Qur'anic studies today

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- yeezevee
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Reply #6300 - March 23, 2019, 05:04 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on March 23, 2019, 03:26 PM
...BUT IT IS IRRELEVANT w.r.t this W.R.T advancing the Hypothesis of John Wansbrough .....

well i am using "John Wansbrough" name quite often ... so let me add some of his Stellar work here..

John Edward Wansbrough (February 19, 1928 – June 10, 2002) was an American historian who taught at the University of London's School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS).

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By his fundamental criticism of the historical credibility of the classical Islamic narratives concerning Islam's beginnings and his attempt to develop an alternative, historically more credible version of Islam's beginnings, Wansbrough founded the so-called "revisionist" school of Islamic Studies. Wansbrough began studying early Islamic manuscripts and the Quran. He realized that the early Islamic texts addressed an audience which was familiar with Jewish and Christian texts, and that Jewish and Christian theological problems were discussed. Criticism of "infidels" was addressed obviously to monotheists who did not live monotheism "purely".[1]

These observations did not fit to the Islamic narratives on Islam's beginnings which depicted Islam to come into being within a polytheistic society. Wansbrough analyzed the classical Islamic narratives which had been written 150 to 200 years after Muhammad with the historical-critical method, especially literary criticism. Thus, he claimed countless proofs that these texts are not historical accounts but later literary constructions in the sense of the concept of a "salvation history" (Heilsgeschichte) of the Old Testament. Their historical core is meager and cannot be detected.[2]

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On this basis, Wansbrough developed the theory that Islam did not come into being as a new religion on its own but derived from conflicts of various Jewish-Christian sects. The Quran was written and collected in a long process over 200 years and thus cannot be attributed to Muhammad. The person of Muhammad would be a later invention, or at least Muhammad cannot be related to the Quran. For later times, Muhammad had only the function to provide an own identity to the new religious movement according to the role model of a Prophet of the Old Testament.[3]

This line of research was investigated in Egypt by Nasr Abu Zayd but he was expelled from Egypt because of his conclusions about the Qur'an. Students and scholars who doubt the traditional view of the genesis of the Quran as well:

Michael Cook
Patricia Crone
Martin Hinds
Gerald Hawting
Christoph Luxenberg
Gerd R. Puin
Andrew Rippin

CRYSTALLIZATION OF THE QURAN: AN ANALYSIS OF JOHN WANSBROUGH’S THEORY by Ahmad Sanusi Azm 2017

JOHN WANSBROUGH Q1IRANIC STUDIES by ANDREW RlPPIN

Symposium in memory of Wansbrough

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #6301 - March 23, 2019, 09:13 PM

His book Quranic Studies is a materpiece.
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Reply #6302 - March 23, 2019, 09:14 PM

And Guillaume Dye is a genius.
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Reply #6303 - March 23, 2019, 11:10 PM

Dr Marianna Klar lecture, intervention of Mehdi Azaiez after a question (23min24) about the discourse and the nature of the opponents in the Quran.
when Azaiez respond (24min39) Look at the face of Klar at 25min 41-45:
https://www.nottingham.ac.uk/humanities/departments/theology-and-religious-studies/research/quran-lecture-videos-2016.aspx

Conclusion: Haha!, hahaha!, hahahahah!, hahahahaha!,hahahahahaha!, etc.

(I won't say more about it... yawn...)
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Reply #6304 - March 24, 2019, 02:49 AM

Quote from: Mahgraye on March 23, 2019, 09:13 PM
His book Quranic Studies is a materpiece.

could you please throw the link of that book dear Mahgraye??
Quote from: Mahgraye on March 23, 2019, 09:14 PM
And Guillaume Dye is a ~~genius.~~

well THAT IS A VERY BIG WORD.. don't get me wrong.. he is a great guy .. smart guy .. street smart guy .. but not sure about "genius" moreover with varied interests such as

