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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7740 - October 03, 2019, 09:19 PM

    You're wrong. They do think that Muhammad was at the origin of the Quran. Thanks to stop fooling people in this thread Wink


    I think you have an issue in understanding what one writes. That is probably your scholar training Smiley

    I will repeat : even people who admit Muhamad existed (and here I am of course not referring to muslim believers) admit to the fact that his story as told by muslim tradition is mostly legendary (so no revelation from an angel, no putting back an eye in its socket, no stopping of the course of the moon, no supply of water from a rock,etc,etc,etc).

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7741 - October 03, 2019, 10:42 PM

    As you do not understand I repeat :
    Quote
    even people who admit Muhamad existed


    All scholars in the field.

    Quote
    admit to the fact that his story as told by muslim tradition... is legendary.


    For scholars, Muslim tradition regarding Muhammad is not "revelation from an angel, no putting back an eye in its socket, no stopping of the course of the moon, no supply of water from a rock..."
    At all. They (never) consider Muslim tradition the way you do it.
    For scholars, Muslim tradition regarding Muhammad is the narrative of Muhammad as being (one way or another) the producer of the Quran.
    They do think that Muhammad was at the origin of the Quran. Thanks to stop fooling people in this thread (again). Wink

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7742 - October 04, 2019, 09:47 AM

    what is happening here?  understanding problem?... language problem??.. French problem? English Problem??  but it is interesting to read what Marc_S &  Alatra are posting at each other and at early Islamic history...

    so Marc says....
    I think you have an issue in understanding what one writes. That is probably your scholar training Smiley

    I will repeat :   ...even people who admit Muhammad existed  (and here I am of course not referring to muslim believers  but academic scholars of Islam ) admit to the fact that his story as told by muslim tradition is mostly legendary...... (so no revelation from an angel, no putting back an eye in its socket, no stopping of the course of the moon, no supply of water from a rock,etc,etc,etc). ....

    And Altara says  2points in response to that
    As you do not understand I repeat :

    1). All scholars in the field.

    Quote
    Marc:  "For scholars, Muslim tradition regarding Muhammad is not "revelation from an angel, no putting back an eye in its socket, no stopping of the course of the moon, no supply of water from a rock..."

    1. At all. They (never) consider Muslim tradition the way you do it.

    2. For scholars, Muslim tradition regarding Muhammad is the narrative of Muhammad as being (one way or another) the producer of the Quran.

    3). They do think that Muhammad was at the origin of the Quran.

    Thanks to stop fooling people in this thread (again). Wink


    *******************************************************************
    well that sounds better.,   but I hope I get them right here

    So Marc says ....
    Quote
    Almost all Academic Scholars of Islam/Islamic history  DO NOT BELIEVE  "revelation from an angel Gabriel to Muhammad(PBUH)


    and Altara thinks .,
    Quote
    Marc's understanding of what Academic scholars think about Islamic history is wrong   

    and..and  All / almost all of the Academic scholars of Islam consider

    ......Muhammad..The prophet of Islam existed and he was center piece in the origins of Islam and and He was the producer of Quran  and..and  he was/ he might have been  in the middle of Quranic sayings/publications .....
    .



    Did I get that right from you guys??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7743 - October 04, 2019, 11:05 AM

    Quote
    Did I get that right from you guys??


    You got my statements, yes.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7744 - October 04, 2019, 01:39 PM


    Did I get that right from you guys??


    No regarding my thinking.

    I was answering to your question that was :

    can you write one post  on Prophet of Islam and his life ??  his parents .. his wives.. his kids.. his wars and his death.....  starting with  his name before he became Prophet??

