Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?

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- Mughal
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Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
OP - September 03, 2020, 02:56 PM

I am of the view that we human beings are still not knowledgeable enough to talk about God, his revelation and creation. I think so because I see people lack knowledge about some very basic things involved in this discussion.

Can anyone explain how many stages of learning there are for a human being to be able to talk about God related things in a sensible way?

Regards and all the best.

I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
- yeezevee
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Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
Reply #1 - September 03, 2020, 07:42 PM

Mughal is well read.. well equipped.. he write.. writes and writes... and that is wonderful., let me phrase Mughal's post as pointer and answer them...
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1). I am of the view that we human beings are still not knowledgeable enough to talk about God, ~~his revelation~~ and creation.

I fully agree with Mughal., Indeed we do not understand anything.. forget god.. we don't even understand grass..... his revelation?? HIS.....HIS...... ?? nah nah.. no revelations., yes there are zillion things we don't understand how they got created ..... but i can assure you dear Mughal ., God's revelations are NOT in BOOKS.. NOT IN THE WORDS FROM HUMAN BEING., but may be individual can see those revelations of god once in while in their lives... but you know look for them..
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2). I think so because I see people lack knowledge about some very basic things involved in this discussion.

Oh again I fully agree with you there., but you can teach the reader about those things .. teaching is the key..
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3). Can anyone explain how many stages of learning there are for a human being to be able to talk about God related things in a sensible way?

well there could be infinite stages of learning.,.. it is a quest for human life to figure out those ways., and individual must have freedom to explore those ways. Certainly bookish way is not the way., it could be a way for some people but that is not for everyone..

with best wishes
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- crumble
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Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
Reply #2 - September 04, 2020, 07:54 PM

Quote from: Mughal on September 03, 2020, 02:56 PM
I am of the view that we human beings are still not knowledgeable enough to talk about God, ~~his revelation and creation.~~

is it consistent to claim insufficient knowledge of something but still assert some of its attributes? seems the equivalent of being definite about your uncertainty - something doesn't add up.
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Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
Reply #3 - September 10, 2020, 12:17 AM

Quote from: yeezevee on September 03, 2020, 07:42 PM
Mughal is well read.. well equipped.. he write.. writes and writes... and that is wonderful., let me phrase Mughal's post as pointer and answer them...I fully agree with Mughal., Indeed we do not understand anything.. forget god.. we don't even understand grass..... his revelation?? HIS.....HIS...... ?? nah nah.. no revelations., yes there are zillion things we don't understand how they got created ..... but i can assure you dear Mughal ., God's revelations are NOT in BOOKS.. NOT IN THE WORDS FROM HUMAN BEING., but may be individual can see those revelations of god once in while in their lives... but you know look for them..Oh again I fully agree with you there., but you can teach the reader about those things .. teaching is the key.. well there could be infinite stages of learning.,.. it is a quest for human life to figure out those ways., and individual must have freedom to explore those ways. Certainly bookish way is not the way., it could be a way for some people but that is not for everyone..

with best wishes
yeezevee

Greetings dear yeezevee, thank you for your reply and kind remarks.

I think we humans need to go through three stages of learning before we could talk about God in a sensible way. Our first stage of learning is all about things we can detect directly with our senses after our birth. All we need to do is observe what things are and what they do and how they do what they do or why they do what they do. This is how we start rationalising things or this is how we start developing our logical thinking about things from the most simple to the most complex. If we do not learn things to this stage we cannot move on to the next stage. The better we are at reasoning the better is our understanding or comprehension of things. In the beginning we can only perform most simple tasks but as we get busy with our learning in time we come to the stage whereby we can perform most complex tasks. Compare mechanism involved in a bike to the mechanisms involved in a car or an aeroplane etc. If we do not understand bike mechanism then we surely cannot understand aeroplane mechanisms. Moreover if we do not understand visible mechanism then we cannot understand invisible mechanisms because for that we need to develop higher level of thinking ability.

Once we have reach first stage of thinking level then comes our second stage of learning which is about things that are not all directly reachable by our senses. Now we try our best to come up with tools or instruments whereby we extend our power of observations or detection. By this stage of knowledge we come to realise the fact that not all that exists is detectable by our senses directly. Here we start calling things visible as well as invisible or detectable as well as undeotectable. In other words we come to know by this stage that some things are accessible by us and others not. Now stage one of our learning comes to our help if had trained ourselves well in logical thinking. In case of first stage if one was using a bike for riding and it broke, it will only need a visible inspection to find fault in it eg if a person was riding a bike and was going along then suddenly the turning of pedals became ineffective then one will try to look at the bike to see what may have gone wrong. As the rider inspects the bike he sees the chain has broken down, one was able to find this fault very easy for two main reasons a)the mechanism was simple and b)the whole mechanism was visible directly. Had it been a tv set which had broken down then the fault finding process will not be that simple. It is because the tv set will have much more complex circuitry and will be involving many more components as well as some totally invisible things as well. So now we will have to be able to reason things out at a much higher level to figure out the fault. We will have to know functions of components and the involved circuitry as to how exactly these components etc make a tv set work the way it works so what could cause the fault that has developed in the tv set. Once we have reached this stage of learning then we need to go to yet higher stage of learning when we have to deal with things that are totally undetectable with our senses or even with any tool or instrument.

Unless one has reached stage one of thinking level one cannot go to stage two of learning and likewise if one has not mastered stage two of thinking level then one cannot go for stage three of thinking level. Stage one is about directly detectable or sensible things but stage two involves some detectable as well as some undetectable things. Stage three however involves things that are not detectable at all by us directly but there effects or affects are made obvious to us through explanation alone. No explanation is a visible object because it is only and only our mental process. This is why to know whether there is a God or not or that the quran is a book from God or not we need to be able to reason things out at stage three level. Unless one is really good at this one cannot know the truth with needed reasonable certainty.

Sorry for delay in my response, but due to getting old I am no longer as fit as I used to be. Nice to have a dialogue with you after so long.

Regards and all the best.

I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.

Reply #4 - September 10, 2020, 02:11 PM

my goodness gracious .. I knew it.. what a response from Mughal., it is always educational ., but let me hide unimportant part of his post under the code and respond to the important points...

Quote from: Mughal on September 10, 2020, 12:17 AM

1). Greetings dear yeezevee, thank you for your reply and kind remarks.

I think we humans need to go through three stages of learning before we could talk about God in a sensible way. Our first stage of learning is all about things we can detect directly with our senses after our birth. All we need to do is observe what things are and what they do and how they do what they do or why they do what they do. This is how we start rationalising things or this is how we start developing our logical thinking about things from the most simple to the most complex. If we do not learn things to this stage we cannot move on to the next stage. The better we are at reasoning the better is our understanding or comprehension of things. In the beginning we can only perform most simple tasks but as we get busy with our learning in time we come to the stage whereby we can perform most complex tasks. Compare mechanism involved in a bike to the mechanisms involved in a car or an aeroplane etc. If we do not understand bike mechanism then we surely cannot understand aeroplane mechanisms. Moreover if we do not understand visible mechanism then we cannot understand invisible mechanisms because for that we need to develop higher level of thinking ability.

Once we have reach first stage of thinking level then comes our second stage of learning which is about things that are not all directly reachable by our senses. Now we try our best to come up with tools or instruments whereby we extend our power of observations or detection. By this stage of knowledge we come to realise the fact that not all that exists is detectable by our senses directly. Here we start calling things visible as well as invisible or detectable as well as undeotectable. In other words we come to know by this stage that some things are accessible by us and others not. Now stage one of our learning comes to our help if had trained ourselves well in logical thinking. In case of first stage if one was using a bike for riding and it broke, it will only need a visible inspection to find fault in it eg if a person was riding a bike and was going along then suddenly the turning of pedals became ineffective then one will try to look at the bike to see what may have gone wrong. As the rider inspects the bike he sees the chain has broken down, one was able to find this fault very easy for two main reasons a)the mechanism was simple and b)the whole mechanism was visible directly. Had it been a tv set which had broken down then the fault finding process will not be that simple. It is because the tv set will have much more complex circuitry and will be involving many more components as well as some totally invisible things as well. So now we will have to be able to reason things out at a much higher level to figure out the fault. We will have to know functions of components and the involved circuitry as to how exactly these components etc make a tv set work the way it works so what could cause the fault that has developed in the tv set. Once we have reached this stage of learning then we need to go to yet higher stage of learning when we have to deal with things that are totally undetectable with our senses or even with any tool or instrument.

Unless one has reached stage one of thinking level one cannot go to stage two of learning and likewise if one has not mastered stage two of thinking level then one cannot go for stage three of thinking level. Stage one is about directly detectable or sensible things but stage two involves some detectable as well as some undetectable things. Stage three however involves things that are not detectable at all by us directly but there effects or affects are made obvious to us through explanation alone. No explanation is a visible object because it is only and only our mental process. This is why to know whether there is a God or not or that the quran is a book from God or not we need to be able to reason things out at stage three level. Unless one is really good at this one cannot know the truth with needed reasonable certainty.

2). ~~Sorry~~ for delay in my response, but due to getting old I am no longer as fit as I used to be. Nice to have a dialogue with you after so long.

Regards and all the best.

please DO NOT SAY SORRY., and we are all getting old.. do you remember when I said "Greetings Mughal for the first time?? THAT WAS 20 years ago in that Faith Freedom International forum.... Cheesy

., and I see you are still actively posting there., So why are you not posting here??

And no one will get younger .. well ... arrow of time for a given life of any species goes only one direction.... we should not worry about that.. do what we can do with in the time we live...

as far as your rest of the post is concerned,, there is so much on the plate .. I am still eating those first few lines of your unimportant part of the post

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1). I think we humans need to go through three stages of learning before we could talk about God in a sensible way.

2). Our first stage of learning is all about things we can detect directly with our senses after our birth

well Not sure about the point one.. Why only three stages? and I don't think I have crossed the first stage .... any ways., rest I will read through critically and respond to your post..

with best wishes
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything

I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim

- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
- offline
Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
Reply #5 - September 11, 2020, 08:24 AM

So back to Mughal's post... my goodness .. I was causally checking web and I get "Mughal and yeezevee" all over..
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http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=15894&start=120
https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8853.0
http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?p=187346
http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=15839&start=100
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I accept the quran is work of God because it is not possible for humanity to produce a book like the quran. It will become obvious even for thinking atheists if I have the time and health to complete my work on the quran. Even if I do not it will guide interested others to carry on research where I leave. Well the my hope anyway but who knows.

that is from Mughal in one of his responses

old times nostalgia memories.... well yes,, we are all getting old... but that is OK., that is the way life supposed to go...So back to Mughal's question..
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Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?

well for that we need to define those words first ..
1).. God, 2). revelation 3). creation .. any way Mughal says in that unimportant part of his post ..
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I think we humans need to go through three stages of learning before we could talk about God in a sensible way.

well as I said we can have infinite number of stages of learning ... but that is ok ,, we can have three major stages and then many sub-stages under those three
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Our first stage of learning is all about things we can detect directly with our senses after our birth. All we need to do is observe what things are and what they do and how they do what they do or why they do what they do. This is how we start rationalising things or this is how we start developing our logical thinking about things from the most simple to the most complex. If we do not learn things to this stage we cannot move on to the next stage. The better we are at reasoning the better is our understanding or comprehension of things. In the beginning we can only perform most simple tasks but as we get busy with our learning in time we come to the stage whereby we can perform most complex tasks.

that is fine as a first basic step in the life of a child I agree with that Mughal..
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Compare mechanism involved in a bike to the mechanisms involved in a car or an aeroplane etc. If we do not understand bike mechanism then we surely cannot understand aeroplane mechanisms

.
that is OK .. both are different transport devices that use mechanical assembly and they can use biological/chemical/electrical/ or atomic energy to propel the device forward against some friction..
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Moreover if we do not understand visible mechanism then we cannot understand invisible mechanisms because for that we need to develop higher level of thinking ability.

In this 21st century with internet on finger tips., we understand the visible mechanisms of many mechanical/electrical/biological devices of the planet we live in far far better than what cave dwellers/story tellers/song sonnet writers of the past that lived some 1000s of years ago..

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Once we have reach first stage of thinking level then comes our second stage of learning which is about things that are not all directly reachable by our senses.

that is OK.. I agree with that ... we can have some more sub-stages under that 2nd stage ..
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Now we try our best to come up with tools or instruments whereby we extend our power of observations or detection. By this stage of knowledge we come to realise the fact that not all that exists is detectable by our senses directly. Here we start calling things visible as well as invisible or detectable as well as undeotectable. In other words we come to know by this stage that some things are accessible by us and others not. Now stage one of our learning comes to our help if had trained ourselves well in logical thinking. In case of first stage if one was using a bike for riding and it broke, it will only need a visible inspection to find fault in it eg if a person was riding a bike and was going along then suddenly the turning of pedals became ineffective then one will try to look at the bike to see what may have gone wrong. As the rider inspects the bike he sees the chain has broken down, one was able to find this fault very easy for two main reasons a)the mechanism was simple and b)the whole mechanism was visible directly. Had it been a tv set which had broken down then the fault finding process will not be that simple. It is because the tv set will have much more complex circuitry and will be involving many more components as well as some totally invisible things as well. So now we will have to be able to reason things out at a much higher level to figure out the fault. We will have to know functions of components and the involved circuitry as to how exactly these components etc make a tv set work the way it works so what could cause the fault that has developed in the tv set. Once we have reached this stage of learning then we need to go to yet higher stage of learning when we have to deal with things that are totally undetectable with our senses or even with any tool or instrument.

dear Mughal I fully understand your point of the existence of invisible world to our senses ., I worked with Synchrotron light sources where one uses invisible waves to probe structures of biological molecules at atomic lengths........ and I fully agree with you on the basic premises of your post that ., we must keep options open to explore the vast invisible world that lives around us and far way from us in this universe
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Unless one has reached stage one of thinking level one cannot go to stage two of learning and likewise if one has not mastered stage two of thinking level then one cannot go for stage three of thinking level. Stage one is about directly detectable or sensible things but stage two involves some detectable as well as some undetectable things. Stage three however involves things that are not detectable at all by us directly but there effects or affects are made obvious to us through explanation alone

. that is fine ... I agree with you there and we can have more sub-stages under that stage 3., but what you wrote below is a problem
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No explanation is a visible object because it is only and only our mental process.

yes ....indeed it is mental......... mental process .. so let us keep that mental process open for all times for those people who can explore using their individual mental abilities .. let us not lock it out to a book by using physical, emotional, political forces....

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This is why to know whether there is a God or not or that the quran is a book from God or not we need to be able to reason things out at stage three level. Unless one is really good at this one cannot know the truth with needed reasonable certainty.

And I fully agree with you on that "to reason, to debate, to discuss" ...... things... and also we must lean to differentiate .. god. or inquiring about god from book/s written by some guys as word of god...

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https://archive.org/details/EnglishTranslationOfTheQuran

https://archive.org/download/EnglishTranslationOfTheQuran

and let us continue on the subject and those links and many many of your posts tells me the level of patience you have in life dear Mughal

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- Mughal
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
Reply #6 - September 13, 2020, 02:19 PM

Quote from: crumble on September 04, 2020, 07:54 PM
is it consistent to claim insufficient knowledge of something but still assert some of its attributes? seems the equivalent of being definite about your uncertainty - something doesn't add up.

Dear crumble, it is an observable reality that we human beings are born knowing absolutely nothing at all and no matter what we can only learn so much beyond which we cannot go. In other words there is a limit as to how far we can learn things. No human being can tell us names of all the kinds of plants for example let alone all kinds of things. Our universe is full of so many different kinds of things. We cannot know each and everything in all its detail. It is not possible for us. nonetheless it does not mean we cannot know anything at all about things. Why we are the way we are in respect of learning knowledge will hopefully become clear as this thread progresses. After all we are all on a journey of discovery.

regards and all the best.

I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
- Mughal
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
Reply #7 - September 13, 2020, 02:26 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on September 11, 2020, 08:24 AM
So back to Mughal's post... my goodness .. I was causally checking web and I get "Mughal and yeezevee" all over.. that is from Mughal in one of his responses

old times nostalgia memories.... well yes,, we are all getting old... but that is OK., that is the way life supposed to go...So back to Mughal's question..well for that we need to define those words first ..
1).. God, 2). revelation 3). creation .. any way Mughal says in that unimportant part of his post ..well as I said we can have infinite number of stages of learning ... but that is ok ,, we can have three major stages and then many sub-stages under those three that is fine as a first basic step in the life of a child I agree with that Mughal...
that is OK .. both are different transport devices that use mechanical assembly and they can use biological/chemical/electrical/ or atomic energy to propel the device forward against some friction..In this 21st century with internet on finger tips., we understand the visible mechanisms of many mechanical/electrical/biological devices of the planet we live in far far better than what cave dwellers/story tellers/song sonnet writers of the past that lived some 1000s of years ago..
that is OK.. I agree with that ... we can have some more sub-stages under that 2nd stage ..dear Mughal I fully understand your point of the existence of invisible world to our senses ., I worked with Synchrotron light sources where one uses invisible waves to probe structures of biological molecules at atomic lengths........ and I fully agree with you on the basic premises of your post that ., we must keep options open to explore the vast invisible world that lives around us and far way from us in this universe . that is fine ... I agree with you there and we can have more sub-stages under that stage 3., but what you wrote below is a problemyes ....indeed it is mental......... mental process .. so let us keep that mental process open for all times for those people who can explore using their individual mental abilities .. let us not lock it out to a book by using physical, emotional, political forces....
And I fully agree with you on that "to reason, to debate, to discuss" ...... things... and also we must lean to differentiate .. god. or inquiring about god from book/s written by some guys as word of god...

and let us continue on the subject and those links and many many of your posts tells me the level of patience you have in life dear Mughal

Thanks for your response dear yeezevee. Although for the time being things are not going to make much sense because I am trying to explain different things for what my objective is so kindly bear with me but please do comment as you see fit. Hopefully things will become clear later on when we will discuss what I hope to discuss ie God, quran and islam.

regards and all the best.

I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
- offline
Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
Reply #8 - September 14, 2020, 11:26 AM

Quote from: Mughal on September 13, 2020, 02:26 PM
Thanks for your response dear yeezevee. Although for the time being things are not going to make much sense because I am trying to explain different things for what my objective is so kindly bear with me but please do comment as you see fit.

dear Mughal I may not agree with everything you write but I always read your posts ...indeed it is pleasure reading your thoughts.. specially on Quran.,
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Hopefully things will become clear later on when we will discuss what I hope to discuss ie God, quran and islam.

regards and all the best.

let us keep that hope alive and let us keep working on it., by the way I remember you translating Quran your own way and your own understanding of Quran., Did you publish that as a book?? I guess for some reason I remember reading it on Jang English version of it at https://www.thenews.com.pk/.... do you still have it on web??..

with best wishes
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- Mughal
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
Reply #9 - September 17, 2020, 04:35 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on September 14, 2020, 11:26 AM
dear Mughal I may not agree with everything you write but I always read your posts ...indeed it is pleasure reading your thoughts.. specially on Quran., let us keep that hope alive and let us keep working on it., by the way I remember you translating Quran your own way and your own understanding of Quran., Did you publish that as a book?? I guess for some reason I remember reading it on Jang English version of it at https://www.thenews.com.pk/.... do you still have it on web??..

with best wishes
yeezevee

Dear yeezevee, yes, I am still busy with interpretation of the quran. This is why I am trying to explain things the way I understand them. During my study of the quran I realised that there are some aspects implications of which we human beings have not yet realised for proper understanding of the quran. We have been side tracked by each other instead of taking aboard some very basic but vitally important points. This is the reason I started this thread the way I did. It is because we need to be clear about some things before we actually discuss the quran.

Atheism is having a go at the religion which I see as a good thing because it brings theists out of their depth and helps to drag them towards rationality so that they could become rational thinkers and give up the nonsense called religion. I myself am anti religion because it is very damaging for humanity in various ways. It does not bring people to God but leads them away from God into utter confusion and perplexity or puzzlement. Religion in my view is therefore a most dangerous thing for humanity, in fact more dangerous than atheism. It is because religion keeps people foolish or worse stupid or ignorant and illiterate. This I hope will become clear as we develop this discussion and I explain more and more things.

My other point is against atheism ie to me God of the gaps is more appealing and better way to tackle this issue than no God approach till we come across God. Why? Because no God approach is also very dangerous for humanity to take as it has most serious consequences for humanity as we have been experiencing directly or indirectly all along throughout our lives ie Godless human society is a dangerous society by its very nature in my view based upon our life experiences. This is why to me there is a God unless we can prove otherwise. Why?

It is because our main question to ourselves is, how did all that exists come about? Was it always there or was it brought into existence by a creator? In this regard a question arises, could non-existing things come about out of absolute nothingness? Or could zero ever equal one and vice versa? My answer is never. I mean nothing can come into existence out of absolute nothingness. This means either there is a creator or that all that exists is ever existing. Now ever existence of anything has its own implications eg whatever is ever existing remains the way it is and it cannot change in its nature because a thing can only change in its nature if some other outside force acts upon it. Since there is no other force there to begin with then ever existing thing cannot change in its nature therefore it must remain as it is or as it ever was.

Since whatever exists before our eyes is always changing with time that means someone is causing it to change otherwise it could not change. This means whatever exists and is changing is not ever existing rather it was created by one who does not change. This means the universe was created by a God.

Scientists say the creator has to be something simple so God is far too complex a being to be considered as a creator. I disagree. In my view the very existence of something simple is impossible. Why? Because to be simple and be ever existing both contradict each other. After all what did not exist could never come into existence. If something is ever existing then ever existence is not a simple thing. Moreover even for argument sake if we accept there is such a thing as simple then it will remain as it was forever. So it could not create the creation. To create the kind of creation we observe, it had to be at least as complex as the creation it has created by implication. Therefore It ought to be knowledgeable and it ought to be able choose and decide things etc etc. So the idea that God is far too complex being for start of creation is proven completely wrong.

This means we have a God and we have his creation because otherwise nothing could exist to begin with. So those who claim there is no God and all that exists came into being all by itself seem to be totally wrong. They have no basis to stand upon.

regards and all the best.

I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
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Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
Reply #10 - September 18, 2020, 02:07 PM

Mughal is a fantastic story teller with the patience that rivals no one.. .. glad to read your response dear Mughal., and please do not stop writing.. but here i am going to make your response in to different parts as you are clubbing entirely different subjects in to one post and and so i will separate the subjects here and respond to each of them individually in the post

Quote from: Mughal on September 17, 2020, 04:35 PM
1)....... Dear yeezevee, yes, I am still busy with interpretation of the quran. This is why I am trying to explain things the way I understand them. During my study of the quran I realized that there are some aspects implications of which we human beings have not yet realized for proper understanding of the quran. We have been side tracked by each other instead of taking aboard some very basic but vitally important points. This is the reason I started this thread the way I did. It is because we need to be clear about some things before we actually discuss the quran..

I was under the impression ((in fact I remember reading it in FFI)) you have your own version of Quran translation of interpretation and I agree with you ,, Quran indeed is a very unique book .. A superficial .casual reading of it will not help the reader to understand the mind set of Quran writers and composers ., the other serious problem is translators adding their own style which often add confusion to the reader , on who is saying what and to whom as the book is written in some sort of discussion/debate/drama style.. and i fully agree with those highlighted words of yours ., although it side tracks the discussion from Quran to some other topics..

