Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Qur'anic studies today
Today at 08:26 AM

What music are you listen...
by zeca
Today at 12:57 AM

Random Islamic History Po...
Yesterday at 08:23 PM

The essence of the facts
by akay
Yesterday at 06:25 PM

the lost road
November 29, 2020, 09:25 PM

Paris murder
November 29, 2020, 02:46 PM

NayaPakistan...New Pakist...
November 29, 2020, 12:39 PM

Pakistan: The Nation.....
November 29, 2020, 05:43 AM

Discord Group for Ex-Musl...
November 28, 2020, 10:51 PM

Shit Muslims Say To Ex-Mu...
November 27, 2020, 01:06 PM

Orientalism - Edward Said
by zeca
November 25, 2020, 07:35 PM

مدهش----- لماذا؟؟؟؟
by akay
November 25, 2020, 12:38 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

 (Read 651944 times)
  • Previous page 1 ... 325 326 327328 329 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9780 - September 07, 2020, 12:49 PM

    To my knowledge, it is the only external text about Abu Turab (who is "Ali" according to the Muslim narrative).

    then there is a problem dear Altara... if you consider this "George of Resh'aina (d.c.680)" as only the reference
    Quote
    "When Maximus saw that Rome had accepted the foul mire of his blasphemies, he also went down to Constantinople at the time when Mu'awiya made peace with the emperor Constans, having started a war with Abu Turab, the emir of Al Hira, at Siffin and defeated him."
    George of Resh'aina (d.c.680), Syriac Life of Maximus XXIII, 312-13.

    it is difficult for me to trust such veiled historians., In fact I think  that guy wrote all sorts of nonsense on Maximus.. forget on Islam.. or Ali Ibn Abu Talib....

    The children story of  Abu Turab(As I heard goes like this).. "Prophet of Islam Muhammad Named him as  ..Abu Turab....or Father of Soil,  it  is a title attributed to Ali ibn Abu Talib,  by Muhammad, because he found Ali sleeping  covered with soil. Abu Turab means "Father of Soil" .. It is essentially a title... like Muhammad..  that is  a childhood  story...

    Now question to you..

    you say  Ali (who has existed as amir al muminin of Al-Hira) and it comes Early Muslim narratives .. Question is.,

    Did George of Resh'aina wrote that from Muslim narration of Ali?? or was he independently writing that in the year around 680??

    If he  took that  from Muslim narratives means .. there are/were hadith saying on Ali Ibn Abu Talib  being titled as Abu Turab, the emir of Al Hira  ., that means by that time year  680  many of these hadith sayings were   floating in the middle east...


    now when you look in to that hadith sayings..  we have tons of books from various fellows such as

    Quote
    Sahih al-Bukhari  :   Sahih al-Bukhari is a collection of hadith compiled by Imam Muhammad al-Bukhari (d. 256 AH/870 AD) (rahimahullah). His collection is recognized by the overwhelming majority of the Muslim world to be the most authentic collection of reports of the Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ). It contains over 7500 hadith (with repetitions) in 97 books. The translation provided here is by Dr. M. Muhsin Khan.

    Sahih Muslim :    Sahih Muslim is a collection of hadith compiled by Imam Muslim ibn al-Hajjaj al-Naysaburi (rahimahullah).  Imām Muslim's full name is Abu al-Husayn Muslim ibn al-Hajjāj ibn Muslim ibn Warat al-Qushayri al- Naysaburi (206-261 AH/821-875 AD).  His collection is considered to be one of the most authentic collections of the Sunnah of the Prophet (ﷺ), and along with Sahih al-Bukhari forms the "Sahihain," or the "Two Sahihs." It contains roughly 7500 hadith (with repetitions) in 57 books.,  . The translation provided here is by Abdul Hamid Siddiqui.

    Sunan an-Nasa'i :     SAḥmad ibn Shu`ayb ibn `Alī ibn Sīnān Abū `Abd ar-Raḥmān al-Nasā'ī (214 - 303 AH/ ca. 829 - 915 AD/CE), was born in the year 214 A.H in the famous city of Nasa

    Sunan Abi Dawud :      Sunan Abī Dāwūd is a collection of ḥadīth compiled by Imām Abū Dāwūd Sulaymān ibn al-Ash`ath as-Sijistānī (raḥimahullāh).  Abū Dāwūd Sulaymān ibn al-Ash`ath ibn Isḥāq ibn Bashīr ibn Shaddād ibn `Amr ibn `Imrān al-Azdī as-Sijistānī was born in the year 202 AH in Sijistan, a province in Khurasan .,   It is widely considered to be among the six canonical collections of ḥadīth (Kutub as-Sittah) of the Sunnah of the Prophet (saws). It consists of 5274 aḥādīth in 43 books.

    Jami` at-Tirmidhi:     Jamiʽ at-Tirmidhi (Arabic: جامع الترمذي‎), also known as Sunan at-Tirmidhi, is one of "the six books" (Kutub al-Sittah - the six major hadith collections). It was collected by Al-Tirmidhi.  He began compiling it after the year 250 A.H. (A.D. 864/5) and completed it on the 10 Dhu-al-Hijjah 270 A.H. (A.D. 884, June 9).

    Sunan Ibn Majah  :     Sunan Ibn Mājah (Arabic: سُنن ابن ماجه‎) is one of the six major Sunni hadith collections (Kutub al-Sittah).  The Sunan was authored by Ibn Mājah (b. 209/824, d. 273/887).  It contains over 4,000 aḥādīth in 32 books (kutub) divided into 1,500 chapters (abwāb). About 20 of the traditions it contains were later declared to be forged;  such as those dealing with the merits of individuals, tribes or towns, including Ibn Mājah's home town of Qazwin.

    Muwatta Malik  :     The Muwaṭṭaʾ (Arabic: الموطأ‎, "well-trodden path") or Muwatta Imam Malik (Arabic: موطأ الإمام مالك‎) of Imam Malik (711-795) written in the 8th-century, is the earliest collection of hadith texts

    Musnad Ahmad  :      Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal (Arabic: مسند أحمد بن حنبل‎) is a collection of hadith compiled by the Islamic scholar Ahmad ibn Hanbal, to whom the Hanbali fiqh (legislation) is attributed.  Abū ʿAbdillāh Aḥmad ibn Muḥammad ibn Ḥanbal Ash-Shaybānī (Arabic: أَبُو عَبْدِ ٱلله أَحْمَد ابْن مُحَمَّد ابْن حَنۢبَل ٱلشَّيْبَانِي‎; 780–855 CE/164–241 AH), often referred to as Aḥmad ibn Ḥanbal (أَحْمَد ابْن حَنۢبَل) or Ibn Ḥanbal (ابْن حَنۢبَل) for short, was an Arab Muslim jurist, theologian, ascetic, hadith traditionist, and founder of the Hanbali school of Sunni jurisprudence — one of the four major orthodox legal schools of Sunni Islam

    Quote
    40 Hadith Nawawi  :     Nawawi's Forty (sc. “Forty Hadith”, in Arabic: al-arbaʿīn al-nawawiyyah) is a compilation of forty hadiths by Imam al-Nawawi, most of which are from Sahih Muslim and Sahih al-Bukhari. This collection of hadith has been particularly valued over the centuries because it is a distillation, by one of the most eminent and revered authorities in Islamic jurisprudence, of the foundations of Islamic sacred law or Sharīʿah.


    Riyad as-Salihin  :      Riyad as-Salihin   is a compilation of verses from the Quran supplemented by hadith narratives written by Al-Nawawi from Damascus (1233–1277). Abū Zakariyyā Yaḥyā ibn Sharaf al-Nawaw  popularly known as al-Nawawī or Imam Nawawī (631–676 A.H./1234–1277), was a Sunni Shafi'ite jurist and hadith scholar.  He authored numerous and lengthy works ranging from hadith, to theology, biography, and jurisprudence., The hadith by al-Nawawī belongs to the category of canonical Arabic collections of Islamic morals, acts of worship, and manners, which are attributed to Muhammad by Muslim scholars but not found in the Quran. 

    Mishkat al-Masabih:     Mishkat al-Masabih (Arabic: مشكاة المصابيح‎)  is an expanded version of Al-Baghawi's Masabih al-Sunnah by Muḥammad ibn ʻAbd Allāh Khatib Al-Tabrizi.  Khatib Al-Tabrizi died 741 AH (1340 or 1341 CE) rendered this version of the original text more accessible to those not having an advanced knowledge of the science of hadith.
     
