antiquity. This is why references to Jesus' bringing a bird to life are next to his healing the blind and the leper."

    https://twitter.com/GabrielSaidR/status/1136248464462008320?s=20

    Hi Asbjoern1958 ., in this time line of so called Islam.,

    Quote
    571: Birth of the Holy Prophet. Year of the Elephant. Invasion of Makkah by Abraha the Viceroy of Yemen, his retreat.
    ...................................................
    586: The Holy Prophet participates in the war of Fijar.
    ........................................
    595: The Holy Prophet marries Hadrat Khadija. Seventh century
    ......................................
    610: The first revelation in the cave at Mt. Hira. The Holy Prophet is commissioned as the Messenger of ............................................
    616: Second Hijrah to Abysinnia.
    .....................................

    621-622; Prophet Migrates to Madina
    ...................
    626: Expedition of Banu Mustaliq.
    ...................
    632: Farewell pilgrimage at Makkah.
    632: Death of the Holy Prophet

    what year and what date would you consider  as DAWN OF ISLAM ?? IF IT IS AFTER THE DEATH OF PROPHET OF ISLAM .. THEN PLEASE GO TO THIS LINK  Chronological History of  Islam 

    and tell me what is the year that  Dawn of Islam   started  ??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10528 - November 15, 2021, 07:20 PM

    For me the question here is why we should assume this comes from oral tradition rather than the existence and awareness of non-canonical biblical texts.


    That's correct.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10529 - November 15, 2021, 07:23 PM

    Is your argument that the quranic author(s) didn't come from a Christian background? (a different question to whether you consider that the positions they adopted placed them outside of Christianity)


    There is no obligation that they come from a Christian background.

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