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RESEARCH INTERESTS
Arabic PapyrologyAncient NubiaLate AntiquityTheo VennemannNorthwest Semitic EpigraphyHadith StudiesEschatology and ApocalypticismEtymologySemitic languagesEarly Christian Apocryphal LiteratureArabian Peninsula in AntiquitySyriac ChristianityArab Christian StudiesIslamic LawAbrahamic ReligionsOriental StudiesHistory of ReligionsComparative ReligionIndo-European LinguisticsBiblical StudiesHistorical JesusSecularisms and SecularitiesEthiopian StudiesSyriac StudiesArabic PhilosophySextus EmpiricusPhilosophical ScepticismComparative Semitic LinguisticsArabic Language and LinguisticsEarly IslamQur'anic StudiesDevotional ShrinesReligion and PoliticsOld Testament Textual CriticismComparative SemiticsEndangered LanguagesLate Antique and Byzantine HistoryAngelologyApocalypticismApocrypha/PseudepigraphaPseudo-Clementine LiteratureLate Antique ReligionDemonology in early ChristianityChristologyManichaeismPseudepigraphaDemonologyShi'ismGnosticismBible in ArabicIslamic StudiesAncient PhilosophyMedieval PhilosophyAncient Greek PhilosophyIslamic PhilosophyQuranic StudiesEastern ChristianityPyrrhonismAlfarabiAl-KindiPhilosophyEarly ChristianityNew TestamentGreek PatristicsAncient Rhetoric and PoeticsEarly Christian Papyri and InscriptionsHistory of Reception of Biblical TextsAncient JudaismClassical EthiopicGe'eznon-Chalcedonian ChristianityEthiopian ChristianityIslamic OriginsQur'anEarly Islamic HistoryIslamic HistoriographySemitic PhilologyEpigraphyHistory of Pre-Islamic ArabiaSouth Arabian CultureSyriac literatureArabic StudiesAncient Near EastReligious StudiesMagicIslamic HistoryAramaicSassanian PersiaPahlavi / Middle Persian (Religion)Middle Persian literature and languageTranslation StudiesArabic DialectologyWittgensteinEarly Islamic ArchaeologyByzantine StudiesMaterial philologyNew PhilologyLiturgical HistoryAl-AndalusMedieval Iberian HistoryEuropean substrate and poorly attested languagesMiddle Eastern ChristianityAlain ResnaisNestorianismLiturgy of the HoursMedieval DramaBruce LincolnTextual CriticismEarly Islamic StudiesMethod and Theory in the Study of ReligionPilgrimage and travel to the Holy LandHoly PlacesCritical Discourse AnalysisNabataean ReligionAncient North Arabian LinguisticsDesert Road ArchaeologyNorth Arabian EpigraphySafaiticForgery, Fakery, FraudCanonization ProcessesNabataean InscriptionsRedaction CriticismMemory (Cognitive Psychology)Oldest Iadgari Jerusalem TropologionKaraite StudiesKaraism

hard to become a genius ...one can be JACK OF MANY TRADES but not genius

https://www.babynamesdirect.com/baby-names/arabic/boy/a great web site to learn meaning to the Arabic baby Names

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Aala ...........................................................Supreme; Exalted; High in Status;
Aali .............................................................Name of Allah; Sublime; The High;
Islam............................................................submission, obedience, peace, and purity.
muslim ..................................................... a person who surrenders., who submits to the laws of God..
muhammad............................................... "praiseworthy" A leader .. A learned person...

good stuff good stuff., Whole faith runs round these Arabic words and I wonder whether such words were present in Arabic before say the year 500.. before the birth of Prophet of Islam...

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #6305 - March 24, 2019, 05:06 AM

Quote from: Altara on March 23, 2019, 11:10 PM
Dr Marianna Klar lecture, intervention of Mehdi Azaiez after a question (23min24) about the discourse and the nature of the opponents in the Quran.
when Azaiez respond (24min39) Look at the face of Klar at 25min 41-45:
https://www.nottingham.ac.uk/humanities/departments/theology-and-religious-studies/research/quran-lecture-videos-2016.aspx

Conclusion: Haha!, hahaha!, hahahahah!, hahahahaha!,hahahahahaha!, etc.

(I won't say more about it... yawn...)

.. let me put that different way., ALL THOSE GUYS ARE STUTTERING /MUTTERING/MURMURING and looking for English words to say

Quran is NOT word of allah/god and existence of Muhammad prophet of Islam is Questionable,.. BUT..BUT THEY CAN NOT SAY THAT ..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #6306 - March 24, 2019, 06:32 PM

Some time ago I posted the following comment regarding the Ishmaelite lineage of Arabs:

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CULTURE : Les musulmans arabes sont-ils vraiment les descendants d’Ismaël ?
ð La Bible (Genèse 25:12-18 ; Judith 2:23) nous dit que les descendants d’Ismaël se trouvaient en Assyrie (donc très loin de la Péninsule arabique). Et dans le Nouveau Testament (Ga 4:22-25), Ismaël représente spirituellement les Juifs qui ne veulent pas entrer dans la Nouvelle Alliance. Or, l’onomastique (l’étude des noms de personnes et de lieux) prouve que, pas plus que les Gaulois ou les Chinois, les Arabes avant le Coran ne se disaient « fils d’Abraham » ou « descendants d’Ismaël ». Mais comme le Coran (Sourate 33:4-5) ordonne que les fils adoptifs ne soient pas considérés comme de vrais fils et comme il fallait bien expliquer qu’Allah ait choisi, pour la première fois et contre la Bible, un « prophète » non-juif (Mahomet), il fallait nécessairement inventer ce lien du sang.

ð Recension du livre de René Dagorn (École pratique des Hautes Études), « La Geste d’Ismaël d’après l’onomastique et la tradition arabes », Genève, Librairie Droz, 1981 – Préface de Maxime Rodinson. http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/rhr_0035-1423_1983_num_200_4_4440 …