    Al-Adab Al-Mufrad :       Al-adab al-mufrad (Arabic: ادب المفرد‎) is a topical book of hadiths collected by Muhammad al-Bukhari  addressing the question of perfecting Muslim manners.,  Bukhārī (Persian: بخاری‎, ‎) (21 July 810 – 1 September 870), commonly referred to as Imam al-Bukhari or Imam Bukhari was a Persian Islamic scholar who was born in Bukhara (the capital of the Bukhara Region (viloyat) of what is now in Uzbekistan)

    Quote
    40 Hadith Qudsi  :     Hadith Qudsi or Hadith Qudse (Arabic: الحديث القدسي‎, meaning "pure" or "holy Hadith") is a special category of Hadith, the compendium of sayings attributed to the Islamic prophet Muhammad. It is stated these Hadiths are unique because their content is attributed to God but the actual wording was credited to Muhammad. This may be one of the reasons they are not included in the Quranic revelations, which are considered to be the verbatim word of God but rather are given a special category, thus occupying a status between Quran and normal Hadith text

    Ash-Shama'il Al-Muhammadiyah :    The Shamā'il Muhammadiyyah ("The Sublime Qualities of Muhammad"), often referred to as Shamā'il al-Tirmidhi or simply Shamā'il, is a collection of hadiths compiled by the 9th-century scholar Tirmidhi regarding the intricate details of the Islamic prophet Muhammad's life including his appearance, his belongings, his manners, and much more. The book contains 399 narrations from the successors of Muhammad which are divided into 56 chapters

    Bulugh al-Maram :       Attainment of the Objective According to Evidences of the Ordinances by al-Hafidh ibn Hajar al-Asqalani (1372 – 1448) is a collection of hadith pertaining specifically to Shafi'i jurisprudence.

     
    and many of those hadith were published way after the year 680. So there is problem .,  how that historian George of Resh'aina (d.c.680) got that  Ali Ibn Abu Talib  being titled as Abu Turab, the emir of Al Hira  if there  was NO ISLAMIC sayings at that time...

    anyway .. there are too many holes in this early Islamic history...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9781 - September 07, 2020, 01:59 PM

    Quote
    then there is a problem dear Altara... if you consider this "George of Resh'aina (d.c.680)" as only the reference


    Not necessarily. Yes there is one reference. But it is an external one. And it states things that necessarily was told by Arabs at the time. Arabs who do not say the same account of what will become the Muslims narrative That's where it changes everything. Because Ali was never said amir al muminin of Al Hira. However it is what it said here. At the times Arabs did not have a general account of the stuff which governs their mind, there was no yet "sacred history" to believe. They were not brainwashed. They told "real" thing.
    Fort all these reasons I think the George of Resh'aina account reflect what was told at the time. Did was he the only one to record it? Maybe, maybe not as one does not have all what was written in the past.

    Quote
    Did George of Resh'aina wrote that from Muslim narration of Ali?? or was he independently writing that in the year around 680??


    He wrote before 680 what Arabs were saying and what was the situation. Arabs. Not "Muslims". There was no "Muslim" at that time. Muslims is a much later word. You have to remove all the stuff of "Muslims" thing that were planted in your brain in your childhood. Because they are accounts of the 9th c. 200 years later a reconstruction of "what happened." For me ... this attestation of George of Resh'aina attests that the 9th c account is wrong.

    Quote
    and many of those hadith were published way after the year 680. So there is problem .,  how that historian George of Resh'aina (d.c.680) got that  Ali Ibn Abu Talib  being titled as Abu Turab, the emir of Al Hira  if there  was NO ISLAMIC sayings at that time...


    There is no problem.George of Resh'aina  repeat what he has heard, what was common at this time, nothing else. There was no scriptures in Arabic concerning the conquests, the characters, Muhammad, Mecca, Zem zem, there was nothing except "news" like today in the TV or Internet. This guy is this, is that, do this, do that, etc.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9782 - September 07, 2020, 04:58 PM

    oh my goodness gracious......  how do I respond to Altara??.... well let me put his post in to pointers to get back at him......  HE IS POKING ME WITH PINS ..
    1).  Not necessarily. Yes there is one reference. But it is an external one. And it states things that necessarily was told by Arabs at the time. Arabs who do not say the same account of what will become the Muslims narrative

    That's where it changes everything. Because Ali was never said amir al muminin of Al Hira. However it is what it said here. At the times Arabs did not have a general account of the stuff which governs their mind, there was no yet "sacred history" to believe. They were not brainwashed. They told "real" thing.

    O.K. i understand that., but these words  ....Ali was never said amir al muminin of Al Hira........

    are you missing words around that statement ??  where that "amir al muminin of Al Hira"  should have been mentioned .. by who??  you mean to say ...... that was supposed to be mentioned in Quran??  or in some other Arabic/non Arabic  texts??

    Quote
    2.)  Fort all these reasons I think the George of Resh'aina account reflect what was told at the time. ,,, was he the only one to record it? Maybe, maybe not as one does not have all what was written in the past.

    He wrote before 680 what Arabs were saying and what was the situation. Arabs. Not "Muslims". There was no "Muslim" at that time. Muslims is a much later word.

    Arabs .. NOT Muslims., very important point and I fully agree with you there...  but I need to get more information on that AUTHOR ITSELF to understand his writings..  ....George of Resh'aina....... what else he wrote apart from that reference you gave., (((George of Resh'aina, Syriac Life of Maximus XXV, 313 [p. 141]))) ....and where did you get that from ?

    Is that from  Peter Kirby

    or from that 2016 Paul M. Blowers book

    Maximus the Confessor: Jesus Christ and the Transfiguration of the World (Christian Theology in Context)

    Quote
    3). You have to remove all the stuff of "Muslims" thing that were planted in your brain in your childhood.

      STOP........... STOP IT............,   no need to poke my emotional side of brain with sharp pins...  that emotional yeezevee is dead.. DEAD LOOOOOONG AGO... dear Altara..

    Quote
    4). Because they are accounts of the 9th c. 200 years later a reconstruction of "what happened." For me ... this attestation of George of Resh'aina attests that the 9th c account is wrong.

    that is a very good point.,

    Quote
    5). There is no problem.George of Resh'aina  repeat what he has heard, what was common at this time, nothing else. There was no scriptures in Arabic concerning the conquests, the characters, Muhammad, Mecca, Zem zem, there was nothing except "news" like today in the TV or Internet. This guy is this, is that, do this, do that, etc.

    I certainly must agree with that .. but I do have Questions I will come back at it..  but for now..

    1). do you think these 8/9th century hadith Islamic historians took that George of Resh'aina word of " amir al muminin of Al-Hira " and created a character Ali Ibn Abu Talib   and and wrote whole of story around him??

    2). And  this name  Abu Turab was it original name for Ali Ibn Abu Talib?? and did    George of Resh'aina mentioned that name in his works ??

    anyway so many questions to you and  my head is spinning... well I am dead.. why worry about head spin??  hell with it...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9783 - September 07, 2020, 07:52 PM

    Did the first 4 Caliphs Exist? Mel, from Sneaker's Corner

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYoPQLHOa0A

    Quote
    Mel, from Sneaker's Corner, along with a Middle Eastern Arab scholar named 'Murad', came on to Pfanderfilms to discuss whether we can find any historical evidence for the first 4 'rightly guided Caliphs' (Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali) in the 7th century.

    He began by asking the question "Who am I? My mother’s name is Amina. One of my wives is called Zaynab. I also have another wife called Aisha.

    Obviously these three categories would fit for Muhammad himself, yet, these 3 are all true of the Caliph Marwan, who ruled for only one year, from 684-685, and was the father of Abd al-Malik. The coincidence that he would have the same mother and wives as Muhammad are too high to believe. So, Mel asked, could these names have been used by the later traditions for Muhammad's story?

    What about the usage of the word 'Caliph'? There are no rock inscriptions in the 7th century which uses the term الخليفة  (Caliph). The term which was used was 'Amir Al Mu'minin' (commander of the faithful) which doesn't even denote a sense of a successor. The term 'Caliph' was a shortening of Khalīfat Rasūl Allāh and meant "successor of the messenger of God“.

    According to Robert Hoyland, in his book 'Seeing Islam as Others Saw it: A Survey and Evaluation of Christian (Jewish and Zoroastrian Writings on Early Islam Studies in Late Antiquity and
    Early Islam, The Darwin Press 1998), the Doctrina Jacobi (634 AD) mentions an unnamed Arabian prophet “armed with a sword” who was alive in 634 AD.