    The answer is no because even people who admit he existed and are scholars agree that his story as told by the muslim tradition is mostly legendary ; I quoted the miracles events but it does apply to the details of his life that you asked for also. So nothing to do with Altara's hallucinations as it was not your question.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7745 - October 04, 2019, 02:04 PM

    Quote
    The answer is no because even people who admit he existed and are scholars agree that his story as told by the muslim tradition is mostly legendary


    You still fool this forum.
    1/For scholars, Muslim tradition regarding Muhammad is the narrative of Muhammad as being (one way or another) the producer of the Quran.
    2/Scholars do think (they state it regularly),  that Muhammad is (one way or another) at the origin of the Quran.
    3/ In thinking so, scholars follow Muslims tradition i.e the story of  Muhammad, they do not consider Muslim tradition as a legend like you pretend they do.Muhammad as recounted by Muslim tradition is always their starting point about the emergence of the Quran.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7746 - October 04, 2019, 03:24 PM

    Yeezevee question was not about the item you are mentionning and I only replied to his question ; the controversy you are trying to raise is off topic (as usual).

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7747 - October 04, 2019, 04:24 PM

    I just quote what you write which is fuzzy, therefore imprecise. The topic is sufficiently complex that you do not add nonsense...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7748 - October 04, 2019, 05:00 PM

    Yeezevee question was not about the item you are mentionning and I only replied to his question ; the controversy you are trying to raise is off topic (as usual).


    No...no..nooo.  the question I raised and posts you & Altara responding are WITHIN THE TOPIC dear Marc., let me explain you "how it is so"  ., True ..I did ask you questions ...,
    I know you are heckling Altara  dear Marc ... mutli laugh emoticon ...  I am just saying "every deduction is unsatisfactory and questionable" and that goes to you ,,Gallez,,, and many others even to late Patricia crone.,

    Quote
    Marc you have posted some 500 posts are so   .. can you write one post  on Prophet of Islam and his life ??  his parents .. his wives.. his kids.. his wars and his death.....  starting with  his name before he became Prophet??

    please post that at  https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22184.0  
    or at  https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16106.0


    I also said .........please post that response in folders i mentioned above ..  but you choose to respond in this folder*(THAT IS OK)  but but you answered vaguely ..

    the question was about Muhammad Prophet of Islam and his personal life .. but what you said here was this  
    Let me clarify : I believe that the prophet figure was built by :

    - taking things from living persons at the time i.e. the Aisha story must have derived from a caliph who wanted to have sexual relationship with under-age girls,

    - traits of Jewish prophets were also used to build that prophetic figure of Muhammad  ; the healing performed on one of his companion who had his eye popping out of his socket at the battle of Uhud looks like Jesus' healings abilities (though at the same battle, Muhammad was unable to heal his own forehead wound  .....many lols....)

     which essentially tells me that  .."PROPHET OF ISLAM THAT IS DEPICTED BY EARLY HISTORIANS(ISLAMIC OR NON ISLAMIC) DID NOT EXIST.., which is  similar to what Altara saying .,

    but then here you said
    Quote
    I will repeat :   ..........even people who admit Muhammad existed  (and here I am of course not referring to muslim believers  but academic scholars of Islam ) admit to the fact that his story as told by muslim tradition is mostly legendary...... (so no revelation from an angel, no putting back an eye in its socket, no stopping of the course of the moon, no supply of water from a rock,etc,etc,etc). ....


    see there you are evading the point about "Historical Muhammad  figure "  ..   and saying

    ............even academic scholars of Islam  who admit Muhammad existed     admit to the fact that his story as told by muslim tradition is mostly legendary...... (so no revelation from an angel, no putting back an eye in its socket, no stopping of the course of the moon, no supply of water from a rock,etc,etc,etc). .........

    I mean common if academic scholars believe  that Voodoo  stuff  ...........angels,   eye in its socket,    moon breaking .. flying night journey on Barak ...  CLEARLY THEY ARE STUPIDS..........  you can not call them as scholars .,  

    don't you think you are off the topic  there??  All this discussion is about.... "EARLY ISLAMIC HISTORY STARTING FROM PROPHET OF ISLAM"......

    *****************************************************************

    So if you don't believe Muhammad ..Prophet of Islam existed .....then ....

    why you bring Non Muslim Historians such as Sebeos  that 7th-century Armenian bishop and historian mentioning name "Muhammd" on to the table in your posts ??