Le chapitre I, « Recherche d’une dimension historique », pose le problème. La tradition arabe veut que Muḥammad descende d’Ismaël, par 'Adnān et son fils Ma'aad. Mais elle n’affirme un lien de sang entre 'Adnān et Ismaël que depuis l’existence du Coran. Le chapitre II, « Les généalogistes arabes », est le plus important. Il est fondé sur trois ouvrages : Ibn al-Kalbī, « Jamharat al-nasab » ; al-Zubayrī, « Nasab Quraysh » ; Ibn Ḥazm, « Jamharat ansāb al-'Arab ». Après le dépouillement systématique et minutieux de ces recueils onomastiques totalisant quelque 100 000 noms propres, l’auteur aboutit, sur les patriarches bibliques et notamment sur Ismaël, à la constatation suivante : « Il n’existe aucune trace de l’utilisation de ces noms bibliques avant l’Islam dans l’onomastique. Par voie de conséquence, on peut en déduire que la société arabe n’avait, avant la prédication islamique, aucune conscience d’un rattachement quelconque à Abraham par Ismaël » (p. 44 ; cf. p. 49). En revanche, ce dernier nom est bien attesté dans l’épigraphie de la péninsule arabique. Pour résoudre la difficulté, les p. 100-104 déploient une argumentation qui pourrait être plus clairement présentée, mais n’en demeure pas moins convaincante. La voici. À supposer que le mot d’Ismaël, dans les inscriptions, renvoie consciemment au patriarche biblique, son emploi serait simplement dû à des juifs ou à des chrétiens (p. 103, cf. p. 45). Mais l’ensemble des Arabes continuaient à regarder ces deux groupes comme des éléments allogènes, et les noms bibliques sont absents de l’ancienne onomastique des Arabes parce que étrangers à leur conscience collective. Ce point est illustré par une citation d’Ibn al-Kalbī tout à fait révélatrice (p. 44). L’ensemble du chapitre est fermement étayé par les tableaux statistiques des p. 50 à 99. Le chapitre III confirme par un biais original les conclusions précédentes, réaffirmées avec force aux p. 123 et suivantes. Les Arabes étaient si peu enclins à s’attribuer Ismaël et Abraham pour ancêtres que la kunya « Abū Ismā'il » [surnom « Père d’Ismaël » joint au nom], inconnue avant l’islam a été, même aux siècles musulmans, rarement jointe au nom « Ibrāhīm ».

La deuxième partie essaie d’analyser, en quatre chapitres, l’émergence et l’évolution d’Ismaël dans la geste musulmane. Du pénétrant chapitre IV sur la révélation d’Ismaël dans le Coran, voir notamment les p. 132 et suivantes et 146 et suivantes. La suite de l’histoire n’est pas facile à reconstituer. Relevons une intéressante hypothèse. Il semble à l’auteur que les milieux shī'ites ont joué un très grand rôle dans le développement de la figure et de la légende d’Ismaël (p. 237-245 ; cf. p. 121 et 379-381).

The full review can be read here: https://t.co/8usO6YfxOz

A scholar drew my attention to the following discussion of Arabs Ishmaelite lineage by Peter Webb in relation to the earlier comment I had posted discussion the work of Dagorn (see above). Here is the full quote:

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Both Firestone (1989) p. 129 and Hawting (1999) p. 38 proposed the Ishmaelite lineage was developed in the first two Islamic centuries, and Dagorn speaks of ‘l’inexistence absolue et radicale dans la tradition arabe pré islamique, des personnages d’Ismaël, d’Agar se mere, et meme d’Abraham’ (1981) p. 377. This cannot be proven conclusively because the first-century CE Latin Jewish author Josephus speaks of ‘Arabs’ who claimed descent from Ishmael (Millar (1993)) and Sozomen’s Ecclesiastical History (1890) 6:38 describes an Ishmaelite alleged ancestry of certain ‘Saracens’ bordering Phoenicia and Palestine. Whilst such anecdotes evidence that certain groups in the Transjordan had a history of claiming ancestry to Ishmael, connecting them to Muhammad’s Muslim community is difficult. Josepheus probably intended Nabataeans by his ‘Arabs’, and Sozomen’s ‘Saracens’ seem to be a matriarchal tribe entirely forgotten in Muslim-era Arabic history. Sozomen’s story also concerns the conversion of this tribe to Christianity, hence it is not illogical to read their conversion and the historical reconstruction of their lineage into a biblical structure as connected, much like Muslims three or four centuries later would do. Names related to Ishmael are absent in pre-Islamic poetry, indicating a rather salient lack of symbolic attachment to Ishmael in pre- Islamic central Arabia. The only pre-Islamic onomastic evidence of Ishmaelite names occur in about fifty Safiitic inscriptions from modern Syria (al-Azmeh (2014a) p. 125 n. 150): there is some spatial congruence of these inscriptions with textual evidence from Sozomen, perhaps pointing to a regional Levantine, not pan-Arabian appeal of Ishmael. Since there is little to connect the Levantine references to Muhammad’s much later Muslim community in central Arabia, both Ephʾal (1976) and Bakhos (2006) pp. 159–60 consider the Muslim claims of Ishmaelite legacy to be separate from the earlier records.

It seems that there is something to Dagorn's views, even if his assessment of pre-Islamic attestations of the Ishmaelite lineage is not entirely accurate.
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Reply #6307 - March 24, 2019, 10:05 PM

First, there's not "Muslim" claim. Only Quran's allusion to Ishmael in close relation with Abraham his father since 1/ They both are co-contractor of God's covenant (2,125) 2/they built Bayt of God (2,27), 3/Ishmael is described as a part of the fathers of Israel (Jacob) with Abraham and Isaac, (Haha, hahaha, hahahaha, etc) (133) 3/ as a Messenger like his father (2,136) , is listed with Abraham, Jacob and Isaac and the 12 Tribes (2,140). I stop here.
Ephʾal (1976) and Bakhos (2006) know perfectly well the textual lineage as Sons of Ishmael of the Arabs.
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Reply #6308 - March 24, 2019, 10:17 PM

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First, there's not "Muslim" claim.