    Thomas the Presbyter mentions a battle between the Byzantines & the 'Tayaye d’Mhmt', east of Gaza in 634.

    If he was still alive in 634, then the dates for Abu Bakr’s and Umar’s caliphates in the Traditions are in doubt. 

    Ah, but what about the Umar rock inscription? On the rock it says: "In the name of God. I am Zuhar. I wrote [this] when 'Umar died, the year 24"

    There are two problems with this inscription. First, it doesn't refer to Umar as 'Amir Al-Mu'minnin, let alone the Caliph. He is given no title, so he could be anyone with the name Umar.

    Secondly, the date of this death fits with the Islamic traditions. It says he died in the year 24, which would make it around 644-645 AD. But, if the Byzantine-Arab Chronicle (741 AD) is correct that Umar reigned for 10 years, then there is no time for Abu Bakr to have reigned, given Muhammd is said to be still alive in 634.

    So, the Chronology has insurmountable problems. We could throw out the Doctrina Jacobi and Thomas the Presbyter as evidence to Muhammad being still alive in 634… But we still have Sebeos (660s) who says that Muhammad led the invasion into Palestine. The invasion of Palestine is commonly accepted as taking place in 634-638. So the problem perists…

    So, what about Ali?

    Two of the earliest historical references to Ali contradict the much later Islamic version of events

    The Maronite Chronicle (late 7th century) maintains that Mu'awiya has his sister's son Hudhayfa killed. ‘Ali was slain "while praying at Hira." Mu'awiya went down to Hira and received allegiance from all the Arab forces there.

    So, according to this source, Ali was killed in 658, not 661, as the Traditions state.

    But was Ali (Abu Turab) even a caliph?

    Quote
    According to George of Resh'aina (d. ca. 680), we find this account:
     
    After Maximus went up to Rome, the Arabs seized control of the islands of the sea and entered Cyprus and Arwad, ravaging them and taking captives. They gained control over Africa and subdued almost all the islands of the sea; for, following the wicked Maximus, the wrath of God punished every place which had accepted his error. When Maximus saw that Rome had accepted the foul mire of his blasphemies, he also went down to Constantinople at the time when Mu'awiya made peace with the emperor Constans, having started a war with Abu Turab, the emir of Hira, at Siffin and defeated him. [Hoyland’s Note: Abu Turab is the nickname of 'Ali ibn Abi Talib,

    So, 'Ali was the emir of Hira, not a caliph!

    Conclusion:

    •     The historicity of the first 4 caliphs is seriously in doubt.
    •     Attempts at getting their story straight have failed.
    •     Abu Bakr couldn’t have been a caliph as contradictory evidence rules that out.
    •     Umar’s historicity rests on one rock inscription that could be about anyone of that name.
    •     Ali was never a caliph and he died 3 years before his reign was meant to have ended.


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9784 - September 07, 2020, 08:05 PM

    Is Muhammad in the Qur'an? Not according to Murad!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWjTPSxN0i8

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9785 - September 08, 2020, 08:24 AM

    Quote
    O.K. i understand that., but these words  ....Ali was never said amir al muminin of Al Hira........

    are you missing words around that statement ??  where that "amir al muminin of Al Hira"  should have been mentioned .. by who??  you mean to say ...... that was supposed to be mentioned in Quran??  or in some other Arabic/non Arabic  texts??

    He should have been mentioned in the 9th c. narrative. And he is not: 'Ali' is placed in Mecca/Medina. Moreover in the narrative all the future "companions" (including Ali) are placed in Iraq being said coming from the "Hijaz". I consider that they're all Iraqis. There was no "Hijaz".

    Quote
    1). do you think these 8/9th century hadith Islamic historians took that George of Resh'aina word of " amir al muminin of Al-Hira " and created a character Ali Ibn Abu Talib   and and wrote whole of story around him??


    Nope.

    Quote
    2). And  this name  Abu Turab was it original name for Ali Ibn Abu Talib?? and did    George of Resh'aina mentioned that name in his works ??


    1/ Possible.
    2) Nope, he mentions only Abu Turab see above the text.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9786 - September 08, 2020, 08:31 AM

    Quote
    But was Ali (Abu Turab) even a caliph?


    Nope, there was no caliph before the word was assigned officially to an Arab leader.

    Quote
    So, 'Ali was the emir of Hira, not a caliph!

    Conclusion:

    •     The historicity of the first 4 caliphs is seriously in doubt.
    •     Attempts at getting their story straight have failed.
    •     Abu Bakr couldn’t have been a caliph as contradictory evidence rules that out.
    •     Umar’s historicity rests on one rock inscription that could be about anyone of that name.
    •     Ali was never a caliph and he died 3 years before his reign was meant to have ended.

    1/  Of all except Ali (who was not "caliph".
    2/ Yes
    3/ Abu Bakr, he never existed as he has been described by the 9th c. narrative, or not existed at all.
    4) Yes
    5/ Yes.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9787 - September 09, 2020, 11:46 AM

    let me copy/paste Altara Q& A .. session ....... as this is quite important

    Quote
    1). Comment/Q: The historicity of the first 4 caliphs is seriously in doubt.
    Ans:   Of all except Ali (who was not "caliph")

    2). Comment/Q: Abu Bakr couldn’t have been a caliph as contradictory evidence rules that out.
    Ans: Abu Bakr, he never existed as he has been described by the 9th c. narrative, or not
     existed at all.

    3). Comment/Q: Umar’s historicity rests on one rock inscription that could be about anyone of that name.
    Ans: Yes

     
    4). Comment/Q: Ali was never a caliph and he died 3 years before his reign was meant to have ended.
    Ans: Yes.

    5).  Comment/Q: if you have any more publications on Abu Turab, the emir of Al Hira,.,  please post them here
    Ans: To my knowledge, it is the only external text about Abu Turab (who is "Ali" according to the Muslim narrative).

    6). Comment/Q:   1/And  this name  Abu Turab was it original name for Ali Ibn Abu Talib?? 2/and did    George of Resh'aina mentioned name " Ali " in his works ??
    Ans: 1/ Possible.  2/ Nope, he mentions only Abu Turab see above the text.


    correct me i did anything wrong in the above Q&A statements   dear Altara.....

    now .. would you trust this

    Quote
    Muwatta Malik  :     The Muwaṭṭaʾ (Arabic: الموطأ‎, "well-trodden path") or Muwatta Imam Malik (Arabic: موطأ الإمام مالك‎) of Imam Malik (711-795) written in the 8th-century, is the earliest collection of hadith texts


    The other point is ..

    what good reasons do we have to make this  Abu Turab as Ali .. alleged 3rd Calipha?? THERE WAS NO NAME...... "Ali".......  all the way until hadith stories got published ., hence historicity of  Ali Existence as narrated in all those hadith books is Questionable....

    is the above point/assumption  valid??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9788 - September 09, 2020, 01:01 PM

    Quote
    now .. would you trust this


    "Trust" is to have faith. I'm not Muslim. Therefore I do not "trust" it. As I do not "trust" the Quran. And I'm right: all what says the Quran have to be checked and one realizes that it says on purpose factual lies. The lie is one of the pillars of the text; besides, ambiguity, obscurity,  the crypticity (my neologism, https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=cryptic&ref=searchbar_searchhint) are the allies of the author(s).

    Quote
    The other point is ..

    what good reasons do we have to make this  Abu Turab as Ali .. alleged 3rd Calipha?? THERE WAS NO NAME...... "Ali".......  all the way until hadith stories got published ., hence historicity of  Ali Existence as narrated in all those hadith books is Questionable....

    is the above point/assumption  valid??


    1/ Because the narrative says that it was "a name" of Ali. That is the only reason I see.
    2/ The "Ali" name could very well have been invented by the Shii and adopted by the Sunni in the 9th c . It was not important.
    3/ Not existence, but "story". And the story is the frame Mecca/Kaba.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9789 - September 09, 2020, 01:13 PM

    "Trust" is to have faith. I'm not Muslim. Therefore I do not "trust" it. As I do not "trust" the Quran. And I'm right: all what says the Quran have to be checked and one realizes that it says on purpose factual lies. The lie is one of the pillars of the text; besides, ambiguity, obscurity,  the crypticity (my neologism, https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=cryptic&ref=searchbar_searchhint) are the allies of the author(s).

    Oh my goodness..  for a second I forgot with who I am having conversation.,   that was a mistake(THAT WORD)... well let me rephrase the question ..