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2)........Atheism is having a go at the religion which I see as a good thing because it brings theists out of their depth and helps to drag them towards rationality so that they could become rational thinkers and give up the nonsense called religion. I myself am anti religion because it is very damaging for humanity in various ways. It does not bring people to God but leads them away from God into utter confusion and perplexity or puzzlement. ~~Religion in my view is therefore a most dangerous thing for humanity, in fact more dangerous than atheism. It is because religion keeps people foolish or worse stupid or ignorant and illiterate.~~ This I hope will become clear as we develop this discussion and I explain more and more things.

I fully agree with you there ..indeed this God of Human brain or God of universe .. OR THE GENTLE MAN WHO CREATED THIS UNIVERSE is different from the god described in every faith/religious book/s

and I disagree with those deleted words of yours .. because that is not true., It appears to be true in the case of those faiths whose followers WILL NOT ALLOW. and WILL NOT GIVE FREEDOM TO PEOPLE TO QUESTION WHAT IS THERE IN THEIR RESPECTIVE FAITH BOOKS/.PRECHINGS

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3)..............My other point is against atheism ie to me God of the gaps is more appealing and better way to tackle this issue than no God approach till we come across God. Why? Because no God approach is also very dangerous for humanity to take as it has most serious consequences for humanity as we have been experiencing directly or indirectly all along throughout our lives ie Godless human society is a dangerous society by its very nature in my view based upon our life experiences. This is why to me there is a God unless we can prove otherwise. Why?

Well If "NO GOD " idea followers make their idea unquestionable then they are as good as faith heads ,, it is just they are "NO GOD" IDEA FAITH HEADS. and unquestionable faiths and yes the faith heads that follow these unquestionable faiths are sometimes dangerous to the society ..

and yes you are right in saying "God of the gaps is more appealing and better way" because it gives freedom to people to explore those gaps and i tell you there are millions and millions of those gaps ...
Quote
4)........... It is because our main question to ourselves is, how did all that exists come about? Was it always there or was it brought into existence by a creator? In this regard a question arises, could non-existing things come about out of absolute nothingness? Or could zero ever equal one and vice versa? My answer is never. I mean nothing can come into existence out of absolute nothingness. This means either there is a creator or that all that exists is ever existing. Now ever existence of anything has its own implications eg whatever is ever existing remains the way it is and it cannot change in its nature because a thing can only change in its nature if some other outside force acts upon it. Since there is no other force there to begin with then ever existing thing cannot change in its nature therefore it must remain as it is or as it ever was.

that is entirely different subject from Quran/god/religions/ faiths/faith heads dear Mughal. it is best to deal with it independent of faiths and faith books as it is nothing to do with Quran/god/religions/ faiths/faith heads ...

Quote
5)..........Since whatever exists before our eyes is always changing with time that means someone is causing it to change otherwise it could not change. This means whatever exists and is changing is not ever existing rather it was created by one who does not change. This means the universe was created by a God.

Nope I completely disagree with you there.., that statement of yours "whatever exists before our eyes is always changing with time" is very ill defined and without that time span number it is meaningless .

, .. Time and time scale is huge subject from say .............shortest time a physicist use in their calculations.. that is Planck time .... ((Planck time is the time light takes to travel one Planck length. Theoretically, this is the smallest time measurement that will ever be possible)) to Astronomical time scale say some 14 billion years or so,,

Your point on . "CHANGE in front of your eyes" is irrelevant and meaningless with reference to vast times scales we are dealing with from (10) to the power of -24 seconds to (10) to the power of +24 seconds., please watch this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRtLXagrMHw

That i casually pulled it out of KhanAcademy

Quote
6).......Scientists say the creator has to be something simple so God is far too complex a being to be considered as a creator. I disagree. In my view the very existence of something simple is impossible. Why? Because to be simple and be ever existing both contradict each other. After all what did not exist could never come into existence. If something is ever existing then ever existence is not a simple thing. Moreover even for argument sake if we accept there is such a thing as simple then it will remain as it was forever. So it could not create the creation. To create the kind of creation we observe, it had to be at least as complex as the creation it has created by implication. Therefore It ought to be knowledgeable and it ought to be able choose and decide things etc etc. So the idea that God is far too complex being for start of creation is proven completely wrong.

This means we have a God and we have his creation because otherwise nothing could exist to begin with. So those who claim there is no God and all that exists came into being all by itself seem to be totally wrong. They have no basis to stand upon.

I have to respond to your post in parts because a flat response from me will make a looooong and and a unreadable post..

Your point 6 is drifting faraway from the book Quran.. or other faith books...... faiths ...... faith heads .. God, revelation and creation etc..., etc... that too it is filled with unproven assumptions and fallacies dear Mughal and I understand the problem that subject is very complex hence assumptions and gedanken experiments are necessary

*****

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- yeezevee
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Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
Reply #11 - September 24, 2020, 09:40 AM

well on these QUESTIONS AND WORDS from Mughal's post
Quote from: Mughal on September 17, 2020, 04:35 PM
how did all that exists come about?
Was it always there or was it brought into existence by a creator?
could non-existing things come about out of absolute nothingness?
Or could zero ever equal one and vice versa?
..........time ..........
...........the universe ................
...........Scientists .................
.............creation ................

let me add some tube links... that are relevant to what Mughal' saying on "TIME:"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TiQidGPHA4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAScJvxCy2Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWo5SnrrOU4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IN1KJ8LYW3U

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- Mughal
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
Reply #12 - September 25, 2020, 07:33 PM

Thanks dear yeezevee for your kind responses. While you are going to carry on with things your way I will carry on clarifying my point of view regarding things. As I explained already, things are not going to make sense yet because I am first going to explain some important or key points and then I will try and put them in the context. Till then I will try and continue. In short I am trying to explain the reasons why humanity has failed very badly in understanding the quran properly.

regards and all the best.

I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
- Mughal
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
Reply #13 - September 25, 2020, 07:34 PM

My next problem is with people who say there is no scientific knowledge in the quran. This in my view is result of their lack of awareness or realisation of the fact that people do not have knowledge of the future ie people cannot know future till it comes to pass. In other words we human beings cannot know things we must come to know till our time has come for knowing those things.

Let me try and explain this issue by way of an example. Let us suppose we have a newly born baby and all his relatives have phds in various fields of knowledge. Can they teach all that they know to that new born baby at once? No, they cannot. Why not? It is because we humans are created by God to grow or evolve with time both psychologically as well as biologically so we cannot learn anything at all till our time has come to learn it. So people even to memorise a message need ample time let alone its proper understanding. People are born knowing absolutely nothing. They need to start learning things by direct experience of things and this is where science starts from because without direct interactions with things we could not learn or know anything at all in our lives. It is because as I explained already in my very first post our brains can only understand things by way of explanations of things alone. In other words explanations arise in our minds by thinking or reasoning after observation of things. The question is what are we doing when we say we are reasoning? We try to connect dots in our minds about things we are thinking about. As explained already in my first post we learn how to make links or connections between things just as we learned right from the start by looking at nature as to how things are interconnected.

This is how we use a mental process called deductive reasoning. This is why my first post is very important for people to try and understand. This is why people who have not yet learned to be rational at the very basic level they cannot understand the quran either because the quran is a book for people who have reached the highest stage or level of understanding things rationally. It is because people who have translated and interpreted the quran they have not reached that level therefore they have turned the message in the quran into a nonsense in their translations or interpretations.

This is why in my view we cannot have any proper interpretation of the quran till we reach the level of knowledge that is required for interpreting the quran properly. The quran talks about all things essential for knowledge of humanity for bringing about a proper human community in the kingdom of God. They cannot do so till they learn the quran as it ought to be learned. A scripture from God had to be such that was sensible or rational so irrational people till they become rationally solid could never interpret it correctly. One has to think about how many people we have in this world who have attained to three levels of understanding things I have explained. In this world as far as I see it, a lot of people are ignorant, illiterate, uneducated, untrained or unskilled or inexperienced in thinking or reasoning things properly so they are superstitious who believe anything and everything without being able to reason things out properly. In short they have not learned the sense of making proper sense of things.

Besides being able to put two and two together we humans have a huge problem with human language. Very few of us have ability to know and use our mother tongue as effectively as it ought to be used. Our vocabularies are very limited this is why we cannot express ourselves to each other properly. We can see a dictionary has say 100 thousand words but how many of them we can truly spell correctly or know their meanings or proper uses? Then how many of us know how human languages came about and developed? Why is this vitally important to know? It is because our use of language is very different from God's use of language. Why it is different? It is because God already knows all there is to know about any and everything but we humans don't. Why not? Because it takes time for us to discover or learn things as already explained. For example, when we use a word for naming something, we do not necessary know anything much about the thing we name but God does in all its detail. For example, we named a thing, human being, but what do we really know about this creature we call a human? So far very little. Had God told us things about human beings, could we therefore understand them? No, I just gave example of a baby with phd relatives. We will still need time to grow and make sense of things by ourselves at our own pace of learning through direct interacting with things. So our level of knowledge is no where near level of knowledge of God. It can never be. Moreover God did not reveal his message to reinforce the nonsense we already have gathered in our heads but to teach us something very different because he had a purpose in his mind for creating us human beings and all the rest of things we see all around us or not see yet because they are hidden from us or are beyond our reach. This is why he revealed his message to tell us what his purpose was and what part in his scheme of things we need to play in order to fulfil that purpose. This is why he told us how to live or what to do and how to do it so that we could fulfil the purpose for which God has created us. This is why knowing the quran properly is absolutely necessary for us as it ought to be known but it cannot be known unless we come to know its related real world realities first. In other words we must first go through our learning stages as explained already before we the people could make any real sense of the quran.

Coming to human languages, in our human languages words have multiple meanings, the question is how can we come to know what meaning is meant by God for a word when we try to understand or make sense of message of God? This is where in comes the idea of context. This is why the quran cannot be understood unless we first try to read it to discover its proper context. This is why anyone who criticises the text of the quran must first learn a lot of vitally important things before one could say anything and everything about the quran properly. Just knowing a particular language is not enough to interpret the quran, this is why even arabs are as confused as nonarabs when it comes to proper understanding of the quran. Arabs do not know how to understand the quran properly. Why not? Because they are as dumb about things I am talking about and going to talk about as any other people in the world. Just by reading a book we cannot understand things it talks about till we also learn properly about its related things and understand them, so that we could make sense of the book. That is where proper understanding comes from. You cannot be a good politician just by reading a book about politics or for that matter any other book about anything else eg economics or engineering or medicine or law or even a cooking book etc etc. Let me explain it by way of an example. Suppose you tell a baby, make me a cup of tea. What do you think the baby needs to know before he could make you a cup of tea? Can you see where I am getting at? Likewise if we do not learn about things we need to know for proper understanding of the quranic message then we cannot understand the quran properly. This is why people spend a good several years in learning some professions or trades. This is why to specialise in understanding of the quran properly one has to do vitally needed homework.

Coming back to origin and develop of human language, why knowing its origin and development is vitally important for us? It is because only and only then we can know the mechanism involved in origin of words and their meanings or how words came about and how they got their meanings. This is how we can come to know why words have the meaning they have. Once we know the mechanism then we will never be able to dispute with one another as to how many different meanings the very same word can have in a human language and why nor how many different words actually have the very same meaning as well. It will first confuse us very much when we will become aware of the fact that a word can have thousands of meanings and that thousands of words can be used for expressing the very same meaning. It is this very reason that forced me to try to write a special dictionary for this purpose. A type of dictionary that no one has bothered to write yet.

Vocabulary is necessary for two reasons a)for expressing our own thoughts to others because the better command we have on language the better we are able to express ourselves to others so that others could get what we mean by saying something b) for understanding others ie the better we can sense what others are saying or telling us the better we will be able to understand their intentions as to what they mean by saying what they have said. Language is basically about naming things so that we could know what or who we are talking about. It is about their descriptions or what they do or why they do what they do or how they do what they do or where they do what they do or when they do what they do etc etc. Not only that we learn about how things are positioned relative to each other or how they are related to each other. Moreover we need to get things together at times and separate them at other times etc etc. So human language is no doubt a very complex thing to make sense of. This is why people spend years in mastering it just regarding its use.

Some times we see things are so simple but at other times so complex eg if we look at maths or things, we are always either putting things together or busy separating them depending upon how they suit us or serve our purposes. This is what all sciences and all life is about ie to deconstruct what is naturally there and reconstruct it the way it serves our purposes. Take a tree for example, we chop it up and make lovely things out of its wood. Same we do with the earth and all it contains. All because we observed the natural world and found out what nature does and how it does it so we put that into practice and make things the way they suit us. Problem only arises when we do things our way in such a way that we become a terrible problem for each other in this world. This is where in comes the need for guidance from God our creator and provider of all things for our living so that we could have a purposeful great life in this world as well as in hereafter.

This hopefully is going to be continued

I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.

Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?

Reply #14 - September 28, 2020, 01:03 PM

Quote from: Mughal on September 25, 2020, 07:33 PM

Thanks dear yeezevee for your kind responses.

............... In short I am trying to explain the reasons why humanity has failed very badly in understanding the quran properly.

regards and all the best.

Quote from: Mughal on September 25, 2020, 07:34 PM

My next problem is with people who say there is no scientific knowledge in the quran. This in my view is result of their lack of awareness or realisation of the fact that people do not have knowledge of the future ie people cannot know future till it comes to pass. In other words we human beings cannot know things we must come to know till our time has come for knowing those things.

Let me try and explain this issue by way of an example. Let us suppose we have a newly born baby and all his relatives have phds in various fields of knowledge. Can they teach all that they know to that new born baby at once? No, they cannot. Why not? It is because we humans are created by God to grow or evolve with time both psychologically as well as biologically so we cannot learn anything at all till our time has come to learn it. So people even to memorise a message need ample time let alone its proper understanding. People are born knowing absolutely nothing. They need to start learning things by direct experience of things and this is where science starts from because without direct interactions with things we could not learn or know anything at all in our lives. It is because as I explained already in my very post our brains can only understand things by way of explanations of things alone. In other words explanations arise by thinking after observation of things and then only and only by deduction process when it comes to thinking at highest level. This is why my first post is very important for people to try and understand. This is why people who have not yet learned to be rational at the very basic level they cannot understand the quran either because the quran is a book for people who have reached the highest stage or level of understanding things rationally. It is because people who have translated and interpreted the quran they have not reached that level therefore they have turned the message of the quran into a nonsense in their translations and interpretations.

This is why in my view we cannot have any proper interpretation of the quran till we reach the level of knowledge that is required for interpreting the quran properly. The quran talks about all things essential for knowledge of humanity for bringing about a proper human community in the kingdom of God. They cannot do so till they learn the quran as it ought to be learned. A scripture from God had to be such that was sensible or rational so irrational people till they become rationally solid could never interpret it correctly. One has to think about how many people we have in this world that have attained to three levels of knowledge I have explained. In this world as far as I see it, a lot of people are superstitious who believe anything and everything without being able to reason things out properly.

Besides being able to put two and two together we have a huge problem with human language. Very few of us have ability to know and use our mother tongue. Our vocabularies are very limited. We can see a dictionary has say 100 thousand words but how many of them we can truly spell correctly or know their meanings or proper uses? Then how many of us know how human languages came about and developed? Why is this vitally important to know? It is because our use of language is very different from God's use of language. Why it is different? It is because God already knows all there is to know about any and everything but we humans don't. Why not? Because it takes time for us to learn things as already explained. For example, when we use a word for naming something, we do not necessary know anything much about the thing but God does in all its detail. For example, we named a thing, human being, but what do we really know about this creature? So far very little. Had God told us things about human beings, could we understand them? No, I just gave example of a baby with phd relatives. We will still need time to make sense of things by ourselves at our own pace of learning through direct interacting with things. So our level of knowledge is no where near level of knowledge of God. It can never be. Moreover God did not reveal his message to reinforce the nonsense we have already gathered in our heads but to teach us something very different because he had a purpose in his mind for creating us human beings and all the rest we see or not see yet. This is why he revealed his message to tell us what his purpose was and what part in his scheme of things we need to play in order to fulfil that purpose. This is why he told us how to live or what to do or how to do it so that we could fulfil the purpose for which God has created us. This is why knowing the quran properly is absolutely necessary as it ought to be known but it cannot be known unless we come to know its related real world realities first. In other words we must first go through our learning stages explained already before people can make any real sense of the quran.

In our human languages words have multiple meanings, the question is how can we come to know what meaning is meant by God when we try to understand or make sense of message of God? This is where in comes the idea of context. This is why the quran cannot be understood unless we first try to read it to discover its proper context. This is why anyone who criticises the text of the quran must first learn a lot of vitally important things before one says anything and everything about the quran. Just knowing a particular language is not enough to interpret the quran, this is why even arabs are as confused as nonarabs when it comes to proper understanding of the quran. Arabs do not know how to understand the quran properly. Why not? Because they are as dumb about things I am talking about as any other people in the world. Just by reading a book we cannot understand things it talks about till we learn the things involved ourselves properly so taht we could make sense of the book. That is where understanding comes from. You cannot be a good politician just by reading a book about politics or for that matter any other book about anything else eg economics or engineering or medicine or law or even a cooking book etc etc. This is why people spend a good several years in learning some professions or trades. This is why to specialise in understanding of the quran properly one has to do some homework.

Coming back to origin and develop of human language, why knowing its origin and development is vitally important for us? It is because only and only then we can know the mechanism involved in origin of words and their meanings or how words came about and how they got their meanings. This is how we can come to know why words have the meaning they have. Once we know the mechanism then we will never be able to dispute with one another as to how many different meanings the very same word can have in a human language and why nor how many different words actually have the very same meaning as well. It will first confuse us very much when we will become aware of the fact that words can have thousands of meanings and that thousands of words can have the very same meaning as well not just a couple or a few or even several we are used to as we have them in our simple dictionaries. It is this very reason that forced me to try to write a special dictionary for this purpose. A type of dictionary that no one has bothered to write yet.

Vocabulary is necessary for two reasons a)for expressing our own thoughts because the better command we have on language the better we are able to express ourselves b) for understanding others ie the better we can sense what others are saying or telling us the better we will be able to understand their intentions as to what they mean by saying what they have said. Language is basically about naming things so that we could know what or who we are talking about. It is about their descriptions or what they do or why they do what they do or how they do what they do or where they do what they do or when they do what do etc etc. Not only that we learn about how things are positioned relative to or related to each other. Moreover we need to get things together at times and separate them at other times etc etc. So human language is no doubt a very complex thing to make sense of. This is why people spend years in mastering it just regarding its use.

Some times we see things are so simple but at other times so complex eg if we look at maths or things, we are always either putting things together or busy separating them depending upon how they suit us or serve our purposes. This is what all sciences and all life is about ie to deconstruct what is naturally there and reconstruct it the way it serves our purposes. Take a tree for example, we chop it up and make lovely things out of its wood. Same with the earth and all it contains. All because we observed the natural world and found out what nature does and how it does it so we put that into practice and make things the way they suit us. Problem only arises when we do things our way in such a way that we become a terrible problem for each other in this world. This is where in comes the need for guidance from God our creator and provider of all things for our living so that we could have a purposeful great life in this world as well as in hereafter.

This hopefully is going to be continued

dear Mughal you are one of the most patient and kindest person i have ever interacted in discussing Islam and other faiths . As far as your words on "why humanity has failed very badly in understanding the quran properly. " and other wall of text post is concerned ., we have discussed and debated these things before and we can do it again and again

But.. but ., you said these following words during a similar debate some 8 years ago on Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:19 pm

Quote

.........................all translations of the quran are rubbish because they do not tell us what the quran is actually telling us. They do not have this foundation that I am talking about............. ..... Mughal Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:19 pm

that must be the good reason "why humanity has failed very badly in understanding the quran properly. " /., Here I was under the impression that you did translate the Quran in your own way .,

Question is DID YOU PUBLISH IT??., if you did., please give me the link to buy your Quran translation....... your version of Tafsir Quran...... I am sure you have done a thorough job of translating Quran according to your views and your understanding..

with best wishes
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything

I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim

- crumble
- ~ exotic muslim ~
- Pub Regular
- always sunny in hell
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Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
Reply #15 - October 01, 2020, 12:14 PM

Quote from:
In other words we must first go through our learning stages as explained already before we the people could make any real sense of the quran.

only experts in language/history/religion are allowed to have an opinion on a compilation of poetic verses? You write more eloquently than akay but it's still mostly nonsense.
- Mughal
- Ex-Muslim
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Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
Reply #16 - October 01, 2020, 01:55 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on September 28, 2020, 01:03 PM
dear Mughal you are one of the most patient and kindest person i have ever interacted in discussing Islam and other faiths . As far as your words on "why humanity has failed very badly in understanding the quran properly. " and other wall of text post is concerned ., we have discussed and debated these things before and we can do it again and again

But.. but ., you said these following words during a similar debate some 8 years ago on Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:19 pm
that must be the good reason "why humanity has failed very badly in understanding the quran properly. " /., Here I was under the impression that you did translate the Quran in your own way .,

Question is DID YOU PUBLISH IT??., if you did., please give me the link to buy your Quran translation....... your version of Tafsir Quran...... I am sure you have done a thorough job of translating Quran according to your views and your understanding..

with best wishes
yeezevee

Thanks for your kind remarks dear yeezevee, No I have not managed to complete my translation of the quran yet. Reason hopefully will become apparent as I explain things but I am very much hopeful for completing the task undertaken God willing.

Meanwhile regards and all the best.

I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
- Mughal
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
Reply #17 - October 01, 2020, 02:08 PM

Let me now try to go into a bit of detail of the issues I raised for explanations ie the human language and the science in the quran. No doubt the quran is a book of science from the very beginning to the very end but whenever scientists make any discovery we do not see it in the existing interpretations of the quran, why not? It is because interpretations of the quranic text are by human beings and human beings cannot understand things of the future till that future becomes their present or comes to pass. This is why criticising the quranic text instead of understanding the issue involved is not a valid way to go about this issue. The right way to look at the quranic text is to see if the text in the quran remains in line with our solid new discoveries because that is all we can do due to lack of our ability to see into the future or past or even wider present.

It is an indisputable fact that when it comes to our knowledge about the future, all we can do is look at the possibilities and if there is a way whereby the quranic text can be justified in light of our new scientific discoveries then we cannot declare the quranic text invalid. Of course, we can declare any interpretation of the quran by anyone invalid if it fails to justify the quranic text provided we can prove beyond any reasonable doubt that the quranic text is justified by reinterpreting it in light of our new discoveries. The question is how do we do that? We can do that by having the quranic text and a dictionary which has the possible meanings of words used in the quran according to the mechanism whereby words have been interpreted throughout the history of the human language. In short all we need is the quran and a comprehensive dictionary of the quranic words with their possible meanings.

Our existing dictionaries are also very useful because they help us discover the mechanism whereby people used to give new meanings to already existing words for their purposes or uses. So long as people of the past could update their dictionaries by giving the old words new meanings they did not necessarily invent new words. This point about relationship between human language and human progress is vitally important to grasp before one could interpret the quran properly. On this basis the quran is a book of science because it is about a way of life which can ensure progress of humanity at a speed not possible otherwise. I will come to how of this later when I will discuss what is meant by way of life which the quran advises for humanity. This is what forced me to write a new kind of dictionary so that people could to some degree become independent of interpreters of the scriptures. This short explanation solves the conflict which people have in their minds between the quran and the science forever.

Coming to human language, it is of vital importance to know that human language was not there in the begin rather it was invented by human beings themselves as they came about and evolved or progressed with time just as humans have been inventing things through out times and places.

When it comes to the quran, just as we do not know our future so we do not know our past either or for that matter our present at a much wider scale. All we can do is try our best to figure out ways to see if we can get some ideas about our present or past or future etc. This is why we always try to work out ways for knowing things to some degree as far as it is possible for us regardless they are about past, present or future. So the main thing is knowing the ways for being, having, using or doing things. So long as we can know something beyond any reasonable doubt that should be sufficient for living our lives on that basis because it is not possible for humanity to know anything one hundred percent nor everything 100%. This is because we can only trust our minds and senses up to a degree and not 100%. All our knowledge is based upon trial and error method which in turn is based upon suppositions. This is why in learning knowledge we can only go as far as it is practical or possible for us. Beyond that our thinking cannot go because our logic breaks down. This is why we can only know some of the things about God but not the rest.

I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
- Mughal
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
Reply #18 - October 06, 2020, 05:48 AM

Another vitally important thing one must come to know to understand the quran properly is origin and development of human language to some degree. To see why translating or interpreting the quran is so difficult for humanity as a whole. We humans are responsible for interpreting the message of God correctly regardless whatever we claim to be. We have no right to misinterpret the quran deliberately or we can never escape terrible consequences told in the quran for us. The quran is full of warnings to save mankind from terrible painful sufferings. I will explain this point later on when I will start explaining quranic words and their related concepts in detail. Just now I am explaining human language as regard its origin and development asbout the relationship between words and their meanings or the mechanism involved in this process.

Coming to human languages, they all come from the very same original human language. Why? It is because all of us human beings are descendents of the very same original people, so if we came from the original people then we could not have any different original language than the one they used. This is why all our existing languages once we have completed our language family tree will reveal this fact. It is quite possible to retrace languages back to the original mother language. Languages only became different later on when people migrated away from each other and never went back to their ancestral lands. The reason is inventions by humans never ceased with time and as they invented more and more things they had to name them with new words and they had to explain their functionalities etc. This is how human languages became different due to addition of new words and their meanings in different places.

The original human language developed over a very, very long period of time because originally there was very small human population and ideas also came very very slowly to minds of those people but as human population increased and people got more and more ideas they realised they can make sounds as well along with their bodily gestures. People originally made simple gestures which gradually turned into more and more complex gestures just like a human baby does even today and as people gradually turned to sounds they realised they could communicate with each other through sounds as well. Then as they desired to express themselves better and better to each other they got the idea of writing things down in shapes of pictures which were later turned into letters and then much later people became able to read and write as we do today.

People originally only had very simple thinking ability which developed in them over a very long period of time. Once people started thinking more and more and they got better and better they they developed language to express themselves to each other better and better. When they invented words to express their ideas to each other, they tried to express their concept using less number of words just like a baby does today and as time passed they perfected their this idea more and more. This is why original human language expressed a lot of concepts using the very same word and as time passed more and more words were used for expressing the very same concepts. This is why human language is very complex to figure out as to what one is saying unless one is used to living in an environment within a group of people. It is like a mother understands what her baby wants when he cries. She over time realised that when her baby cries he needs her attention because he may be hungry or has wet his nappy or that something is bothering him etc etc. So one can see that just one gesture of crying creates a few possibilities for a mother to figure out as to why the baby is crying. This is the start of understanding human language as to how it came about. It shows how someone makes a body a body or sound gesture and how others make something out of it and try to do something in response. This is why human language uses very same word for many different meanings and many words for the very same meaning.

The alphabet set we use today which contains letters was a set of pictures originally if you like which conveyed some ideas or concepts. We call it alphabet set because this word is made of first two letters of the alphabet set ie ALAF and BAA. In greek alaf was called alpha and baa was called beta. Because languages came from each other so different people made different things of the very same thing. This is what we call different languages. Any human can learn any language within a few years if one tries passionately. So the excuse the quran should be in my own mother tongue is no excuse. The reason is none of us knows even our own mother tongue to the detail the quran requires. The language of the quran is such that each and every human beings needs to learn it right from the beginning. It is because the information the quran contains is vitally important for humanity to know because it teaches mankind what a proper way of life is for humanity to live in this world properly so that it could have the kind of existence it is promised in the quran by God.

Let us now examine the mechanism involved between words and their meanings. Let us talk about letter BAA. It was called BAIT in hebrew and arabic etc. Why because it had something to do with place of living or place of residence. Most people interpret it as house. However, the question is, why it is interpreted as house? It is because it is a place of one's residence. This word alone has very many meanings based upon the reason as to what is meant by a place of residence. It needs a context for its proper understanding as to what one means when one uses it for purpose of place of residence. The place of residence is my address but what is my address? How do I answer this question? It depends on who is asking me this questions and what is the reason for which I need to answer this question. It is part of my identity. Already things are getting complicated, are they not? This shows word bait does not mean house ie a building I am living in for the time being. The place I am living in could be as small as it can be and as large as it can be. Pay attention to what I am saying here because it is vitally important point I am raising for people to realise or become aware of. It is this lack of awareness that makes people interpret the quran very very wrongly. My place of living is a room in which I am living or a house in which I am living. My place of living is the village in which I am living, My place of living could the town or city or country in which I am living or even the world in which I am living etc etc. The context will decide what is meant by word bait not just the word because the word can have so many different meanings for various reasons. For example, a house is a secure place wherein I feel safe. It is my shelter or my protection or sanctuary or asylum or orphanage or safe haven. Because this very understanding of use of a human language is missing in minds of people therefore they fail very badly in understanding the quranic text properly.

This is the very mechanism whereby words get their meanings and if one is unfamiliar with this mechanism then one can never understand the quran. When words were used to give things names originally there were reasons for doing so. Arabic is a special language because it links us to our past languages an well as to our future languages. This is why the quran, the final revelation from God has been revealed in this language due to its proper preservation. Now the next vitally important point, which is future meanings of words used in the quran. Now that we know the mechanism whereby the words used in the quran got their meanings in the past we too can use the very same mechanism to derive further meanings for them on the very same grounds or basis. This is why the quran can never become old or an ancient book that has nothing at all to do with our future. Now I ask people what is meaning of words BAITULLAH? You will agree it can mean many things not what ignorant mullahs tell us ie a house in makkah, saudi arabia. It means kingdom of God ie the universe or this world in which we humans live ie we humans are citizens of kingdom of God. In other words we are living in the house made by God for us and therefore we must live in this house by rules of God ie by the rules of the house owner. It also means a place from wherein people carry out orders of God for serving humanity. The very same thing one will see in use of word MASJID. It means a place of worship of God ie an administrative office from wherein people carry out duties God has imposed upon them regarding serving humanity. Nothing at all to do with pooja paat of God.

Already a sensible person will realise what we are told about the quran by foolish mullahs has nothing at all to do with the quran and islam the quran proposes. For the very same reason I take philosophers an scientists who talk rubbish about the quran as fools. Because even if muslims have misinterpreted the quran for whatever reasons at least you people should have done a good job of it because you claim to know more than author of the quran. This is question about honesty and knowledge of people and the right of a book to be interpreted correctly and honestly regardless who its author is. These like are the reason I named this thread the way I did.

When it comes to our knowledge of our past or present or future it is very limited as I have explained it already. Not only that but many of us do not even know things some of us humans have already discovered by now because they lag behind others in their knowledge about things. So knowledge gaps between human beings are a reality. This is why we must teach each other as well as learn from each other and discuss things with each other so that we could know things we should. However when we teach or learn or discuss things with each other we need to have right mindset, attitude and behaviour that is conducive to teaching or learning or discussing things. The wrong mindset, attitude or behaviour will only defeat the very purpose of the exercise.

Just to recap, human language came about gradually because first of all there were no human beings on this earth at all. In fact there was no life at all nor any living thing on this earth and if we go back even the earth was not there. God brought about things from things, so the idea that humans did not evolve from other things is utter nonsense by ignorant people we call mullahs or priesthood etc. When humans came about they originally used to make gestures and simple sounds and as time passed they gradually learned to speak and then they discovered writing and so came about reading and writing culture. With time gestures turned into sounds and words but basically humans were expressing what was in their minds ie their thoughts just like human babies do even today.

In the beginning a human baby just makes some bodily movements and some sounds that are as simple as they can be. Gradually this baby builds on that and makes more and more complex gestures and sounds. There comes a stage when the baby starts speaking but he uses the very same sound or gesture to express so many things. This is like using the very same word for everything in a way. As baby grows he starts using more and more words for saying different things. This is the beginning of our vocabulary. This is where comes from our concept of same word for everything and so many different words for the very same thing.

When people learned reading and writing they used pictographs not letters as we use today. By picture they conveyed many things and concepts or what they meant by certain pictures or pictographs. Later for ease of writing there came about letters and again despite speaking different languages people used the very same letters to write them, Just like today we can write any language using any set of etters eg use persian letters or hindi letters or roman letters etc. As time passed people brought about new letter shapes to help them write things down easily and with clarity just like arabic numeric symbols instead of romans when solving mathetical problems.

Looking at arabic alphabet set, it came from various ancestral languages eg hebrew, syriac, aramaic etc etc. Letters of the set conveyed various concepts eg letter BAITH meant a tent or a household or a people who are interconnected in a place. This is why it means a place where someone lives or resides or abides. The word in its meaning is as tiny as possible and as large as possible ie it means house or dwelling of a single person as well as of all people living in a place. depending upon how it is used and for what purpose. This is why word bait can means a house as well as a village or town or city or country or kingdom or the whole world or whole of the universe. It is because it depends upon how we use the word. All because a person is a citizen of this universe as well as this world or a particular country or kingdom or a city or town or village etc etc. A citizen or dweller of the city or town or village or the tent. This is a vitally important point to understand for proper understanding the quran. It uses simple words to convey most complex ideas. So people who do not or are unable to take such points into consideration can never be able to translate or interpret the quran properly.

For the very reason they cannot see the science in the quran. It is because when scientists discover things and someone says such and such is already told in the quran a debate starts that you are twisting words to fit the quran. If there was science already in the quran then why ancient interpreters of the quran did not predict such and such in their interpretations? These people do not realise the fact already pointed out that humans no matter what cannot see into the future so things which people cannot know till their times comes how could they predict them? The quran contains such information because it is not a book written by human beings but for people to know what is written in the quran they must first reach that stage of knowledge to realise it. This is why people need to look at the quran not as a book of scientific predictions that way but as a book of predictions in the sense that, is there anything in the quran that cannot be justified according to current state of human knowledge? One will see that text of the quran is such due to using such wide range meaning words that it will never be found contradicting known facts.

There are many such like points one can find in the quran that clearly show this book could not have come from human beings because human minds cannot think that wide or in that much depth as is found in the quran. Real problem however is that human beings needs to be that wide and deep thinking to see these like points as I have raised so far.

Hopefully in my next post I will try to explain why it is vitally important to keep the quran in its own category rather than mixing it with the rest of religious holy books.

I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.

Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?

Reply #19 - October 06, 2020, 09:24 AM

Quote from: Mughal on October 06, 2020, 05:48 AM

Another vitally important thing one must come to know to understand the quran properly is origin and development of human language to some degree. To see why translating or interpreting the quran is so difficult for humanity as a whole.

We humans are responsible for interpreting the message of God correctly regardless whatever we claim to be. We have no right to misinterpret the quran deliberately or we can never escape terrible consequences told in the quran for us. The quran is full of warnings to save mankind from terrible painful sufferings. I will explain this point later on when I will start explaining quranic words and their related concepts in detail. Just now I am explaining human language as regard its origin and development asbout the relationship between words and their meanings or the mechanism involved in this process.

Coming to human languages, they all come from the very same original human language. Why? It is because all of us human beings are descendents of the very same original people, so if we came from the original people then we could not have any different original language than the one they used. This is why all our existing languages once we have completed our language family tree will reveal this fact. It is quite possible to retrace languages back to the original mother language. Languages only became different later on when people migrated away from each other and never went back to their ancestral lands. The reason is inventions by humans never ceased with time and as they invented more and more things they had to name them with new words and they had to explain their functionalities etc. This is how human languages became different due to addition of new words and their meanings in different places.

The original human language developed over a very, very long period of time because originally there was very small human population and ideas also came very very slowly to minds of those people but as human population increased and people got more and more ideas they realised they can make sounds as well along with their bodily gestures. People originally made simple gestures which gradually turned into more and more complex gestures just like a human baby does even today and as people gradually turned to sounds they realised they could communicate with each other through sounds as well. Then as they desired to express themselves better and better to each other they got the idea of writing things down in shapes of pictures which were later turned into letters and then much later people became able to read and write as we do today.

People originally only had very simple thinking ability which developed in them over a very long period of time. Once people started thinking more and more and they got better and better they they developed language to express themselves to each other better and better. When they invented words to express their ideas to each other, they tried to express their concept using less number of words just like a baby does today and as time passed they perfected their this idea more and more. This is why original human language expressed a lot of concepts using the very same word and as time passed more and more words were used for expressing the very same concepts. This is why human language is very complex to figure out as to what one is saying unless one is used to living in an environment within a group of people. It is like a mother understands what her baby wants when he cries. She over time realised that when her baby cries he needs her attention because he may be hungry or has wet his nappy or that something is bothering him etc etc. So one can see that just one gesture of crying creates a few possibilities for a mother to figure out as to why the baby is crying. This is the start of understanding human language as to how it came about. It shows how someone makes a body a body or sound gesture and how others make something out of it and try to do something in response. This is why human language uses very same word for many different meanings and many words for the very same meaning.

The alphabet set we use today which contains letters was a set of pictures originally if you like which conveyed some ideas or concepts. We call it alphabet set because this word is made of first two letters of the alphabet set ie ALAF and BAA. In greek alaf was called alpha and baa was called beta. Because languages came from each other so different people made different things of the very same thing. This is what we call different languages. Any human can learn any language within a few years if one tries passionately. So the excuse the quran should be in my own mother tongue is no excuse. The reason is none of us knows even our own mother tongue to the detail the quran requires. The language of the quran is such that each and every human beings needs to learn it right from the beginning. It is because the information the quran contains is vitally important for humanity to know because it teaches mankind what a proper way of life is for humanity to live in this world properly so that it could have the kind of existence it is promised in the quran by God.

Let us now examine the mechanism involved between words and their meanings. Let us talk about letter BAA. It was called BAIT in hebrew and arabic etc. Why because it had something to do with place of living or place of residence. Most people interpret it as house. However, the question is, why it is interpreted as house? It is because it is a place of one's residence. This word alone has very many meanings based upon the reason as to what is meant by a place of residence. It needs a context for its proper understanding as to what one means when one uses it for purpose of place of residence. The place of residence is my address but what is my address? How do I answer this question? It depends on who is asking me this questions and what is the reason for which I need to answer this question. It is part of my identity. Already things are getting complicated, are they not? This shows word bait does not mean house ie a building I am living in for the time being. The place I am living in could be as small as it can be and as large as it can be. Pay attention to what I am saying here because it is vitally important point I am raising for people to realise or become aware of. It is this lack of awareness that makes people interpret the quran very very wrongly. My place of living is a room in which I am living or a house in which I am living. My place of living is the village in which I am living, My place of living could the town or city or country in which I am living or even the world in which I am living etc etc. The context will decide what is meant by word bait not just the word because the word can have so many different meanings for various reasons. For example, a house is a secure place wherein I feel safe. It is my shelter or my protection or sanctuary or asylum or orphanage or safe haven. Because this very understanding of use of a human language is missing in minds of people therefore they fail very badly in understanding the quranic text properly.

This is the very mechanism whereby words get their meanings and if one is unfamiliar with this mechanism then one can never understand the quran. When words were used to give things names originally there were reasons for doing so. Arabic is a special language because it links us to our past languages an well as to our future languages. This is why the quran, the final revelation from God has been revealed in this language due to its proper preservation. Now the next vitally important point, which is future meanings of words used in the quran. Now that we know the mechanism whereby the words used in the quran got their meanings in the past we too can use the very same mechanism to derive further meanings for them on the very same grounds or basis. This is why the quran can never become old or an ancient book that has nothing at all to do with our future. Now I ask people what is meaning of words BAITULLAH? You will agree it can mean many things not what ignorant mullahs tell us ie a house in makkah, saudi arabia. It means kingdom of God ie the universe or this world in which we humans live ie we humans are citizens of kingdom of God. In other words we are living in the house made by God for us and therefore we must live in this house by rules of God ie by the rules of the house owner. It also means a place from wherein people carry out orders of God for serving humanity. The very same thing one will see in use of word MASJID. It means a place of worship of God ie an administrative office from wherein people carry out duties God has imposed upon them regarding serving humanity. Nothing at all to do with pooja paat of God.

Already a sensible person will realise what we are told about the quran by foolish mullahs has nothing at all to do with the quran and islam the quran proposes. For the very same reason I take philosophers an scientists who talk rubbish about the quran as fools. Because even if muslims have misinterpreted the quran for whatever reasons at least you people should have done a good job of it because you claim to know more than author of the quran. This is question about honesty and knowledge of people and the right of a book to be interpreted correctly and honestly regardless who its author is. These like are the reason I named this thread the way I did.

When it comes to our knowledge of our past or present or future it is very limited as I have explained it already. Not only that but many of us do not even know things some of us humans have already discovered by now because they lag behind others in their knowledge about things. So knowledge gaps between human beings are a reality. This is why we must teach each other as well as learn from each other and discuss things with each other so that we could know things we should. However when we teach or learn or discuss things with each other we need to have right mindset, attitude and behaviour that is conducive to teaching or learning or discussing things. The wrong mindset, attitude or behaviour will only defeat the very purpose of the exercise.

Just to recap, human language came about gradually because first of all there were no human beings on this earth at all. In fact there was no life at all nor any living thing on this earth and if we go back even the earth was not there. God brought about things from things, so the idea that humans did not evolve from other things is utter nonsense by ignorant people we call mullahs or priesthood etc. When humans came about they originally used to make gestures and simple sounds and as time passed they gradually learned to speak and then they discovered writing and so came about reading and writing culture. With time gestures turned into sounds and words but basically humans were expressing what was in their minds ie their thoughts just like human babies do even today.

In the beginning a human baby just makes some bodily movements and some sounds that are as simple as they can be. Gradually this baby builds on that and makes more and more complex gestures and sounds. There comes a stage when the baby starts speaking but he uses the very same sound or gesture to express so many things. This is like using the very same word for everything in a way. As baby grows he starts using more and more words for saying different things. This is the beginning of our vocabulary. This is where comes from our concept of same word for everything and so many different words for the very same thing.

When people learned reading and writing they used pictographs not letters as we use today. By picture they conveyed many things and concepts or what they meant by certain pictures or pictographs. Later for ease of writing there came about letters and again despite speaking different languages people used the very same letters to write them, Just like today we can write any language using any set of etters eg use persian letters or hindi letters or roman letters etc. As time passed people brought about new letter shapes to help them write things down easily and with clarity just like arabic numeric symbols instead of romans when solving mathetical problems.

Looking at arabic alphabet set, it came from various ancestral languages eg hebrew, syriac, aramaic etc etc. Letters of the set conveyed various concepts eg letter BAITH meant a tent or a household or a people who are interconnected in a place. This is why it means a place where someone lives or resides or abides. The word in its meaning is as tiny as possible and as large as possible ie it means house or dwelling of a single person as well as of all people living in a place. depending upon how it is used and for what purpose. This is why word bait can means a house as well as a village or town or city or country or kingdom or the whole world or whole of the universe. It is because it depends upon how we use the word. All because a person is a citizen of this universe as well as this world or a particular country or kingdom or a city or town or village etc etc. A citizen or dweller of the city or town or village or the tent. This is a vitally important point to understand for proper understanding the quran. It uses simple words to convey most complex ideas. So people who do not or are unable to take such points into consideration can never be able to translate or interpret the quran properly.

For the very reason they cannot see the science in the quran. It is because when scientists discover things and someone says such and such is already told in the quran a debate starts that you are twisting words to fit the quran. If there was science already in the quran then why ancient interpreters of the quran did not predict such and such in their interpretations? These people do not realise the fact already pointed out that humans no matter what cannot see into the future so things which people cannot know till their times comes how could they predict them? The quran contains such information because it is not a book written by human beings but for people to know what is written in the quran they must first reach that stage of knowledge to realise it. This is why people need to look at the quran not as a book of scientific predictions that way but as a book of predictions in the sense that, is there anything in the quran that cannot be justified according to current state of human knowledge? One will see that text of the quran is such due to using such wide range meaning words that it will never be found contradicting known facts.

There are many such like points one can find in the quran that clearly show this book could not have come from human beings because human minds cannot think that wide or in that much depth as is found in the quran. Real problem however is that human beings needs to be that wide and deep thinking to see these like points as I have raised so far.

Hopefully in my next post I will try to explain why it is vitally important to keep the quran in its own category rather than mixing it with the rest of religious holy books.

dear Mughal you are writing silly and you are running circles without addressing the problems. That first statement of yours is the proof of it and all your posts on this subject of Quran are filled with common fallacies and cogitative dissonance ., well you are not young 18 year old fellow, neither am I ., so please free to fill pages and run in circles, but your time is short Cheesy

, So I consider the best way to spend your rest of time to help Muslims.. The humans.... is translate Quran the way you like., You could have done it by now if you ended that running in circles business without addressing the core problem.

anyways .. my good wishes to you
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything

I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim

- Mughal
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
Reply #20 - October 07, 2020, 05:06 AM

Why the quran must not be taken as a religious holy book like many other religious holy books? It is because the quran is the only book in the world today which claims to be sent by God. No other scripture claims itself to be sent by God. For example, let us take the christian holy scripture the new testament. It is authored by matthew, luke, mark, john etc etc. Since the new testament is not sent by God we humans too should not attribute it to God either. We should not waste our time in studying such books as books sent by God which God did not send and the books themselves do not claim they are from God. Even if we accept for argument sake that jesus was God, yet he did not give any book to his disciples as a book from jesus or for that matter ram did not give ramayna to walmiki as his book. These are books written by people about God and not books given to people by God and these books do not claim that to be the case.

The quran claims to be a distinct book or a book that is clearly different from the rest of existing books in this very respect. By this I do not mean that the quran should be accepted as a book from God just because it says so, for that we will have to examine the quran to see if it is what it claims to be. However this point is vitally important regardless that why we should not accept any other book as a book from God which does not even claim to be sent by God. By this I am not saying these other books written by people are not important because they are but in their own way ie as they are books written by people for the people. Human works are also vitally important for us because they too are very helpful for us human beings in various ways. However human works are not necessarily free of errors therefore they need some sort of criterion to be judged by to see what is true or right in them and what is false and wrong in them. The quran is a stand alone book in that respect and can act as that criterion. How is that possible?

It is possible because the quran is like a complete jig saw puzzle with all its pieces intact and once we assemble this criterion then we can use it as the criterion for testing all other information with it to see if it is true and right or not. This is why understanding the quran is of utmost importance for humanity to have a proper criterion or standard or yardstick or benchmark for checking and testing everything else. Again if one has read the quran, one will find it in the quran that it claims to be the criterion between the truth and falsehood or the right and wrong. Whatever humanity needs to make sense of this world, the quran has it in it. It answers all vitally important questions by humanity eg who sent us here or what for and what we need to do to fulfil the purpose of God for which he has created us. This is why the way that helps us do that is called deen of islam or way of life advised by God. As one can see I am slowly building the picture what the quran is all about. All this is going to help us when we are going to interpret the quranic text for ourselves independent of nonsense of mullahs who have no sense and are keeping others senseless and foolish as far as they can.

Another important point people need to understand is concept of miracles ie are miracles that people believe in really possible or do they serve any purpose? Not at all. Why not? It is because God has created this universe and things in it for serving his purpose so he runs or makes it work to fulfil his purpose and not do things at random. This is why God has set up universal systems, structures, procedure and practices so the operation of each and everything is controlled by set up laws of nature as put in place by God. Laws are not made to be broken or systems will fail to work or operate. Moreover a law of nature is a law of nature only because it is permanent ie it works the same way always. This is why we see water always flows downhill not uphill. Things fall downwards and not upwards. This is why things made by God have fixed properties and characteristics or features or qualities or attributes that is why we humans can name them and use them and make predictions about them otherwise if things changed at random then we could not be able to make any sense of them nor could we make any use of them due to random changes in their natural properlties. In fact life will have been impossible has that been the case.

People hold contradictory or controversial beliefs about things and they also claim miracles by their holy figures and that is simply impossible because then truth and falsehood could never be differentiated or become known. This is why each and everything must follow set laws of nature or it cannot exist or operate in this universe and that is the way God has made things or he has set them up. Moreover even if God himself ends up needing to break his own set up laws then how can we trust God or ourselves? We could not exist or operate in that sort of environment. I mean imagine one day a thing was a stick and the next day it turned into a snake and yet another day it turned into a monkey or one day something was wood and the next day metal and the next day a stone. One minute a thing was fire and the next minute ice etc etc. How could we make any sense of anything if that is how God made things to happen or behave? To make sense of things we needed stability not instability.

Moreover miracles do not and cannot serve any purpose at all in even in the sense of religious people themselves. Why not? It is because if God wanted people to believe in him through miracles then why he did not show his miracles to all people so that they could believe in him? Is it not unfairness on part of God to give miracles to some and not others or to show miracles to some and not others? Not only that but if it was not possible to believe in God without miracles then where are God's miracles for people of today? Today each and every religious person is trying to prove his religion for others on basis of his religious holy book alone. This means God only needed to send a book to be believed by mankind and he did not need to do any miracles at all. All God needed to do was to explain things for mankind in his book as to what his purpose of creating all this was and what part human beings had to play in his grand scheme of things etc etc. This is why a book from God had to be a rational book for mankind to make sense of it in light of real world realities. That book in my view is the quran which has been turned into a book of nonsense by ignorant mullahs and equally foolish philosophers and scientists. Because they instead of carrying out their research on the book as they do on the universe, accepted mullahs nonsense and rejected the book on that basis. The failure of human beings to interpret the book of God rationally is the most serious crime they have committed against God and humanity for which humanity has been paying the price and this situation will continue till people come to their senses and think and do what they need to think and do to get things right and put things right as they should be as they were intended and told by God in his revealed messages for mankind.

My next explanation is about originality of the quranic text ie Is the quran we have today original?

I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
- offline
Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
Reply #21 - October 11, 2020, 09:07 PM

Quote from: crumble on October 01, 2020, 12:14 PM
only experts in language/history/religion are allowed to have an opinion on a compilation of poetic verses? You write more eloquently than akay but it's still mostly nonsense.

crumble dear crumble you are brutal., you try to crumble every cookie and then eat them up ., I ask you why??

anyway., what is your opinion on this..

Quote
...................We exmuslims lack money as well as man power whereas muslim propagation centres are very well funded as well as have plenty of man power at their disposal. Nonetheless our message has gone through despite our lack of things.

Quote
I take five things very seriously for proper foundation of humanity. Freedom, secularism, democracy, human rights and separation between religion and state. Without these things as basis, humanity cannot coexist in harmony therefore cannot have peace, which is absolutely necessary for making progress towards prosperity of mankind.

Our main problem is islamic states' constitutions because they are based on the quran and the hadith and no laws are allowed that go against them. These constitutions give just a very limited freedom for secular matters. What we need is secular democratic state constitutions wherein people of all religions and no religion are given equal freedom with limits. I think all muslim countries should follow turkey as an example rather than saudi arabia...................

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- Mughal
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
Reply #22 - October 21, 2020, 11:42 AM

Is the quran we have today original? Yes, the quran we have today is original. How do we know? We know because we have many copies of the quran around the world from different times and places and many people who have committed the quran to their memories. They are all very same except for copying errors or book binding errors. There is no evidence at all of any deliberately made changes in the text of the quran to pervert its actual message to serve some purpose that is opposite of the actual quranic message. However things need to be looked at in their proper context and the context is the universal realities as we observe them and the revelation of God. Without making proper sense of these two we cannot really claim we understand anything at all properly. We human beings as individuals must do our best to try to make proper sense of the universe as well as the revelation of God by figuring out all the elements or components involved as their detail. That is we need to figure out the universe as a unit and its individual things as well as the quran as a unit with meanings of its components ie its letters, words, phrases, sentences and surahs. So before going into detail of how the quran proves to be preserved properly I need to explain why we human beings need the quran to begin with.

We cannot get anywhere with things just by looking at them and doing nothing much other than living our lives like rest of animals. It is a very sad situation that the world is full of human beings but most just live their lives like rest of animals or we force each other into living like animals. We cannot change this unless we decide to make each and every member of human family a very useful person even if it means using incentives and if that does not work then using force to put each other on the right track. Letting individuals waste their lives is our terrible loss which is costing us all dearly in form of our terrible painful suffering by hands of each other. Education is two things, 1)the understanding of the universal realities because without having this sense we are nowhere because this is our starting point. Unless we discover things for ourselves we cannot know anything about them so we cannot use them as we should, 2)the revelation of God because without having proper understanding of it we cannot have a proper moral foundation.

Just by knowing about the universe we can only learn things about things but not their proper use. For example, we can clearly see we do not trust one another at all. Due to lack of trust we try to hide things from each other for fear of their loss. This leads us to invent newer and newer ways of saving our things from each other so that we are not robbed or dispossessed by each other or that our things are not stolen by each other. This fear can never go away till we create a human society in which we learn to trust each other fully. Just by our inventions of better and better locks and keys we cannot teach other to trust each other but if anything we are teaching each other how not to trust one another. This means we are living our lives the very wrong way and this wrong way of living is ruining us and forcing us to waste our lives on wrong kind of education. Due to this way of life we are always watching our own backs fearing that any one of us can back stab us at any time. This is where our so far adopted education system has led us. We have invented best medicines but people are always dying after terrible painful suffering worldwide because we have adopted a way of living our lives whereby all this does not bother us because we are keeping our things locked away out of reach of many. This being the case, can any of us claim to be a civilised person or a civilised human society? No, not at all. This clearly shows how we try our best to pretend we are civilised good people when reality of the human world we have created or brought about is staring us in the face and calling us liars.

All this because we have ignored the right way of living our lives in this world. That right way of life is told only and only by our creator in his message which he gave us to be proper human beings so that then we could bring about a human world that reflects life of paradise in this world. Let us ask ourselves some questions to help us understand why we humans need guidance of God to live in this world properly. If we read the quran, we are repeatedly told all things belong to God. This means nothing at all belongs to anyone else. If nothing belongs to anyone else then who has any right to have anything at all? None. In fact we human beings ourselves are made by God therefore we ourselves do not own ourselves let alone anything else in this world. This being the case who can tell us who brought us about and why or why we have what we have? Only and only our creator. This is why learning the message of our creator is of utmost important for us so that we get the full picture as to what is going on and where do we fit in all this. God has given us his message to tell us all what is vitally important for us to know to have a great life in this universe as a proper human community in his kingdom. Moreover he has given us the whole of universe to make best use of all that he has given us in there.

We have heard people saying to each other don't play God. The quran tells people that God has created people to play God ie deconstruct what God has made and reconstruct it the way it benefits humanity the best. This is why we use God provided things as raw materials to make things from that which we find useful for ourselves. Humans do play God the wrong way as well ie they try to control each other for their personal gains at each other's expense and that is where playing God is not allowed by God. This is why it is called SHIRK or polytheism. It is not that people actually become Gods but that they are not allowed to make decisions against God's decisions and act upon them and thereby cause problems for each other. It is because you can only live by your own way of life or by way of life that God has advised for humanity. Living by way of life advised by God is about using God provided things the way God has advised and not misusing them or mismanaging them. By using God provided things God's way people can add value to things whereby they appreciate things in their value or worth in their own eyes as well as fulfil the purpose of God but by misusing them they devalues God provided things in the eyes of humanity as well as God. So one can see how vitally important it is for humanity to live by way of life advised by God and not to deliberately live by way of life one chooses for oneself or one will end up causing all sorts of troubles, not only for others but for oneself as well because what goes round comes round. This is why if anyone claims to be a civilised person or society one has to be judged by this criterion alone. Guidance of God must be appreciated because God made the world and he knows each and everything thing about it in all its possible detail so who can be better than God in advising as to how people can fit in with this world the best. This is why the quran challenges mankind to bring a better book than the quran if you are in any doubt about it ie bring a book which tells you a better way of life than the one told by the quran. People don't yet know what kind of way of life the quran teaches then how can they bring a better one? The first thing one needs to know about something is, what it is and only then there is chance of bringing something better. So if the quran is not even understood properly by humanity so far then how can it bring anything like it till it does? We have invented so many kinds of dangerous weapons to harm or destroy each other yet we have not used our brains to make proper sense of what is of utmost importance, that is how clever we are as a specie.

Anyway before I explain the issue of originality of the quran we need to become aware of some points which are often neglected or not given attention they deserve and as a result we end up confusing ourselves instead of understanding the issues or points. When we talk about God, people and rest of things, it is vitally important for a person to realise that each and every existing being has to play its own part or role including God in this grand scheme of things. Likewise when it comes to revelation of God, God plays his role and people play their roles so the end result is what we have. We know God is free of making errors or mistakes but human beings are human beings so they are not necessarily free of making human error in their thoughts or actions.

From God's point of view the quran can never have any errors at all because God does not make mistakes but from human beings' points of views the quran cannot be necessarily error free because humans are prone to making human errors. The proof is simple, ask a person who knows the quran by heart to read it and listen to it and soon you will come to know that the person does get stuck here and there. However when one makes a mistake if there is another person there as well who has also committed the quran to his memory then he will correct him. Likewise whenever we write down things we do end up making mistakes but when we reread things or ask someone else to read what we have written the mistakes we make are caught and if need be they are corrected. So just as people make errors so people can detect those errors and not only detect them but if they so choose they can also correct them. All correctable errors therefore can be ignored as errors or mistakes. This is why as far as practicality or pragmatism is concerned there are no errors in the quran at all because they can be detected and corrected if humanity so decides. When God says he will preserve the quran this is what it means because it cannot be any other way. No human is free of possibility of making human errors because our whole life is based upon idea of learning by trial and error method. Just bring to your mind when you were just a baby or watch any other baby growing and soon you will come to know how many mistakes we humans make and repeatedly till we become learned and wise. So as we grow we do overcome a lot of mistakes or in other words we grow out of those mistakes.

Let us now look at the quranic copies that we have around the world in a bit of detail to see how the existing copies of the quran prove to us human beings that the quran we have today is original and all claims by ignorant people that the quran has been changed are false.

Regardless let us first look at the way the quran was written down in ancient format of writing. If one gathers ancient copies of the quran that still exist today around the world, one will see in them a special way of writing the quranic text. For example, in those copies we will see that they do not have short or very long vowel marks as well as various other marks. Such as are called tashdeed, madda, jazm, damma, kasra or fatha etc etc in arabic. They also have no dots in them to distinguish some alike shaped letters from each other. One can clearly see that BAA, TAA, SAA etc use exactly the same shape of a letter. Likewise JEEM, HAA and KHAA use the very same letter shape, DAAL and ZAAL, RAA and ZAA, SEEN and SHEEN, SWAAD and DWAAD, TWAA and ZWAA, AIN and GHAIN, FAA and QAAF are written using the very same shape. This is most important point to note. The question one has to ask oneself is, is it possible for any person at all to read such a text that is written down this way unless one already knows the actual message in this kind of text format? My answer is, no, it cannot be read no matter how hard one tries unless one is already very much familiar with the message in the text.

What does this prove beyond a shadow of doubt? It proves the quran we have today in its written form has come from the original source ie directly from the final messenger of God. Not only that it also proves beyond a shadow of doubt that the quran we have today was transmitted by the final messenger of God in two completely independent ways or channels. a) through memory ie people had committed the quran to their memories directly from the final messenger of God and b)through writing and again directly from the final messenger of God.

The vitally important points in this regard for people to understand are:-

The way the quran was written down could not be read unless the quranic text was fully memorised by people. If anyone thinks it could be read then go ahead and try it yourself in your very own mother tongue. Ask someone to write something down for you in that format without telling you what one is writing and then you try and read it yourself. You will soon find out that you cannot make any head or tail of such a text in its written format.

But how does this prove the quran we have today is original? It is because the quranic text we find in the existing copies of the quran proves, it could not have been written down by people from their own memories alone as individuals. Not only that but one can try and do so oneself and one will fail badly even today. So the claim by muslims that they can recreate the quranic text merely from their memories if all written copied of the quran somehow became destroyed is false. Why? Because there are some particular problems which people face when someone dictates the quranic text from one's memory for others to write it down. The question is what are those problems?

Those problems are different ways of writing a particular piece of quranic information. For example, if I tell a group of people in a place to write a number eg three. Will the person write 3 as a digit or as a word three? You will agree that some could write 3 as a digit and others could write three as a word. If the quran was copied the same way from dictation by someone from one's memory then people could write it down in different ways. Likewise if I told a person to write ALAF then one could end up writing letter alaf or word alaf or number one because alaf also has an alphanumerical value, which is one or1. In the quran we have many surahs which contain some letters in their beginnings eg surah 2 al baqarah starts with ALAF, LAAM and MEEM letters. So if a group of people was told to write down alaf, laam, meem then what do you think people will write down? Letters alaf, laam and meem or words alaf laam meem? Then in arabic language we have some words that can be written with different spellings or letters eg word SIRAAT can be written either by using letter SEEN or SWAAD. So if a group of people were told to write word SIRAAT what do you think people will write down? SIRAAT with letter SEEN or siraat with letter SWAAD? The same is true in case of word BASTATUN ie it too can be written using either seen or swad. You will agree that some could write down word siraat with seen and others with swaad. It is just as we write english word REALISE with letter S or Z ie REALIZE. Not only this but there are borrowed words in each and every human language from other languages which can be written down different ways eg see in english in how many different ways people spell word MUHAMMAD or QURAAN ie they write it as mohammed or mohamed and so on and so forth or QURAN or KORAN etc etc.

Can you therefore see the problems when people have to read a text from an awkward way of writing without having it in their memories? Likewise can you see the problems if a group of people is told to write some information down from their memories? This will create a lot of variations or differences between people whether they memorise some information or write it down unless they memorised it and wrote it down exactly the same way right from the very beginning or original source. This is how the quran proves to be preserved perfectly beyond a shadow of doubt.

Now the big question, in the existing copies of quran worldwide which are from different times, do we find any such fatal differences at all? The answer is no, none at all. They are all exactly the same anyone can check them any where in the world. This is impossible to happen unless all copies of the quran were copied from the copies exactly the same way. This explanation proves beyond a shadow of doubt that the quran we have today is exactly the same. This claim can also be verified by looking at the quranic text in written form and reading it out from one's memory. Despite coming down to us in two completely independent ways or channels the over all quranic information remains exactly the same. A clear proof that the quran we have today has been preserved perfectly except for some copying errors by the copiers of the quran or book binding errors.

This proves beyond a shadow of doubt that the claims made by ignorant muslims and nonmuslinms about the changed quran are utterly false. Muslims have been spreading false information about the quran in order to defend confusing reports in the hadith books and nonmuslims have been using the same reports to discredit the final messenger of God, the quran and deen of islam etc.

Before I move onto errors in the copies of the quran around the world, it should be born in minds of people that God works with his creatures in the world he has created. This is why when God plays his part in wider scheme of things he makes no mistakes but his human creatures have no immunity against making unintentional mistakes called human errors. Even though God revealed his message to his final messenger in the form of the quran and his messenger preserved it perfectly in form of a memorised information as well as in form of a written information and passed it on through his supporters generation after generation his supporters did make copying errors during this transmission process. However as it is possible for human beings to make unintentional errors so it is possible for them to detect those errors and if they choose they can correct them as well therefore actual message of God does not suffer in such a way that it could be invalidated or discredited.

It is a fact that the quranic copies that still exist worldwide contain scribal, printing and book binding etc etc errors. Such copies always existed and they are nothing new but it is time that I explained what are the features or characteristics or properties of these kinds of errors or why or how they occurred, remained and continued increasing till better ways came about to minimise such errors. They will become eliminated once muslims become an ummah again.

When a person is copying a text from another copy of a written text it is possible that a person puts extra letters or words or phrases in the text of the copy one is making or preparing. One can also omit letters or words or phrases and even sentences or paragraphs or pages by looking at one copy and turning the pages of the other copy from which one is copying. One may end up copying a letter or word or sentence or even a page more than once. Likewise when one is binding pages of a written text in form of a book, one may end up missing some pages or putting extra pages or one may end up putting the pages in wrong order or upside down. It is because human mind does not remain fully attentive at all times when one is doing something. This is how human errors occur or take place and are found in almost each and every copy of the quran. In the printed copies printing related errors occur eg misprints are found in copies.

The good thing is such error are always detected by people who read the quran from those copies and inform the publishers or printers or scribes of the copies. These errors are detectable because of their fixed characteristics. Such errors are also correctable because they are clearly obvious. It is because if any letters are added to words or are omitted from the words then words cannot be read correctly as words. Likewise additions and omissions or disordering of words in sentences makes sentences senseless and if any pages are missed then continuity of the text becomes disturbed. So just as preventing human errors is not possible for human beings so human beings are good at detecting human errors. It is then up to people to correct these correctable errors or not to bother but make later copies better. This is what printers and publishers do ie they correct errors made in earlier copies of the books in later copies they produce of the same text.

No doubt the quran claims that the quran will remain intact but since God does things through things so where people are involved in program of God things will happen the way they should. God does not make mistakes through absent mindedness or lack of attention but people do therefore when it comes to people they can make mistakes in memorising or copying the quran but they can also detect and correct the mistakes they may make in this regard. All because only God is God and humans can only be humans at their best. Humans are not supernatural beings otherwise such errors by human beings will not have taken place at all. This is how the quran has been kept original by God and his people. These like things also expose such people who claim supernatural powers amongst religious folk and foolish people flock around them looking for all kinds of miraculous or magical help from them which they cannot do. If religious holy men or for that matter women had any supernatural powers will they not make sure there are no any copying errors in their holy books? What else could be more important for them than doing this? Likewise if holy people could move about freely between the heaven and the earth or controlled any supernatural hidden beings, could they not tell us how the world looked like from up there very long ago as scientist have discovered it today? Such claims are clearly false and only foolish people accept nonsense and take it seriously. Moreover if human beings had any superpowers they will have interpreted the book from God correctly right from the very beginning and there will not be any need for its reinterpretations all the time as humanity learns more and more sense. All this clearly shows people have been raising false claims always and that we need to become sensible enough to become aware of them and disregard them instead of being fooled by them.

Any errors in any copy are always correctable because copies with errors can be compared with each other as all copies cannot necessarily have exactly the same errors. Moreover later copies can be compared with the earlier ones if need be or vice versa. Not only that but written copies can be tested against memorised version and the memorised version can be tested against the written version. However such exercises should be carried out every now and then by people at ummah level and not at individual level. At individual level people should inform the authorities responsible for publishing of the quranic text to keep the scribal or printing errors or book binding errors to a bare minimum. Unintentional human errors in the copies of the quran make no difference to validity of the quranic text because the original message of the quran over all remains intact despite such kind of errors.

There is no proof at all in the existing copies of the quran around the world for any deliberate changes in the quranic message. All errors found in the existing copies of the quran are unintentional and not deliberate. Unintentional errors occur from human beings naturally but to make deliberate changes one has to have an agenda to make purposeful changes in a piece of information to suit one's agenda so that the agenda or purpose of the existing information could be diverted from what it is, to what serves the agenda of the person who makes deliberate changes to the information. There is no sign of such fatal changes in any existing copy of the quran around the world. A clear proof the quran has been preserved perfectly for all practical purposes. Human errors found in the copies do not invalidate the originality of the quran as we have it.

Why errors occurred in the quranic text has been explained but how they kept increasing remains to be explained. As explained already how errors occurred in the quranic text some people have used these errors and corrections to claim variant readings of the quran which are taken by ignorant muslims and nonmuslims alike as different versions of the quran. In fact so called muslims go a step further and claim God has revealed the quran in different versions. The problem with such claims is, there is no any such proof in the quran itself that God has revealed the quran in different versions. No sensible person can expect that God will reveal a number of versions of the quran yet he will fail to mention them in the quran. Moreover what sensible purpose could those versions serve which the version we have could not? Then we are told these version could be any number of versions eg seven or ten or thirty or more. What it means is that we have only one version with us all the rest are lost. So we have lost six parts if there were seven versions or twenty-nine parts if there were thirty versions etc etc. All this means there were never any different versions of the quran to begin with. How could God ignore mentioning his revealed versions if he did reveal them? Also why God needed to reveal different or multiple versions? By looking at information which is categorised as different versions of the quran one can understand the mistake people made in their understanding of things in this regard. People who talk about different readings or different versions of the quran show they had no idea about origin and development of human language or how human errors occur in a message or how people come together and fall apart and how all this affects what kinds of changes in things. Had they understood such things clearly then they could not have called copies of the quran with errors as different versions of the quran.

Let us now try and understand some basic things in this regard. People who come together from different backgrounds or areas clearly show the problems when they try to talk to each other. For example, try and see how an arab speaks in english or try and and see how a punjabi person speaks english. It shows that people who are used to speaking their own mother tongue if they are not brought up speaking a different language then this could cause them problems when they try to speak a different language after their growing up. It takes a lot of conscious practice to change habits when such a need arises because mind and body parts become programmed. For example, if we have developed some bad habits during growing up they stay with us for lifetime. If anything needs changing it becomes a big problem. We can develop bad habits for driving the car and if we are forced to change them then we have to consciously work at them till we have replaced them. The same is the case with human languages. Ask an indian punjabi person to say word TABLE, he will say TEVAL. He will find it easier to say WAA instead of BAA. ask him to say ZERO, he will say JEERO. Likewise if we ask an arab to say pakistan, he will say bakistan. If we ask an englishman to say TEE as it is in arabic, he will say tea because there is no arabic tee sound in english language. The same is true about people who claim to speak the same language ie they have their own local meanings for certain words. KOWAT

So people need to become aware of the fact that just because we give a name to a language and its people it does not mean all speakers of that same language speak exactly the same language exactly the same way or with exactly the same understanding or meanings etc etc. There occur many variations about it between the people of different areas. If we talk about letters or alphabet set of arabic, we will see people wrote letters in different ways eg different arabs wrote letter FAA differently ie some placed a dot above it and others below it. Likewise different people pronounced arabic letters differently eg ask an egyptian to say letter JEEM, he will say it GEEM. J as in word JUG=G as in word JUG to an egyptian muslim. Likewise for some iraqis or kuwaitis muslims letter QAAF sounds like letter GAAF. In urdu we have both sounds. So these linguistic differences are also found in the quranic copies. Why? Because there was a time when muslims were a single community during lifetime of the final messenger of God but then after him they fell apart into rival groups so their future generations did things according to their own smaller communities as they saw fit. This is why there occurred differences between copies of the quran. These differences increased with time as people divided more and more into smaller and smaller groups. This is why these differences which are of minor nature cannot become eliminated till muslims see the need for a central authority between them for this purpose or reunite as an ummah. Now if on this basis one claims different readings or different versions of the quran then they are as many as many copies of the quran one can find. But as I already explained these sort of errors do not invalidate the quran because if a knowledgable muslim sits down and tries to correct all these error one can. Likewise if muslims decided to have a central authority for this task that too can carry out such a work. It is because every now and again some individuals have been writing books which contain all the needed information as to how or when certain errors occurred or why. This is why the quran remains intact for all practical purposes.

I hope to explain, why islam is away of life and not a religion.

I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.

Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?

Reply #23 - October 21, 2020, 11:50 AM

Quote from: Mughal on October 21, 2020, 11:42 AM

Is the quran we have today original? Yes, the quran we have today is original. How do we know? We know because we have many copies of the quran around the world from different times and places and many people who have committed the quran to their memories. They are all very same except for copying errors or book binding errors. There is no evidence at all of any deliberately made changes in the text of the quran to pervert its actual message to serve some purpose that is opposite of the actual quranic message. However things need to be looked at in their proper context and the context is the universal realities as we observe them and the revelation of God.

Without making proper sense of these two we cannot really claim we understand anything at all properly. We human beings as individuals must do our best to try to make proper sense of the universe as well as the revelation of God by figuring out all the elements or components involved as their detail. That is we need to figure out the universe as a unit and its individual things as well as the quran as a unit with meanings of its components ie its letters, words, phrases, sentences and surahs. So before going into detail of how the quran proves to be preserved properly I need to explain why we human beings need the quran to begin with.

We cannot get anywhere with things just by looking at them and doing nothing much other than living our lives like rest of animals. It is a very sad situation that the world is full of human beings but most just live their lives like rest of animals or we force each other into living like animals. We cannot change this unless we decide to make each and every member of human family a very useful person even if it means using incentives and if that does not work then using force to put each other on the right track. Letting individuals waste their lives is our terrible loss which is costing us all dearly in form of our terrible painful suffering by hands of each other. Education is two things, 1)the understanding of the universal realities because without having this sense we are nowhere because this is our starting point. Unless we discover things for ourselves we cannot know anything about them so we cannot use them as we should, 2)the revelation of God because without having proper understanding of it we cannot have a proper moral foundation.

Just by knowing about the universe we can only learn things about things but not their proper use. For example, we can clearly see we do not trust one another at all. Due to lack of trust we try to hide things from each other for fear of their loss. This leads us to invent newer and newer ways of saving our things from each other so that we are not robbed or dispossessed by each other or that our things are not stolen by each other. This fear can never go away till we create a human society in which we learn to trust each other fully. Just by our inventions of better and better locks and keys we cannot teach other to trust each other but if anything we are teaching each other how not to trust one another. This means we are living our lives the very wrong way and this wrong way of living is ruining us and forcing us to waste our lives on wrong kind of education. Due to this way of life we are always watching our own backs fearing that any one of us can back stab us at any time. This is where our so far adopted education system has led us. We have invented best medicines but people are always dying after terrible painful suffering worldwide because we have adopted a way of living our lives whereby all this does not bother us because we are keeping our things locked away out of reach of many. This being the case, can any of us claim to be a civilised person or a civilised human society? No, not at all. This clearly shows how we try our best to pretend we are civilised good people when reality of the human world we have created or brought about is staring us in the face and calling us liars.

All this because we have ignored the right way of living our lives in this world. That right way of life is told only and only by our creator in his message which he gave us to be proper human beings so that then we could bring about a human world that reflects life of paradise in this world. Let us ask ourselves some questions to help us understand why we humans need guidance of God to live in this world properly. If we read the quran, we are repeatedly told all things belong to God. This means nothing at all belongs to anyone else. If nothing belongs to anyone else then who has any right to have anything at all? None. In fact we human beings ourselves are made by God therefore we ourselves do not own ourselves let alone anything else in this world. This being the case who can tell us who brought us about and why or why we have what we have? Only and only our creator. This is why learning the message of our creator is of utmost important for us so that we get the full picture as to what is going on and where do we fit in all this. God has given us his message to tell us all what is vitally important for us to know to have a great life in this universe as a proper human community in his kingdom. Moreover he has given us the whole of universe to make best use of all that he has given us in there.

We have heard people saying to each other don't play God. The quran tells people that God has created people to play God ie deconstruct what God has made and reconstruct it the way it benefits humanity the best. This is why we use God provided things as raw materials to make things from that which we find useful for ourselves. Humans do paly God the wrong way as well ie they try to control each other for their personal gains at each other's expense and that is where playing God is not allowed by God. This is why it is called SHIRK or polytheism. It is not that people actually become Gods but that they are not allowed to make decisions against God's decisions and act upon them and thereby cause problems for each other. It is because you can only live by your own way or by way of life that God has advised for humanity. Living by way of life advised by God is about using God provided things the way God has advised and not misusing them or mismanaging them. By using God provided things God's way people can add value to things whereby they appreciate things in their value or worth in their own eyes as well as fulfil the purpose of God but by misusing them they devalues God provided things in the eyes of humanity as well as God. So one can see how vitally important it is for humanity to live by way of life advised by God and not to deliberately live by way of life one chooses for oneself or one will end up causing all sorts of troubles, not only for others but for oneself as well because what goes round comes round. This is why if anyone claims to be a civilised person or society one has to be judged by this criterion alone. Guidance of God must be appreciated because God made the world and he knows each and everything thing about it in all its possible detail so who can be better than God in advising as to how people can fit in with this world the best. This is why the quran challenges mankind to bring a better book than the quran if you are in any doubt about it ie bring a book which tells you a better way of life than the one told by the quran. People don't yet know what kind of way of life the quran teaches then how can they bring a better one? The first thing one needs to know about something is, what it is and only then there is chance of bringing something better. So if the quran is not even understood properly by humanity so far then how can it bring anything like it till it does? We have invented so many kinds of dangerous weapons to harm or destroy each other yet we have not used our brains to make proper sense of what is of utmost importance, that is how clever we are as a species.

Anyway before I explain the issue of originality of the quran we need to become aware of some points which are often neglected or not given attention they deserve and as a result we end up confusing ourselves instead of understanding the issues or points. When we talk about God, people and rest of things, it is vitally important for a person to realise that each and every existing being has to play its own part or role including God in this grand scheme of things. Likewise when it comes to revelation of God, God plays his role and people play their roles so the end result is what we have. We know God is free of making errors or mistakes but human beings are human beings so they are not necessarily free of making human error in their thoughts or actions.

From God's point of view the quran can never have any errors at all because God does not make mistakes but from human beings' points of views the quran cannot be necessarily error free because humans are prone to making human errors. The proof is simple, ask a person who knows the quran by heart to read it and listen to it and soon you will come to know that the person does get stuck here and there. However when one makes a mistake if there is another person there as well who has also committed the quran to his memory then he will correct him. Likewise whenever we write down things we do end up making mistakes but when we reread things or ask someone else to read what we have written the mistakes we make are caught and if need be they are corrected. So just as people make errors so people can detect those errors and not only detect them but if they so choose they can also correct them. All correctable errors therefore can be ignored as errors or mistakes. This is why as far as practicality pragmatism is concerned there are no errors in the quran at all because they can be detected and corrected if humanity so decides. When God says he will preserve the quran this is what it means because it cannot be any other way. No human is free of human errors because our whole life is based upon idea of learning by trial and error method. Just bring to your mind when you were just a baby or watch any other baby growing and soon you will come to know how many mistakes we humans make and repeatedly. However as we grow we do overcome a lot of mistakes or in other words we grow out of those mistakes.

Let us now look at the quranic copies that we have around the world in a bit of detail to see how the existing copies of the quran prove to us human beings that the quran we have today is original and all claims by ignorant people that the quran has been changed are false.

Regardless let us first look at the way the quran was written down in ancient format of writing. If one gathers ancient copies of the quran that still exist today around the world, one will see in them a special way of writing the quranic text. For example, in those copies we will see that they do not have short or very long vowel marks as well as various other marks. Such as are called tashdeed, madda, jazm, damma, kasra or fatha etc etc in arabic. They also have no dots in them to distinguish some alike shaped letters from each other. One can clearly see that BAA, TAA, SAA etc use exactly the same shape of a letter. Likewise JEEM, HAA and KHAA use the very same letter shape, DAAL and ZAAL, RAA and ZAA, SEEN and SHEEN, SWAAD and DWAAD, TWAA and ZWAA, AIN and GHAIN, FAA and QAAF are written using the very same shape. This is most important point to note. The question one has to ask oneself is, is it possible for any person at all to read such a text that is written down this way unless one already knows the actual message in this kind of text format? My answer is, no, it cannot be read no matter how hard one tries unless one is already familiar with the message in the text.

What does this prove beyond a shadow of doubt? It proves the quran we have today in its written form has come from the original source ie directly from the final messenger of God. Not only that it also proves beyond a shadow of doubt that the quran we have today was transmitted by the final messenger of God in two completely independent ways or channels. a) through memory ie people had committed the quran to their memories directly from the final messenger of God and b)through writing and again directly from the final messenger of God.

The vitally important points in this regard for people to understand are:-

The way the quran was written down could not be read unless the quranic text was fully memorised by people. If anyone thinks it could be read then go ahead and try it yourself in your very own mother tongue. Ask someone to write something down for you in that format without telling you what one is writing and then you try and read it yourself. You will soon find out that you cannot make any head or tail of such a text in its written format.

But how does this prove the quran we have today is original? It is because the quranic text we find in the existing copies of the quran proves, it could not have been written down by people from their own memories alone as individuals. Not only that but one can try and do so oneself and one will fail badly even today. So the claim by muslims that they can recreate the quranic text merely from their memories if all written copied of the quran somehow became destroyed is false. Why? Because there are some particular problems which people face when someone dictates the quranic text from one's memory for others to write it down. The question is what are those problems?

Those problems are different ways of writing a particular piece of quranic information. For example, if I tell a group of people in a place to write a number eg three. Will the person write 3 as a digit or as a word? You will agree that some could write 3 as a digit and others could write three as a word. If the quran was copied the same way from dictation by someone from one's memory then people could write it down in different ways. Likewise if I told a person to write ALAF then one could end up writing letter alaf or word alaf or number one because alaf also has an alphanumerical value, which is one or1. In the quran we have many surahs which contain some letters in their beginnings eg surah 2 al baqarah starts with ALAF, LAAM and MEEM letters. So if a group of people was told to write down alaf, laam, meem then what do you think people will write down? Letters alaf, laam and meem or words alaf laam meem? Then in arabic language we have some words that can be written with different spellings or letters eg word SIRAAT can be written either by using letter SEEN or SWAAD. So if a group of people were told to write word SIRAAT what do you think people will write down? SIRAAT with letter SEEN or siraat with letter SWAAD? The same is true in case or word BASTATUN ie it too can be written using either seen or swad. You will agree that some could write down word siraat with seen and others with swaad. It is just as we write english word REALISE with letter S or Z ie REALIZE. Not only this but there are borrowed words in each and every human language from other languages which can be written down different ways eg see in english in how many different ways people spell word MUHAMMAD or QURAAN ie they write it as mohammed or mohamed and so on and so forth or QURAN or KORAN etc etc.

Can you therefore see the problems when people have to read a text from an awkward way of writing without having it in their memories? Likewise can you see the problems if a group of people is told to write some information down from their memories? This will create a lot of variations or differences between people whether they memorise some information or write it down unless they memorised it and wrote it down exactly the same way right from the very beginning or original source. This is how the quran proves to be preserved perfectly.

Now the big question, in the existing copies of quran worldwide which are from different times, do we find any such fatal differences at all? The answer is no, none at all. They are all exactly the same anyone can check them any where. This is impossible to happen unless all copies of the quran were copied from the copies exactly the same way. This explanation proves beyond a shadow of doubt that the quran we have today is exactly the same. This claim can also be verified by looking at the quranic text in written form and reading it out from one's memory. Despite coming down to us in two completely independent ways or channels the over all quranic information remains exactly the same. A clear proof that the quran we have today has been preserved perfectly except for some copying errors by the copiers of the quran.

This proves beyond a shadow of doubt that the claims made by ignorant muslims and nonmuslinms about the changed quran are utterly false. Muslims have been spreading false information about the quran in order to defend confusing reports in the hadith books and nonmuslims have been using the same reports to discredit the final messenger of God, the quran and deen of islam.

Before I move onto errors in the copies of the quran around the world, it should be born in minds of people that God works with his creatures in the world he has created. This is why when God plays his part in wider scheme of things he makes no mistakes but his human creatures have no immunity against making unintentional mistakes called human errors. Even though God revealed his message to his final messenger in the form of the quran and his messenger preserved it perfectly in form of a memorised information as well as in form of a written information and passed it on through his supporters generation after generation his supporters did make copying errors during this transmission process. However as it is possible for human beings to make unintentional errors so it is possible for them to detect those errors and if they chose they can correct them as well therefore actual message of God does not suffer in such a way that it could be invalidated or discredited.

It is a fact that the quranic copies that still exist worldwide contain scribal, printing and book binding etc etc errors. Such copies always existed and they are nothing new but it is time that I explained what are the features or characteristics or properties of these kinds of errors or why or how they occurred, remained and continued increasing.

When a person is copying a text from another copy of a written text it is possible that a person puts extra letters or words or phrases in the text of the copy one is making or preparing. One can also omit letters or words or phrases and even sentences or paragraphs or pages by looking at one copy and turning the pages of the other copy from which one is copying. One may end up copying a letter or word or sentence or even a page more than once. Likewise when one is binding pages of a written text in form of a book, one may end up missing some pages or putting extra pages or one may end up putting the pages in wrong order or upside down. It is because human mind does not remain fully attentive at all times when one is doing something. This is how human errors occur or take place and are found in almost each and every copy of the quran. In the printed copies printing related errors occur eg misprints are found in copies.

The good thing is such error are always detected by people who read the quran from those copies and inform the publishers or printers or scribes of the copies. These errors are detectable because of their fixed characteristics. Such errors are also correctable because they are clearly obvious. It is because if any letters are added to words or are omitted from the words then words cannot be read correctly as words. Likewise additions and omissions or disordering of words in sentences makes sentences senseless and if any pages are missed then continuity of the text becomes disturbed. So just as preventing human errors is not possible for human beings so human beings are good at detecting human errors. It is then up to people to correct these correctable errors or not to bother but make later copies better. This is what printers and publishers do ie they correct errors made in earlier copies of the books in later copies they produce of the same text.

No doubt the quran claims that the quran will remain intact but since God does things through things so where people are involved in program of God things will happen the way they should. God does not make mistakes through absent mindedness but people do therefore when it comes to people they can make mistakes in memorising or copying the quran but they can also detect and correct the mistakes they may make in this regard. All because only God is God and humans can only be humans. Humans are not supernatural beings otherwise such errors by human beings will not have taken place at all. This is how the quran has been kept original by God and his people. These like things also expose such people who claim supernatural powers amongst religious folk and foolish people flock around them looking for all kinds of miraculous or magical help from them which they cannot do. If religious holy men or for that matter women had any supernatural powers will they not make sure there are no any copying errors in their holy books? What else could be more important for them than doing this? Likewise if holy people could move about freely between the heaven and the earth or controlled any supernatural beings, could they not tell us how the world looked like from up there very long ago as scientist have discovered it today? Such claims are clearly false and only foolish people accept nonsense and take it seriously. Moreover if human beings had any superpowers they will have interpreted the book from God correctly right from the very beginning and there will not be any need for its reinterpretations all the time as humanity learns more and more sense. All this clearly shows people have been raising false claims always and that we need to become sensible enough to become aware of them and disregard them instead of being fooled by them.

Any errors in any copy are always correctable because copies with errors can be compared with each other as all copies cannot necessarily have exactly the same errors. Moreover later copies can be compared with the earlier ones if need be. Not only that but written copies can be tested against memorised version and the memorised version can be tested against the written version. However such exercises should be carried out every now and then by people at ummah level and not at individual level. At individual level people should inform the authorities responsible for publishing of the quranic text to keep the scribal or printing errors or book binding errors to a bare minimum. Unintentional human errors in the copies of the quran make no difference to validity of the quranic text because the original message of the quran over all remains intact despite such kind of errors.

There is no proof at all in the existing copies of the quran around the world for any deliberate changes in the quranic message. All errors found in the existing copies of the quran are unintentional and not deliberate. Unintentional errors occur from human beings naturally but to make deliberate changes one has to have an agenda to make purposeful changes in a piece of information to suit one's agenda so that the agenda or purpose of the existing information could be diverted from what it is, to what serves the agenda of the person who makes deliberate changes to the information. There is no sign of such fatal changes in any existing copy of the quran around the world. A clear proof the quran has been preserved perfectly for all practical purposes. Human errors found in the copies do not invalidate the originality of the quran as we have it.

Why errors occurred in the quranic text has been explained but how they kept increasing remains to be explained.

dear Ameer.. dear Mughal.... sorry to say this .. BUT TRUTH TO BE TOLD...

you have not done your home work on the history and origins of Quran.. you have not done your home work on Quranic manuscripts from Sana or from other areas.. That is far more bigger subject and needs great analytical/rational skills than writing wall of text .. BUT I WILL READ YOUR POSTS

please read some posts

Quote

https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27568.msg878085#msg878085
https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27568.msg878083#msg878083
https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27568.msg878087#msg878087
https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27568.msg878088#msg878088

DAMN IN FACT YOU SHOULD READ WHOLE FOLDER all 328 pages https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27568.0

with best wishes
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything

I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim

- Mughal
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
Reply #24 - October 24, 2020, 12:26 AM

Another point for people to understand clearly is, islam is a deen, not a mazhab. Why? Because the quran calls the way of life advised by God for humanity to live by DEEN AL ISLAAM. Why the quranic way of life is called deen of islam? Because it is the only way of life that if understood properly and followed faithfully by humanity, it will lead humanity to unity, peace , progress and prosperity in here as well as in hereafter. In other words humanity can have a blissful, dignified and secure existence in here as well as hereafter if it understands the quran properly and lives by it faithfully. The quran rejects idea of any personal God, it is because if there is a God then that God is God of each and every person or thing.

The question is what is deen and what is mazhab? Deen is a way of life revealed by God for mankind to live by in order to have a great life in this world as well as in hereafter. Mazhab is what human being have learned so far all by themselves regarding God and his creation. It is not based upon revelations of God but ideas of people themselves due to their own life experiences and interactions within their social environements. In other words it should be very clear for everyone that it was mazhab that came about long before God revealed deen of islam for humanity to live by. In other words mazhab was already there long before human beings were sent message by God for their guidance. The reason is, God evolved human beings from already existing life forms or tree of life. First there was only the earth ie lifeless or non-living matter. Then there came about life form in a most simple form which evolved into many most complex living things and from those living things evolved humanity. Originally human beings learned thing from other existing things but as they got better and better brains they got better and better in their thinking and doing things. It is because God created things from very, very simple things to very, very complex things and he programmed them accordingly so that they could serve his purpose of creating them.

Why God started revealing his messages to people much later in their lives rather than as the very first thing? It is because God had to wait till some people at least had learned enough sense to understand message of God at least to some degree. It is a case similar to birth of a new baby. A baby has to grow to a stage before he could be able to understand others clearly. So people who claim adam was first human being are totally wrong. No such statement exists in the quran. Word adam is used in the quran for origin and development of humanity as a species or it is used about adam the very first messenger of God to his people. People who deny evolution theory are ignorant to put it simply. Evolution theory does nothing but explains how God brought about things from things and that is what the quran says in its verses. God brought to life living things from non-living things and he changes living things back to non-living things ie non-living matter by way of employing various processes. God brought about all living things from the non-living earth. So even if man comes from monkeys there is nothing wrong with it. Human dignity is not in what man is created from but how well he understands and follows guidance of God in order to fulfil purpose of God for creating him. God has created his creation the way we observe and understand it and not any other way. One has to understand clearly that there are only two acts of God whereby he expressed himself and they are his creation and his revelation. Another point to note is that if God could create his creation then he could also reveal his messages to mankind for their guidance by employing a particular process or mechanism. The idea that God could not interact with his creatures is nothing but nonsense. Equally absurd is the idea that since God can interact with his creatures, he can do whatever he likes and since he can do whatever he likes therefore he has done all kinds of things which people attribute to him. This is nonsense because God had a purpose in his mind for creating things so he is bound by his purpose not to deviate from it therefore he cannot act against his own decision ever. This is why all senseless attributions to God by religious people are nothing but absurdities and people accept them due to lack of proper knowledge of things.

God has programmed all things and human beings are programmed least as compared to other living things this is why they need external guidance whereas other things simply perform their functions as assigned for them by God. Human beings are created to program themselves to a much greater degree than rest of living things. People can judge things but they need a criterion to do so as well as information about the case. Both of these need to be learned by human beings. There is no way human beings could know what is really true or false or what is really right or wrong, if they could they could not differ with each other regarding these. For example, if we look at people, we can see they believe and do different things. What one group believes to be true, another group believes it to be false. What one groups believes is right, another group believes it to be wrong. If people could judge truth and falsehood or right and wrong without a need for an external criterion then this situation between people could never arise. It is a clear proof that people need guidance from God as the criterion for judging what is true or false or what is right or wrong. This is why ignoring revelation of God has utmost serious consequences for humanity as a whole. It is only through creation and revelation of God humanity can come to know if morality is absolute or not or both. Why? Because God knows all in all and people do not. This is why morality is absolute from point of view of God because he knows everything fully already but relative from point of view of humanity because people need to learn things and arrive at that stage before they too could see things as they are or as they should be in relation to morality. This is why what God says is true is actually true but it will take us human beings a very long and a very hard struggle to find out what God has said is true, because we will have to gain the needed information about the issue and then after making proper sense of that information we will come to the very same truth.

Many such points made in the quran force one to accept the claims the quran makes that it is truly revealed word of God. This is why God has created humanity in its simplest form both biologically as well as psychologically. Because once God expressed himself through creation and revelation then he could be truly appreciated by his human creatures if they so chose by learning and doings all they needed to learn and do all by themselves. This is why human beings are top most creatures of God or worst of all the creation. It is because man can climb up the ladder of dignity and honour by thinking and doing what is inline with guidance of God and humanity or go down and be lowest of the low by thinking and doing what goes against God and humanity. This is why humanity is working towards the end God has set for it right from the very beginning. A time will come when humanity will become wise enough to self organise and self regulate itself according to guidance of God and bring about a world like paradise for itself in this very universe. This is why deen of islam has fives main pillars 1)TOHEED 2)SALAAH 3)SOWM, 4)ZAKAAH and 5) HAJJ. What is connection between these pillars? In simple words these pillar tell people to be a perfect human brotherhood or a single human family under one true God.

The pillar called TOHEED is about belief in one true God by way of his revealed word for this era the quran which is revealed via his final messenger muhammad. This is why none can claim to own or rule even a simplest possible subatomic particle let alone a human being. This is why no muslim can be a ruler or master of another muslim or for that matter a nonmuslim because muslims are supposed to be members of the very same brotherhood of humanity or human family. People who claim to be muslims are supposed to cooperate and fully support each other for ensuring well being of each other and thereby of the whole proper human community in the kingdom of God. One can therefore clearly see that people who claim to be muslims how close they are to actual teaching of the quran. This pillar is not at all about POOJA of God. God does not ask people for POOJA ie ritalistic worship of God. God does not need anyone to pay him any lip service because it does not fulfil his purpose of creating human beings. This is why to translate or interpret this pillar as none is worthy of ritualistic worship other than Allah is totally wrong interpretation of this pillar. I will explain latter on why God cannot be worshipped or why it is wrong to do so when I discuss religion and its absurdities.

The pillar called SALAAH is about bringing about a proper human community in the kingdom of God according to guidance of God. This pillar is about connecting or linking or joining or sticking people together as a family or a brotherhood of humanity for God sake. In other words it is about establishing a network of humanity under God or for sake of God. It has nothing at all to do with what name sake muslims claim to be daily prayers. I will later on explain why God could never ask people for daily prayers. One will come to realise how absurd this idea of five daily prayers is.

The pillar called SOWM is about people not thinking and doing anything which may fracture or break up the proper human community that is established in the kingdom of God or may not even let a proper human community come about to begin with. This has nothing at all to do with people fasting or staying hungry and thirsty from dawn to sunset for thirty days during month of ramadan. In fact there was no such thing as called islamic months during life time of the messenger of God. What we call muslim calendar was started by second caliph of islam after the death of the messenger of God. Again I will try and explain why fasting is not part of deen of islam as practised by namesake muslims.

The pillar called ZAKAAH is about thinking and doing all one can to strengthen the proper human community so that it develops or grows or progresses and prospers and so that others also come and join this community for ensuring their own well being by being part of this brotherhood under one true God. It has nothing at all to do with rich giving alms for the poor at the rate of 2.5% on their savings each year. Buying and selling things is not allowed in deen of islam because no one owns anything at all other than God so how can anyone sell anything which none has the right to own to begin with? It is a mechanism of exploitation and manipulation and making fool of each other for personal gains at the expense of each other. There is no such things as rich and poor muslims. Ummah means one people under one true God. Can such people ever become an ummah or a proper human community under one true God who exploit and manipulate each other? Again I will go into great detail about all these things later on. So ZAKAAH too cannot be what namesake muslims claim it to be. This is a ploy by powerful and rich people who say they are muslims but actually they are not. All this is going to be explained in detail.

The pillar called HAJJ is about undertaking a sacred journey towards a sacred or God appointed destiny or end goal. The end goal according to the quran is bringing about a kingdom wherein people live by rule of law of God and once such a kingdom is brought about to maintain it or to keep it going, the best people can according to their God given abilities for sake of God and ensuring well being of humanity. Did name sake muslims do any of these things which have power to change things in this world for mankind for the best? No, they can't even think at this level or let others think at this level let alone they think and do things at this level instead most of them are worse than animals because they do not use their God given brains to think and do things which God tells them to think and do. Instead they get busy waving their back sides in the air and rubbing their noses on the ground. Calling their such acts worship of God. The quran provides an architectural map for building a proper human society. This is what word UMRAH is used for. The quranic text has nothing at all to do with visiting kaba in makkah as the main pillar of deen of islam. if anything even ancient sights are important to visit according to the quran, not because they are holy sights but so that people could learn from good or bad beliefs and practices of people who lived in there to see what gained or lost by living according to God advised way of life or by living against it.

Regardless these explanations clearly show that deen of islam teaches humanity to be one for all and all for one. Look at wording of muslim AZAAN which namesake muslims call, a call to prayer for muslims. It is not a call to prayer for muslims but a call to deen of islam for humanity as a whole. People are told come and be part of a proper human community so that you could be successful in having a great life in here as well as in hereafter. This explanation should leave none in doubt that deen of islam has nothing at all to do with mazhab or religion or namesake muslims. It is all about real life and its realities. This is why deen of islam is about a proper human society, its proper politics, its proper culture and its proper economics etc etc. It has nothing at all to do with mullahs nonsense they call islam or religion of islam. One simple question is enough to dismantles islam of mullahs and namesake muslims. Mullahs also accept their islam has five pillars. What this means is that main islam is all about these fives pillars or in their mind these five things are of the utmost importance in their islam. This being the case, can any mullah or any namesake muslim tell me which of these pillars deals with real world real issues effectively if islam of mullahs is the best way of life for humanity to live by? None can ever give a worthy answer for this question try all one can. No religion can answer tough questions no matter what because all religions are human creations which have been adjusted to accommodate interests of various parties ie rulers, money lenders and mullahs. Deen of islam is a straightforward way of life and it is up to people to accept or reject it and face the consequence which cannot be escaped by anyone ever. Not only in hereafter but right in this very world.

Deen of islam is about people organising and regulating themselves according to the quran based constitution and laws for doing works of God as his employees or workers or servants and it is not about ruling humanity but serving humanity for sake of God. This is where secularism and religion both fail humanity in a very bad way. Look at how democratic system works in the world to fool the uneducated and unaware. This is why proper education of each and every person is of vital importance so that together people could bring about a proper human community and reap the benefits promised in the quran. Deen of islam is not about sitting on the prayer mat and crying to God for help. It is because whatever humanity needed for doing what they were created for by God has already been given to them including things for use and guidance. So all people need to do is learn about things and guidance of God and get on with doing things that need to be done by them so that as a result this world becomes a paradise for humanity. This is why islam is a proper way of life because it deals with real world issues properly. It is about livelihood of humanity or its sustenance. It tells people how they should fulfil their daily needs properly as individuals within the proper human community. That is where humanity is mislead by religious and secular forces because they try to take people away from real way of life therefore people instead of working for ensuring well being of each other start attacking each other for dispossessing each other or robbing each other by force or by tricks or clever mechanisms. It is because some people want to be masters of others whereby they try to enslave each other by various means or methods or ways. This is why they try their best to take control of land and resources and means of production and distribution so that thereby they could control people mentally and physically. Such people use religion for the very same end as seculairm.

These people try their best not to let rest of people live their lives properly by creating oppressive conditions or situations or circumstances and if any of the people try and blame them they quickly tell them it is all fault of your God because he has not given you what he has given us. The quran tells us that God created people different from each other by giving some people more advantages than others so that people complement each other by cooperating fully with each other and working in harmony. This is how the blind and the legless can escape the fire in the jungle ie blind carrying the legless on his shoulders and the legless guiding the blind. However human beings instead of working in harmony and complementing each other try and take undue advantages of each other for their petty personal gains at each other's expense. So one can see why and how powerful and wealthy people fund mullaism so that they could keep rest of masses confused through their wrong interpretations of the God sent scriptures to mislead humanity thereby. It is because these people have no real knowledge about the God sent scriptures. Moreover these people do not build sufficient proper educational places because then educated people will become a threat for their lifestyle at the expense of rest of humanity. This shows how all wars and terrorism is created by design and it has nothing at all to do with the quranic teaching. The very people who create terrorism and wars between people for their petty personal gains complain against it the most as well as very loudly. The quranic teaching is simple, it is up to people themselves to make their lives a paradise or a hell by following the right or wrong way of life. One cannot reach the right destination by following the wrong way that leads nowhere or to somewhere else away from the intended destination. Life of paradise or hell starts in this life and continues into the life to come.

From the explanations I have provided so far it should very be clear how mullahs have made fool of namesake muslims as well as nonmuslim who do not study the quran properly by themselves and depend fully upon mullahs and follow them blindly. They have replaced the quranic words with wrong meanings eg word masjid is turned into a prayer temple which is actually a place from where administration of the kingdom of God is supposed to carry out its God given tasks as decided by the community as a whole. Masaajid are supposed to be government offices from where worker of God are supposed to carry out their God given duties to serve the ummah, the duties which are decided and given to them by ummah or the proper human community. The quran was misinterpreted to show islam is a religion like any other religion which it is not. This is why the quran needs to be interpreted properly in context of deen of islam. This is proper context of the quran in which the whole quran needs to be interpreted to put things right for humanity. We can see the quran repeatedly talks about some things because those things are very very important for humanity to know and take heed. It repeatedly warns against thinking and doing wrongs to each other. Not because God is angry but that he is wise and wants people to know where they are heading or will end up if they will continue along that path. The quran is a book for a proper education based revolution for bringing about changes in human societies for the best of mankind. We cannot change anything by sitting in temples and praying or repeating some words or doing religious things. Religion in that sense is utterly ineffective. This is why it is used by the powerful and the rich to make fool of masses. Their good or bad is decided by religious criterion instead of how it affects humanity at large. You pray to God five times daily you go to paradise or you say these words and you are forgiven all your sins etc etc. This is how they fool masses to think they are good people without really doing anything good for God or humnaity. Religious chip on the shoulder has nothing at all to do with deen of islam. Deen of Islam is all about what people actually think and do for or against each other. This is how they are defined as good citizens of kingdom of God or as criminals who disobey rule of law of God and think and do harmful and destructive things to each other.

In deen of islam people and God are all bound by the very same rule of law of God. This is why even God cannot deviate from his given law or go back on his words or promises. This is why people will get what they have been promised by God as they respond to call of God. There is no concept of forgiveness of sins in deen of islam. You commit a crime against humanity you pay for it because that is what is promised by God. There is no concept of intervention by anyone for getting anyone forgiveness of one's sins. People can intervene only to stop one from committing a crime before one does it. If a crime is committed then punishment must follow be it right away or after a given respite ends. There are no exceptions in set laws of God as already explained in case of miracles and laws of nature etc. You put your hand in fire it will burn. Mullahs have given wrong meanings to word ISTAGHFAAR. In quranic context it means to seek protection of God not his forgiveness. The idea is to do things which God says people should for ensuring well being of each other and they should not do things to each other from which God stops them. This is how people can protect themselves from hands or each other as a proper human community. This is why people must try their best to help each other in doing good for one another and they must not let each other do bad to each other. This is how the human community can stay safe and will not need any saviour after destroying itself by doing wrongs to each other. My explanations should make clear to people how they are made fools by ignorant people who claim to be religious leaders. This is why they need to educate themselves properly or keep suffering terribly painfully. There is no one coming to save anyone or to forgive any crimes people commit against each other for their petty personal gains at each other's expense. Such beliefs and practices are utterly false and are invented to make fools of people so that they remain put after wrong is done to them in hope that someone else will come and save them or will put things right for them.

It is people themselves who are supposed to keep their world the way they want it because the world is what people make of it all by themselves. God does not intervene in this world the way religious people believe it to be the case. So stop reading mullahs translations and interpretation of the quran and learn language of the quran to see how wrong people are about the quran. Deen of islam is very simple, be a community and work hard for ensuring well being of each other according to the best of your God given abilities and share the benefits appropriately. This is why there is no concept of joblessness or unemployment in deen of islam. It is because deen of islam is about helping each other to develop to full potential by actualising potentialities God has placed in people and not to prevent each other from progress and prosperity by placing obstacle and hurdles in each other's way. This is why religion and secularism cannot compete with deen of islam.

Now let us look at sunnah concept of mullahs and their foolish followers. They think muslims should act like the final messenger of God or copy him or imitate his actions. They have no sense to realise that if people follow a daily routine they become stuck with it therefore they cannot develop or make progress therefore they cannot prosper as a community and instead they stagnate and regress as rest of humanity moves on. Deen of islam tells us to go back in time for things which provide us basis for our future and that we must move forward in time so that we have a great future. The quran nowhere tells us to follow messenger of God in a way that makes us get stuck in the 7th century arabian desert. It instead it tells us to be on the top of the world by building a community based upon the model the quran provides for building such a community. The quran tells us how to create wealth properly and how to distribute it so that there is no one poor or weak in the proper human community. This is why there is no concept of charity for the poor in deen of islam instead all muslim are supposed to be in the very same boat. It is because each and every person belongs to God and each and every thing belongs to God. So no one is doing anything for anyone rather all are doing everything for sake of God whereby all benefit. In such a society all are humble and thankful to God that he has chosen them to help others for his sake. This is why an abled bodied person cannot look down upon a person with disabilities with disdain or as a burden on society. This is how trinity of rulers, money lenders and mullahs becomes fully exposed as axis of evil.

Next I hope to talk about position or status of hadith books, sunnah or praying to God to show why it is wrong to pray to God 5 times daily on fixed times.

I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.

Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?

Reply #25 - October 27, 2020, 09:44 AM

Quote from: Mughal on October 24, 2020, 12:26 AM

Another point for people to understand clearly is, islam is a deen, not a mazhab. Why? Because the quran calls the way of life advised by God for humanity to live by DEEN AL ISLAAM. Why the quranic way of life is called deen of islam? Because it is the only way of life that if understood properly and followed faithfully by humanity, it will lead humanity to unity, peace , progress and prosperity in here as well as in hereafter.

In other words humanity can have a blissful, dignified and secure existence in here as well as hereafter if it understands the quran properly and lives by it faithfully. The quran rejects idea of any personal God, it is because if there is a God then that God is God of each and every person or thing.

The question is what is deen and what is mazhab? Deen is a way of life revealed by God for mankind to live by in order to have a great life in this world as well as in hereafter. Mazhab is what human being have learned so far all by themselves regarding God and his creation. It is not based upon revelations of God but ideas of people themselves due to their own life experiences and interactions within their social environements. In other words it should be very clear for everyone that it was mazhab that came about long before God revealed deen of islam for humanity to live by. In other words mazhab was already there long before human beings were sent message by God for their guidance. The reason is, God evolved human beings from already existing life forms or tree of life. First there was only the earth ie lifeless or non-living matter. Then there came about life form in a most simple form which evolved into many most complex living things and from those living things evolved humanity. Originally human beings learned thing from other existing things but as they got better and better brains they got better and better in their thinking and doing things. It is because God created things from very, very simple things to very, very complex things and he programmed them accordingly so that they could serve his purpose of creating them.

Why God started revealing his messages to people much later in their lives rather than as the very first thing? It is because God had to wait till some people at least had learned enough sense to understand message of God at least to some degree. It is a case similar to birth of a new baby. A baby has to grow to a stage before he could be able to understand others clearly. So people who claim adam was first human being are totally wrong. No such statement exists in the quran. Word adam is used in the quran for origin and development of humanity as a species or it is used about adam the very first messenger of God to his people. People who deny evolution theory are ignorant to put it simply. Evolution theory does nothing but explains how God brought about things from things and that is what the quran says in its verses. God brought to life living things from non-living things and he changes living things back to non-living things ie non-living matter by way of employing various processes. God brought about all living things from the non-living earth. So even if man comes from monkeys there is nothing wrong with it. Human dignity is not in what man is created from but how well he understands and follows guidance of God in order to fulfil purpose of God for creating him. God has created his creation the way we observe and understand it and not any other way. One has to understand clearly that there are only two acts of God whereby he expressed himself and they are his creation and his revelation. Another point to note is that if God could create his creation then he could also reveal his messages to mankind for their guidance by employing a particular process or mechanism. The idea that God could not interact with his creatures is nothing but nonsense. Equally absurd is the idea that since God can interact with his creatures, he can do whatever he likes and since he can do whatever he likes therefore he has done all kinds of things which people attribute to him. This is nonsense because God had a purpose in his mind for creating things so he is bound by his purpose not to deviate from it therefore he cannot act against his own decision ever. This is why all senseless attributions to God by religious people are nothing but absurdities and people accept them due to lack of proper knowledge of things.

God has programmed all things and human beings are programmed least as compared to other living things this is why they need external guidance whereas other things simply perform their functions as assigned for them by God. Human beings are created to program themselves to a much greater degree than rest of living things. People can judge things but they need a criterion to do so as well as information about the case. Both of these need to be learned by human beings. There is no way human beings could know what is really true or false or what is really right or wrong, if they could they could not differ with each other regarding these. For example, if we look at people, we can see they believe and do different things. What one group believes to be true, another group believes it to be false. What one groups believes is right, another group believes it to be wrong. If people could judge truth and falsehood or right and wrong without a need for an external criterion then this situation between people could never arise. It is a clear proof that people need guidance from God as the criterion for judging what is true or false or what is right or wrong. This is why ignoring revelation of God has utmost serious consequences for humanity as a whole. It is only through creation and revelation of God humanity can come to know if morality is absolute or not or both. Why? Because God knows all in all and people do not. This is why morality is absolute from point of view of God because he knows everything fully already but relative from point of view of humanity because people need to learn things and arrive at that stage before they too could see things as they are or as they should be in relation to morality. This is why what God says is true is actually true but it will take us human beings a very long and a very hard struggle to find out what God has said is true, because we will have to gain the needed information about the issue and then after making proper sense of that information we will come to the very same truth.

Many such points made in the quran force one to accept the claims the quran makes that it is truly revealed word of God. This is why God has created humanity in its simplest form both biologically as well as psychologically. Because once God expressed himself through creation and revelation then he could be truly appreciated by his human creatures if they so chose by learning and doings all they needed to learn and do all by themselves. This is why human beings are top most creatures of God or worst of all the creation. It is because man can climb up the ladder of dignity and honour by thinking and doing what is inline with guidance of God and humanity or go down and be lowest of the low by thinking and doing what goes against God and humanity. This is why humanity is working towards the end God has set for it right from the very beginning. A time will come when humanity will become wise enough to self organise and self regulate itself according to guidance of God and bring about a world like paradise for itself in this very universe. This is why deen of islam has fives main pillars 1)TOHEED 2)SALAAH 3)SOWM, 4)ZAKAAH and 5) HAJJ. What is connection between these pillars? In simple words these pillar tell people to be a perfect human brotherhood or a single human family under one true God.

The pillar called TOHEED is about belief in one true God by way of his revealed word for this era the quran which is revealed via his final messenger muhammad. This is why none can claim to own or rule even a simplest possible subatomic particle let alone a human being. This is why no muslim can be a ruler or master of another muslim or for that matter a nonmuslim because muslims are supposed to be members of the very same brotherhood of humanity or human family. People who claim to be muslims are supposed to cooperate and fully support each other for ensuring well being of each other and thereby of the whole proper human community in the kingdom of God. One can therefore clearly see that people who claim to be muslims how close they are to actual teaching of the quran. This pillar is not at all about POOJA of God. God does not ask people for POOJA ie ritalistic worship of God. God does not need anyone to pay him any lip service because it does not fulfil his purpose of creating human beings. This is why to translate or interpret this pillar as none is worthy of ritualistic worship other than Allah is totally wrong interpretation of this pillar. I will explain latter on why God cannot be worshipped or why it is wrong to do so when I discuss religion and its absurdities.

The pillar called SALAAH is about bringing about a proper human community in the kingdom of God according to guidance of God. This pillar is about connecting or linking or joining or sticking people together as a family or a brotherhood of humanity for God sake. In other words it is about establishing a network of humanity under God or for sake of God. It has nothing at all to do with what name sake muslims claim to be daily prayers. I will later on explain why God could never ask people for daily prayers. One will come to realise how absurd this idea of five daily prayers is.

The pillar called SOWM is about people not thinking and doing anything which may fracture or break up the proper human community that is established in the kingdom of God or may not even let a proper human community come about to begin with. This has nothing at all to do with people fasting or staying hungry and thirsty from dawn to sunset for thirty days during month of ramadan. In fact there was no such thing as called islamic months during life time of the messenger of God. What we call muslim calendar was started by second caliph of islam after the death of the messenger of God. Again I will try and explain why fasting is not part of deen of islam as practised by namesake muslims.

The pillar called ZAKAAH is about thinking and doing all one can to strengthen the proper human community so that it develops or grows or progresses and prospers and so that others also come and join this community for ensuring their own well being by being part of this brotherhood under one true God. It has nothing at all to do with rich giving alms for the poor at the rate of 2.5% on their savings each year. Buying and selling things is not allowed in deen of islam because no one owns anything at all other than God so how can anyone sell anything which none has the right to own to begin with? It is a mechanism of exploitation and manipulation and making fool of each other for personal gains at the expense of each other. There is no such things as rich and poor muslims. Ummah means one people under one true God. Can such people ever become an ummah or a proper human community under one true God who exploit and manipulate each other? Again I will go into great detail about all these things later on. So ZAKAAH too cannot be what namesake muslims claim it to be. This is a ploy by powerful and rich people who say they are muslims but actually they are not. All this is going to be explained in detail.

The pillar called HAJJ is about undertaking a sacred journey towards a sacred or God appointed destiny or end goal. The end goal according to the quran is bringing about a kingdom wherein people live by rule of law of God and once such a kingdom is brought about to maintain it or to keep it going, the best people can according to their God given abilities for sake of God and ensuring well being of humanity. Did name sake muslims do any of these things which have power to change things in this world for mankind for the best? No, they can't even think at this level or let others think at this level let alone they think and do things at this level instead most of them are worse than animals because they do not use their God given brains to think and do things which God tells them to think and do. Instead they get busy waving their back sides in the air and rubbing their noses on the ground. Calling their such acts worship of God. The quran provides an architectural map for building a proper human society. This is what word UMRAH is used for. The quranic text has nothing at all to do with visiting kaba in makkah as the main pillar of deen of islam. if anything even ancient sights are important to visit according to the quran, not because they are holy sights but so that people could learn from good or bad beliefs and practices of people who lived in there to see what gained or lost by living according to God advised way of life or by living against it.
Regardless these explanations clearly show that deen of islam teaches humanity to be one for all and all for one. Look at wording of muslim AZAAN which namesake muslims call, a call to prayer for muslims. It is not a call to prayer for muslims but a call to deen of islam for humanity as a whole. People are told come and be part of a proper human community so that you could be successful in having a great life in here as well as in hereafter. This explanation should leave none in doubt that deen of islam has nothing at all to do with mazhab or religion or namesake muslims. It is all about real life and its realities. This is why deen of islam is about a proper human society, its proper politics, its proper culture and its proper economics etc etc. It has nothing at all to do with mullahs nonsense they call islam or religion of islam. One simple question is enough to dismantles islam of mullahs and namesake muslims. Mullahs also accept their islam has five pillars. What this means is that main islam is all about these fives pillars or in their mind these five things are of the utmost importance in their islam. This being the case, can any mullah or any namesake muslim tell me which of these pillars deals with real world real issues effectively if islam of mullahs is the best way of life for humanity to live by? None can ever give a worthy answer for this question try all one can. No religion can answer tough questions no matter what because all religions are human creations which have been adjusted to accommodate interests of various parties ie rulers, money lenders and mullahs. Deen of islam is a straightforward way of life and it is up to people to accept or reject it and face the consequence which cannot be escaped by anyone ever. Not only in hereafter but right in this very world.

Deen of islam is about people organising and regulating themselves according to the quran based constitution and laws for doing works of God as his employees or workers or servants and it is not about ruling humanity but serving humanity for sake of God. This is where secularism and religion both fail humanity in a very bad way. Look at how democratic system works in the world to fool the uneducated and unaware. This is why proper education of each and every person is of vital importance so that together people could bring about a proper human community and reap the benefits promised in the quran. Deen of islam is not about sitting on the prayer mat and crying to God for help. It is because whatever humanity needed for doing what they were created for by God has already been given to them including things for use and guidance. So all people need to do is learn about things and guidance of God and get on with doing things that need to be done by them so that as a result this world becomes a paradise for humanity. This is why islam is a proper way of life because it deals with real world issues properly. It is about livelihood of humanity or its sustenance. It tells people how they should fulfil their daily needs properly as individuals within the proper human community. That is where humanity is mislead by religious and secular forces because they try to take people away from real way of life therefore people instead of working for ensuring well being of each other start attacking each other for dispossessing each other or robbing each other by force or by tricks or clever mechanisms. It is because some people want to be masters of others whereby they try to enslave each other by various means or methods or ways. This is why they try their best to take control of land and resources and means of production and distribution so that thereby they could control people mentally and physically. Such people use religion for the very same end as seculairm.

These people try their best not to let rest of people live their lives properly by creating oppressive conditions or situations or circumstances and if any of the people try and blame them they quickly tell them it is all fault of your God because he has not given you what he has given us. The quran tells us that God created people different from each other by giving some people more advantages than others so that people complement each other by cooperating fully with each other and working in harmony. This is how the blind and the legless can escape the fire in the jungle ie blind carrying the legless on his shoulders and the legless guiding the blind. However human beings instead of working in harmony and complementing each other try and take undue advantages of each other for their petty personal gains at each other's expense. So one can see why and how powerful and wealthy people fund mullaism so that they could keep rest of masses confused through their wrong interpretations of the God sent scriptures to mislead humanity thereby. It is because these people have no real knowledge about the God sent scriptures. Moreover these people do not build sufficient proper educational places because then educated people will become a threat for their lifestyle at the expense of rest of humanity. This shows how all wars and terrorism is created by design and it has nothing at all to do with the quranic teaching. The very people who create terrorism and wars between people for their petty personal gains complain against it the most as well as very loudly. The quranic teaching is simple, it is up to people themselves to make their lives a paradise or a hell by following the right or wrong way of life. One cannot reach the right destination by following the wrong way that leads nowhere or to somewhere else away from the intended destination. Life of paradise or hell starts in this life and continues into the life to come.

From the explanations I have provided so far it should very be clear how mullahs have made fool of namesake muslims as well as nonmuslim who do not study the quran properly by themselves and depend fully upon mullahs and follow them blindly. They have replaced the quranic words with wrong meanings eg word masjid is turned into a prayer temple which is actually a place from where administration of the kingdom of God is supposed to carry out its God given tasks as decided by the community as a whole. Masaajid are supposed to be government offices from where worker of God are supposed to carry out their God given duties to serve the ummah, the duties which are decided and given to them by ummah or the proper human community. The quran was misinterpreted to show islam is a religion like any other religion which it is not. This is why the quran needs to be interpreted properly in context of deen of islam. This is proper context of the quran in which the whole quran needs to be interpreted to put things right for humanity. We can see the quran repeatedly talks about some things because those things are very very important for humanity to know and take heed. It repeatedly warns against thinking and doing wrongs to each other. Not because God is angry but that he is wise and wants people to know where they are heading or will end up if they will continue along that path. The quran is a book for a proper education based revolution for bringing about changes in human societies for the best of mankind. We cannot change anything by sitting in temples and praying or repeating some words or doing religious things. Religion in that sense is utterly ineffective. This is why it is used by the powerful and the rich to make fool of masses. Their good or bad is decided by religious criterion instead of how it affects humanity at large. You pray to God five times daily you go to paradise or you say these words and you are forgiven all your sins etc etc. This is how they fool masses to think they are good people without really doing anything good for God or humnaity. Religious chip on the shoulder has nothing at all to do with deen of islam. Deen of Islam is all about what people actually think and do for or against each other. This is how they are defined as good citizens of kingdom of God or as criminals who disobey rule of law of God and think and do harmful and destructive things to each other.

In deen of islam people and God are all bound by the very same rule of law of God. This is why even God cannot deviate from his given law or go back on his words or promises. This is why people will get what they have been promised by God as they respond to call of God. There is no concept of forgiveness of sins in deen of islam. You commit a crime against humanity you pay for it because that is what is promised by God. There is no concept of intervention by anyone for getting anyone forgiveness of one's sins. People can intervene only to stop one from committing a crime before one does it. If a crime is committed then punishment must follow be it right away or after a given respite ends. There are no exceptions in set laws of God as already explained in case of miracles and laws of nature etc. You put your hand in fire it will burn. Mullahs have given wrong meanings to word ISTAGHFAAR. In quranic context it means to seek protection of God not his forgiveness. The idea is to do things which God says people should for ensuring well being of each other and they should not do things to each other from which God stops them. This is how people can protect themselves from hands or each other as a proper human community. This is why people must try their best to help each other in doing good for one another and they must not let each other do bad to each other. This is how the human community can stay safe and will not need any saviour after destroying itself by doing wrongs to each other. My explanations should make clear to people how they are made fools by ignorant people who claim to be religious leaders. This is why they need to educate themselves properly or keep suffering terribly painfully. There is no one coming to save anyone or to forgive any crimes people commit against each other for their petty personal gains at each other's expense. Such beliefs and practices are utterly false and are invented to make fools of people so that they remain put after wrong is done to them in hope that someone else will come and save them or will put things right for them.

It is people themselves who are supposed to keep their world the way they want it because the world is what people make of it all by themselves. God does not intervene in this world the way religious people believe it to be the case. So stop reading mullahs translations and interpretation of the quran and learn language of the quran to see how wrong people are about the quran. Deen of islam is very simple, be a community and work hard for ensuring well being of each other according to the best of your God given abilities and share the benefits appropriately. This is why there is no concept of joblessness or unemployment in deen of islam. It is because deen of islam is about helping each other to develop to full potential by actualising potentialities God has placed in people and not to prevent each other from progress and prosperity by placing obstacle and hurdles in each other's way. This is why religion and secularism cannot compete with deen of islam.

Now let us look at sunnah concept of mullahs and their foolish followers. They think muslims should act like the final messenger of God or copy him or imitate his actions. They have no sense to realise that if people follow a daily routine they become stuck with it therefore they cannot develop or make progress therefore they cannot prosper as a community and instead they stagnate and regress as rest of humanity moves on. Deen of islam tells us to go back in time for things which provide us basis for our future and that we must move forward in time so that we have a great future. The quran nowhere tells us to follow messenger of God in a way that makes us get stuck in the 7th century arabian desert. It instead it tells us to be on the top of the world by building a community based upon the model the quran provides for building such a community. The quran tells us how to create wealth properly and how to distribute it so that there is no one poor or weak in the proper human community. This is why there is no concept of charity for the poor in deen of islam instead all muslim are supposed to be in the very same boat. It is because each and every person belongs to God and each and every thing belongs to God. So no one is doing anything for anyone rather all are doing everything for sake of God whereby all benefit. In such a society all are humble and thankful to God that he has chosen them to help others for his sake. This is why an abled bodied person cannot look down upon a person with disabilities with disdain or as a burden on society. This is how trinity of rulers, money lenders and mullahs becomes fully exposed as axis of evil.

Next I hope to talk about position or status of hadith books, sunnah or praying to God to show why it is wrong to pray to God 5 times daily on fixed times.

why it is wrong to pray to God 5 times daily on fixed times .....Mughal.

I like that Mughal it saves lot of time of working class Muslim folks and less trouble at working places of other countries that do not prescribe to Islamic rules and logic., ., but you are making your life harder than needed to live good life dear Mughal..,

And do you know where all these Quranic statements/ calls/rules whatever to live human life come from?

do you know where all these "rules of DEEN AL ISLAAM" in Quran come from ??

They come from the statements of these books .....Torah_Genesis _ Exodus_ Leviticus_ Numbers _Deuteronomy_ etc..etc.........., off course they come in Arabic language.. Here read it in English

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https://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0.htm

Deuteronomy

Leviticus

https://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0201.htm

https://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/e0002.htm

Quran deen or Quran rules for human life come from those book dear Mughal., Quran rules are some filtered version of statements from those books

here are some statements straight out of those links

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1.I am the LORD thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me…………. Deuteronomy chapter5 verse 6

2 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, even any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth………… Deuteronomy chapter5 verse 7

3 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to draw thee away from the LORD thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage……….Deuteronomy 13 verse 11.

4. Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the third and upon the fourth generation of them that hate Me…….Deuteronomy chapter 5 verse 8

5. . Thou shalt not plant thee an Asherah of any kind of tree beside the altar of the LORD thy God, which thou shalt make thee. 22 Neither shalt thou set thee up a pillar, which the LORD thy God hateth. ....... .Deuteronomy chapter 5 verses 21 & 22

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6. Certain base fellows are gone out from the midst of thee, and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying: Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known'; 15 then shalt thou inquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in the midst of thee; 16 thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. 17 And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the broad place thereof, and shall burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, unto the LORD thy God; and it shall be a heap for ever; it shall not be built again ..............Deuteronomy chapter 13 verses 14 to 17

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7. The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire; thou shalt not covet the silver or the gold that is on them, nor take it unto thee, lest thou be snared therein; for it is an abomination to the LORD thy God.............. Deuteronomy chapter 7 verse 25

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8. There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, one that useth divination, a soothsayer, or an enchanter, or a sorcerer, 11 or a charmer, or one that consulteth a ghost or a familiar spirit, or a necromancer. 12 For whosoever doeth these things is an abomination unto the LORD; and because of these abominations the LORD thy God is driving them out from before thee ................Deuteronomy chapter 18. verse 10 to 12

9. A woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment; for whosoever doeth these things is an abomination unto the LORD thy God. {P}................Deuteronomy chapter 22 verse 5

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10. 22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to a husband, then they shall both of them die, the man that lay with the woman, and the woman; so shalt thou put away the evil from Israel. {S} 23 If there be a damsel that is a virgin betrothed unto a man, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; 24 then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die: the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife; so thou shalt put away the evil from the midst of thee. {S} 25 But if the man find the damsel that is betrothed in the field, and the man take hold of her, and lie with her; then the man only that lay with her shall die. 26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death; for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter. 27 For he found her in the field; the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her. {S} 28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, that is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29 then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he hath humbled her; he may not put her away all his days. {S} Deuteronomy chapter 22. verses 22 to 29

11. Not to make an idol even for others, as it is written "nor make to yourselves molten gods" ..............(Leviticus chapter 19 verse 4).

read more of Islamic Deen from those links of those original Abrahamic faith books., we must learn to read before writing on these so-called god's words and their origins. their history and the writers who penned then in the first place dear Mughal .. but we do have responsibility to educate our near and dear and our human community ..

with best wishes
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything

I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim

- Mughal
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
Reply #26 - October 31, 2020, 08:31 PM

Sources of deen of islam and their priority order in context of their importance.

The primary source of deen of islam is only and only the quran. Why? Because it claims to be word of God. There is no source in deen of islam which could contradict the quran. That is because all other books about deen of islam are written by people not revealed by God. Messengers of God are not Gods but ordinary people whom God chose for delivery of his messages to humanity. They are authority only because they acted upon messages of God that were revealed to them by God. None is authority in deen of islam over and above God or independent of message of God therefore any true hadis about messenger of God cannot be anti message of God this is why if any hadis report is said to be about messenger of God yet it is in conflict with the message of God then no way it can be a true hadis about the messenger of God. Someone for some reason has made a mistake or has falsely attributed it to the messenger of God. Reasons will be explained later on as to why anyone will attribute false hadis to the messenger of God. People have written books in which they have collected many false or faulty hadis reports. However such books are still being written because as time goes on people are becoming better informed therefore reviews of hadis reports continue just like reinterpretations of the quran.

Therefore ahaadis attributed to the messenger of God are secondary source of information about deen of islam provided they prove to be from the messenger of God. However no hadis report which is said to be about the messenger of God is acceptable against the quran. That is because the messenger of God is not expected to contradict what God has sent to him. Ahaadis are nothing but at most they are history of the time of messenger of God ie they are supposed to be about how the final messenger of God succeeded in accomplishing his God assigned mission. Which was to bring about an exemplary proper human community somewhere in the kingdom of God so that those who claim to support his mission generation after generation if they chose they too could bring about and maintain a proper human community in their own time and place as he did for ensuring well being of humanity through help and full support of each other. This is why all sources to date are of importance so that it could be seen clearly how people have lived their lives generation after generation from the time of the final messenger of God and whether they lived by the quran or not despite claiming to be muslims. Who is a muslims? Anyone who claims to be a muslim is a muslim so long as one lives by the quran.

What is meaning of living by the quran? It means doing as the quran requires for the purpose it has stated. This first and foremost means working hard for understanding the quran properly after one has received the quran. This means spending one's full time on this project after earning one's living or livelihood. Once one understands the quran properly as far as it is possible for a person in his own time then next duty of such a person is to pass on the quranic message as far as possible to as many people as possible so that if they also like the message of the quran then they too do the very same. This is how far an individual muslims has to go or can go. After that all those people who declare their faith in the message of the quran must come together and become a proper human community. This is the stage at which deen of islam becomes a community responsibility. Once enough people have accepted deen of islam and they have become a community the next stage in this process is to bring about a kingdom based upon guidance of God. Bringing about such a kingdom is absolutely necessary for the ummah because people have needs and wants and they cannot be fulfilled unless a people have a piece of land for its resources where in they could live as a people and fulfil their daily needs successfully as a proper human family under rule of law of one true God.

After bringing about the kingdom based upon guidance of God they must do all they can to maintain it properly so that it does not fall apart due to negligence or laziness or craziness of people or things will go back to almost square one. Once muslims have a kingdom based upon guidance of God they must do all they can to try to fulfil the purpose for which God has created them. Which is to appreciate God truly by exploring his kingdom as far as it is possible for them. This is what God has created human beings for ie to find out how great God truly is. By having a kingdom based upon guidance of God and therein having a great life due to full help and support of each other as a proper human community is true appreciation of message of God by mankind. This is what deen of islam is all about. This is why it has nothing at all to do with mullaan islam or islam of nonmuslims who do not or cannot go beyond criticism of mullaan islam. They do no service to God or humanity by getting stuck in nonsense discussions or debates. If anyone wishes to know deen of islam one must study the quran in depth on one's own as if the quran is revealed by God to the person oneself.

To bring about a proper human community in the kingdom of God before anything else people must know the quran properly to a degree that is necessary for bringing about the community the quran demands. It is because people who do not know the quran reasonably well they cannot convince people to come together for this purpose. However if people do decide to come together after the call to islam by people who claim to be muslims then they will need to organise and regulate themselves as a proper human community. For these purposes people need to first and foremost bring about a proper constitution so that the community could base itself upon that constitution and regulate itself by its laws. Where is this constitution going to come from? From the people (who want to be a community based upon the quran) in light of the revealed program and guidelines given in the quran as well as needs and wants of the proper human community and its memebers. This constitution and law is called shariah of deen of islam. All this should explain why muslims need hadis books as well as history books because in them they can find, at what time and in which place people who claimed to be muslims lived and whether they lived by the quran or they lived as they chose and misused the name of deen of islam. They also help to know how to bring about a proper constitution and how to legislate its laws as a community.

If any people lived by the quran then what was their constitution and its laws. Were those in line with the quran or did they contradict the quran and were in conflict with the quran? The quranic society or community is a very different kind of society or community than what we see all around us today. For example, it does not use any currency within the community because it does not need one. Why not? Because it is a single family of all the people who claim to be muslim and who live for ensuring well being of each other and not for petty personal gain at each other's expense. It is based upon idea of one for all and all for one. Things will be discussed in detail later on as we arrive at various stages. Meanwhile I will only explain how things are supposed to be structured in deen of islam. From this information it should be easy for anyone to see how islamic sources of information are related to each other in their own proper context. This is why no book can be used against its higher authority. I will explain how one can find out the truth in these books with help of certain rules. Since all books other than the quran are written by people for people about deen of islam they contain many errors or mistakes or deliberate falsehood so one has to be very careful in using information in them. To do so one needs to know some rules which can help one avoid getting misled by mixed information in them.

The quran is the only book of deen of islam that is revealed by God for mankind to live by. All other books in the world today are written by people. This fact can be verified by anyone by reading those books. Since the quran is the only book that claims to be a revelation from God therefore it occupies the topmost place of authority in deen of islam. This is why any book that contradicts the quran its contradictory statement are not acceptable in deen of islam at all. All other books in deen of islam are written by people therefore they are not equal to the quran at all. The quran is the criterion or benchmark or yardstick or standard whereby all other sources of information are to be judged by. The quran is a stand alone book in deen of islam. This is why if anyone uses any other source of information to condemn the quran then one cannot do that because the quran is the only primary source of information in deen of islam without any other higher or equal authority. Whether the quran is actual word of God or not will be explained later as to how to understand its verses and which points within the quran prove it word of God. This explanation is just for showing priority order of things in deen of islam.

Other sources of deen of islam are secondary sources and they play part in deen of islam in their own way and that is how they also can help understand deen of islam in their own way. Other sources of information are called hadis books. Since islam is a way of life and way of life is about living in the kingdom of God by rule of law of God therefore whatever we find in the hadis books about deen of islam stands and anything else is not that important as things related to rule of law of God are. This also explains the proper context of sunnah of the final messenger of God. The idea that anything the last messenger of God said or did or tolerated is a sunnah has nothing to do with deen of islam. Why not? It is because it is impossible to record all things anyone says or does in detail. If one does not believe this please try it out yourself by spending an hour with someone and report all that was said or done by that person to each and every second to each and every minute detail. Soon you will realise problems with this idea. One will soon realise the fact that important things are only those which are relevant to the mission of the messenger of God and not all his sayings and doings. We humans are not that attentive that we can capture each and everything in all its possible detail when someone says and does something. In fact when we are looking in the front we do not know what is happening behind us and likewise when we focus our hearing to listen to one person we cannot make out what anyone else is talking about. This is why reports about the messenger of God cannot be that reliable, particularly the one's that are not relevant to the mission of the messenger of God. This is why only such reports about the messenger of God are important to a degree which were to some degree related to deen of islam issues. Rest of reports are only extra information and that is also good if proves to be genuine according to a set criterion.

A messenger is sent by God on a mission so what is relevant to mission is important and not each and everything he says or does in his life. This is why people who bring in all sorts of things in the name of messenger of God and imitate them only waste their time during which they ought to be doing what needs to done, Doing irrelevant things take away time for doing relevant things ie you can only do one or the other. Since mission of messenger of God was to deliver the quran to people and call or invite them to deen of islam so he had to do that and then wait for their response to see if they will come together to form a proper human community in the kingdom of God or not. So the messenger of God delivered the quran to people and then waited for them to respond and they did. When he had enough people to form a community network he did that and then he kept expanding that community with the help of newcomers. This is how any movement starts and spreads if it has for them what people need or want. Sensible people come together and discuss things and try to understand what the movement is all about and where it is going to take them and how it is going to get them there. Saying certain words to enter a group or praying and fasting cannot be a movement to benefit anyone. This is the major difference between deen of islam and different versions of religion and secularism. Since the context in which islamic sources need to be looked at or into has been explained so no point in talking about irrelevant things or things that have nothing at all to do with deen of islam.

This should explain what is meant by sunnah of the final messenger of God in its proper context ie how he fulfilled his God assigned mission This is what supporters of his mission are supposed to be doing today. Therefore anything else people say or do has nothing at all to do with deen of islam or God or his book or his messenger.

Next I hope to explain why praying to God does not mean anything at all. Also what are meanings of some words used in the quran eg words like SAALIHAAT OR HASANAAT etc etc.

I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
- Mughal
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
Reply #27 - November 10, 2020, 05:16 AM

Deen of islam is anti religion and anti secularism but why?

It is because religion and secularism both are man-made and deen of islam is revealed by God to replace them. As I explained already, religion and secularism are almost as old as mankind themselves because mankind were not given guidance by God till human beings could understand things and some were able to make proper sense of it. Early humans learned what they learned from natural world because they did not have any other source of learning. This is why they lived just like other animals but as they interacted with each other and other things in their environment, they did learn a lot of sense but it was not enough to help them live in this world properly till God gave humanity his guidance. People did believe in a higher force or being even before God formerly introduced himself to mankind but they assumed a God who was just like their rulers who solved their problem the way it suited the rulers and not the way it suited people they ruled. The animal kingdom shows us our past very clearly and we are still like those animals even today. God sent revelation is still ignored by humanity at large for its proper understanding because rulers always interpreted the messages of God the way it suited them instead of trying to make proper sense of it. This is why due to lack of proper education humanity has been going through bloody revolutions every now and then to change things for the better. In other words people have been learning things the hard way instead of learning sense of making proper sense of things the right way. This is why despite having guidance from God and many messengers from God almost all people are still as ignorant and stupid about message of God as the very early human beings were who were given the message of God the very first time.

Messengers of God were sent by God to establish rule of law of God in this world and they succeeded in doing that but only in very limited areas and only for a short time because people turned back to their old ways of life after their God sent messengers passed away. The very same happen with the people who claim to be supporters of mission of the final messenger of God ie people who call themselves muslims. This is why even after the final messenger of God established the ummah in the kingdom of God it also fell apart not long after messenger of God because people failed to keep up with the maintenance of the ummah in the kingdom of God. This is why even though we have the quran we have no ummah but only in the name till humanity comes to its senses and learns the quran as it ought to be learned once again to reunite to regain unity, peace, progress and prosperity. This should help people understand why muslims are the way they are and this is not going to change till each and every person who claims to be a muslim starts learning the quran properly. This is why almost all people who claim to be muslims are religious muslims not actual muslims based upon the proper teachings of the quran and the reason is they do not study the quran as it ought to be studied for establishing an ummah in the kingdom of God. People who claim to be muslims are as ignorant about the message of God as any nonmuslim people. This is why muslims and nonmuslims are all living like animals in a jungle because that is how senseless people are supposed to live without proper guidance from God or without proper understanding of guidance from God. This is why the human world despite all its amazing inventions it has invented is still just like a kingdom of animals who still do not know how to live properly with one another and it will not know how to do that till it rediscovers message of God properly for itself because only and only message of God can ensure unity, peace, progress and prosperity of mankind in the kingdom of God and nothing else.

Why five daily prayers are wrong? It is because they are not stated in the quran. Why they are not stated in the quran? Because God did not create mankind to humiliate them just as he himself does not want to be called by bad names for he wants mutual respect between himself and mankind. Just as God wants to be appreciated by mankind so God himself appreciates mankind also. God is not a monster or tyrant or a cruel oppressor. This is why the whole process of creation of God needs to be looked at in a purposeful way in its entirety. This is why God rewards all for whatever part they play in his scheme of things. This is why God does not want pooja from mankind through empty lip service and useless ritual practices which benefit neither God nor mankind. He does not want empty lip service and flattering from mankind but actual appreciation from mankind by giving them things that truly make him appreciable for mankind. I will try and explain words a bit later as to what they mean in the proper context of the quran including word SHUKR from root SHEEN, KAAF and RAA which means appreciation by means of proper use of God given things. Moreover it makes no sense the way people pray to God or say thank you God without doing the actual thing God demands ie proper use of his provided things for benefit of mankind. God has told people what he wants of them in the quran. What God wants of people could not be known by people all by themselves unless God himself told them, this is why understanding the quran properly is absolutely necessary for mankind otherwise they can think and do all they like but it will not fulfil the purpose for which God has created and equipped mankind with all the tools and things to work with. This is why proper understanding of the quran cannot be ignored if people want to have a great life in here and in hereafter. This is why whatever people think and do in the name of God out side of the quran all by themselves is not valid at all in the eyes of God and it hardly benefits humanity itself.

So first of all let us see what so called praying to God involves. It has two parts. Part one involves praising God ie saying nice things about God to God as if to flatter God by paying lip service to God. Why I say lip service? It is because we humans do not try to learn things which could help us understand the quran properly so that we could know what God wants of us to think and do. This is why we do not do things God has told us to do and we do things which he has told us not to do. Yet we turn towards God and say things to God about God which do not mean any thing at all. Moreover God has created us to serve him by thinking and doing whatever he has asked us to think and do and not to make God our servant by asking God to do this or that and the other for us. We do this as if we are not workers or servants of God rather it is God who is our servant. God has created us for serving his purpose and not for God to serve our purposes which we have created in our own minds independent of God. The fact is, we humans have already been given by God each and everything we will ever need for doing our job assigned to us by God. This being the case, how right could people be in saying things to God about God or for asking him for favours? This will become clearer once I have explained this issue for people to help them understand it. In a way we are turning things upside down. Such like are the reasons as to why the quranic teaching is anti religion and anti secularism.

Regardless the other part of praying to God involves asking God each and everything we want from him ie we have a very long lists of our demands to put before God. All this is useless because God has already given humanity what it needs for fulfilling purpose of God for which he has created them. It therefore makes absolutely no sense to ask God for things which we already have from God including his guidance regarding proper use of those God given things for our benefits as a proper human community in the kingdom of God. So if after God has given things to us if we still do not have them then it is not because of God but because we have not learned the needed sense as to how to manage God given things properly as a proper human community in the kingdom of God so that none of us suffers and all of us have a good life. It is human beings who make one another suffer terrible by hands of each other due to our ignorance about our God assigned purpose of life. This explains why human beings cannot criticise God about things for which he is not responsible because he has made humanity itself responsible for thinking and doing things for one another. We also need to think that by asking God for doing things for us we are treating God as if he is our servant instead of we humans being servants or workers of God. We have turned each and everything God has told us upside down by misinterpreting his message. It is because we do not look at things objectively and purposefully in their own proper context. Our fault is we are not trying to understanding the real world realities in their proper context which is to look at things in light of revelation of God.

Our idea of education is very wrong in a way because we think education is all about knowing about things as to what they are or how they work and then copy that and do the same etc etc. If I learn how to make an aeroplane it does not teach me what is actual proper use of an aeroplane in a social context. Same is true if I make a medicine, This is why despite having loads of medicines we let people suffer terribly and then die because of our withholding medicines from each other deliberately, so where does that lead us? All because we think it is our individual copyright or our intellectual property etc etc. How can we be such stupid people when God has gifted us with all we have for the proper use of all of us? Did God claim any copyrights for giving us things we have? We did not invent anything out of nothing at all rather all we have was already there when we were born. We ourselves were created by God and things we have were also created by God. All we have done is dismantled God made things things and reassembled them the way they could benefit us. But when it comes to our benefits for doing that we have decided to withhold things from each other which only and only leads us to fights and wars with each other over those things which were not really our own to begin with rather they were given to us by God for serving his purpose which was to ensure well being of all human beings. This is why we need a way of life which helps us organise and regulate ourselves in a way that we end up ensuring well being of each other with help and full support of each other. This is where the quran provides us with an undisputable solid foundation if we could prepare ourselves for its proper understanding. We only dispute about the message of God because we ourselves have not learned to understand it properly. We choose such leaders as use us abusively against each other due to our own ignorance and stupidity. We use our available time in wrong things which lead us into more and more stupidity which in turn make us do more and more stupid things to each other and that is how human world keeps getting worse and worse instead of getting better and better. This is why what we need to learn about is proper way of life which helps us live in this world the right way ie the way God intended for us and for which he guided us through his message.

This is why no matter how much educated we become or no matter how many Phds we acquire so long as we remain confused about living properly in this world none of our inventions can help us live sensibly no matter how long we keep going along this path we have invented and imposed upon each other. For living properly in this world only and only God can help us do that but only if we let God do so by learning his message properly. So long as we will keep God out of our equation of life we will keep on making our lives hell and that is the context in which God talks in the quran regarding hell and paradise ie you live in this world the way God says then your life will become a paradise as a proper human community or you live any way you like then wait till you end up making your lives hell by quarrelling with one another. So what God is telling us is very clear that you live for ensuring well being of one another as a proper human community then soon you will have a great life in this world by your own hard works but if you will work against well being of each other then gradually your world will become a hellhole for yourselves. It is not God who punishes people but people themselves think and do all sorts of terrible things to each other for their petty personal gains at each other's expense and then complains and blame God for all that they themselves do to each other. This is why understanding the very first surah of the quran properly is very important and so are the very last surahs. God is praiseworthy because he has given people a way of life which could help them live a great life in this world as well as to have a great life in hereafter as a reward for it. This is why mankind must seek refuge in the way of life revealed by God for them and not follow way of life the shaitaan wants us to follow. I will talk about shaitaan and jinns and angels etc at some other time as to whast these words mean in the proper context of the quran. The quran was not revealed so that foolish people make fun of it and burn it but so that mankind learn sense from it and do what is told and have a great life experience in this world and so that then they could be rewarded also for their such hard works in hereafter as well.

This is why before people read the quran they need to prepare themselves for its proper understanding. One should be able to see from this explanation how silly arabs look when they fail to understand the quran. It is because the quran has its own language that is totally different from what arabs know. It is a higher level of use of human language by God which is purpose based and this is why none can bring a book like the quran. Till people enable themselves to think at a higher level the quran requires, they cannot understand the quran even if they are arabs. The quran teaches people that they are all workers as far as God is concern and if they will work for fulfilling the purpose God has created them for then their lives will become great but not otherwise no matter how hard they work and no matter how long they go down that way. As I have explained already, living by religion can lead humanity nowhere. Why not? Because religion has nothing at all to do with real world realities instead it is all about empty words and irrelevant ritualistic practices. People can sit and pray to God all they like but nothing can change because God has created this world on basis of cause and effect chain. This is why if one wants a child one has to go through a process whereby one can get a child. No matter how much one cries to God one will not get a child. This is not the way God has setup this universe and things in it to work. Likewise no hungry can get food unless one goes through the related process for getting food. God has set up systems and structure as well as he has dictated procedures and practices so none can get anything unless one understands the way laws of nature operate or control or govern the operation of the natural world and things in it.

If no version of religion can give us anything, can any version of secularism and to what degree? Yes, secularism can give us some things to some degree but not to the degree deen of islam can. Secularism can only give us things on basis of personal gains at each other's expense at the most and not on any other basis. It is because through idea of individualism people only and only work for themselves and not for each other or for ensuring well being of each other. In such a society only and only those people succeed who have what it takes to succeed and not those who are relatively less advantaged. This is why the more advantaged people take undue advantages of those who are less advantaged which creates a serious divide between those who have and those who have not ir rich and poor. This being the case as numbers of those who are less advantaged increases there comes about a terrible bloody revolution. This is why to avoid this situation the number of poor and the level of poverty is controlled fully by those who have or are powerful and wealthy through various tricks and mechanisms. This is what forces so called successful individuals to contribute to their societies to remain in positions of power and have wealth at their disposal. Therefore even if they contribute anything to their societies it is only because if they will not then people who have hard life will get upset and revolt or rise up against them and their set up system and topple it. So rich and powerful people have organised and regulated their societies to keep things under their control as much as they can but natural world is under control of set up systems and laws of God which keeps upsetting their artificially created balance always and forces change upon people be they powerful and rich or powerless and poor. This is why so far no human being has managed to control humanity fully and none ever will.

In other words God has set up this world in such a away that mankind can never take full control of it and take it totally in the wrong direction rather whatever people think and do will always lead the world in the right direction be it bit by bit or in very, very small steps. However God wants people to learn sense and move in the right direction quickly. It is a case of two babies who are put in two different environments. One is never sent to school and the other who is sent to school. One who is sent to school will learn things very fast due to being taught things compared to the one who has never been to school. Likewise people who will learn the quran properly will succeed and those who will not will move very, very slowly on this journey of learning or discovery. The while humanity by passes the quran this situation will prevail or continue till people turn to the quran for their guidance by learning the required or needed sense. This is why the quran is a proper teacher for mankind but this teacher has its own way of interacting with people. The quran is a teacher because it points out things for people to learn about them or that it acts as a stimulus for them to inspire or urge or encourage or motivate them. If we look at the process of teaching and learning as to how we are taught we will see it is the very same way. What a teacher does is, points out things for us to consider and then we ourselves try and figure them out in our minds in order to try and understand them. The very same applies in case of the quran ie it too brings different things to our attention for figuring them out the best we can. So thinking that the quran is a useless book is not the right way of looking at the quran because it is a very useful book for humanity once it is understood properly in its own proper context by mankind. The basic point the quran makes is, don't live for yourself or for each other but instead live for sake of fulfilling the purpose for which God has created you. This explanation clearly shows limitations of religion and secularism in comparison to way of life advised by God in the quran for humanity for living in this world properly. This is why no human can bring about a way of life like the one the quran suggests let alone any better way of life than the quran. This is why no human being can write a book like the quran even today.

This explanation clearly shows religion is invented and used by rulers and money lenders as scapegoat because where they fail to provide masses with what they need or want they could make excuses to them by saying things are in the hands of God so go and pray to God to put things right for you etc etc. Because masses do not realise things the way they should so they turn to religious leaders for solutions of their problem by God instead of turning to the book of God which shows them how to get out of this ruler, money lender and mullah invented confusion called religion. This leaves them totally vulnerable and open to abuse and manipulation by both leaders ie religious and secular due to confusion or trap they have create for masses. This is how the quran clearly exposes all kinds of governing systems people have come up with and have adopted so far, be it imperialism or dictatorship or authoritarianism or capitalism or communism or socialism etc etc. None of these can give people what the quranic governing system can give them. It is because all of these ideas are based upon personal gains for a few at the expense of all others. This is why one should be able to see why one has to study the quran in depth to get the hang of it. This clearly shows why islam is not and cannot be a religion. The so called religion islam has been invented by foolish mullahs on behalf of foolish rulers and money lenders to confuse people in the very name of one true God so that the real way of life called deen of islam could be hidden from the eyes of the uneducated masses so that that way masses could be used abusively by rulers and money lenders without any reaction or bloody revolution by the abused masses. This explanation should leave no doubt in minds of people as to what actual deen of islam really is. It has nothing at all to do with islam of rulers, money lenders, mullaans, their touts and supporters.

This explanation also explains very clearly that deen of islam is all about well being of humanity from the very beginning to the very end provided people understand it properly and adopt it faithfully. This is why deen of islam is from God for ensuring well being of humanity therefore it is about human society, its politics, its culture and its economics and it has nothing at all to do with prayers to God. It has its own governing systems, structures, procedures and practices. Deen of islam is all about people themselves organising and regulating themselves upon its basis for managing God given land and resources or means of production and distribution as a family for serving God and that is what the quran calls IBAADAH or serving one true God and this has nothing at all to do with pooja of God by people and their singing songs to God and doing nothing except rubbing their noses on the ground and waving their bottoms in the air and feeling good that they have done their part. Muslim cannot take over a people by sword unless forced to do so by nonmuslims because deen of islam is all about supporting each other for ensuring well being of each other and who in the right mind can oppose this idea that one needs to take up arms? It is always abusers and manipulators of humanity who benefit from abusing others who oppose deen of islam and that is why they impose fights and wars upon true muslims and that is the true position of actual deen of islam and true muslims if there are any. Muslims cannot need or want anything for themselves or others but only and only seek pleasure of their creator by doing works which he told them to ensure well being of whole of humanity with full help and support of each other. If one learns sense of making proper sense of things and then reads the quran, one will soon find out the quran is not a book from any human being but a book that is from out side of this world. However if people will not learn sense to make proper sense of the message of the quran then they will never know what the real message of God in the quran is.

However the more the people will ignore or avoid or neglect or abandon or desert the quran the more and more painful and agonising suffering will become norm for humanity by hands of each other over a longer period of time as a consequence. Such excuse is not valid for people that since people who claim to be muslims don't understand and use the quran properly so it has nothing to with nonmuslims. It is because God if there is one is God of all and everything and it is he who has sent his message for all so those who will learn and follow it properly will have a great life in here as well as in hereafter whereas those who will not will end up and remain in a terribly painful existence always by hands of each other no matter what. These are not threats by God but advance or fore warnings from God for sensible people to not to blindly follow each other into the hell hole which is dug by people themselves for themselves by not following advice of God at all.

Deen of islam is a true democratic system because it is a party-less system. What does that mean? It means power rests with rule of law of God as understood by masses who can then come together and appoint fully capable people into offices to serve them for God sake as all agree or consent to in order to fulfil the quranic program and objective as well as needs and wants of all members of proper human community. This system works like a referendum in which all discuss things and vote for each and every individual issue and the issue is decided on basis of proper understanding of the quranic and the real world realities as well as needs and wants of people as individuals by a simple majority or unanimity. In a way it is bottom up system as compared to people taking over each other by force or by tricks or deceptive mechanisms whereby they create a pyramid of power structure to abuse weaker people from among themselves. So when it comes to bringing about a proper human community in the kingdom of God, if people cannot understand the real world realities and the quran properly in the first place, could they bring about a proper human community or create a book like the quran all by themselves? The quran by making such points shows, it is book from outside this world ie not written by human beings. It is because human beings do not think the way the quran does. If they could our human world in no way could be the way it is right before our eyes. It will have been a paradise instead.

The case being as already explained the next point is, why will God tell people for praying to him when he does not answer their prayers as he ought to according to beliefs or imaginations of people? Moreover why will God set times for prayers of people? It is because even if praying was ok, people will only praise God when they got good things from God and will only seek help of God when they are in real troubles and truly need help of God. Not only that but if God asks people to do that then God ought to fulfil their demands or whatever they ask for otherwise why ask people for prayer to waste their time and energies in the first place? This is why it makes no sense to have five daily prayers at fixed times and with fixed wording for prayers because prayer should be depending on situations or circumstances of people themselves as individuals and as groups. Yet another point in this regard is, God has his own purpose and plan for creating us so if he listens to us or fulfils our demands then how can God carry out his own plan for fulfilling his own purpose? Moreover we each have our own conflicting demands because we are always in conflict with each other, so how can God please each and every one of us? So it makes sense for God to give us all his standard to live by so that we all could mould or bend or model ourselves according to him rather than trying to mould God to fit our demands according to our self created conflicting standards. When it comes to God, the quran and deen of islam; things only seem mysterious for us because we are ignorant about them in various ways. I have already explained why miracles cannot take place in this world the way people at large think what they think ie due to their lack of proper knowledge about things. This is why our laughing at the quran exposes our own ignorance and stupidity at most and by burning the quran we are throwing our own future into the hell of our own making by our own hands.

I will try and explain more things later, for now this should help people see where I am coming from and why, so I hope.

I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
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Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
Reply #28 - November 15, 2020, 03:46 AM

Long post. Maybe make one point at a time? JS

Don't let Hitler have the street.
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Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?
Reply #29 - December 31, 2020, 01:07 AM

So far I have explained only a few key points about why human beings face problems when they try to understand the quranic text. It should be therefore clear to all as to why humans must come to know things I am explaining before they could try to understand the quranic text. I am going to try and explain some more key points which hopefully will help people understand the quran properly.

When human beings write their books, they have in their minds purposes for which they write their books. The very same is true about God. It will be very foolish for us human beings to think that God will send us a book that has no purpose at all to serve. This purpose is or has to be guidance for humanity from God. Guidance about what? Information regarding why God created humans and all the rest and what things and people are supposed to do so that the purpose for which God has set up this stage could become fulfilled. Not only that but this information must also contain such information in it which proves the book God sent and not a human creation beyond any reasonable doubt.

By reading the quranic text we cannot fail to see that God does have a purpose for revealing his message. The purpose has been explained already ie God created his creation for his purpose according to his own plan so he gave people his messages to explain to them his program so that they carry it out faithfully for sake of goodness of humanity and God. No doubt therefore that it is the purpose that gives this book the quran its proper context. Once humanity has established properly a proper human community in the kingdom of God then both God and humanity will become very pleased with each other. Humanity will become very pleased with God because God has given it the needed guidance that will help it establish kingdom of God and God will be very pleased with humanity because people will have worked very, very hard to fulfil the purpose for which God has created it. This is how God and humanity will end up as if patting each other's back. All because God wanted to express himself and he wanted someone to appreciate him so he ended up creating things that he has created. This creation that we see is not necessarily the very first creation of God nor the very last. God uses word AALAAMEEN in the quran ie worlds. So there could be countless number of worlds, not this one alone.

Anyway the main point to realise for us human beings is that we human beings learn things by trial and error method. That is what we have been doing right from day we were born. This is when science started for us ie we interacted or experimented or played with things directly and learned from that and we have been building upon that knowledge always generation after generation. On our journey of discovery, as we first learn simple things that leads us to start making sense of more and more complex or difficult things be they about real world realities or revelation of God. Our amazement never comes to an end ie we always find something new to surprise ourselves.

The question now is, how to find the proper context of the quranic text? We can do that by reading the quranic text as a random text but we must try and remember whatever we read in it so that once we have read it for information in it the information is not forgotten or lost because we will have to connect the pieces of that information in such a way that it makes the best possible sense. In a way we are merely collecting data randomly but then we are going to arrange or organise the data in way that makes proper sense to us. It is a process like gathering data for statistical purposes and then setting it up the way it makes sense.

The quranic data will very clearly show that it is about a way of life for mankind. It tells people one way of life is right for them to live by and any other way of life is wrong because it will harm or destroy them due to being based upon idea of personal gains at each other's expense. The way of life mainly involves human society, its set up, its politics, its culture and its economics and all the rest is its detail. This is why if we take away these things from the way of life told in the quran then the quran serves no purpose at all for humanity. This is why to think deen of islam has nothing to do with politics or economics etc is not and cannot be proper understanding of the quranic message as already explained. The quranic text is like pieces of a complete jig-saw puzzle which need to be put together properly before the true picture becomes obvious to us. This involves a lot of very hard work by the pioneers and once they have done it from then on it will become just like any other teaching taught in schools etc. It has become hard only because people who were given the quran originally to spread it properly worldwide for their best future forgot its proper context themselves due to becoming slack in their duty to God and humanity after the passing away of the final God sent messenger. This is why it has become a huge task for mankind to rediscover its proper context from scratch again and it can be done if people put needed effort and hard work in it and they will when all else fails for them or when they run out of all nonsensical excuses.

Once the true message in the quran is decoded properly by individuals the book will become alive again but till then humanity has a huge task on its hand if they truly desire blissful, dignified and secure existence as a proper human community in the kingdom of God. The reason why they should work on the quranic text is because otherwise killings of people by people will not stop and terrible agonising human suffering will not come to an end. I became aware of lots of things about the quran during my endeavour for understanding the quran properly which I am sharing here for benefit of others. Rest is all up to individuals themselves. I will carry on doing what I can but if more and more people will get involved in this work, we will be able to get where we need to be much quicker and much easier. This will help cut down our painful suffering by hands of each other for so many in this world.

My work on the quran can help people know the purpose and context of the quranic text. However I am now going to explain how to build on that. For this the main rule is, the quran must be understood through the quran in light of real world realities. This means whoever reads the quran must be reasonably aware of the real world realities to a reasonable degree. The quranic text therefore must be interpreted rationally and not irrationally as mullaans have done for last 1400 years. This means one should have reasonably good knowledge of a human language, particularly in sense of words and their meanings as already explained in detail. It is because if one meaning of a word renders the quranic text contradictory or senseless then one has to try interpreting it with another meaning of the very same word. This is why if one is very limited in his vocabulary or has no sense of mechanism involved in word and their meanings then such a person cannot make proper sense of the quranic text just by knowing how to speak arabic language. The quran requires that any person who tries to understand it properly must know real world realities and all that is necessary to know about the human language otherwise one can forget it.

Once one has these capabilities as already explained then the next rule is very straightforward, which is knowing the structure of the quranic text. The structure of the quranic text is such that it discusses issues or things in an interactive way so that a person who reads the quran is forced to use his own brain to connect the dots or seemingly missing links. For example, we have been hearing that the quran tells its supporters to kill those who oppose it. It does but here is the catch, it also tells its supporters not to kill those who oppose it. Is this not a clear cut contradiction in the quran? No, it is not. Why not? It is because the quran also tells its supporters why ie why kill the kaafirs and why not to kill the kaafirs. This means God has given his reasons for people due to which and according to which people must act. This is why the quran must be read in its proper context. So there are reasons which allow or disallow killing of people by people. This is why we all take out anti social elements from circulation in our own societies. This is why we have armies, police, courts and prisons or death chambers etc etc. So if anyone tries to portray the quran as a book of war instead of peace then one has to justify one's such claims about the quran otherwise one proves oneself a clear cut fool or a senseless person.

While I am at it let me also explain the legal system of the quran. Quranic shariah is only that which is consistent with the quranic declared purpose and its related aims and objectives. Any other interpretation of the quran is neither acceptable nor can be proven true against the quranic context. The declared or assigned objective of God for humanity is that, it should bring about a human society in the kingdom of God which reflects greatness of God as well as greatness of humanity. It is because God is supposed to be great in the eyes of humanity due to giving human beings the best possible way of life to live by that cannot be paralleled or equalled by anyone ever. Likewise greatness of humanity in the eyes of God is supposed to be due to its such magnanimous efforts and hard works based upon its own freewill due to which people end up establishing a proper human community in the kingdom of God. This is how God will end up pleased with humanity and humanity will end up pleased with God. This is how God will be appreciated by humanity and humanity will be appreciated by God.

This is why quranic guidance or guidelines are absolutely necessary for humanity to follow for creating a proper constitution to base themselves upon as a proper human community in the kingdom of God and to legislate laws according to those aims and objectives for regulating themselves towards that end which God assigned for humanity. This is why no constitution and its laws can be taken as islamic which are not in line with the quranic program that is purpose based, the purpose for which God has created humanity and all the rest of the creation.

The next important point is to understand lawful and unlawful concept in deen of islam. In the proper quranic context it is not things that are lawful and unlawful but having or using them. For example, one cannot be right in asking whether a gun is halaal or haraam or lawful or unlawful. It is an absurd question because things cannot be lawful or unlawful. Is pig halaal or haraam is equally an absurd question. The right question is, is it legal to make or have or use a gun? If the reason for which one makes or has or uses a gun is right then to make or to have or to use a gun is legal or lawful or legitimate but if not then it is unlawful or illegal or illegitimate to make or have or use a gun. Likewise one can ask if something is halaal or haraam to make or have or use or do etc etc. Food can also be halaal or haraam ie legal or illegal in the similar context. Even eating cow or sheep or goat or camel meat can be haraam if the animal is not kept halaal way or gotten halaal way or killed halaal way etc etc. Meat that is rotten or gone off even if it was originally halaal will turn haraam due to being harmful or damaging or destructive for health.

These points I am explaining are very useful for proper understanding of the quranic text. This is how all the nonsense mullaans talk about should become very obvious for people of knowledge who wish to know the truth about things about deen of islam. The rest of people are themselves as bad as mullaans or even worse who show their ignorance by attacking the quran without having proper knowledge about it. Here let me also state the fact that to create a proper constitution or to form laws according to it, is right of the ummah as a whole and not right of any individual no matter how knowledgeable and wise one is. Moreover constitution and its laws must be relevant to the stage the ummah has reached in its God assigned mission ie is ummah just a block of people living in a land with other people as a minority or do they have a land where in they are a majority? As a minority ummah has different responsibilities and as a majority it has different responsibilities. Likewise while there is no ummah at all then individuals who support the quranic ideology have very different responsibilities. There responsibility is only to learn the quran properly and teach it others faithfully. Ummah only comes to being if individuals come together to form an ummah not otherwise.

While I am at it let me also explain the fact that in deen of islam all objectives and laws from God are permanent and not abrogate-able. However there are different laws for different situations or circumstances this is why idea of abrogation is not needed. Mullaans failed badly to understand this very important point therefore they created absurd idea of abrogations of the revelations of God as well. Not only that they also came up with idea of abrogation of some verses of the quran itself. The fact is, it was right of God to plan things as he wanted right from the start. So he decided what he will do for what sort of period of time. This is why each and everything happens only for a duration of time already decided by God so there is no need for God to abrogate anything.

I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
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Topic: Do humans have needed knowledge to discuss God, revelation and creation?

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OP - September 03, 2020, 02:56 PM

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