Not really the point.

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Ephʾal (1976) and Bakhos (2006) knows perfectly well the textual lineage as Sons of Ishmael of the Arabs.

By textual, you mean the Quran or sources such as Josephus and Sozomen? And what about Ephʾal and Bakhos' claims? Are they wrong? They do not deny that some Arabs were linked with Ishmael?
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Reply #6309 - March 24, 2019, 11:26 PM

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Not really the point

.
For me it is :
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Ephʾal (1976) and Bakhos (2006) pp. 159–60 consider the Muslim claims of Ishmaelite legacy to be separate from the earlier records.

There's not "Muslim" claim.
Ephʾal (1976) and Bakhos (2006) knows perfectly well the textual lineage (earlier records) as Sons of Ishmael of the Arabs.

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By textual, you mean the Quran or sources such as Josephus and Sozomen?

Yes. The Quran only retake what is is stated by Jews and Christians (Jerome, etc.) that they hold from Josephus and is known by elite Arabs of the mid 4,5,6th c. times of Iraq and Syria-Palestine.
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And what about Ephʾal and Bakhos' claims?

I'm not so sure that Webb read them well ; I'll have to check but... (not soon I have no time...)

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Are they wrong? They do not deny that some Arabs were linked with Ishmael?

"Arabs" whoever they were, were linked to Ishmael by Jews and Christians. And the elite Arabs knew it. I cannot see how they could not know it.
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Reply #6310 - March 24, 2019, 11:48 PM

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Ephʾal (1976) and Bakhos (2006) knows perfectly well the textual lineage (earlier records) as Sons of Ishmael of the Arabs.

Yes. They are familiar with the sources.
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Reply #6311 - March 24, 2019, 11:53 PM

The Quran only retake what is is stated by Jews and Christians (Jerome, etc.) that they hold from Josephus and is known by elite Arabs of the mid 4,5,6th c. times of Iraq and Syria-Palestine.
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Reply #6312 - March 25, 2019, 05:33 AM

Quote from: Altara on March 24, 2019, 11:53 PM
The Quran only retake what is is stated by Jews and Christians (Jerome, etc.) that they hold from Josephus and is known by elite Arabs of the mid 4,5,6th c. times of Iraq and Syria-Palestine.

hello Altara,, I wonder you could add some resources on THOSE ELITE ARABS OF Iraq and Syria-Palestine during 4,5,6th centuries,, Were they multilingual Jewish and Christian folks fluent in Arabic living in and around those lands..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #6313 - March 25, 2019, 11:33 AM

Academia is your friend, some authors:
Greg Fischer, Isabel Toral.
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Reply #6314 - March 25, 2019, 03:51 PM

Quote from: Altara on March 25, 2019, 11:33 AM
Academia is your friend, some authors:
Greg Fischer, Isabel Toral.

thank you for that response dear Altara...

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dr. Isabel Toral-Niehoff

"Wear the education like a honor dress!" Ethics, education and aesthetics in classical Arabic literature, in: God's thoughts. Ed. Reinhard Feldmeier, Monika Winet. Tübingen: Mohr-Siebeck 2016 (pp. 191-196).

History in Manners Context. The Book of Caliphal Histories by Ibn ʿAbd Rabbih in: Journal of Abbasid Studies 2 (2015) (pp. 61-85). (PEER-REVIEWED)3.

Fictionality and factuality in classical Arabic literature in: Factual and fictional narration. Differences, interferences and congruences in a narratological perspective. Ed. Nicole Falkenhayner, Monika Fludernik, Julia Steiner. Würzburg: Ergon Verlag 2015 (pp. 59-76) (PEER-REVIEWED)

Al- Ḥīra and the Baptism of al Nuʿmān in : Arabs and Empires before Islam, ed. Greg Fisher, Oxford: Oxford University Press 2015, (pp. 488-496) (PEER-REVIEWED) .

Talking about Arabic origins: The transmission of the ayyām alarab in Kūfah, Baṣrah and Baghdad In Jens Scheiner, Damien Janos (eds.) The Place to Go. Context of Learning in Baghdād, 750-1000 C.E. Princeton: Darwin Press 2014(pp. 43-69) 7.

“Paradise is at the Feet of the Mothers. Some preliminary remarks concerning the figuration of motherhood in Medieval Arab literature "Image of time. Medium Age 7, 2013 (pp. 45-58 (PEER-REVIEWED)

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Prof. Greg Fischer

(ed.) Studies in the History of the Ancient Near East (Routledge, 2015–.)
http://www.tandf.net/books/series/HISTANE/

(ed.) Arabs and Empires Before Islam (Oxford, 2015).
http://ukcatalogue.oup.com/product/9780199654529.do

(ed.) with J. Dijkstra, Inside and Out: Interactions Between Rome and the Peoples on the Arabian and Egyptian Frontiers in Late Antiquity (Peeters, 2014). http://www.peeters-leuven.be/boekoverz.asp?nr=9493

Between Empires. Arabs, Romans and Sasanians in Late Antiquity (Oxford, 2011/2013).
http://ukcatalogue.oup.com/product/9780199679317.do

Rome and the Arabs Before the Rise of Islam. A Brief Introduction (Louisville KY, 2013).

Articles and Book Chapters

with P. Wood. Writing the history of the ‘Persian Arabs’: the pre-Islamic perspective on the ‘Nasrids’ of al-Hira. Iranian Studies 49/2: 247–90.

with G. Bevan and D. Genequand. The late antique church at Tall al-ʿUmayrī East. new evidence
for the Jafnid family and the cult of St. Sergius in northern Jordan. Bulletin of the American
Schools of Oriental Research 373 (2015): 49–68.

‘State and tribe in late antique Arabia: a comparative view’, in J. Dijkstra and G.
Fisher (eds.), Inside and Out: Interactions Between Rome and the Peoples on the Arabian and
Egyptian Frontiers in Late Antiquity (Peeters, 2014): 281–97

‘Rome and the Ghassānids: comparative perspectives on conversion, boundaries and power in the Near Eastern borderlands’, in J. Fossey and E. B. Aitken (eds), Late Antique Crossroads in the Levant. Space, Ritual, Texts and Daily Life (Leiden, 2014): 273–92.

‘The politics of religion. Arabs, Christians, and Romans in the last century before Islam’, in R. Acar, B. Bas, and T. Kirby (eds.), Philosophy and the Abrahamic Religions: Scriptural Hermeneutics and Epistemology (Cambridge, 2012): 81–94.

‘Kingdoms or dynasties? Arabs, history, and identity in the last century before Islam’, Journal of Late Antiquity 4/2 (2011), 245–67.

‘The political development of the Ghassān between Rome and Iran’, Journal of Late Antiquity, 1/2 (2008), 313–36.

again thank you Altara..

Anymore links/names help on that particular subject .. Elite Arabs of the mid 4,5,6th c. times of Iraq and Syria-Palestine. ??/

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #6315 - March 25, 2019, 06:15 PM

NP Yeez.
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Reply #6316 - March 26, 2019, 01:53 AM

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"Arabs" whoever they were, were linked to Ishmael by Jews and Christians. And the elite Arabs knew it. I cannot see how they could not know it.

They do not deny that some Arabs were linked and aware of their Ishmaelite lineage.
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Reply #6317 - March 26, 2019, 09:17 AM

Webb is wrong about his comprehension of what Ephʾal (1976) and Bakhos say. I remember (maybe i'm wrong but I do not think so, you can check...) that they are aware of the textual lineage which is factual. From the moment where there is textual lineage, I consider that there is legacy. Legacy signifies, view the prestige of the Bible, and the heavy presence of Judaism and Christianity, identification to Ishmael as their father from the elite Arabs. It is prestigious. Bakhos is in Academia, you can contact her to have more precision.
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Reply #6318 - March 26, 2019, 09:26 PM

So someone somewhere in this folder said (( I guess Mahgraye )) ., The present Quran as we see today with 114 chapters with some 6300 verses or so was completed as a book by the year 699..

So question to Mahgraye , mundi, marc ..and Altara . As i am read/reading/will read Quran on and off. These mysterious letters on the top of some chapters bother me . for eg.. The recent 54th chapter Al-Hijr https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16106.msg882657#msg882657 that I am reading., it starts with

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1: Alif Lam Ra. .....These are the verses of the Book and (of) a Quran that makes (things) clear.

such strange letters/sounds that have no head/no tail/no meaning bother me.. and we have such sounds on top many many Quran chapters .. let me list them here

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Strange letters in the Quran

Chapter 2, Surah Al-Baqara (The Cow) : ʾAlif Lām Mīm
Chapter 3, Surah Āl-Imran : ʾAlif Lām Mīm
Chapter 7, Surah Al-Aʿarāf : ʾAlif Lām Mīm Ṣād
Chapter 10, Surah Yunus : ʾAlif Lām Rāʾ
Chapter 11, Surah Al-Hood : ʾAlif Lām Rāʾ
Chapter 12, Surah Yusuf : ʾAlif Lām Rāʾ
Chapter 13, Surah Al-Raʿd : ʾAlif Lām Mīm Rāʾ
Chapter 14, Surah Ibrahim : ʾAlif Lām Rāʾ
Chapter 15, Surah Al-Ḥijr : ʾAlif Lām Rāʾ
Chapter 19, Surah Maryam : Kāf Hāʾ Yāʾ ʿAin Ṣād
Chapter 20, Surah Ṭāʾ-Hāʾ : Ṭāʾ Hāʾ
Chapter 26, Surah Al-Shua’ra (The Poets) : Ṭāʾ Sīn Mīm
Chapter 27, Surah Al-Namal (The Ant) : Ṭāʾ Sīn
Chapter 28, Surah Al-Qaṣaṣ : Ṭāʾ Sīn Mīm
Chapter 29, Surah Al-Ankabut (The Spider) : ʾAlif Lām Mīm
Chapter 30, Surah Al-Rom (The Romans) : ʾAlif Lām Mīm
Chapter 31, Surah Luqmān : ʾAlif Lām Mīm
Chapter 32, Surah Al-Sajda (The Adoration) : ʾAlif Lām Mīm
Chapter 36, Surah Yāʾ-Sīn : Yāʾ Sīn
Chapter 38, Surah Ṣād : Ṣād
Chapter 40, Surah Al-Mu’min (The Believer) : Ḥāʾ Mīm
Chapter 41, Surah Fuṣṣilat : Ḥāʾ Mīm
Chapter 42, Surah Al-Shūrā : Ḥāʾ Mīm; ʿAin Sīn Qāf
Chapter 43, Surah Al-Zukruf (The Embellishment) : Ḥāʾ Mīm
Chapter 44, Surah Al-Duqqan (The Smoke) : Ḥāʾ Mīm
Chapter 45, Surah Al-Jasiya (The Kneeling) : Ḥāʾ Mīm
Chapter 46, Surah Al-Ahqaf (The Sandhills) : Ḥāʾ Mīm
Chapter 50, Surah Qāf : Qāf
Chapter 68, Surah Al-Qalam (The Pen) : Nūn