    I gave list of hadith from different authors and their published timing   in the other post.. do you read them  to get some hints   or some clues on early history of Islam ??  or you completely reject them as narrative stories of 8/9 century converted Muslim folk stories and no relation to early Islam/proto-Islam ??.....

    Quote
    1/ Because the narrative says that it was "a name" of Ali. That is the only reason I see.

    but whose narrative?? narrative by whom? what year??

    Quote
    2/ The "Ali" name could very well have been invented by the Shii and adopted by the Sunni in the 9th c .  It was not important.
    3/ Not existence, but "story". And the story is the frame Mecca/Kaba.

     well that makes sense.. but why is that not important?  true it may  NOT be important for the story of Mecca/Muhammad/Medina/ Zam-zam....

    But for Persia and   for Shia Islam across the globe.. the truth behind that name is very very important..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9790 - September 09, 2020, 03:38 PM

    Quote
    or you completely reject them as narrative stories of 8/9 century converted Muslim folk stories and no relation to early Islam/proto-Islam ??....

    .

    I do not need the hadith as they are the narrative Kaba/Zem zem.  They have relation with 630-700 history but covers all what happened with the Islamic garment/prism and had to fit with this history.

    Quote
    but why is that not important? 


    Because historically that "Ali" was in fact "Abu Turab" for me is not important. The interesting thing is that "Abu Turab" was always remembered. It means that it is perfectly possible that this name was the real name of "Ali", and "Ali" a late nickname. For me all of this are details, as I'm not Shii or Sunni but an historian concerned by the author(s) of the Quran.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9791 - September 10, 2020, 01:11 PM

    .

    I do not need the hadith as they are the narrative Kaba/Zem zem.  They have relation with 630-700 history

    indeed you have point there and I may not agree with that.,

    And I say  ...............HADITH HAS NO RELATION WITH REAL HISTORY  OF SO-CALLED ISLAMIC MIDDLE EAST.,  what all it did is  "CREATE PHYSICAL & FAMILY RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN PEOPLE THAT ALLEGEDLY HERALDED ISLAM DURING THAT TIME"  and put some rules for those relations and on the way add 1000s of new names in to Islam....
    Quote
    but covers all what happened with the Islamic garment/prism and had to fit with this history.

    That is true .. It puts Islamic garment on the classical Islamic history of that time and and HIDES REAL HISTORY..

    Quote
    Because historically that "Ali" was in fact "Abu Turab" for me is not important. The interesting thing is that "Abu Turab" was always remembered. It means that it is perfectly possible that this name was the real name of "Ali", and "Ali" a late nickname. For me all of this are details, as I'm not Shii or Sunni but an historian concerned by the author(s) of the Quran.

    And I fully agree with that ...well on those words let me add these hadiths... just to have some notes on  "Abu Turab" from different authors of hadith.. that I already mentioned  in  this post

    Quote
    Quote
    1- Sahih Al-Bukhari translated by M. Muhsin Khan.

    (1) Narrated abu Hazim: A man came to Sahl bin Sad and said, "This is so-and-so," meaning the Governor of Medina, "He is calling 'Ali bad names near the pulpit." Sahl asked, "What is he saying?" He (i.e. the man) replied, "He calls him (i.e. 'Ali) abu turab." Sahl laughed and said, "By Allah, none but the Prophet called him by this name and no name was dearer to 'Ali than this." So I asked Sahl to tell me more, saying, "O abu 'Abbas! How (was this name given to 'Ali)?" Sahl said, "'Ali went to Fatima and then came out and slept in the Mosque. The Prophet asked Fatima, "Where is your cousin?" She said, "In the Mosque." The Prophet went to him and found that his (i.e. Ali's) covering sheet had slipped of his back and dust had soiled his back. The Prophet started wiping the dust off his back and said twice, " Get up! O abu turab (i.e. O. man with the dust)."  (Book #57, Hadith #53)

    (2) Narrated Sahl bin Sad: The most beloved names to 'Ali was abu turab, and he used to be pleased when we called him by it, for none named him abu turab (for the first time), but the Prophet. Once 'Ali got angry with (his wife) Fatima, and went out (of his house) and slept near a wall in the mosque. The Prophet came searching for him, and someone said, "He is there, Lying near the wall." The Prophet came to him while his ('Ali's) back was covered with dust. The Prophet started removing the dust from his back, saying, "Get up, O abu turab!" (Book #73, Hadith #223)

    (3) Narrated Sahl bin Sad: There was no name dearer to 'Ali than his nickname abu turab (the father of dust). He used to feel happy whenever he was called by this name. Once Allah's Apostle came to the house of Fatima but did not find 'Ali in the house. So he asked "Where is your cousin?" She replied, "There was something (a quarrel) between me and him whereupon he got angry with me and went out without having a midday nap in my house." Allah's Apostle asked a person to look for him. That person came, and said, "O Allah's Apostle! He (Ali) is sleeping in the mosque." So Allah's Apostle went there and found him lying. His upper body cover had fallen off to one side of his body, and so he was covered with dust. Allah's Apostle started cleaning the dust from him, saying, "Get up, O abu turab! Get up, abu turab!" (See Hadith No. 432, Vol 1)  (Book #74, Hadith #297)


    Quote
    2- Sahih Muslim translated by Abdul Hamid Siddiqui.


    (1) This hadith has been narrated. on the authority of Shu'ba with the same chain of transmitters. Amir b. Sa'd b. Abi Waqqas reported on the authority of his father that Muawiya b. Abi Sufyin appointed Sa'd as the Governor and said:   What prevents you from abusing abu turab (Hadrat 'Ali), whereupon be said: It is because of three things which I remember Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said about him that I would not abuse him and even if I find one of those three things for me, it would be more dear to me than the red camelg. I heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) say about 'Ali as he left behind hrin in one of his campaigns (that was Tabuk). 'All said to him: Allah's Messenger, you leave me behind along with women and children. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said to him: Aren't you satisfied with being unto me what Aaron was unto Moses but with this exception that there is no prophethood after me. And I (also) heard him say on the Day of Khaibar: I would certainly give this standard to a person who loves Allah and his Messenger and Allah and his Messenger love him too. He (the narrator) said: We have been anxiously waiting for it, when he (the Holy Prophet) said: Call 'Ali. He was called and his eyes were inflamed. He applied saliva to his eyes and handed over the standard to him, and Allah gave him victory. (The third occasion is this) when the (following) verse was revealed:" Let us summon our children and your children." Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) called 'Ali, Fitima, Hasan and Husain and said: O Allah, they are my family.  (Book #031, Hadith #5915)

    (2) Sahl b. Sa'd reported that a person from the offspring of Marwan was appointed as the governor of Medina. He called Sahl b. Sa'd and ordered him to abuse All Sahl refused to do that. He (the governor) said to him: If you do not agree to it (at least) say: May Allah curse abu turab. Sahl said: There was no name dearer to All than abu turab (for it was given to him by the Holy Prophet himself) and he felt delighted when he was called by this name. He (the governor) said to him: Narrate to us the story of his being nanied as abu turab. He said: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) came to the house of Fatima and he did not find 'Ali in the house; whereupon he said: Where is your uncle's son? She said: (There cropped up something) between me and him which had annoyed him with me. He went out and did not rest here. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said to a person to find out where he was. He came and said: Allah's Messenger, he is sleeping in the mosque. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) came to him and found him lying in the mosque and saw that his mantle had slipped from his back and his back was covered with dust and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) began to wipe it away from him (from the body of Hadrat 'Ali) saying: Get up, covered with dust; get up, covered with dust.  (Book #031, Hadith #5924)


    3).  Sunan Abu-Dawud translated by Prof. Ahmad Hasan.   .... NONE

    4- Malik's Muwatta translated by Aisha Abdarahman at-Tarjumana and Yaqub Johnson..............NONE

     

    It is interesting to note., in those  five hadith sayings., ....  three  from Sahih Al-Bukhari hadith and two from Sahih Muslim   that mentioned this name  "Abu Turab".....    four of those hadith stories are same .... Abu Tarub sleeping in mosques  after fighting with Porphet's daughter Fatima..... except that hadith 1 of  Sahih Muslim...

    incidentally 1000s of hadith sayings from various collectors those 5 hadith sayings are only the ones that mentioned  that named .. and four of them are same story .. . the 5th one is interesting .. w.r.t. shia-sunni business

    Any ways .. learning the origins of these important names of early Islam and their true stories  is important for fellows like me.. that may not be important for historians like you .

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9792 - September 10, 2020, 03:34 PM

    Quote
    That is true ..