    Anyways..,  So Marc., again

    You too do not believe in a person  "Muhammad.. Prophet of Islam " that is depicted in Quran as well as in Haidth  did exit....

     in other words "Muhammad(PBUH)   was a  figure head of Islam did not exist as person but   a story" ..  that is what you believe....  right??

    Again please correct me If understood your posts wrong........

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7749 - October 04, 2019, 06:20 PM

    Quote
    .something on Prophet of OT & NT and their wives.. ages of their wives etc..etc .


    You already asked me what OT and NT say on polygamy. I told you that I know the OT has polygamy of the prophets. And I dont think the NT mentions polygamy, no condemnation, no defense.

    I think mainstream Judaism has left polygamy under influence of Western Christianity.  We know Yemenite Jews remained polygamous. Even now, Judaism is struggling with polygamy, just because of the prominent role of polygamy in the OT. https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-defiance-of-israeli-law-polygamy-sanctioned-by-top-rabbis/

    I think mainstream Christianity adopted monogamy under influence of reasoning by church fathers about natural law. Reasoning is possible here just because there is NO mention in the NT.

    That is the big difference with Quran. Polygamy/concubinage is clearly allowed in the Quran and the tradition portrays Mohammed proudly as a polygamist

    Again, I am trying to objectively state the facts here. I am sure many Muslims (and maybe the orthodox Jews of the article too?) think polygamy is a good thing. Just like probably the 7th C muslims thought it was a great idea. Look how successful their model was...they conquered an empire.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7750 - October 04, 2019, 06:51 PM

    I think mainstream Christianity adopted monogamy under influence of reasoning by church fathers about natural law. Reasoning is possible here just because there is NO mention in the NT.

    I’d say that Christian monogamy just comes from conforming to Roman and Greek custom. I think church hierarchies outside the empire would have had some problems with enforcing monogamy on their congregations. I don’t think it’s that odd that a religious movement rejecting church hierarchies should have also rejected their doctrine on monogamy. I suppose it could be seen as an indication of origins outside the empire, somewhere where elites hadn’t been romanised.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7751 - October 04, 2019, 07:42 PM

    Zeca,

    Quote
    I’d say that Christian monogamy just comes from conforming to Roman and Greek custom


    I think that is too simple. Why didn't Judaism conform to Roman and Greek law and Christianity did? I am sure Greek/Roman law played a role but its not sufficient to explain why Christianity in East and West grosso modo condemned polygamy.

    Here is the book Sean Anthony recommended: https://books.google.be/books?id=ff1TDwAAQBAJ&lpg=PP1&pg=PA172&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=polygamy&f=false

    p179 shows 6th and 7th C examples of Eastern Christians (outside of Roman legal frame) contracting monogamous marriages according to church law.


    And all this well before Aquinas with his Summa Theologiae summed it all up in 13thC: http://www.newadvent.org/summa/5065.htm

    Quote
    I don’t think it’s that odd that a religious movement rejecting church hierarchies should have also rejected their doctrine on monogamy.


    I don't think it is odd either that monogamy was rejected. And I don't think it is an indication of the origin of the new religion being outside the romanized empire. The attraction of acquiring lawful polygamy was probably much higher in the empire where polygamy was previously forbidden than where it was already allowed. And once some men start applying it, others will quickly get ideas and want to follow and enjoy what all of a sudden is no sin anymore, but their divine right. That is human nature.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7752 - October 04, 2019, 07:49 PM

    in other words "Muhammad(PBUH)   was a  figure head of Islam did not exist as person but   a story" ..  that is what you believe....  right??


    100% spot on

    Quote
    why you bring Non Muslim Historians such as Sebeos  that 7th-century Armenian bishop and historian mentioning name "Muhammd" on to the table in your posts ??


    There is no contradiction here ; the mentions about Muhammad in Sebeos writings could be a later interpolation and not written by Sebeos or the guy refered to like that ; it doesn't mean the rest is wrong ; we don't have the original manuscripts of the chronicle of John of Nikiu for example ; existing manuscripts mention the word muslim and this is impossible for something allegedly written in the 7th century so those writings were altered but it doesn't mean that everything was altered ;  you just need to bear that in mind when reading it.

