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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6600 - May 06, 2019, 07:12 AM

    Amir-Moezzi:

    Interesting where het sketches the parallels btw the figure of Ali and Christ. I didnt hear more proof of existence of judeo-christians. I think this parallel goes rather towards the Popp+co theory (instead of Gallez) that portrays Nestorian Christianity as the initial driver of the early Muslims. That could explain the need of a figure like Ali with his Christ-like properties.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6601 - May 06, 2019, 08:47 AM

    Quote
    What does that mean?  It means


    That she believed in the narrative as historical regarding the core story that it recounts which is: An Arab guy who wrote the Quran in the Peninsula (or further north). It is the narrative story. She was a great believer nor sceptic, nor revisionist, contrary to what is still thought and said sometimes by guys like Pregill who seems pleased to continue the legend.

     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6602 - May 06, 2019, 08:54 AM

    Amir-Moezzi:

    Interesting where het sketches the parallels btw the figure of Ali and Christ. I didnt hear more proof of existence of judeo-christians. I think this parallel goes rather towards the Popp+co theory (instead of Gallez) that portrays Nestorian Christianity as the initial driver of the early Muslims. That could explain the need of a figure like Ali with his Christ-like properties.


    (instead of Gallez). Yes. The Gallez point he notes is that the Messiah was expected and that he did not come. Then he goes to Ali.
    The only contemporary source one have about Ali : amir of al Hira. Nor cousin/gender/friend/successor of a prophet who lived in Mecca/Medina/Kaba in the peninsula (yawn...)
    Ali is Iraqi...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6603 - May 06, 2019, 03:36 PM

    Patricia Crone still affirmed what she first proposed in Hagarsim, namely, the secondariness of the Meccan sanctuary. This does not entail that there never was a town called Makkah at the dawn of Islam; she clearly believed it did. What she contested was the location of the Kaʿbah or, more precisely, the original sanctuary object of the qiblah. Crone & Cook (Hagarism, pp. 21– 22) argued, and I could be wrong (someone told me this), that Makkah existed all along and that the extant town is the one referenced in the Quran. Bakkah, on the other hand, is a different town, located further north, and that it is this town that was the actual sanctuary.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6604 - May 06, 2019, 04:38 PM

    She contested details. Never the core story : An Arab guy who wrote the Quran in the Peninsula (or further north). It is the narrative story. Does not merit what she has received as the "pope" of revisionism. Because it was not.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6605 - May 06, 2019, 04:49 PM

    ............. Then he goes to Ali..............
    The only contemporary source one have about Ali : amir of al Hira. ..........Ali is Iraqi...


    Damn you,..you seem to be good  with Sunni Islam as well as in Shia Islam  dear Altara..

    So in your view on this "Immamology of Shia Islam"  where   do  we start the authentic/ real history of these Twelver  stuff??

    Quote
    Quote
    1. Ali ibn Abu Talib  (600–661):   .The first imam and successor of Muhammad in Shia Islam; however, the Sunnis acknowledge him as the fourth Caliph as well. He holds a high position in almost all Sufi Muslim orders (Turuq); the members of these orders trace their lineage to Muhammad through him.     

    Birthplace place  Mecca, Saudi Arabia ....Assassinated by Abd-al-Rahman ibn Muljam, a Kharijite in Kufa, who slashed him with a poisoned sword.  Buried at the Imam Ali Mosque in Najaf, Iraq.


    Quote
    2. Hassan ibn Ali (624–670):  He was the eldest surviving grandson of Muhammad through Muhammad's daughter, Fatimah Zahra. Hasan succeeded his father as the caliph in Kufa, and on the basis of peace treaty with Muawiya I, he relinquished control of Iraq following a reign of seven months..

     Birthplace place Medina, Saudi Arabia  Poisoned by his wife in Medina, Saudi Arabia. Buried in Jannat al-Baqi.


    Quote
    3. Husayn ibn Ali (626–680):  He was a grandson of Muhammad. Husayn opposed the validity of Caliph Yazid I. As a result, he and his family were later killed in the Battle of Karbala by Yazid's forces. After this incident, the commemoration of Husayn ibn Ali has become a central ritual in Shia identity.,

     Birth place  Medina, Saudi Arabia .,  Killed on Day of Ashura (10 Muharram) and beheaded at the Battle of Karbala. Buried at the Imam Husayn Shrine in Karbala, Iraq.


    Quote
    4. Ja'far ibn Muhammad (702–765):  Author of prayers in Sahifa al-Sajjadiyya, which is known as "The Psalm of the Household of the Prophet."  