    Yes.

    Quote
    It puts Islamic garment on the classical Islamic history of that time and and HIDES REAL HISTORY..


    Nope, it hides nothing because there was no "classical Islamic history of that time", because there was no "Islam" between 630-692 contrary to what can say the 9th c. Sunni narratives and the Shii ones.

    Quote
    learning the origins of these important names of early Islam and their true stories  is important for fellows like me..


    I know Yeez.

    Quote
    that may not be important for historians like you .


    It is not my memory, but yours.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9793 - September 10, 2020, 05:15 PM

    Yes.

    Nope, it hides nothing because there was no "classical Islamic history of that time", because there was no "Islam" between 630-692 contrary to what can say the 9th c. Sunni narratives and the Shii ones.

    Quote
    I know Yeez.

    It is not my memory, but yours
    .



     that is OK.. that is all right dear Altara..  Cheesy    .............I eat  Fish & French fries from France and  as well as I eat   fried fish & Chips from England.,    what is there in name??   Fries or chips .. both come from potatoes ...

    So your point is .. THERE WAS NO ISLAM BETWEEN THE YEARS 630-692., .. It appears you left that Muhammad  and his life.  the. alleged Prophet of Islam life time in that time line..

    So., modifying that a bit I can safely safely  say.,    There was NO ISLAM between 613(the year alleged Muhammad started preaching Islam )  to the year 692))

      Q-1_ is that modification OK dear Altara??..

    So year..... _692_......, on that let me add this timeline and ask you few questions,.... assuming there was NO Muhammad., . NO  Abu Bakhra ., NO  Umar ibn al-Khattab  and NO Uthman ibn 'Affan ..  but  1).  Abu Turab, the emir of Al Hira/Ali Ibn Abu Talib   .. and other two active characters during that time  being  2).  Abd al Malik  and  3).  Zubayr  and   from these three Proto-Islam emerges...

    So assuming .. Altara agrees with that .. let me add a bit on those three Characters

    Quote
    Quote
    Character 1).  Abu Turab :

    1).  Abu Turab : Abu Turab/aka   Ali ibn Abi Abu Talib,    or Father of Soil, is a title attributed to Ali ibn Abi Talib, the fourth Sunni Caliph and first Shia Imam. According to narrations the title was given to Ali by Muhammad, when he found Ali sleeping while covered with soil..

    Quote
    Ali ibn Abi Talib  born on 13 September 601 and died  29 January 661 ...so lived for 60 years so ruled as the fourth caliph from 656 to 661.  on  26 January 661,  while praying in the Great Mosque of Kufa, Ali was attacked by the Kharijite Abd-al-Rahman ibn Muljam. He was wounded by ibn Muljam's poison-coated sword while prostrating in the Fajr prayer. Ali died two days later on 29 January 661



    Quote
    Character 2. Abd al Malik

    Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan:   Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan ibn al-Hakam  born in 64 or 647 and died  9 October 705 was the alleged fifth Umayyad caliph, ruling from April 685 until his death..

    Quote
    ...Following a failed invasion of Iraq in 686, Abd al-Malik focused on securing Syria before making further attempts to conquer the greater part of the Caliphate from his principal rival, the Mecca-based caliph Abd Allah ibn al-Zubayr. To that end, he concluded an unfavorable truce with the reinvigorated Byzantine Empire in 689, quashed a coup attempt in Damascus by his kinsman, al-Ashdaq, the following year, and reincorporated into the army the rebellious Qaysi tribes of the Jazira (Upper Mesopotamia) in 691. He then conquered Zubayrid Iraq and dispatched his general, al-Hajjaj ibn Yusuf, to Mecca where he killed Ibn al-Zubayr in late 692, thereby reuniting the Caliphate under Abd al-Malik's rule. The war with Byzantium resumed, resulting in Umayyad advances into Anatolia and Armenia, the destruction of Carthage and the recapture of Kairouan, the launchpad for the later conquests of western North Africa and the Iberian Peninsula, in 698. In the east, Abd al-Malik's viceroy, al-Hajjaj, firmly established the caliph's authority in Iraq and Khurasan, stamping out opposition by the Kharijites and the Arab tribal nobility by 702. Abd al-Malik's final years were marked by a domestically peaceful and prosperous consolidation of power......

    The cause of his death was attributed by the historian al-Asma'i (d. 828) to the 'Plague of the Maidens', so-called because it originated with the young women of Basra before spreading across Iraq and Syria. ] He was buried outside of the Bab al-Jabiya gate of Damascus



    Quote
    Quote
    Character 3. ibn al-Zubayr

    Abd Allah ibn al-Zubayr ibn al-Awwam  born on May 624 and died on  October/November 692  was the leader of a caliphate based in Mecca that rivaled the Umayyads from 683 until his death. The son of al-Zubayr ibn al-Awwam and Asma bint Abi Bakr, Ibn al-Zubayr belonged to the Quraysh, the leading tribe of the nascent Muslim community, and was the first child born to the Muhajirun, Islam's earliest converts.


    Ibn al-Zubayr established himself in Mecca where he rallied opposition to Yazid (r. 680–683), before proclaiming himself caliph in the wake of Yazid's death in 683, marking the beginning of the Second Muslim Civil War. Meanwhile, Yazid's son and successor died weeks into his reign, precipitating the collapse of Umayyad authority across the Caliphate, most of whose provinces subsequently accepted the suzerainty of Ibn al-Zubayr. Though widely recognized as caliph, his authority was largely nominal outside of the Hejaz.

    Ibn al-Zubayr remained defiant and, acting on his mother's counsel, entered the battlefield where he was ultimately slain on 3 October or 4 November 692



    Now.. Hello Altara... .for time being forget Islamic narratives on these there guys..

      Q2:   but would you consider they being real and they are the important characters on this history of early Islam or proto-Islam.. or whatever is the name??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9794 - September 11, 2020, 01:05 PM

    Quote

    So., modifying that a bit I can safely safely  say.,    There was NO ISLAM between 613(the year alleged Muhammad started preaching Islam )  to the year 692))
    Q-1_ is that modification OK dear Altara??..


    Nope. The year 613 mean nothing. There was no "classical Islamic history of that time", because there was no "Islam" between 630-692 contrary to what can say the 9th c. Sunni narratives and the Shii ones. I say 630 because of the emergence of Arabs as wanting taking the power from Constantinople and Persia. Before, West Arabs were the allies of  Constantinople and Eastern of Persia.
    Quote
    but  1).  Abu Turab, the emir of Al Hira/Ali Ibn Abu Talib   .. and other two active characters during that time  being  2).  Abd al Malik  and  3).  Zubayr  and   from these three Proto-Islam emerges...

    Abu Turab, the emir of Al Hira is dead in 657 (not 661); he is not contemporary of Zubayr & Malik.
    Proto-Islam could have been emerged earlier. than    Abd al Malik  and  Zubayr times: beginning of the 7th c. or even before.

    Quote
    Q2:   but would you consider they being real and they are the important characters on this history of early Islam or proto-Islam.. or whatever is the name??


    Yes those were reals. Yes they are historical important figures concerning the history of Arabs who have taking out the two empires which ruled before.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9795 - September 11, 2020, 04:06 PM

    1). Nope. The year 613 mean nothing. There was no "classical Islamic history of that time", because there was no "Islam" between 630-692 contrary to what can say the 9th c. Sunni narratives and the Shii ones.

    2). I say 630 because of the emergence of Arabs as wanting taking the power from Constantinople and Persia. Before, West Arabs were the allies of  Constantinople and Eastern of Persia. Abu Turab, the emir of Al Hira is dead in 657 (not 661); he is not contemporary of Zubayr & Malik.

    By those two highlighted statements You just killed the little hope I had with Abu Turab/Ali Ibn Abu Talib.....  I am Lost with those words .. and the Islamic expansion history I often read, discussed  also added in to this folder here Chronological History of  Islam  ....  because THERE WAS NO ISLAM UNTIL THE YEAR 801....810.. whatever..  That means .. what I put in these posts  and in different forums .. from the death of Imaginary Prophet in 632  to all the way to year 800 or so,...is nothing to do with Quran and Islam....

