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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10320 - July 07, 2021, 08:57 PM

    I was not speaking of 'prayers'.

    Oh I see ..  Oops my mistake..

    Quote
    Apart Q 1 (more or less) there is no 'prayers' in the Quran.


    Q1?  who knows what was Q1 to start with dear Altara?  ] To start with Q1 could have been Q5 or something else., THAT WRITTEN BOOK was/is screwed up long ago or even  to begin with., No one knows what is Q1 and what is Q114.,  but but., as for as  prayer for faith-heads is concerned,  we can selectively string  10/15 verses together and make   some 5 or 6 make shift prayer songs out of those so-called 6200 verses...  anyways let me read that Q1...

    Quote
    In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
     All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.
     The Beneficent, the Merciful.
     Master of the Day of Judgment.
     Thee do we serve and Thee do we beseech for help.
     Keep us on the right path.
     The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors.
    Not (the path) of those upon whom Thy wrath is brought down, nor of those who go astray. 


    But even that Q1 or any other prayer songs out of that book ., we got to make some  gender neutral wording to make prayers songs out of it

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10321 - July 09, 2021, 06:05 PM

    https://www.amazon.com/Controversies-over-Islamic-Origins-Mun/dp/1527568210/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=munim+sirry&qid=1625853738&sr=8-6
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10322 - July 10, 2021, 05:04 PM






    he sounds like a very smart guy dear Altara... He appears to have written PART OF YOUR BOOK...

    Quote
    1). What evidence do we have to reconstruct the origins of Islam?

    2). On the basis of what sources can the first century of Islam be accessed?

    3). Why do historians of early Islam consider the literary sources of Islamic origins to be so problematic?

    4). How is the problem of early Islamic history framed?

    This book addresses these critical questions by discussing various approaches to the problem of reconstructing Islamic origins. In a spirit of welcoming diverse perspectives and encouraging healthy scholarly debate, it explores different, even conflicting modern theories about the emergence of Islam through various case studies, including recent debates on the Quran, the biography of the Prophet, and early conquest narratives. A broad spectrum of both traditionalist and revisionist scholarship is critically examined with the purpose of illuminating not only how modern scholars differ, but also what they have in common.

    Not sure he answered those questions but questions are good

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zneH1g3U8cg

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10323 - July 11, 2021, 11:34 PM

    Sample extract from his book

    https://www.cambridgescholars.com/resources/pdfs/978-1-5275-6821-1-sample.pdf
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10324 - July 12, 2021, 11:55 AM



    thank you Mark., it is good stuff from Mun'im Sirry ., very smart guy., but I wonder whether he says ANYWHERE IN HIS PUBLICAIONS OR IN THE BOOKS.. that QURAN IS NOT WORD OF ALLAH/GOD whatever ...., He actually studied in Pakistan ....

    I would consider ALL ACEDAMICS WITH Ph. D. degrees and work in a University and and  write books/publications on faith MUST WRITE A STATEMENT whether they consider that Quran or any religious so-called scriptural book is word Allah/God.. whatever .,     but I am glad he wrote that book ...

    Quote
    ...This is not to say that prior to 1970s traditional beliefs about Islamic origins were always accepted at face value. However, the newer wave of critical scholarship, rooted in western studies of Islam conducted in the 1970s, has been quite successful in exposing major weaknesses of the traditional narrative. To mention but a few examples, the renowned British scholar John Wansbrough’s influential books Qur’anic Studies (1977) and The Sectarian Milieu (1978) basically view the traditional Muslim sources as literary works, not historical records. For Wansbrough, these sources present salvation history rather than a history of “what really happened.”

      In 1977, Patricia Crone and Michael Cook also published their provocative book Hagarism and John Burton published The Collection of the Qur’an, both inspired by Wansbrough’s methodology. These four works, of course, differ from one another, but as a whole, they offer a totally different explanation of the emergence of Islam than the generally accepted traditionalist account............


    that is what he said at that link  and I wonder whether you read that John Burton book on "The Collection of the Qur’an, .pdf"

    that is a good one to read

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10325 - July 12, 2021, 06:18 PM

    OOooooPs.....  They Called Me Deviant



    and that is  what Mun’im Sirry  says   on Aug 2017  and apparently it happened because of his  remarks on the "origins of the Quran"

    well Sirry  you are LUCKY THEY JUST CALLED YOU DEVIANT., in a wrong place.. wrong time they would have called you devil and would have stoned you ., well read the rest at the link

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10326 - July 20, 2021, 08:00 AM

    Altara, 

    What may be a proper source to study the arab history  and movements for the first half of the 7th century?
    I was searching some material obout the origins of the umayyads, cannot find anything which does not necessarily repeat the mekkan context. Do we have anything outside it?