     Birth place  Medina, Saudi Arabia .,  According to most Shia scholars, he was poisoned on the order of Caliph al-Walid I in Medina, Saudi Arabia. Buried in Jannat al-Baqi


    Quote
    5.  Muhammad ibn Ali (677–732)::   Sunni and Shia sources both describe him as one of the early and most eminent legal scholars, teaching many students during his tenure.

     Birth place  Medina, Saudi Arabia   .,  According to some Shia scholars, he was poisoned by Ibrahim ibn Walid ibn 'Abdallah in Medina, Saudi Arabia on the order of Caliph Hisham ibn Abd al-Malik.  Buried in Jannat al-Baqi.



    we have another 7 imams  namely...
    Quote
    6.  Ja'far ibn Muhammad ., 7. Musa ibn Ja'far.,  8.Ali ibn Musa .,9. Muhammad ibn Ali .,  10. Ali ibn Muhammad.,   11. Hassan ibn Ali


    All those guys were born in US.  A  ..(( i mean Madina))  and buried around Madina and Kufa ..iraq..etc  except this 12th guy

    12..Muhammad ibn al-Hassan..
    ***************************************************************************

    So Question to you Altara.. Where do we start Authentic Shia Immamology?? 7th guy?  8th guy??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6606 - May 06, 2019, 04:58 PM

    That she believed in the narrative as historical regarding the core story 

     Nope ..She did not... Did she stop  you publishing her views on origins of   Islam  dear Altara ?

    Quote
    that it recounts which is: An Arab guy who wrote the Quran in the Peninsula (or further north). It is the narrative story.

    So what is wrong with that? .. i too say Quran was written by an Arab guy  in the Peninsula who was proficient  in Arabic language..

    This Arab guy could have come from anywhere from Arabian peninsula.. 

    Even if she was wrong on that .. you can not call her as GREAT BELIEVER.. why? what did she do to  you??
    Quote
    She was a great believer nor sceptic, nor revisionist, contrary to what is still thought and said sometimes by guys like Pregill who seems pleased to continue the legend.

     
    nope..  no..  noooooooooo.,,  and who cares about some guys make her a priest or pope .. or  poop..  i don't care.,  they are all milking her name and fame...

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6607 - May 06, 2019, 05:03 PM

    She contested details.

    WELL THAT IS THE FIRST STEP ...
    Quote
    Never the core story : An Arab guy who wrote the Quran in the Peninsula (or further north). It is the narrative story. Does not merit what she has received as the "pope" of revisionism. Because it was not.

    Nothing wrong in saying ..  north or south  east or west....An Arab guy who wrote the Quran in the Peninsula ...

    Again ..... she was/is made as pope by  other guys who are milking her first step... She didn't say ..  never said....what she says is word of Allah/god on the origins of Islam & Quran

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6608 - May 06, 2019, 05:08 PM

    Can't believe I am saying this, but I agree with Yeezevee.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6609 - May 06, 2019, 10:40 PM


    So what is wrong with that? .. i too say Quran was written by an Arab guy  in the Peninsula who was proficient  in Arabic language..


    It is being a great believer. And surely not revisionist or sceptic.

    Quote
    Even if she was wrong on that .. you can not call her as GREAT BELIEVER.. why? what did she do to  you??   


    I can. A great believer is someone who thinks that the core narrative Mecca (or further north)/Medina/Kaba/Muhammad is historical and is the frame of the emergence of the Quran. That was the case of Crone.

    Quote
    nope..  no..  noooooooooo.,,  and who cares about some guys make her a priest or pope .. or  poop..  i don't care.,  they are all milking her name and fame...


    I care.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6610 - May 06, 2019, 10:41 PM

    Can't believe I am saying this, but I agree with Yeezevee.


    Both of you are from Muslim extraction. It is then, normal.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6611 - May 06, 2019, 10:43 PM

    Nope.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6612 - May 06, 2019, 10:46 PM

    It is only semantics, really, and it depends on what one considers to be the so-called core narrative. Apart from that, anyone familiar with the book in question will tell you that it can aptly be described as revisionism Whether one prefers to go further than the authors on some issues is of no relevance. This can be quantified but I am reluctant to do so.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6613 - May 06, 2019, 11:05 PM

    Damn you,..you seem to be good  with Sunni Islam as well as in Shia Islam  dear Altara..


    I'm just an historian. I read the sources.

    Quote
    So in your view on this "Immamology of Shia Islam"  where do we start the authentic/ real history of these Twelver  stuff??