    Quote
    https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22184.msg639631#msg639631
    https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22184.msg639778#msg639778
    https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22184.msg640629#msg640629

    Quote
    792: Invasion of South France.
    796: Death of Hisham in Spain; accession of al Hakam.
    799: Suppression of the revolt of the Khazars..
    800: The Aghlabid rule is established in North Africa.
    803: Downfall of the Barmakids. Execution of Jafar Barmki.
    805: Campaigns against the Byzantines. Capture of the islands of Rhodes and Cypress.
    809: Death of Harun ur Rashid. Accession of Amin.
    814: Civil war between Amin and Mamun. Amin killed and Mamun becomes the Caliph.
    815: Shia revolt under Ibn Tuba Tabs.
    816: Shia revolt in Makkah; Harsama quells the revolt. In Spain the Umayyads capture the island of Corsica.
    817: Harsama killed.
    818: The Umayyads of Spain capture the islands of Izira, Majorica, and Sardinia.
    819: Mamun comes to Baghdad.
    820: Tahir establishes the rule of the Tahirids in Khurasan.
    822: Death of AI Hakam in Spain; accession of Abdul Rahman. II.
    823: Death of Tahir in Khurasan. Accession of Talha and his deposition. Accession of Abdullah b Tahir.
    827: Mamun declares the Mutazila creed as the state religion.
    833: Death of Mamun. Accession of Mutasim.



    is just Arab leaders internal warfare and expansion of their mini-kingdoms in to different lands..   AND IS NOTHING TO DO WITH QURAN AND NOTHING TO DO WITH ISLAM   and and actually what you say makes lot of sense...

    Quote
    Proto-Islam could have been emerged earlier. than    Abd al Malik  and  Zubayr times: beginning of the 7th c. or even before.

    what do you consider as Proto-Islam??.. Quran manuscripts and preachers of that time that preached those manuscripts in Churches?  Jewish Temples?? Arab Pagan temples??

    Quote
    Yes those were reals. Yes they are historical important figures concerning the history of Arabs who have taking out the two empires which ruled before.


    I need to read more than what I know about Ali Ibn Abu Talib... and Ineed to learn more on that Karbala..   So when it comes Quran as book that guy  Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan contribution appears to be far more important than other two...

    do you agree with me??

    And do you think this AbuTarub was actually Arab Christian of some sect of that time from present Kuffa of Iraq.... or Karabla of Iraq??

    was he preaching in Arabic Bible? what I consider as some parts of Quran manuscripts??

    And I am actually stunned the way these fools in academics completely hiding this history that appears to be fairly straight forward to propose...

    Please finish your book ASAP...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9796 - September 11, 2020, 07:10 PM

    Quote
    is just Arab leaders internal warfare and expansion of their mini-kingdoms in to different lands..

     
    Yes.

    Quote
    AND IS NOTHING TO DO WITH QURAN AND NOTHING TO DO WITH ISLAM

      

    Except that the elite know Quranic text (not in the codex form): 637 in Jerusalem, they build a house of prayer.

    Quote
    and and actually what you say makes lot of sense...


    It fits what one sees of the events: as such, "Islam" starts in 692. But it was present via Quranic texts since already 637 but was not what we know today: it is a slow construction whose kick-off start in 692 after the defeat of Zubayr who lost "Mecca" which did not existed before him and which is got by Malik.

    Quote
    what do you consider as Proto-Islam??.. Quran manuscripts and preachers of that time that preached those manuscripts in Churches?  Jewish Temples?? Arab Pagan temples??

     Quranic texts( not codex form) is the first artefact to appear; they could have been there very earlier than one thinks (550-600). Nobody "preach" them, it is simultaneously more simple and more complicated than that. (I wont say more ...)
    Arabs were Christians but they did not have Scriptures in Arabic. Mind it. What is the Quran if not an "Arabic Scripture"? (he repeats it all the time). Then reflects.
    Quote
    I need to read more than what I know about Ali Ibn Abu Talib... and Ineed to learn more on that Karbala.. do you agree with me??  

    All is with Islamic garment. You will learn nothing more that you already know.
    Quote
    And do you think this Abu Tarub was actually Arab Christian of some sect of that time from present Kuffa of Iraq.... or Karabla of Iraq??


    All Iraqis Arabs were bathing in a Christian (not sect) atmosphere: https://www.academia.edu/1961404/The_%CA%BFIb%C4%81d_of_al-%E1%B8%A4%C4%ABra_An_Arab_Christian_Community_in_Late_Antique_Iraq

    Quote
    was he preaching in Arabic Bible? what I consider as some parts of Quran manuscripts??


    At all. Ali preached nothing. He was not the the son-in-law of the figure addressed by  "God" in the Quranic texts. All of this is the 9th c. narrative. He was aware like the Arab Iraqi elite about the Quranic texts. The diffusion of the Quranic texts sufficed ; preaching comes later. Ali was the leader of al Hira; he had (maybe) got the power since the war with the Persians, their defeat and their expulsion from Iraq.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9797 - September 12, 2020, 02:20 PM

    So where am I?? well As crumble said another folder.. ... SEARCHING FOR LOST ROAD.....I got to find out a way... anyways .. let me clean up a bit my stuff with Altara

    ............That means., from the day, the  death of Imaginary Prophet in 632  to all the way to year 800 or so is nothing to do with Quran and Islam. It is just Arab leaders internal warfare and expansion of their mini-kingdoms in to different lands..   AND IS NOTHING TO DO WITH QURAN AND NOTHING TO DO WITH ISLAM

     And Altara says

    Yes.

     and adds this
    Quote
    Except that the elite know Quranic text (not in the codex form): 637 in Jerusalem, they build a house of prayer.

    what actually do you mean by "elite" .. Quranic texts(not in the codex form)".. that too in the year 637 or even before that??

    what Quranic texts are you talking dear Altara??  There was NO ISLAM.. hence NO QURANIC TEXTS.,   Clearly there was no book at that time., Was it is Arabic? Syriac?  Ar·a·ma·ic?  or was it in Greek or in Hebrew??  If I remember correctly you said ..... there was no Arabic Script .. until the year 680..690?? or so

    And who were these guys?? Arab Christians Preachers??  or Arab mini rulers ??  around Present Palestine/Syria/Jordan or northern Arabia or present Iraq??

    OOPS.. I guess your answer is .....complicated than that. (I wont say more ...).... 

    Now on that  Ali Ibn Abu Talib/Abu Tarub .. you say

    Quote
    All Iraqis Arabs were bathing in a Christian (not sect) atmosphere:

    that I agree ., BUT WERE THEY CHRISTIANS?  CHRISTIAN SECT?? OR HERETIC CHRISTIANS??
    Did they had/read/preached by some one from those  OT & NT texts??

    you also say

    Quote
    ...Ali preached nothing. He was not the the son-in-law of the figure addressed by  "God" in the Quranic texts. All of this is the 9th c. narrative. He was aware like the Arab Iraqi elite about the Quranic texts. The diffusion of the Quranic texts sufficed ; preaching comes later. Ali was the leader of al Hira; he had (maybe) got the power since the war with the Persians, their defeat and their expulsion from Iraq....

    Oh I agree with that .. No Prophet..No god.. No Son in-law... No..Fatima ..

    but  this Ali/Abu Tarub .. was he small Arab leader in Kuffa in Iran of that time??  THERE WAS NO IRAQ at that time..

    I guess I need to read/learn more on these min-kingdoms that were around the present Saudi Arabia .. ,  And I wonder about these mini rulers of Arabian peninsula.,   were they  semi independent or were they with crumbling Byzantine empire  or and  Crumbling Sassanid Empire???

    Quote
    Origins and early history  of    Sassanid Empire (205–310)
     First Golden Era Sassanid Empire(309–379)
     Intermediate Era Sassanid Empire(379–498)
    Second Golden Era Sassanid Empire(498–622)
     Decline and fall Sassanid Empire (622–651)


    and crumbling  Byzantine empire around that time in the  year ....500 to 700 or so.. 

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5zYpWcz1-E

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXCyvMrJhSM

    Sassanid Empire  had sudden death.,    Indeed it is complicated.. but foolish academics having faculty jobs in specially western  universities  have done NOTHING to unravel that history  but added more complications in 20th century...

    well go back to school..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9798 - September 12, 2020, 05:53 PM

    Quote
    what actually do you mean by "elite" .. Quranic texts(not in the codex form)".. that too in the year 637 or even before that??


    Elite Arabs were aware/ had knowledge of Quranic texts and not in a codex form.

    Quote
    There was NO ISLAM.. hence NO QURANIC TEXTS.,


    There was NO ISLAM and QURANIC TEXTS.

    Quote
    If I remember correctly you said ..... there was no Arabic Script .. until the year 680..690?? or so


    I never said that (TM Marc) :
    https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/zebed.html
    https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/harran.html

    Quote
    that I agree ., BUT WERE THEY CHRISTIANS?  CHRISTIAN SECT?? OR HERETIC CHRISTIANS??
    Did they had/read/preached by some one from those  OT & NT texts??