    Thanks
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10327 - July 21, 2021, 07:53 AM

    well Spaghetti  asking questions and our Altara bologn is no where to respond ., well let me answer  those Qs
    1.   Altara, 

    What may be a proper source to study the arab history  and movements for the first half of the 7th century?

    The proper source of arab history  and movements for the first half of the 7th century  is in one of the chapters of a book written by  Altara .. yet to be  published  Cheesy
    Quote
    I was searching some material obout the origins of the umayyads, cannot find anything which does not necessarily repeat the mekkan context. Do we have anything outside it?

    Thanks

    THAT IS THE BIGGEST MYSTERY OF ISLAM dear Spaghettibologn.,  If we remove the stories that were written in 9/10th century on those so-called FOUR HORSE MEN .... THE  Rashidun Caliphate,....  . you will know nothing about these guys ., in fact for me THE NAMES OF THESE GUYS ARE ALSO A PROBLEM ., Our good friend Altara calls them as Knights Templar of Islam   or  Freemasons  of Islam ...

    And actually he may be right...  look at the timeline of these four guys at https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22184.0    including Prophet of Islam

    Quote
    571: Birth of the Holy Prophet. Year of the Elephant

    632: Death of the Holy Prophet
    632: Election of Hadrat Abu Bakr as the Caliph.
    634: Death of Hadrat Abu Bakr.
    634: Hadrat Umar Farooq becomes the Caliph
    644: Martyrdom of Hadrat Umar.
    644:  Hadrat Othman becomes the Caliph.
    656: Martyrdom of Hadrat Othman.
    661: Martyrdom of Hadrat Ali.
    661: Mu'awiyah becomes the sole Caliph.
    680: Death of Muawiyah. Accession of Yazid. Tragedy of Kerbala and martyrdom of Hadrat Hussain.

    All that stuff is Mystery with Mystical names unless you take the stories written in 9/10 the century or later as History of these guys

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10328 - July 22, 2021, 08:38 PM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/shahanSean/status/1418239682958270467
    Quote
    It's been a while since I've written a thread, but someone recently asked me whether or not there is a connection between the famous ḥadīth about the prostration of the sun in the Ṣaḥīḥ of al-Bukhārī and a passage in the Alexander Legend. Here’s my attempt at a cogent answer …

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10329 - July 22, 2021, 11:26 PM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTqbWLkHT7c
    Quote
    Session 1 : Le Coran et les ambitions impériales omeyyades / The Qur’an and Umayyad Struggle for Imperial Power
    00:00 Mehdy SHADDEL (University of Leiden), “The Birth of Islam in Umayyad Syria: From Ethno-Religious Movement to Imperial Religion”
    34:08  Discutant : Bastien DUMONT (Université Paris 1 Panthéon-Sorbonne)

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10330 - July 23, 2021, 02:52 PM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/shahanSean/status/1418239682958270467

    Quote
    It's been a while since I've written a Thread, but someone recently asked me whether or not there is a connection between the famous ḥadīth about the prostration of the sun in the Ṣaḥīḥ of al-Bukhārī and a passage in the Alexander Legend. Here’s my attempt at a cogent answer …


    First, let’s look at the ḥadīth. Abū Ḏarr al-Ġifārī reports that he was at the mosque with the prophet at sundown, and unprompted the prophet asked,
    “Abū Ḏarr, do you know where the sun sets?” “God and his messenger know best,” he replied. He answered, ...

    Quote
    “[The sun] proceeds until she prostrates (tasğuda) beneath the Throne; she asks permission, and permission is granted her. But soon [the sun] shall prostrate and it will not be accepted, and she shall seek permission but shall not receive it. It will be said to her, ...


    Return to whence you came!”, and she will rise in West. That is meaning of the Exalted’s decree, «The Sun proceed along a course of its own; that is the decree of the All-Knowing Almighty» (Q. Yāsīn 36:38).”


      all that and this png pic i see about Alexander

     

    is from Sean W. Anthony twitter that zeca posted..

    MY SIMPE QUESTION IS.,  WHY GO ALEXANDER? WHY GO THAT FAR   320/350 BC??

    why not go in to bible books and read   about sun??  here https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=sun&version=NIV

    I am sure some  Quran writers of that time could easily make a statement that we see  in Quran as well as in hadith from those bible statements on sun ..
     