    Quote
    see there you are evading the point about "Historical Muhammad  figure "  ..   and saying


    I am not evading nothing but I am giving my opinion about Muhammad and opinion is not a fact ; this is the reason why I mention the scholars who believe Muhammad existed but see his life as legendary  ; this still prove my point and my point is you cannot sort out the truth from the lies from Muhammad story as told by muslim tradition (except for the super natural stuff) ; therefore, I cannot write about his life, his parents, his friends, etc,etc,etc and no one can or only by making assumptions through different methods that in fact are just OPINION and INTERPRETATION.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7753 - October 04, 2019, 07:52 PM

    I just quote what you write which is fuzzy, therefore imprecise. The topic is sufficiently complex that you do not add nonsense...


    You are adding non sense by raising an issue I didn't mention. Don't include me in it. Thanks.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7754 - October 04, 2019, 08:06 PM

    I think that is too simple. Why didn't Judaism conform to Roman and Greek law and Christianity did? I am sure Greek/Roman law played a role but its not sufficient to explain why Christianity in East and West grosso modo condemned polygamy.


    The spread of early Christianity was mainly based on conversion by gentiles, and I’d say that’s how they came to bring in assumptions that weren’t based in Judaism.

    Quote
    Here is the book Sean Anthony recommended: p179 shows 6th and 7th C examples of Eastern Christians (outside of Roman legal frame) contracting monogamous marriages according to church law.


    Eastern Christians were taking a framework that had developed inside the empire and applying it elsewhere. I’m not suggesting that any form of mainstream Christianity would have approved of polygamy, just that churches might sometimes have had difficulties in enforcing doctrine on ordinary believers (as they often have in many modern African countries).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7755 - October 04, 2019, 08:32 PM

    Quote
    The spread of early Christianity was mainly based on conversion by gentiles, and I’d say that’s how they came to bring in assumptions that weren’t based in Judaism.


    If the NT had specifically allowed polygamy or made Christ a polygamist with concubines, I doubt that Christian theology would have developed  monogamy requirements. That leap would have been too big as Islam shows us.

    And what about concubinage? I guess Roman/Greek law allowed that? Christianity didnt bring in that assumption... Shows there is something different in play here. Texts matter.  And I think womenkind should be thankful that the NT didn't set up any polygamy/concubinage rules.

    But of course, that is just my humble opinion. Plenty of people (women and men) think the polygamy/concubinage verses don't pose any problem and are just fine.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7756 - October 04, 2019, 08:44 PM

    And what about concubinage? I guess Roman/Greek law allowed that?


    Yes, as I understand it. So it wasn’t quite monogamy as we’d recognise it.

    Quote
    Christianity didnt bring in that assumption... Shows there is something different in play here.


    Agreed. It was Christianity’s own innovation along with much else about sexuality, celibacy and so on. I’m not sure how far you could find a basis for any of this in the NT (except maybe opposition to divorce?).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7757 - October 04, 2019, 09:03 PM

    Quote
    I’m not sure how far you could find a basis for any of this in the NT (except maybe opposition to divorce?)


    I agree that there is no a lot of direct basis in the NT for monogamy and anti-concubinage (I stated that from beginning). The NT excels in NOT having laws. That makes it different from OT and Quran. NT allowed sufficient room for reasoning and development of more humanistic guidelines over the centuries without being dragged back to the 1st or even further. Concerning polygamy, the church fathers (or whoever was at the basis of Christian doctrine), seemed to have found sufficient inspiration to move away from it (against self interest?  Huh? ) Remarkable evolution I think.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7758 - October 04, 2019, 09:14 PM

    The church fathers (or whoever) were writing in Greek. To be doing that they must have been part of an educated or semi-educated section of Roman society. It seems natural enough to me that they would conform to Roman ideas on monogamy.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7759 - October 04, 2019, 09:33 PM

    Why would every educated Greek/Latin writing theologian just take over Roman law on monogamy and not on concubinage? Why do you think they would not challenge Roman law if they really thought polygamy of the OT should be defended? Remember these guys were very serious about the OT.

    What is so specific about Roman monogamy that it would have such an overwhelming effect on these often non-Roman theologians and make them adapt it? Apparently the  influence of the Roman/Christian monogamy had zero effect on the Arabs/muslims when they entered these Christian/Roman lands. The proto-muslims just discarded these laws happily, and took on polygamy.

    I'm not saying churchfathers were not in the slightest influenced by the Roman mores, but I cannot believe it was the decisive factor. Plenty of occasion (centuries) to fall back to the OT position of polygamy/concubinage. But that didnt happen (see Aquinas)

    On top of that, you have Syriac writing church fathers.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7760 - October 04, 2019, 11:17 PM

    Interesting Sinai semi Introduction.
     https://www.academia.edu/40519397/Rain-Giver_Bone-Breaker_Score-Settler_All%C4%81h_in_Pre-Quranic_Poetry_New_Haven_American_Oriental_Society_available_online_at_http_lockwoodpressonline.com_index.php_ebooks_catalog_book_AOSEssay15_

    "The geographical origin of the quranic corpus has been a longstanding bone of scholarly contention. While John Wansbrough’s pioneering proposal that the Quran may only have reached closure in the “sectarian milieu” of ninth-century Mesopotamia is hardly a viable hypothesis anymore, scholars like Patricia Crone, Stephen Shoemaker, and Mark Durie have continued to highlight aspects of the Quran or its relationship to earlier traditions that are more easily explained by placing the Quran’s genesis further north than posited by Islamic sources.
     Nonetheless, as I have argued elsewhere, a suitably adapted version of the Quran’s traditional scenario of origin, including its customary dating to the beginning of the seventh century, is well equipped to account for most of the relevant evidence, even if some loose ends remain.
     Aspects of the Quran that chime well with a peninsular context of emergence include, for instance, the quranic references to the performance of animal sacrifices and the names of the deities catalogued in Q 53:19–20 and 71:23, including the trio Allāt, al-ʿUzzā, and Manāt, who were the objects of pagan Arabian cults.

     Moreover, Peter Webb and Walid Saleh have recently once more reminded us of the pivotal position of Arabian space and lore in the Quran.

    The subtitle of a dissertation on the Quran that was defended in 2017 by Suleyman Dost (“Towards a Theory of Peninsular Origins”) aptly expresses this renewed scholarly appreciation of the Arabian environment in which the Islamic scripture inscribes itself.
     Two key categories of evidence about the religious life and literary culture of pre-quranic Arabia are epigraphy and pre-Islamic Arabic poetry. The importance of the former for understanding doctrines and practices critiqued by the Quran has lately been highlighted ..."

    Wink

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7761 - October 05, 2019, 09:15 AM

    ^Some comments: https://mobile.twitter.com/Mahgraye/status/1180170288601980933

    The full article is here: http://lockwoodpressonline.com/index.php/ebooks/catalog/view/AOSEssay15/16/135-1
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7762 - October 05, 2019, 11:17 AM

    As the Introduction is not complete, it is imprudent  to have a final opinion. Chabbi is a great believer; it seems to be the sole common point between her and Sinai.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7763 - October 05, 2019, 11:33 AM

    Ah thanks zeca I did not see that you've post the url book... Wink
    If you have tthe Sinai one about the Quran, do not hesitate to post it Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7764 - October 05, 2019, 11:46 AM

    Interesting Sinai semi Introduction.
     https://www.academia.edu/40519397/Rain-Giver_Bone-Breaker_Score-Settler_All%C4%81h_in_Pre-Quranic_Poetry_New_Haven_American_Oriental_Society_available_online_at_http_lockwoodpressonline.com_index.php_ebooks_catalog_book_AOSEssay15_

    "The geographical origin of the quranic corpus has been a longstanding bone of scholarly contention. While John Wansbrough’s pioneering proposal that the Quran  may only have reached closure in the “sectarian milieu” of ninth-century Mesopotamia is hardly a viable hypothesis anymore, scholars like Patricia Crone, Stephen Shoemaker, and Mark Durie have continued to highlight aspects of the Quran or its relationship to earlier traditions that are more easily explained by placing the Quran’s genesis further north than posited by Islamic sources.............

    Hmm that "ALLĀH   word  in "pre-Islamic Quran poetry" is a good one .,

    and and I wonder about the word "Muhammad"??.....
     
    hello Altara.....    what do you get out of those highlighted words from Nicolai Sinai ??
    Quran book closure in the “sectarian milieu” of ninth-century Mesopotamia??  ..  9th century?  what year 880?? 890??

    good stuff good stuff here
    http://www.academia.edu/Documents/in/Islam


    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7765 - October 05, 2019, 12:10 PM

    You already asked me what OT and NT say on polygamy. I told you that I know the OT has polygamy of the prophets. And I dont think the NT mentions polygamy, no condemnation, no defense.

    yes I did dear mundi ..lol.. well I am like Quran .. I repeat and repeat same stuff., 

     Well NT says........ "  all the stuff in OT.. OT Prophets their life styles  are   gods rules for prophets and prophetic words that we see in OT   and hence All Christians should follow OT  religious edicts" .. So some good Christians will follow OT rules... Are they wrong .. for e.g ...present Mormon  community ...    Are Mormons are not Christians??
    Quote
    I think mainstream Judaism has left polygamy under influence of Western Christianity.  We know Yemenite Jews remained polygamous. Even now, Judaism is struggling with polygamy, just because of the prominent role of polygamy in the OT. https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-defiance-of-israeli-law-polygamy-sanctioned-by-top-rabbis/

    I think mainstream Christianity adopted monogamy under influence of reasoning by church fathers about natural law. Reasoning is possible here just because there is NO mention in the NT.

    No..Nooo.. we are talking about  Christians  Christianity .. Jews and Jewish rules of Quranic times...

    Quote
    That is the big difference with Quran. Polygamy/concubinage is clearly allowed in the Quran and the tradition portrays Mohammed proudly as a polygamist

    True..  may be those guys(the writers of Quran) got it /extracted from old OT & NT .  and and . made it as word of allah/god..     And and  now a days Christian and Jewish theological opponent  of Islam  blaming Arab pagans of that time for what is there in Quran with reference to bedroom rules  Cheesy

    Quote
    Again, I am trying to objectively state the facts here. I am sure many Muslims (and maybe the orthodox Jews of the article too?) think polygamy is a good thing. Just like probably the 7th C muslims thought it was a great idea. Look how successful their model was...they conquered an empire.

    I would change that to " many MALE Muslim SCOUNDRELS  (and maybe the orthodox Jews of the article too?) think polygamy is a good thing.  Cheesy

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7766 - October 05, 2019, 12:45 PM

    Quote
    many MALE Muslim SCOUNDRELS  (and maybe the orthodox Jews of the article too?) think polygamy is a good thing.


    Haha, can't really agree to that. I think a lot of averagely good/bad  muslim men think polygamy is a great idea because of the example of Mohammed and the Quran. I believe education influences people. If these average people were educated in a faith prohibiting polygamy, they would not defend the practice and go for it when the possibility arises.

    Quote
    So some good Christians will follow OT rules


    Yes, a famous experiment with the return of polygamy bc in OT are the anabaptists. So that makes it so remarkable that ME 6th-7th C mainstream Christianity already turned away from the practice (see my previous posts and Sean Anthony's comment). Plenty of avenues possible to apply the OT, and yet they didn't. Zeca would say it's bc of the Romans and Greeks which they preferred over the OT...

    Quote
    Well NT says........ "  all the stuff in OT.. OT Prophets their life styles  are   gods rules for prophets and prophetic words that we see in OT   and hence All Christians should follow OT  religious edicts"


    You read the NT as you read the Quran. Apparently the mainstream Christian theologians read it differently.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7767 - October 05, 2019, 12:55 PM

    Haha, can't really agree to that. I think a lot of averagely good/bad  muslim men think polygamy is a great idea because of the example of Mohammed and the Quran. I believe education influences people. If these average people were educated in a faith prohibiting polygamy, they would not defend the practice and go for it when the possibility arises.