    All Iraqis Arabs were bathing in a Christian (not sect) atmosphere.
    They were Christianized, but not "Christians". Christians have Scriptures in their languages (Syriac, Greek, Copt, Latin, Ethiopian, etc) Not Arabs. They do not have the Biblical Scriptures in Arabic.

    Quote
    but  this Ali/Abu Tarub .. was he small Arab leader in Kuffa in Iran of that time??  THERE WAS NO IRAQ at that time..

    There was Iraq at that time: From the gulf to Edessa it is populated by Arabs and Syriacs.
    Quote
    I guess I need to read/learn more on these min-kingdoms that were around the present Saudi Arabia .. ,  And I wonder about these mini rulers of Arabian peninsula.,   were they  semi independent or were they with crumbling Byzantine empire  or and  Crumbling Sassanid Empire???


    Yes, read.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9799 - September 12, 2020, 11:16 PM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1304460924066115584
    Quote
    A lovely discovery. A new 6th c. Arabic-script inscription from the northern Ḥigāz. Highlights:
    1) Associated with the Ḫazraǧ, but here referred to with the diminutive.
    2) Monotheistic, using the formula la-ʾūṣi-kum billāh 'I urge you to god'
    3) بالله spelled بله
    4) And finally, the use of hāḏā, as in the dialect of the QCT, rather than ḏā, which is more common in this period.
    5) No wawation, bringing us closer to the writing school of Yathrib (I think).


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9800 - September 13, 2020, 10:16 AM

    Well... Not spotted by Jallad, I see what could be a cross bottom right.
    Need an article.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9801 - September 13, 2020, 10:49 AM

    The cross gets a mention in the discussion:

    GabrielSaidR:  Is the marking on the lower right a cross?

    May Shaddel:  Yes. This graffito is both stylistically and orthographically similar to a number of other graffiti from the region and some of those bear crosses too.

    Hythem Sidky:  Actually, I don’t think it is. And the patina is way off. It’s not part of the original inscription. Looks much later. Same goes for the man.

    May Shaddel:  You're right. I just assumed it could be because of the other inscription.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9802 - September 13, 2020, 11:07 AM

    Thanks Zeca. On the other hand the inscription resemble to the Negev ones: no dates, monotheistic: no "Islam" reference. It could be post or ante 630.
    Quote
    And finally, the use of hāḏā, as in the dialect of the QCT, rather than ḏā, which is more common in this period.

     The grammatical with the QCT is nonetheless interesting.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9803 - September 13, 2020, 11:17 AM

    Quote
    Hythem Sidky:  Actually, I don’t think it is. And the patina is way off. It’s not part of the original inscription. Looks much later. Same goes for the man.

    Hythem Sidky is a molecular engineer. Not an epigraphist/historian, etc. In my cursus, I was trained in palaeography (Antiquity and Middle age) we were taught to decipher what was written and drawn. That is why I have spotted it.  I wonder if Jallad will make a comment about this possible cross. Wink
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9804 - September 13, 2020, 01:16 PM

    Let me put this Q&A session to continue on the subject of Quranic studies and hope Altara clarifies a bit here
    Elite Arabs were aware/ had knowledge of Quranic texts and not in a codex form.

    There was NO ISLAM  but QURANIC TEXTS.

     
    So there was NO Islam.., but  QURANIC TEXTS WERE PRESENT  

    So Questions.....

    Q1:     No Islam until what year??  until the year 632??.... 680?? ...690??

    Q2:... What actually do you mean by QURANIC TEXTS??  You mean Sana manuscripts?
    (( assuming they are the oldest Arabic Text and that    radiocarbon analysis has dated the parchment of one of the detached leaves sold at auction, and hence its lower text, to between 578 CE (44 BH) and 669 CE (49 AH) with a 95% accuracy))

    Q3: .. So you are talking about  QURANIC TEXTS BEFORE Sana manuscripts?? Quranic Text written in Arabic and  published when??  what year??  year 500?? year 600?? year 650?? and WHO ARE THESE ELITE ARABS.. any names??

    Oh this next one is important..

    Quote
    ........... If I remember correctly you said ..... there was no Arabic Script .. until the year 680..690?? or so....

    Quote



    I see you mean to say., Quran texts were present before the year 680.. ??

    Q4: .. .. So when did those Quranic texts got printed/written/published ?? were they exactly same as some chapters of present Quran?/ or were they different??  ., I mean did those Quranic texts got modified by the time they became say ...."Sana manuscripts "..  or some other say London library manuscripts ?

    Quote
    All Iraqis Arabs were bathing in a Christian (not sect) atmosphere.
    They were Christianized, but not "Christians". Christians have Scriptures in their languages (Syriac, Greek, Copt, Latin, Ethiopian, etc) Not Arabs. They do not have the Biblical Scriptures in Arabic.

    So Can I take that as...   They were Christianized, but not "Christians" because they did not had the OT/NT in Arabic  right?? 

    Q5: What faith/religions did these elite Arabs of Iraq of that time followed/practiced??

    Quote
    Altara: There was Iraq at that time: From the gulf to Edessa it is populated by Arabs and Syriacs.
    Yes, read.

    I will read.. I will .,  plenty free  time now..,,   I will read all the available PUBLISHED history of that time  that i can get my hands on..., specially from the time Alleged Prophet/messenger/god ..   The Jesus Christ to all the way to the death of Prophet/messenger/Muhamamd(PBUH)

    But I disagree with you there on  that   "There was Iraq at that time".. well Physical place  was there for billions of years .. but Iraq as country came to life around 1920... Jordan was not there.. . correct me if I am wrong., 

    So I am not sure what you  mean by Iraq was there around 7th century??   I was under the impression that word itself was coined by British in 1920s....  Can you give me a reference with the word "Iraq"... say in 9th or 10th century??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9805 - September 13, 2020, 02:41 PM

    Quote
    Q1:     No Islam until what year??  until the year 632??.... 680?? ...690??

    Islam as we know it starts to be build after the Zubayr defeat (692)

    Quote
    Q2:... What actually do you mean by QURANIC TEXTS??  You mean Sana manuscripts?
    (( assuming they are the oldest Arabic Text and that    radiocarbon analysis has dated the parchment of one of the detached leaves sold at auction, and hence its lower text, to between 578 CE (44 BH) and 669 CE (49 AH) with a 95% accuracy))


    I mean sura(s) detached and not reunited in a manuscript codex/book.  Sana manuscripts is a codex/book.

    Quote
    Q3: .. So you are talking about  QURANIC TEXTS BEFORE Sana manuscripts?? Quranic Text written in Arabic and  published when??  what year??  year 500?? year 600?? year 650?? and WHO ARE THESE ELITE ARABS.. any names?? I see you mean to say., Quran texts were present before the year 680.. ??

    1/ Yes.
    2/ There is no "publication", there is writings: between 550-600.
    3/ Elite Arabs are the leaders of each Arab community which were educated among the Persians (East) and the Romans (West)
    4/ Yes.
    Quote
    So Can I take that as...   They were Christianized, but not "Christians" because they did not had the OT/NT in Arabic  right?? 

    Yes.

    Quote
    Q5: What faith/religions did these elite Arabs of Iraq of that time followed/practised??

    Mainly Christianity. They were drawn to it slowly but surely by the Syriacs.  But they did not had the OT/NT in Arabic.

    Quote
    But I disagree with you there on  that   "There was Iraq at that time".. well Physical place  was there for billions of years .. but Iraq as country came to life around 1920... Jordan was not there.. . correct me if I am wrong., 

    Iraq was the Arabic name of this place since the conquest ; I'm pretty sure that it was the same name that Arabs gave to this land before.

    Quote
    So I am not sure what you  mean by Iraq was there around 7th century??   I was under the impression that word itself was coined by British in 1920s....  Can you give me a reference with the word "Iraq"... say in 9th or 10th century??


    This is a detail for me. Iraq was the Arabic name of this place since the conquest : academia is your friend on this.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9806 - September 14, 2020, 09:48 AM

    Islam as we know it starts to be build after the Zubayr defeat (692)

    I wonder you have any links to published papers in international journals  on that guy Abd Allah ibn al-Zubayr ibn al-Awwam 

    Quote
    I mean sura(s) detached and not reunited in a manuscript codex/book.  Sana manuscripts is a codex/book.