people have written books..publications.. websites.. 100s of them.. on those letters .. In this forum itself we have folder on it.. Alif lam meem and stuff where I scribbled a post/poem at https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=10181.msg261962#msg261962 SOME 9 YEARS AGO..lol which says

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Ohyee!.. False believers of Allah
Allah knows.. what is in your heart"
Allah knows..
"when a false believer is hurt,
then you start believing Allah"
And you say we are with you. "We are with Allah"

Allah know., You liars
"when help from your Lord comes, they will surely say:
"Indeed, we were with you"
but After time passes .
..you transgress Allah commands.. and.. you forget Allah
.. You bloody Lairs.. Cheaters and Rascals "..

Ta Seen Meem
Kaf Ha Ya Ein Sad.
Alif Lam Ra ..
.Doom ....Dam... DoooomM

..KhaboomM....
Meem... dum..dum
..Ta Ha....
Alif Lam Mim
Faa' Qaaf.

that last one in that song "Faa' Qaaf" .. I copied from that good old friend Hassan Radwan's post

Anyways .....SO QUESTION TO YOU GUYS who are in touch in academic journals that deals with Quran..

1). Did any bigwig Scholars of Quran publish anything on those strange sounds/letters??

2). Are those letters/sounds present in the oldest Quran manuscripts that have been found in say

Sana'a manuscript.......Codex Parisino-petropolitanus ....... Birmingham Quran manuscript.... that Tübingen Quran fragments... or in Kufic manuscripts such as Samarkand Kufic Quran??

I would appreciate any responses for those questions..

with best
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- Mahgraye
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Reply #6319 - March 26, 2019, 09:46 PM

Many have published on the “mysterious letters” (ḥurūf muqaṭṭaʿa) in the Qurʾān. See Luxenberg, “Syriac Liturgy and the ‘Mysterious Letters’ in the Qur’ān: A Comparative Liturgical Study,” for an overview of the previous scholarship and also for a plausible explanation of the letters. Here is Marcin Grodzki summarizing Luxenberg's findings:

Quote
Among the more recent unorthodox theories on deciphering the meaning of alif, lām, mīm prefixing sūras 29–32 we have Luxenberg (2007b) arguing for the Syro-Aramaic phrase emar lī Māryā (Arab. qāla lī al-Rabb, Eng. God spoke to me) which occurs frequently in the Biblical sources in relation to prophets. A similar assumption regarding the meaning of these letters was put forward in the late 70′s of the last century by a scholar hiding under the pseudonym of Abū Mūsā al-Ḥarīrī (1979) in his study Qass wa-nabī (in the French edition – entitled Le Prêtre et le Prophète. Aux Sources du Coran – published under his real name: Joseph Azzi). Luxenberg saw analogically in the letters alif, lām, rāʾ the Syro-Aramaic emar lī [ar-Rabb] (Arab. qāla lī [ar-Rabb] al-ʿAẓīm, Eng. the almighty [Lord] spoke to me) (Luxenberg 2007b: 449–50) They both argue that it can be seen in old Arabic Qurʾānic manuscripts that above these letters (as well as above other enigmatic letter abbreviations preceding the remaining sūras) there is a short horizontal wavy dash which in the Syriac tradition would normally represent an abbreviation.

Quote
following the Syriac liturgical tradition – a reminiscence of some customary letter abbreviations and other notations intended as reference marks to liturgical doxological formulas, psalms, responsorial chants, antiphons, intonation of hymns in appropriate tones and reading passages from the scripture. According to this theory (Luxenberg 2008) alif, lām, mīm and rāʾ introducing Q 13 are supposed to mean: emar lī Māryā rabbā (Arab. qāla lī l- Rabb al-ʿAẓīm, Eng. the almighty Lord spoke to me).

Guillaume Dye also finds Luxenberg's suggestion plausible.

Another plausible suggestion, this time based on Jewish sources rather than Syriac Christian ones, was proposed by the French priest Bruno Bonnet-Eymard. For Bonnet-Eymard, the “mysterious letter”, specifically alif, lām, mīm, are abbreviations of classical Jewish prayers. So, in the case of alif, lām, mīm, the letters stand for the Hebrew el-lemôssâ‘ôt (Eng. Our God is a God of deliverances or God of all reliefs), which has its origins in Psalm 68, verse 21. To quote Bonnet-Eymard:

Quote
In the system of abbreviations used in rabbinic literature, these three letters form the abbreviation of an expression that announces the theme of the developments of this long Sura consisting of 286 verses  : lemôshâ‘ôt, “ God for the salvations ” (Ps 68  :21.)

The initial A = alif, stands for ’el in Hebrew, ’ilâh in Arab  : “ God. ” It is preceded by the definite article ’al  : ’al- ’îlâh, which has become through contraction ’allâh  : “ the God. ”

The initial L stands for the preposition “ for, ” expressing finality.

The initial M stands for môshâ‘ôt, in Hebrew “ the salvations, ” in the plural to emphasise the richness of the unique salvific plan of God throughout history. The author undertakes to relate to us the last stage which, according to him is nothing other than the establishment of a perfect religion, neither Jewish nor Christian, but “ perfect, ” in Arabic  : muslim, derived from the Aramaic version of Yahweh’s words to Abraham  : haweî šelîm, “ Be perfect  ! ” (Tg Gn 17  :1) These are translated  : ’aslim by the author of the Qur’an in Sura II, verse 131.
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Reply #6320 - March 26, 2019, 11:17 PM

Bonnet-Eymard is always interesting.
- Mahgraye
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Reply #6321 - March 27, 2019, 12:39 PM

Mustafa Shah and M. A. S. Abdel Haleem (2019) - The Oxford Handbook of Qur'anic Studies

Description

Quote
The Qur'an is the foundational sacred text of the Islamic faith. Traditionally revered as the literal word of God, its pronouncements and discussions form the bedrock of Islamic beliefs and teachings. Notwithstanding its religious pre-eminence and the fact that it is the sacred text for over one billion of the world's Muslims, the Qur'an is also considered to be the matchless masterpiece of the Arabic language. Its historical impact as a text can be discerned in all aspects of the heritage of the Arabic literary tradition. Over recent decades, academic engagement with the Qur'an has produced an impressive array of scholarship, ranging from detailed studies of the text's unique language, style and structure, to meticulous surveys of its contents, concepts and historical contexts. The Oxford Handbook of Qur'anic Studies is an essential reference and starting point for those with an academic interest in the Qur'an. It offers not only detailed reviews of influential subjects in the field, but also a critical overview of developments in the research discourse. It explores the tradition of Qur'anic exegesis and hermeneutics, making it a comprehensive academic resource for the study of the Qur'an. No single volume devoted to such a broad academic survey of the state of the field currently exists.

Table of Contents

Quote
List of Illustrations
List of contributors
Introduction, Mustafa Shah and Muhammad Abdel Haleem
Part I: The State of Qur'anic Studies
1: Academic Scholarship and the Qur'an, Andrew Rippin
2: Modern Developments in Qur'anic Studies, Oliver Leaman
3: Islamic Origins and the Qur'an, Herbert Berg
4: Qur'anic Studies: Bibliographical Survey, Anna Akasoy
Part II: The Historical Setting of the Qur'an
5: Late Antique Near Eastern Context: Social and Religious Aspects, Muntasir F. al-Hamad and John F. Healey
6: Arabian Context of the Qur'an: History and the Text, Harry Munt
7: The Linguistic Landscape of pre-Islamic Arabia: Context for the Qur'an, Ahmad Al-Jallad
8: Qur'anic Exempla and Late Antique Narratives, Marianna Klar
9: The Qur'an and Judaism, Reuven Firestone
10: The Qur'an and Christianity, Neal Robinson
Part III: The Qur'an: Textual Transmission, Codification, Manuscripts, Inscriptions and Printed Editions
11: The Manuscript and Archaeological traditions: Physical Evidence, François Déroche
12: The Form of the Qur'an: Historical Contours, Yasin Dutton
13: The Corpus of Qur'anic Readings (qirā'āt): History, Synthesis and Authentication, Mustafa Shah
14: Glorifying God's Word: Manuscripts of the Qur'an, Sheila S. Blair
15: Inscribing God's Word: Qur??nic texts on Architecture, Objects, and Other Solid Supports, Sheila S. Blair
16: A History of Printed Editions of the Qur'an, Efim A. Rezvan
Part IV: Structural and Literary Dimensions of the Qur'an
17: Language of the Qur'an, A. H. Mathias Zahniser
18: Vocabulary of the Qur'an: Meaning in Context, Mustafa Shah
19: Qur'anic Syntax, Michel Cuypers
20: Rhetorical Devices and Stylistic Features of Qur'anic Grammar, Muhammad Abdel Haleem
21: Inner-Qur'anic Chronology, Nicolai Sinai
22: The Structure of the Qur'an: The Inner Dynamic of the Sūra, Mustansir Mir
23: Discussions of Qur'anic Inimitability: The Theological Nexus, Ayman A. El-Desouky
24: The Qur'an and the Arabic Medieval Literary Tradition, Geert Jan van Gelder
25: The Qur'an and Arabic Poetry, Stefan Sperl
Part V: Topics and Themes of the Qur'an
26: Revelation and Prophecy in the Qur'an, Ulrika Mårtensson
27: Doctrine and Dogma in the Qur'an, Stephen Burge
28: Law and the Qur'an, Joseph Lowry
29: Qur'anic Ethics, Ebrahim Moosa
30: Eschatology and the Qur'an, Sebastian Günther
31: Prophets and Personalities of the Qur'an, Anthony H. Johns
32: Politics and the Qur'an, Stefan Wild
33: Jihad and the Qur'an: Classical and Modern Interpretations, Asma Afsaruddin
34: Women and the Qur'an, Asma Afsaruddin

https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-oxford-handbook-of-quranic-studies-9780199698646?prevSortField=1&sortField=8&start=0&resultsPerPage=20&prevNumResPerPage=20&lang=en&cc=gb&fbclid=IwAR0VCLniujnpawERa7gRtt25v5kgWJV0KN0PRDWcTxe4JmPVOwBQ8D8dei4#
- Mahgraye
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Reply #6322 - March 27, 2019, 12:44 PM

Looking forward to this book. Looks very promising. Just look at that table of contents.
- yeezevee
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Reply #6323 - March 27, 2019, 01:21 PM

Quote from: Mahgraye on March 27, 2019, 12:44 PM
Looking forward to this book. Looks very promising. Just look at that table of contents.

Thank you for that info on those meaningless letters in Quran dear Mahgraye ..
Quote from: Mahgraye on March 27, 2019, 12:39 PM
Mustafa Shah and M. A. S. Abdel Haleem (2019) - The Oxford Handbook of Qur'anic Studies

well I am under the impression that M. A. S. Abdel Haleem is stuck in to the notion THAT QURAN IS WORD OF SOME ALLAH/GOD and I am sure you know the other guy Mustafa Shah .....

As long as people are stuck and hardwired to think SOME BOOK ..SOME WORDS ..SOME SOUNDS are word of god., their objectivity for writing a book goes out of the window ..

did you read Abdel Haleem Quarn translation??

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- Mahgraye
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Qur'anic studies today
Reply #6324 - March 27, 2019, 01:25 PM

Quote
Thank you for that info on those meaningless letters in Quran dear Mahgraye ..

Meaningless? How are they meaningless?

Quote
well I am under the impression that M. A. S. Abdel Haleem is stuck in to the nation THAT QURAN IS WORD OF ALLAH/GOD and I am sure you know the other guy Mustafa Shah .....

As long as people are stuck and hardwired to think SOME BOOK ..SOME WORDS ..SOME SOUNDS are word of god., their objectivity for writing a book goes out of the window ..

So? They are only the editors. Look at the table of contents and you will see that there are a host of different scholars who has contributed to this anthology. Your claims are irrelevant. Shah is a respected scholar, yes.
- yeezevee
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Reply #6325 - March 27, 2019, 01:28 PM

Quote from: Mahgraye on March 26, 2019, 09:46 PM
Many have published on the “mysterious letters” (ḥurūf muqaṭṭaʿa) in the Qurʾān. See Luxenberg, “Syriac Liturgy and the ‘Mysterious Letters’ in the Qur’ān: A Comparative Liturgical Study,” for an overview of the previous scholarship and also for a plausible explanation of the letters. Here is Marcin Grodzki summarizing Luxenberg's findings:

..................... Our God is a God of deliverances or God of all reliefs), which has its origins in Psalm 68, verse 21. To quote Bonnet-Eymard...

well running around the web with those highlighted words in google took me to stunning yet funny website that propagates Christianity

THE DAWN OF ISLAM AND THE GENESIS OF THE QUR’AN by Brother Michel-Marie du Cabeço

Essentially Brother Michel-Marie ...lol.. says..... WHOLE STORY OF PROPHET OF ISLAM "MUHAMMAD"IS FAKE... .. I wonder what he will say how much of Christ story we know is fact...real fact??

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- Mahgraye
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Qur'anic studies today
Reply #6326 - March 27, 2019, 01:30 PM

Quote
well running around the web with those highlighted words in google took me to stunning yet funny website that propagates Christianity

Yeah. Interesting website. Very helpful articles.

Quote
Essentially Brother Michel-Marie ...lol.. says..... WHOLE STORY OF PROPHET OF ISLAM "MUHAMMAD"IS FAKE... .. I wonder what he will say how much of Christ story we is fact...real fact??

I presume so, yes.
- yeezevee
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Reply #6327 - March 27, 2019, 01:33 PM

Quote from: Mahgraye on March 27, 2019, 01:25 PM
Meaningless? How are they meaningless?

.................. scholars ...................respected scholar, ........

Well Mahgraye everyone is a Scholar in their own right .. And in one of your post you gave me the names some 100s of scholars in Islam., origin of Islam and Quran... but...but ..I am looking for an objective scholar that spells out the truth WITHOUT BIAS AND WITHOUT FEAR..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- Mahgraye
- Pub Regular
- offline
Qur'anic studies today
Reply #6328 - March 27, 2019, 01:35 PM

Sure. Many are objective and truth-seeking. Not sure how this is relevant to what I just posted in terms of the book. And believe me, many of the anti-Islamic scholars are by no means objective and free of bias.
- yeezevee
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Reply #6329 - March 27, 2019, 01:41 PM

Quote from: Mahgraye on March 27, 2019, 01:35 PM
Sure. Many are objective and truth-seeking. Not sure how this is relevant to what I just posted in terms of the book.

No..No book is all right.. PEOPLE MUST HAVE FREEDOM TO EDIT/WRITE BOOKS I was just talking about those two guys because I read their works..

Quote
And believe me, many of the anti-Islamic scholars are by no means objective and free of bias.

Oh you are right... you are absolutely right...... and IN FACT SOME OF THEM ARE WORSE ...if they come from other faiths and if they are UNCRITICAL FAITH HEADS WITH ULTERIOR MOTIVES such as converting Muslim folks to their faiths .. they are indeed worse..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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yeezevee

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