     What is "Shia Islam" would be the real question. I have (of course, yawn...) some responses about that.One have to undress of Islam (recounted by the narrative) all the Arab history of the 7th c.
    If I consider Shii narrative, I'm already curious about why it is not a Shii (if the Shii narrative is true about Ali gender of the Prophet, etc) who has claimed the leadership after Muawiya death, gathered his numerous troops against the false Muslim Muawiya (son of a great polytheist of Mecca and not really a believer, even in the end...) and fight him.
    No Shii. It was Zubayr. Curious.
    "Where were the Shii?"
    "Nowhere."
    "Huh?"
    "There was no Shii."
    "Huh?! Altara, you're crazy!"
    "Nope. I'm not (yawn)..."

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6614 - May 06, 2019, 11:08 PM

    It is only semantics, really, and it depends on what one considers to be the so-called core narrative.

    A great believer is someone who thinks that the core narrative Mecca (or further north)/Medina/Kaba/Muhammad is historical and is the frame of the emergence of the Quran. That was the case of Crone.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6615 - May 06, 2019, 11:50 PM

    and...? i really like how her actual position and its nuances, which are in contrast to the "core" of the narrative, are simply reduced to "further north". and that muhammad was historical figure if more likely than not. hardly "faith" proposition. one does need to reject parts of the "narrative" for simply being part of the "narrative". same goes for the tows madinah and makkah and the the kabah as well. much more can be said as to what she established or, at least, argued for, that is contrary to the "narrative". granted, not everything she beleived was in line with "revisionsit" thought, but that is neither here  or there.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6616 - May 07, 2019, 12:16 AM

    Quote
    and...?

     It is being a great believer. And not revisionist or sceptic.That was the case of Crone.
    Quote
    that is contrary to the "narrative".


    Report to your list. It was details of the narrative to which she was not agree. Details which have no importance (at all) related to the emergence of the Quran recounted by it. Not a piece of importance : details.
    She thinks historical the narrative related to the Quran . Mecca (or further north, it has no importance)/Medina/Kaba/ Muhammad (Zem zem...)
    But what matters is the Quran. She never contested what recounts the narrative about it.
    She was not revisionist or sceptic.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6617 - May 07, 2019, 09:29 AM

    ............a great believer. And surely not revisionist or sceptic.

    ...............A great believer ...........................That was the case of Crone.

    I care.


    i  must have read that  word some 100   times  ...

    YOU CARE about her and her work??   why?

    there  is  some serious problem  between you and  her dear Altara.. 

    Quote
    .................... a great believer..................................

    ...........A great believer ...................


    It is being a great believer. And not revisionist or sceptic.That was the case of Crone.
    Report to your list. It was details of the narrative to which she was not agree. Details which have no importance (at all) related to the emergence of the Quran recounted by it. Not a piece of importance : details.
    She thinks historical the narrative related to the Quran . Mecca (or further north, it has no importance)/Medina/Kaba/ Muhammad (Zem zem...)
    But what matters is the Quran. She never contested what recounts the narrative about it.
    She was not revisionist or sceptic.



    I'm just an historian. ...........
     What is "Shia Islam" would be the real question........
    "There was no Shii."
    "Huh?! Altara, crazy!"

    well   we talk    and i learn about "shii"  in another discourse   but here  we talk about "she".,  ....indeed "she"  made a big hole ....

    Ohyee  Altara
    a great believer of "she was great believer"
    she  was  made to make big holes  in Islam
    and  she  was  made to make big holes 
    in the hearts and minds of men
    there is no lady to fill  that hole now
     And YOU ARE CRAZY & DRUNK


     Cheesy

    So  dear  Altara there  are 1000 of books and 10s of 1000s of publications from so-called Academic scholars  that explored origins of Islam and quran.  Now  give me names of scholars and links of few publications on early Islamic history who  were  revisionist or skeptic.  and whose books/publications shook  the foundations of Islam

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6618 - May 07, 2019, 09:35 AM

    Quote
    Can't believe I am saying this, but I agree with Yeezevee.

    Both of you are from Muslim extraction. 



    Damn you  dear Mahgraye.,  ...Stop agreeing with me .....

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6619 - May 07, 2019, 12:36 PM

    i  must have read that  word some 100   times  ...

    YOU CARE about her and her work??   why?


    Because her reputation (sceptic, etc) (Pregill, etc) is simply wrong. I suspect moreover that the perpetual emphasize about it is rather odd. Is it to prevent other scholars to dig? Possibly. It is then forbidden to really dig. As I do. At once the Crone case, raised (and lead) by almost all Anglo-Saxon scholarship crush you, whereas when one looks closely to Crone's work, one realizes that she was not what they pretend, since she believed to the core narrative, changing only some details which do not question it about the Quran.
    Maghgraye has made a list above: no constestation of the master narrative, only details which have no relationship with the Quran.

    Quote
    there  is  some serious problem  between you and  her dear Altara..  


    Haha! I have no problems with anyone.

    Quote
    So dear  Altara there are 1000 of books and 10s of 1000s of publications from so-called Academic scholars  that explored origins of Islam and quran.  Now  give me names of scholars and links of few publications on early Islamic history who  were  revisionist or skeptic.  and whose books/publications shook  the foundations of Islam


    The only one would be Wansbrough. Still his awful and cryptic style prevent him to really be disseminated.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6620 - May 07, 2019, 01:04 PM

    Because her reputation (sceptic, etc) (Pregill, etc) is simply wrong. I suspect moreover that the perpetual emphasize about it is rather odd. Is it to prevent other scholars to dig? Possibly. It is then forbidden to really dig. As I do. At once the Crone case, raised (and lead) by almost all Anglo-Saxon scholarship crush you, whereas when one looks closely to Crone's work, one realizes that she was not what they pretend, since she believed to the core narrative, changing only some [u]details [/u]which do not question it about the Quran.
    Maghgraye has made a list above: no constestation of the master narrative, only details which have no relationship with the Quran.

    Haha! I have no problems with anyone.

    wait ....  let me hide all that stuff which centers  around  Pregill, etc and the like  following/praising Crone's work  which you think stopped the progress of investigations on Origins of quran/Islam
    Quote
    The only one would be Wansbrough. Still his awful and cryptic style prevent him to really be disseminated.



    So ONLY  ONE GUY  out of thousands scholars  of Islam??  well i wrote about him in this very folder at  https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27568.msg882731#msg882731

    In fact all these guys such as....Andrew Rippin, Norman Calder, G. R. Hawting,   including Patricia Crone and Michael Cook were his students..,  And  John Wansbrough  edited/corrected  that booklet  Hagarism .,  And  i say With their work Hagarism   Patricia Crone and Michael Cook  indeed  set a milestone in Islamic Studies with reference to  Revisionist school of Islamic studies on the origins of Quran and Islam. .

     Unless and until you come with other names  in Academics., I am forced to give the credit to that book  Hagarism., That work  started ball rolling and argued people to think beyond the stories Muslim thinkers/writers/story tellers and Islamists.. mullahs.. imams ..Idiots of Islam etc..etc..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6621 - May 07, 2019, 01:53 PM

    Quote
    And  i say With their work Hagarism Patricia Crone and Michael Cook  indeed  set a milestone in Islamic Studies with reference to  Revisionist school of Islamic studies on the origins of Quran and Islam.

    Andrew Rippin, Norman Calder, G. R. Hawting,  can say what they want. Like me (yawn...)
    There is not one piece of word about the Quran in Hagarism. Read the list of Maghraye regarding what modifies the so called "revisionnist" Crone :
    -He preached the return of the Messiah :detail : Doctrina Jacobi
    -He allied with Jews :detail : Sebeos
    -He sought the Holy Land:detail : Doctrina Jacobi

    Those are details and do not question the master narrative of the emergence of the Quran.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6622 - May 07, 2019, 02:16 PM

    Altara is really going against established knowledge.... everyone is literally wrong. did not know hagarims was majmu3 al-fatawa by ibn taymiyya... again, alatara comes decades later when he has access to new materail and hypothesis and ergo comlains that hagarism was not revisionis enought. in hagarism, crone & cook proposed a marwanid era redaction, and granted, they did not discuss the quran. crone did that later on.

    revisonism started in the 70s by Luling, Wansbrough, and Crone & Cook. end  of story. this is descriptive and not semantics. and yeah, azami was not a traditionist....
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6623 - May 07, 2019, 03:48 PM

    Quote
    crone & cook proposed a marwanid era redaction, and granted, they did not discuss the quran. crone did that later on.


    The only issue is the Quran (as text) BUT in its historical context. It cannot be separated as Crone & Cook did. It has to be articulated one to the other.Crone discusses the Quran taking the master narrative as context : what a great "revisionnist"!!!  Cheesy Meaning that she adhered to this narrative, Hagarism or not.



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6624 - May 07, 2019, 04:09 PM

    Andrew Rippin, Norman Calder, G. R. Hawting,  can say what they want. Like me (yawn...)

    well   as long as you are also in the same group  and YAWN ON YOUR OWN WORK that is fine ..  but  again you  conveniently evading this

       ........ i say With their work Hagarism   Patricia Crone and Michael Cook  indeed  set a milestone in Islamic Studies with reference to  Revisionist school of Islamic studies on the origins of Quran and Islam. .

    Unless and until you come with other names  in Academics., I am forced to give the credit to that book  Hagarism., That work  started ball rolling and argued people to think beyond the stories Muslim thinkers/writers/story tellers and Islamists.. mullahs.. imams ..Idiots of Islam etc..etc..

     
    So dear Altara((the revisionist WHO  NEVER REVISED ANYTHING IN ISLAM  Cheesy Cheesy)).   answer those highlighted words

    Quote
    There is not one piece of word about the Quran in Hagarism. Read the list of Maghraye regarding what modifies the so called "revisionnist" Crone :
    -He preached the return of the Messiah :detail : Doctrina Jacobi
    -He allied with Jews :detail : Sebeos
    -He sought the Holy Land:detail : Doctrina Jacobi

    yes i am reading Maghraye .....well but  what is wrong saying that??

    Quote
    Those are details and do not question the master narrative of the emergence of the Quran.

    Yes the book  says nothing about Quran., because THAT BOOK IS NOTHING TO DO (or very little  to do with )with Quran .,

    the book was about this...
    Quote
    PART 1: WHENCE ISLAM?
    1 Judeo-Hagarism
    2 Hagarism without Judaism
    3 The Prophet like Moses
    4 The Samaritan calques
    5 · Babylonia


    rest is notes of  Appendix I:     Appendix 2  ..etc..etc..

    So Book was the first step to put  traditional   Islamic  song  Mecca Madina Zam Zam in to Altara's mind.. and now Alatara sings that all the time..   Cheesy Cheesy .

    So.. So dear Altara give the credit to the book and  to Patricia Crone for her stellar work..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6625 - May 07, 2019, 07:54 PM

    I wouldnt go as far as to say Crone is a great believer but she does believe the main frame narrative of "an arab guy", hearing God, reciting it, and having people falling in shock and awe hearing these divine words and then forgetting them  for a century or so (explained in her article about legal issues).

    I think we indeed need to disconnect the Quran of this "arab guy"we know as Mohammed to advance in our understanding.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6626 - May 07, 2019, 08:06 PM

    I would not go as far as to say Crone is a great believer ........but she does believe the main frame narrative of "an arab guy", hearing God, reciting it, and having people falling in shock and awe hearing these divine words and then forgetting them  for a century or so (explained in her article about legal issues)..............

    you have NOT read that book dear mundi.,   you seem to have problem  in differentiating  between belief & hypothesis

    Quote
    I think we indeed need to disconnect the Quran of this "arab guy"we know as Mohammed to advance in our understanding.

    well we know nothing about that word " Mohammed"  and please read this
    Quote
    Virtually all accounts of the early development of Islam take it as axiomatic that it is possible to elicit at least the outlines of the process from the Islamic sources. It is however well-known that these sources are not demonstrably early. There is no hard evidence for the existence of the Koran in  any form before the last decade of the seventh century, and the tradition which places this rather opaque revelation in its historical context is not  attested before the middle of the eighth. The historicity of the Islamic tradition is thus to some degree problematic: ......

    The only way out of the· dilemma is thus to step outside the Islamic tradition altogether and start again.....

    that is first paragraph of that book.. what do you get from that dear mundi??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6627 - May 07, 2019, 08:12 PM

    .................. (explained in her article about legal issues)....................

    you mean this article in your post??

    On Crone:

    Agree that she was a believer.
     ( https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/mohammed_3866jsp/)

    There is a  lot of faith needed      to be reasonably sure about this...



    What do we actually know about Mohammed?   by Patricia Crone   ..10 June 2008

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6628 - May 07, 2019, 08:48 PM

    Quote
    There is no hard evidence for the existence of the Koran in  any form before the last decade of the seventh century,


    Obviously Crone was wrong here. Earliest manuscripts might even date from before 650.

    The article I was referring to and which I think is very good:

    http://www.almuslih.org/Library/Crone,%20P%20-%20Two%20legal%20problems.pdf
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6629 - May 07, 2019, 09:04 PM

    Crone and the legal problems:

    She doesnt give an explanation for what she describes namely the discrepancy btw the text of the Quran and the legal practice in the first centuries. But of course, Crone did not have the benefit of knowing the result of the C14 dating. Maybe we these data, she would ahve come to some  theory which would match the findings.

    I think the very early fixed Quran, not accessible to most fits rather well with the "legal problems"(Sinai also mentions her article). The rasm was there amongst some "litterati" or "illuminati"I would say, and was only spread to the plebs decades later. Then the intellectuals began to adapt their rules according to this holy text that was quite difficult to understand since there was no continuity in the understanding.
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