    You mean to say just a surah or part of surah from the book??  I would appreciate any example from you  or a    a publication link on that

    Quote
    2/ There is no "publication", there is writings: between 550-600.

    writings on what??  on rocks??  on some animal skins??

    Quote
    3/ Elite Arabs are the leaders of each Arab community which were educated among the Persians (East) and the Romans (West)

    So these elite Arab elite  had access to Arabic script as well as bible stories from Romans and Christians that were living under Persian empire??  yes.......  no.....

    And what proof do we have to assume  that they were NOT Arab Christians or Arab Jews?? and why these Arab elites  could not have access to biblical saying stories in Arabic script??

    Quote
    Mainly Christianity. They were drawn to it slowly but surely by the Syriacs.  But they did not had the OT/NT in Arabic.

    well they may not have whole OT & NT books but they must have some sort of OT & NT writings in Arabic..... let us say.......    PRE-QURANIC BIBLE in ARABIC before it became Quran manuscripts 

    Quote
    Iraq was the Arabic name of this place since the conquest ; I'm pretty sure that it was the same name that Arabs gave to this land before.


    may be you are right .,  otherwise where did these British guys got that word "Iraq"  when they made that country in 1920s...

     I am glad you are writing in CEMB forum... your posts are refreshing me the most of the history that I was locked out....

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9807 - September 14, 2020, 12:31 PM

    Quote
    I wonder you have any links to published papers in international journals  on that guy Abd Allah ibn al-Zubayr ibn al-Awwam


    You have articles in academia about him; they're all coming from international journals.
    Quote
    You mean to say just a surah or part of surah from the book??

     

    I mean the ensemble of the sura(s) but not reunited in a codex/ book . I do not know how I can be more clear Yeez... 114 sura(s) reunited together is a codex/book: The Quran as we know it. The book of sura(s) therefore the Quran as we know it is (for me...)  a late format. Before, the 114 sura(s) were not together in a codex/book but separated. There was sura X and another block of writing was sura Z, etc. not tied in a book.  
    If you do not get what I say ask Zeca! I hope he got it.

    Quote
    I would appreciate any example from you  or a  publication link on that


    A novel can be in 3 volumes and reunited in one single. There's no publication on this.

    Quote
    writings on what??  on rocks??  on some animal skins??


    Can be anything ; I incline on papyrus.
    Quote
    So these elite Arab elite  had access to Arabic script as well as bible stories from Romans and Christians that were living under Persian empire??  yes.......  no....


    Elite Arab (West and East) were Christianized: they had access to Arabic script as well as bible stories from Romans and Christians that were living under Persian empire. But not  written in Arabic script.

    Quote
    And what proof do we have to assume  that they were NOT Arab Christians or Arab Jews??

    They were Arab "Christianized", not "Christians" because they had not Arabic OT & NT in written texts.

    Quote
    and why these Arab elites could not have access to biblical saying stories in Arabic script??


    Simply because nobody took the time to translate the OT & NT in Arabic script.

    Quote
    well they may not have whole OT & NT books but they must have some sort of OT & NT writings in Arabic..... let us say.......    PRE-QURANIC BIBLE in ARABIC before it became Quran manuscripts 


    Nope.
    Quote
    I am glad you are writing in CEMB forum... your posts are refreshing me the most of the history that I was locked out....


    Cheers.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9808 - September 14, 2020, 01:24 PM

    You have articles in academia about him; they're all coming from international journals. 

    I will go through academia publications on that guy., but I wonder where did these authors got that historical information on that guy?  From hadith volumes??

    Quote
    I mean the ensemble of the sura(s) but not reunited in a codex/ book . I do not know how I can be more clear Yeez... 114 sura(s) reunited together is a codex/book: The Quran as we know it. The book of sura(s) therefore the Quran as we know it is (for me...)  a late format. Before, the 114 sura(s) were not together in a codex/book but separated. There was sura X and another block of writing was sura Z, etc. not tied in a book.  
    If you do not get what I say ask Zeca! I hope he got it.

    A novel can be in 3 volumes and reunited in one single. There's no publication on this.

    Can be anything ; I incline on papyrus.

    well I am trying to make sure dear Altara... This is such an important subject., I guess and hope  your book will  clear that dilemma  .,    and I hope I  am not irritating you with silly questions on Quran... the book.. and the story behind its formation..
    Quote
    Elite Arab (West and East) were Christianized: they had access to Arabic script as well as bible stories from Romans and Christians that were living under Persian empire. But not  written in Arabic script.  They were Arab "Christianized", not "Christians" because they had not Arabic OT & NT in written texts.

     Interesting words..  I like that word

    Christianized  Arabs so  Arabized Christians ...
    Judaised Arabs so  Arabized Jews....
    Persianized Arabs so Arabized Persians
    Americanized Arabs so Arabized Americans
    Britishized Arabs So Arabized British
    Pakistanized Arabs so Arabized Pakistanis

    lol..

    Quote
    Simply because nobody took the time to translate the OT & NT in Arabic script.

    Nope.

    FOOLISH CHRISTIANS  & JEWS....
    Quote
    Cheers.

    thanks I need it badly..


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9809 - September 14, 2020, 01:41 PM

    The Arabic Bible before Islam – By Clare Wilde 
    Quote
    Non-Muslims, including Jews and Christians, have spoken Arabic since before the revelation of the Qur’an. Was there an Arabic Bible before the rise of Islam? Or, did the appearance of the Arabic Qur’an shape the Arabic Bible? These are among the questions addressed in Sidney Griffith’s masterful book, The Bible in Arabic.

    Quote
    Although the confessional plurality of the medieval Islamic world has been the subject of significant scholarly investigation in recent years — e.g. the works of Thomas E. Burman, David Thomas, Mark Cohen, Samir Khalil Samir, Sarah Stroumsa, and Reuven Firestone) — the Arabic Bible has yet to receive its due share of attention. In The Bible in Arabic, Sidney Griffith guides us through the complexities of Jewish, Christian, and Muslim engagements with both the divine and each other as Jews and Christians came to articulate not just theology, but also their very scriptures, in the language of the Qur’an.


    The Qur’an frequently mentions biblical themes and personalities, presuming its audience’s familiarity with these traditions. The qur’anic accounts, however, are not exact replicas of canonical biblical narratives. This discrepancy has provided fodder for lively polemics between and among Christians, Jews, and Muslims for centuries. On the one hand, the Qur’an insists that it confirms that which came before. The biography of Muhammad even contains accounts of Christian and Jewish recognition of the veracity of his prophethood. Detractors of Muhammad and his message, on the other hand, have claimed that a heretical Christian taught Muhammad the garbled versions of biblical stories contained in the Qur’an. The Qur’an acknowledges — and counters — this accusation by indicating that the tongue of the supposed informant is ‘ajami (foreign? accented?), while the Qur’an is in clear (lit. “clarifying”) Arabic.

    ...................
    Quote
    The background of this claim is his decades-long engagement with Irfan Shahid, who argues that the Gospels and Psalms existed in Arabic before the rise of Islam.... Locating extant parchments from late antiquity and the early medieval period that could constitute evidence in this debate is difficult, given the usually poor condition of any manuscript of such an early provenance. Nonetheless, Griffith demonstrates how the evidence we do have “argues against [the] probability” of a pre-Islamic Arabic translation of the Bible.


    Quote
    The Bible in Arabic highlights the importance of Arabic translations of books of the Bible for biblical scholars. Whereas the Christian Bible was translated into the languages of every people who adopted Christianity, the Arabic of the Qur’an became the language of Islamic empire. Different peoples came to adopt Arabic with the emergence of various (initially, Arab-led) Muslim dynasties and the collection and codification of the Qur’an. It was the appearance of the Arabic Qur’an, Griffith argues, that “served as one of the catalysts for both Jews and Christians to undertake Arabic translations of their scriptures.” But this was neither an immediate nor a uniform process: there is no evidence of efforts to translate the entire Bible in a single project until the sixteenth century.


    .....Jews and Christians also had different motivations for their translations. Arabic Bible translations by Jews appear to have been for scholarly interpretations or commentary, while Arabic-speaking Christians undertook translation projects in order to be able to use the Bible in the vernacular in public and official contexts...............
     

    well Clare Wilde   writes that and more in that link on that book of  Prof. Sidney  Griffith


    here are that Book contents in a PDF file

    very interesting book and it is JUST 200 pages...  I guess  dr. Clare Wilde is in that  University of Groningen .. Netherlands 

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Previous page 1 ... 325 326 327328 329 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »