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Theme Changer

 Topic: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a

 (Read 30586 times)
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  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #120 - February 18, 2010, 09:36 AM

    Will do....

    http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/schindler.html
    "This passage appears in this universal form in more than just the Talmud. It also appears like this in three other places in rabbinic literature."

    So it seems as though I have a number of things I need to check up on.  I'll certainly post back anything I find for peer review purposes.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #121 - February 18, 2010, 09:44 AM

    Does that mean it came from one source? From the first rabbi? Or from the first oral law?
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #122 - February 18, 2010, 09:46 AM

    Nice straw man argument you mocked there!  I didn't say anyone told/asked him to add anything. I am saying that if you hang around with religious Jews it isn't hard to find out about Judaism.  However if even one of them switches between Torah/Talmud it is very easy for the person listening (Muhammad) to get something mixed up.

    I'm sorry, but this really isn't looking good for Muhammad at the moment.  I have a friend in Israel who's brother is an orthodox Jew, he's going to ask him to contact me so that I can discuss the Judaism part of this phrase with him.




    Ummmm? I thought my post was directed to BD, not you... I already told you, I usually avoid conversing with people who are far more intelligent than myself...

    over the course of our conversation in this thread I realized how supremely intelligent you are and that's why I decided to never respond to any intelligent post you make... I'll keep conversing with people whom I view to be of the same level of intelligence as my myself, like BD here. Thank you very much.


    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #123 - February 18, 2010, 09:50 AM

    "Ummmm? I thought my post was directed to BD, not you"

    Ah, an easy mistake for me to make.  You quoted him quoting me, and then commented on the text that I authored and not any text that BD authored.

    As for intelligence, I don't assume I am more or less intelligent than anyone.  I just don't resign myself to "I suppose X could have happened in order to support my massive delusional reality" - I look for supporting evidence and then try to come up with the most simple explanation that seems reasonable and fits all of the facts.

    Not entirely what problem you have with that.  Take it up with Allah, he's the one that has put a veil over my eyes, ears, and heart - not me!

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #124 - February 18, 2010, 09:53 AM

    What you just said above flew right over my head... like I said, I'll have to stick to people of similar intelligence as myself.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #125 - February 18, 2010, 10:01 AM

    I'll keep conversing with people whom I view to be of the same level of intelligence as my myself, like BD here. Thank you very much.

    Not sure who should be more offended by this.. TheRationalizer or BD Thinking hard

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #126 - February 18, 2010, 10:09 AM

    @ Islame

    you're trying to turn BD against me OR you're really just trying to offend me. If it's the latter then it's OK, if it's the former, then quit it please.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #127 - February 18, 2010, 10:13 AM

    Neither, just repeating the sentiment you showed towards TheRationalizer.  Not so nice when its done back to you is it?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #128 - February 18, 2010, 10:15 AM

    Ok, so you were trying to offend me... it didn't work.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #129 - February 22, 2010, 05:58 AM

    Update

    The Talmud is a human narration on the Torah (just like a Tafsir), however it is actually a narration on the Mishna which is the ORAL Torah.  The Jews believed that Moses came down from Sinai with two Torahs - a written one and an oral one.  Their belief is that Moses had revealed to him a written Torah and a Torah which must be orally communicated.

    At some point Rabbis noticed that there were slight variations in the recitals which had come about over the years, for example "one life" / "one soul" so a few of them decided to write them down - this is how a Talmud came about.  When reading a Talmud such as the one I linked to you will see uppercase and mixed case writing.  The mixed case writing is the opinion of the Rabbi who finalised the Talmud, the uppercase text is the text which is believed to have been revealed by God directly to Moses explaining the written Torah.

    So,
    Torah = Written laws
    Mishna = Oral Torah (explaining the Torah - literally means "To study orally")
    Talmud = Mishna written down and commented on.

    What I can see from this is that the "If we slew a single person....." text is in the Mishna, so Jews believe it WAS Gods words.  However, of the 5 Talmuds...
    Talmud Bavli (babylon) - Chapter. 4 Page 3 A
    Talmud Yerushalmi (Jerusalem) - Chapter. 4 Page 5.
    Rambam-Mishne Torah - Hilchot Sanhedrin - Chapter 12.
    Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 37a
    Jerusalem Talmud, Sanhedrin 4:1 (22a)

    Apparently none of them have the exclusion mentioned in the Quran "for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth".  It's a shame that when Muhammad plagiarised such a profoundly beautiful verse he made it ugly.  However, there is more Smiley

    Quran 6:154 - We gave the Scripture unto Moses, COMPLETE for him who would do good, an explanation of ALL things
    Implication: What Moses was given on Sinai was COMPLETE and had ALL things explained, so no revelations came to any of the Jews to form any part of scripture.