    Yes, a famous experiment with the return of polygamy bc in OT are the anabaptists. So that makes it so remarkable that ME 6th-7th C mainstream Christianity already turned away from the practice (see my previous posts and Sean Anthony's comment). Plenty of avenues possible to apply the OT, and yet they didn't. Zeca would say it's bc of the Romans and Greeks which they preferred over the OT...

    You read the NT as you read the Quran. Apparently the mainstream Christian theologians read it differently.


    mundi .. dear mundi we are moving away .. far far away.. the subject in the folder is "Qur'anic studies today"., we need to discuss that  (( what I read how I read))in different folder .,  and  you got that right in those highlighted words.,   I read ALL SO-CALLED RELIGIOUS BOOKS in the same way....

    they are NOT word of god/s... they are books.. books of their time...  and i deleted the words in your post that i disagree with ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7768 - October 05, 2019, 01:40 PM

    So going back to that Quranic studies Ahsan Mirza publication on "Pre-Islamic Arabic Poetry: A Prologue" is interesting in its own right

     
    Quote
    ....... Literature has a greater role in the unity, pride,dignity and development of a nation. tripped from its literary heritage, a nation will be directionless and frustrated. As Goethe said that the decline of literature is actually the decline of a nation.  Vico, the philosopher of history, says that to know the real culture of a nation we must know its language and literature. Literary history helps us to understand the national development of a civilization and culture through its literature, as it developed in different literary periods

    Over the centuries, poetry enjoyed a unique position amongst the Arabs. It was the
    diwan('record)of the Arabs and it occupied the first place among the Arabian arts. It was held in so high  esteem that the Arabs in pre-Islamic days used to hang some of the outstanding poems, knownvas the (Muallaqat’ ), on the walls of the *kaaba because of their distinct features.

    In pre-Islamic days, the poet himself enjoyed a high place in his tribe which used to celebrate the appearance of a poet, because he would defend it with his poetry and enhance its position among the tribes by singing its glories and belittling its enemies by his satire. The poet used to be surrounded by circles of tribal audience in the same fashion as audiences might gather nowadays in front of television sets. The poet often reached the position of the chief of the tribe itself


    reading that  Quran  . Ash-Shu'araa surah with some   227 verses   The Poets  gives some historical insight  and importance of poetry in Arabian peninsula

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #7769 - October 05, 2019, 02:04 PM

    Quote
    Hmm that "ALLĀH   word  in "pre-Islamic Quran poetry" is a good one .,

    That it was "pre-Islamic Quran poetry"  was what Muslim polygraph have written down in the 9th c. is a conjecture. One does not knows it. One have no sources just to trust them. I do not (yawn...)
    Why? Simply because they are circumvented/hypnotised by the story of their "Prophet". And as the Quran speak of poetry...

    Quote
    and and I wonder about the word "Muhammad"??.....


    There is one or two occurrences of the name in the peninsula in other script than the Quranic one identified by Dost. I review the Dost dissertation in my work and deal with each of his affirmations.
     
    Quote
    hello Altara.....    what do you get out of those highlighted words from Nicolai Sinai ??
    Quran book closure in the “sectarian milieu” of ninth-century Mesopotamia??  ..  9th century?  what year 980?? 990??


    He highlighted those words of Wansbrough. The Quran book closure in the 9thc appears to be late as one have MS' (incomplete) from the beginning of the 8th .c (but it is still conjecture as one cannot date them precisely). Sinai says that the 9th c. Wansbrough' considering that is too late. He his right about this.
     9th century is 800 to 900.
    Iraq (from the Gulf/East peninsula to Edessa) is of course the place where emerged Quranic texts.
    Not Western peninsula, neither the centre, Yemen, etc.
    Yemen has another cursive script. Wink
    Unless that there was a lost text written in the cursive yemeni script . It is possible Wink
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