    Quran 7:145 - We wrote for him, UPON THE TABLETS, the lesson to be drawn from ALL things AND THE EXPLANATION OF ALL THINGS
    Implication : The "scripture" that was given to Moses was only that which was written onto stone tablets.

    I am only as far as Sura 17 so I still have some reading to do yet, but so far the implication is that what the Quran calls "Scripture" is that which was WRITTEN down for Moses ONTO STONE TABLETS and NOT anything that was orally recited.  The "Slew the people" text does NOT appear in the Torah (scripture) but only in Mishna (something the Quran does not mention so far).

    So, if an Islam apologist wants to say that God said the "Slew the people" line then they must concede that Mishna (Oral Torah) is part of scripture.  But if they want to say that Mishna is part of scripture then Quran 7:145 is incorrect because God didn't write down an explanation of ALL THINGS on the tablets.

    In Torah - "Aazinu" section it is written "ve et torotay tishmoru ve asitem otam" - "and my Torahs(plural) you shall keep" - means more than one Torah was received.  One written and one oral.

    I also find it interesting to note that in Quran 7:50 it says
    "And when Moses returned unto his people, angry and grieved, he said: Evil is that (course) which ye took after I had left you. Would ye hasten on the judgment of your Lord? AND HE CAST DOWN THE TABLETS".

    Can you imagine the whole written Torah (by Moses) and ALL the Mishnayot (Plural for Mishna) written down on stone tablets?  Would it be possible for a single man to lift them, let alone throw them?  This is wrong because Jews believe Moses received the following on Sinai

    1: Two tablets (with the main commandments on)
    2: The whole 5 Torah books - Bereshit, Shmot, Vaikra, Bamidbar,Dvarim
    3: The Mishna

    So in Judaism Moses threw down 2 tablets, that makes perfect sense (except for the fact that it mentions God  Smiley) - but in the Quran it says that God WROTE DOWN ALL THINGS UPON THE TABLETS - and that Moses was still able to both lift them AND throw them.

    Clearly Muhammad heard that the tablets had the laws written on them and that the written Torah was given to Moses too and made the mistake of thinking that all of it was written on stone tablets.  He then later confused written Torah with Oral Torah and included a phrase from the latter as part of his "written down scripture", plus bastardised it in a horrible way.

    Investigations are fun, it's nice to learn new things!  Does anyone else have anything to contribute based on their knowledge of the Quran?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #130 - February 22, 2010, 05:59 AM

    Ok, so you were trying to offend me... it didn't work.


    I thought he was just trying to point out that personal insults are not really very welcome, and serve no purpose.  Besides, isn't being verbally offensive prohibited by the Quran or something?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #131 - February 22, 2010, 12:09 PM

    Update

    The Talmud is a human narration on the Torah (just like a Tafsir), however it is actually a narration on the Mishna which is the ORAL Torah.  The Jews believed that Moses came down from Sinai with two Torahs - a written one and an oral one.  Their belief is that Moses had revealed to him a written Torah and a Torah which must be orally communicated.

    At some point Rabbis noticed that there were slight variations in the recitals which had come about over the years, for example "one life" / "one soul" so a few of them decided to write them down - this is how a Talmud came about.  When reading a Talmud such as the one I linked to you will see uppercase and mixed case writing.  The mixed case writing is the opinion of the Rabbi who finalised the Talmud, the uppercase text is the text which is believed to have been revealed by God directly to Moses explaining the written Torah.

    So,
    Torah = Written laws
    Mishna = Oral Torah (explaining the Torah - literally means "To study orally")
    Talmud = Mishna written down and commented on.

    What I can see from this is that the "If we slew a single person....." text is in the Mishna, so Jews believe it WAS Gods words.  However, of the 5 Talmuds...
    Talmud Bavli (babylon) - Chapter. 4 Page 3 A
    Talmud Yerushalmi (Jerusalem) - Chapter. 4 Page 5.
    Rambam-Mishne Torah - Hilchot Sanhedrin - Chapter 12.
    Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 37a
    Jerusalem Talmud, Sanhedrin 4:1 (22a)

    Apparently none of them have the exclusion mentioned in the Quran "for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth".  It's a shame that when Muhammad plagiarised such a profoundly beautiful verse he made it ugly.  However, there is more Smiley

    Quran 6:154 - We gave the Scripture unto Moses, COMPLETE for him who would do good, an explanation of ALL things
    Implication: What Moses was given on Sinai was COMPLETE and had ALL things explained, so no revelations came to any of the Jews to form any part of scripture.

    Quran 7:145 - We wrote for him, UPON THE TABLETS, the lesson to be drawn from ALL things AND THE EXPLANATION OF ALL THINGS
    Implication : The "scripture" that was given to Moses was only that which was written onto stone tablets.

    I am only as far as Sura 17 so I still have some reading to do yet, but so far the implication is that what the Quran calls "Scripture" is that which was WRITTEN down for Moses ONTO STONE TABLETS and NOT anything that was orally recited.  The "Slew the people" text does NOT appear in the Torah (scripture) but only in Mishna (something the Quran does not mention so far).

    So, if an Islam apologist wants to say that God said the "Slew the people" line then they must concede that Mishna (Oral Torah) is part of scripture.  But if they want to say that Mishna is part of scripture then Quran 7:145 is incorrect because God didn't write down an explanation of ALL THINGS on the tablets.

    In Torah - "Aazinu" section it is written "ve et torotay tishmoru ve asitem otam" - "and my Torahs(plural) you shall keep" - means more than one Torah was received.  One written and one oral.

    I also find it interesting to note that in Quran 7:50 it says
    "And when Moses returned unto his people, angry and grieved, he said: Evil is that (course) which ye took after I had left you. Would ye hasten on the judgment of your Lord? AND HE CAST DOWN THE TABLETS".

    Can you imagine the whole written Torah (by Moses) and ALL the Mishnayot (Plural for Mishna) written down on stone tablets?  Would it be possible for a single man to lift them, let alone throw them?  This is wrong because Jews believe Moses received the following on Sinai

    1: Two tablets (with the main commandments on)
    2: The whole 5 Torah books - Bereshit, Shmot, Vaikra, Bamidbar,Dvarim
    3: The Mishna

    So in Judaism Moses threw down 2 tablets, that makes perfect sense (except for the fact that it mentions God  Smiley) - but in the Quran it says that God WROTE DOWN ALL THINGS UPON THE TABLETS - and that Moses was still able to both lift them AND throw them.

    Clearly Muhammad heard that the tablets had the laws written on them and that the written Torah was given to Moses too and made the mistake of thinking that all of it was written on stone tablets.  He then later confused written Torah with Oral Torah and included a phrase from the latter as part of his "written down scripture", plus bastardised it in a horrible way.

    Investigations are fun, it's nice to learn new things!  Does anyone else have anything to contribute based on their knowledge of the Quran?


    Awesome  Afro
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #132 - March 06, 2010, 07:38 AM

    I'm lazy, so I'm not gonna read the whole thread, perhaps what I say has already been covered, if so, carry on.

    Abraham Geiger, one of the early leaders of the Jewish Reform movement, wrote a book on it "What Muhammad borrowed from Judaism", posted a link in Hassan's thread on it.

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=5364.msg136637#msg136637

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #133 - March 06, 2010, 07:42 AM

    Update...

    However, your argument can be made to moot. First, orthodox jews consider the oral torah (talmud) came with the written torah, and was passed down along with it. and all the things the rabbis explain, were supposed to have been understood by moses and cohorts. and then the muslim can say whatever differs, is because that shit is corrupted anywayz. Tongue

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #134 - March 06, 2010, 11:34 AM

    My point has evolved :-)

    For the Quran to be right we need
    1: The Mishna to be part of the "scripture"
    2: The entire scripture to be written down on stone

    Now considering the Talmud is 20 volumes, each with around 300 pages of A4 paper, that is going to be a LOT of stone tablets; and Moses was supposed to carry these down the mountain and then throw them down when he saw the Israelites worshipping a golden calf?  I think not  Smiley

    I am going to cover this subject probably as the 2nd in my new youtube series which I think I am going to call "Why people should laugh at Islam"

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
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