     

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10331 - July 26, 2021, 10:37 AM

    Altara, 

    What may be a proper source to study the arab history  and movements for the first half of the 7th century?
    I was searching some material obout the origins of the umayyads, cannot find anything which does not necessarily repeat the mekkan context. Do we have anything outside it?
    Thanks


    Origin of the Arabs who are at the Yarmuk battle (636) who will become the "Umayyads": All scholarly work repeats more or less the Muslim narrative.  Is this historical? Nope.
    Question is then, who are these Arabs?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10332 - July 26, 2021, 10:40 AM


    Bastien DUMONT (Université Paris 1 Panthéon-Sorbonne) has some difficulties to make something of what Shaddel said.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10333 - July 26, 2021, 10:44 AM


    The Dye lecture: YT Britton subs available
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJphpYBk6y0&t=2754s
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10334 - July 26, 2021, 12:04 PM

    Thanks Altara,

    So, if these arabs are at Yarmuk and the question who are these people and if all scholarly work repeat the same music, then where shall we look into to get a historical view? Any suggestion?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10335 - July 26, 2021, 12:13 PM

    And Altara

    I am trying to understand the issue raised by you and Kerr about the quranic language and script.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/phdnix/status/1415001180254740489?s=21

    I found this question posed to van Putten time ago.
    He says that in najran we alredy have an inscription in quranic arabic. Script is different, but the arabic is the same.
    So he is saying that kerr is wrong and this hypothesis does not work.

    Indeed looks like that al jallad is telling him that hima inscription is most probably left over by travellers.
    This is probably due to the fact the the intensity and frequency of srabic inscriptions in the north is way hihger than in the south and one single inscription is the exception to confirm the rule.

    Did i got it right?
    Are there other observations about the hima inscription which may convince van putten that kerr is right?

    Is al jallad acknoledging the problem and van putten hiding his head in the sand?

    I sometime find difficult to understand van putten. He is very quick in rebuking western scholars but hesitant toward criticism of the tradition.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10336 - July 26, 2021, 05:14 PM

    Thanks Altara,

    So, if these arabs are at Yarmuk and the question who are these people and if all scholarly work repeat the same music, then where shall we look into to get a historical view? Any suggestion?


    You should look at  when, how, why, and for whom (armed) Arabs where more or less at the same place in the past of the 7th c.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10337 - July 26, 2021, 08:46 PM

    Thanks Altara.
    I got the point.
    It means a long hard work.
    Have you a name to suggest? Just to start from a not to wide prospective.

    And ... what do you thi k of hima inscription near najran mentioned by van putten?
    That is way south from hijaz and najran is trade passage.
    And as van putten says that if zulu is still zulu even if written in roman, still is written in roman and not zulu. And is made by a zulu educated in roman script for necessity.
    If there is no such inscription in central hijaz then means there was no such practice there.
    And what is the date of hima inscription? Is it authentic?
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10338 - July 28, 2021, 11:05 AM

    What does it matter that there are some lone Arabic inscriptions in the South? It is clear that the leading culture there did not use the Northern Arabic script, but the Southern one.

    Kerr is right. All signs for an established culture using the Arabic script point to the North, not to Mecca or Yatrib where about noting is found (In the Dye talk the population of Mecca 6-7 th C is estimated at 600...).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10339 - July 28, 2021, 02:50 PM


    Kerr is right. All signs for an established culture using the Arabic script point to the North, not to Mecca or Yatrib where about noting is found (In the Dye talk the population of Mecca 6-7 th C is estimated at 600...).

    Hi mundi .. If Robert Kerr is right then what do we do with Petra and Dan Gibson??  ..lol.,  Seriously we need to carefully analyze Robert Kerr work on early Islam..

    And what is your present opinion on Dan Gibson's theory?

    Quote


      and where do we draw line on the geographical Saudi Arabia., as Northern  Arabia and southern Arabia ??

    Can I make the present South Yemen as southern Arabia  and present Jordan as Northern  Arabia?   glad to see you back..

    https://understandingislam.today/is-mecca-or-petra-islams-true-birthplace/

     http://rootsofislamtruehistory.com/subpages/Kerr_Robert_origine-koranic-script.htm
     
    http://rootsofislamtruehistory.com/subpages/Kerr_Robert_origine-koranic-writing_fichiers/image002.jpg

    good stuff.. good stuff..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10340 - July 28, 2021, 06:08 PM

    Hello Yeez,

    Gibson is wrong. The early mosques don't point to Petra. But some do by coïncidence.
    But Gibson is also right. The early mosques don't point to Mecca.
    And I think Kerr is right. He says that the mention of Qbl in the Quran does not mean qibla as prayer direction but is rather "tradition' as in 'kabalah'...

    I think pre 650 there was no specific prayer direction.
    And I dont think that a full fledged army coming from Mecca (with 600 inhabitants) is realistic.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10341 - July 29, 2021, 05:16 PM

    Hello Yeez,

    Gibson is wrong. The early mosques don't point to Petra. But some do by coïncidence.
    But Gibson is also right. The early mosques don't point to Mecca.

    well before Gibson many other printed that but I was under the impression that you supported Gibson's theory of Petra as Islam's qib·lah...  I wonder Gibson is thinking that Petra was tradition 'kabalah'...before 5th century before Islam ??
    Quote
    And I think Kerr is right. He says that the mention of Qbl in the Quran does not mean qibla as prayer direction but is rather "tradition' as in 'kabalah'...

    I fully agree with Robert Kerr on that

    Quote
    I think pre 650 there was no specific prayer direction. And I dont think that a full fledged army coming from Mecca (with 600 inhabitants) is realistic.

     I fully agree with Altara song Muhmmad/Mecca/Medina is all water .. The zam zam water ..

    but this prayer direction towards Mecca what year you think was initiated and by whom. which Caliph??  well let me put this link here and think abut it

    https://www.arcgis.com/apps/MapJournal/index.html?appid=ccaa5de05d8e45e88059da17f3533533

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10342 - August 01, 2021, 06:30 PM

    Emran El-Badawi - Readings of the Qur’an from outside the tradition

    https://www.academia.edu/50409975/Readings_of_the_Qur_an_from_outside_the_tradition
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10343 - August 01, 2021, 08:41 PM

    Ahmad Al-Jallad - What was spoken at Yathrib (Medinah) before the spread of Arabic?

    https://safaitic.blogspot.com/2021/07/what-was-spoken-at-yathrib-medinah.html
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10344 - August 04, 2021, 03:20 PM

    Ahmad Al-Jallad - What was spoken at Yathrib (Medinah) before the spread of Arabic?

    https://safaitic.blogspot.com/2021/07/what-was-spoken-at-yathrib-medinah.html


    So that  blog spot of zeca post connects me to this https://safaitic.blogspot.com/2021/05/imruu-l-qays-and-sabaic-inscription.html  blog spot   it says   with this bronze plaque

    Quote
       Imruʾu l-Qays and the Sabaic inscription Haram 40

    Thursday, May 6, 2021 In Ancient South Arabia, over two-thousand years ago, a man named Ḥaram son of Ṯawbān commissioned this bronze plaque as an act of penitence. His crime: he approached a woman during menstruation and engaged in intercourse with her. The inscription describes in detail the act that led to his ritual impurity. Here is the relevant section:

    w-hn ms¹ ʾn*ṯ*<m> ḥyḍ<m> w-lm yġts¹l w-hn nḍḫ ʾks¹wt-<h>w hmr<m>

    'because he touched a menstruating woman and did not wash and because semen defiled (lit. wet) his clothing'

    For this, Ḥaram had to pay a fine of an unspecified amount and publicly repent. There are a good number of 'northern (Haramic)' Sabaic texts belonging to this genre, which detail a variety of sins and fines to be paid. While there is certainly a lot to say about the social and historical context of this inscription, what struck my eye when reading it was the collocation of the verbs yġtsl 'to wash' and nḍḫ 'to wet, moisten'. This pair occurs again in a line of Imru' al-Qays' muʿallaqah. Let us set up the scene:

    The protagonist is on a hunt when there appears a flock of sheep wild sheep. The ewes are compared to beautiful virgins of Duwār (a shrine), with long robes. He overtakes them and slaughters them for eating.

     فَعَنَّ لَنَا سِرْبٌ كَأَنَّ نِعَاجَهُ
    عَذَارَى دَوَارٍ فِي مُلاءٍ مُذيَل

    'Then there appeared before us a flock, the ewes of which like the virgins of Duwār in long robes'
    ...

    فَعَادَى عِدَاءً بَيْنَ ثَوْرٍ ونَعْجَةٍ
    دِرَاكًا، وَلَمْ يَنْضَحْ بِمَاءٍ فَيُغْسَلِ
    'He, overtaking them, then killed them one by one, bull and cow alike, and did not break into a sweat that he should be washed'

    The final phrase, in italics, uses collocated cognates of the Sabaic phrase mentioned earlier; compare wa lam yanḍaḥ bi-māʾin fa-yuġsal to Sabaic w-lm yġts¹l w-hn nḍḫ ʾks¹wt-<h>w hmr<m>. Arabic māʾ can also be used of semen, cf. Sabaic hmrm. Is this a coincidence? In light of comparing the sheep to maidens associated with a shrine, namely Duwār, it seems unlikely. Rather, the poem of Imru' al-Qays seems to be drawing on the same ritualistic language to describe this hunting scene. But unlike Ḥaram, our protagonist does not defile himself with "water" lam yanḍaḥ bi-māʾin and so he does not require purification, yuġsal. In other words, the Arabic poem is the mirror opposite of the Sabaic text. It speaks to the protagonist's maintaining of ritual purity during the hunt, which was a sacral activity after all.

    The linguistic connection between these two texts, separated by many centuries, speaks to a common core of ritualistic language. It is impossible to know if in the 6th c., when this poem was supposedly compiled, poets understood the full signification of the metaphor or if it simply a stock phrase used in artistic compositions such as this. Nevertheless, the continuity between the pre-Islamic odes and earlier Arabian material is significant and, as I have shown in other studies, speaks to the layered character of the pre-Islamic Qasidah odes, parts of which certainly reflect later interpolation and others stretching far back into the pre-Islamic past.
     
    A note on the language of the inscription:
    The language of the penitence inscriptions was classified by Stein (2007) as the 'northern' dialect of Sabaic or Haramic (or Amiritic), from the region of Haram where they were produced. These texts betray the impact of a North Arabian variety, as seen in the use of lam as a negator. But their main grammatical character is Sabaic. If these texts were composed by North Arabians using Sabaic as a literary language, then this would further support the cultural and linguistic ties to the pre-Islamic Arabic Qasidahs. Imru' al-Qays was, after all, a Kindite, a northern group that in pre-Islamic times used Sabaic as a literary language but - at least by the 6th c. CE - used Arabic as a vernacular.

    well That is what that blog spot says   So I read Quran verse 2:222
     
     
    Quote
    وَيَسْأَلُونَكَ عَنِ الْمَحِيضِ ۖ قُلْ هُوَ أَذًى فَاعْتَزِلُوا النِّسَاءَ فِي الْمَحِيضِ ۖ وَلَا تَقْرَبُوهُنَّ حَتَّىٰ يَطْهُرْنَ ۖ فَإِذَا تَطَهَّرْنَ فَأْتُوهُنَّ مِنْ حَيْثُ أَمَرَكُمُ اللَّهُ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُحِبُّ التَّوَّابِينَ وَيُحِبُّ الْمُتَطَهِّرِينَ

     
    Yusuf Ali:   They ask thee concerning women's courses. Say: They are a hurt and a pollution: So keep away from women in their courses, and do not approach them until they are clean. But when they have purified themselves, ye may approach them in any manner, time, or place ordained for you by Allah. For Allah loves those who turn to Him constantly and He loves those who keep themselves pure and clean.

    Mohsin Khan:   They ask you concerning menstruation. Say: that is an Adha (a harmful thing for a husband to have a sexual intercourse with his wife while she is having her menses), therefore keep away from women during menses and go not unto them till they are purified (from menses and have taken a bath). And when they have purified themselves, then go in unto them as Allah has ordained for you (go in unto them in any manner as long as it is in their vagina). Truly, Allah loves those who turn unto Him in repentance and loves those who purify themselves (by taking a bath and cleaning and washing thoroughly their private parts, bodies, for their prayers).

    Shakir:   And they ask you about menstruation. Say: It is a discomfort; therefore keep aloof from the women during the menstrual discharge and do not go near them until they have become clean; then when they have cleansed themselves, go in to them as Allah has commanded you; surely Allah loves those who turn much (to Him), and He loves those who purify themselves.

    Pickthall:   They question thee (O Muhammad) concerning menstruation. Say: It is an illness, so let women alone at such times and go not in unto them till they are cleansed. And when they have purified themselves, then go in unto them as Allah hath enjoined upon you. Truly Allah loveth those who turn unto Him, and loveth those who have a care for cleanness.

    Saheeh:   And they ask you about menstruation. Say, "It is harm, so keep away from wives during menstruation. And do not approach them until they are pure. And when they have purified themselves, then come to them from where Allah has ordained for you. Indeed, Allah loves those who are constantly repentant and loves those who purify themselves.


    Oh well..... what can I say....except Now I am more interested in those bronze plaques of Arabian peninsula

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10345 - August 07, 2021, 08:14 AM

    I just came over this tweet by Sean W. Anthony. on a thread by Kha Andani.
    Kha Andani:
    "There are about 40ish textual variants between the four original Uthmanic codices of the Quran.  These are scribal errors."https://twitter.com/KhalilAndani/status/1418778702255636481?s=20
    .............
    Sean Anthony:
    "To the contrary: Christian scribes were hired to copy the text of the Qur'an rather often it seems. It's not farfetched to imagine that some of earliest copies were not copied by Muslims at all."
    https://twitter.com/shahanSean/status/1422570987166523395?s=20

    So maybe it was Christian scribes who made the first copies of the Quran. Could that in some way influenced the text? Maybe it hardly was any "Muslim" that could do this? I write "Muslim", since in the beginning they just called themselves  "believers" and that the Muslim identity and the "parting of the ways" happened in the 720s or 730s!

    Do you agree with Andani that the textual variants are due to scribal errors in the Uthmanic codices?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10346 - August 07, 2021, 10:11 PM

    I just came over this tweet by Sean W. Anthony. on a thread by Kha Andani.
    Kha Andani:

    "There are about 40ish textual variants between the four original Uthmanic codices of the Quran.  These are scribal errors."https://twitter.com/KhalilAndani/status/1418778702255636481?s=20
    ......................................

    THAT MUSLIM INFIDEL better not travel  to Iran The Islamic Republic

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10347 - August 09, 2021, 08:46 PM

    Christian scribes:

    I don tknow if Anthony has proof that Christian scribes were used to copy the Quran.

    But the early Arabic papyri show that the Arabs already had their own administrative customs. The language and script which was used shows that the writing was in line with the Quranic Arabic. So there must have been a high degree of standardisation linked to institutions teaching this standardised Arabic.

    What were the Arabs before being Muslim? Christian or Jewish? or both? Who were the ones teaching in their "language schools"? Christians or Jews? Did they need "outsiders" to copy their Quran? I can imagine they did not since there is material evidence of an Arabic administration being used by the conquerors very early on (eg the 644 papyrus). So why not have a set of scribes, hand picked from the school graduates to copy hte Quran? Being used to writing Arabic must have greatly helped to do a good job. Why hire some Greek writing monks if you have Arabic writing scribes at your disposal? I guess just a handful of scribes would be enough to give the project a kick start. No need to outsource it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10348 - August 12, 2021, 04:55 PM

    shahan Sean twits some SPECULATIVE twit with this Arabic words in a jpeg



    And mundi adds MORE SPECULATION ON TOP OF THAT
    Quote
    https://twitter.com/shahanSean/status/1422570987166523395/photo/1
    To the contrary: Christian scribes were hired to copy the text of the Qur'an rather often it seems. It's not farfetched to imagine that some of earliest copies were not copied by Muslims at all.
    Christian scribes:


    I don tknow if Anthony has proof that Christian scribes were used to copy the Quran.

    But the early Arabic papyri show that the Arabs already had their own administrative customs. The language and script which was used shows that the writing was in line with the Quranic Arabic. So there must have been a high degree of standardisation linked to institutions teaching this standardised Arabic.

    What were the Arabs before being Muslim? Christian or Jewish? or both? Who were the ones teaching in their "language schools"? Christians or Jews? Did they need "outsiders" to copy their Quran? I can imagine they did not since there is material evidence of an Arabic administration being used by the conquerors very early on (eg the 644 papyrus). So why not have a set of scribes, hand picked from the school graduates to copy hte Quran? Being used to writing Arabic must have greatly helped to do a good job. Why hire some Greek writing monks if you have Arabic writing scribes at your disposal? I guess just a handful of scribes would be enough to give the project a kick start. No need to outsource it.

    well mundi is going face many many questions on that post

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10349 - August 15, 2021, 10:36 AM

    Thread: https://twitter.com/abhistoria/status/1417471538467586058
    Quote
    Quick posts about the early Umayyad conception of prophethood. Quite early in genesis of Islam, the theories of prophethood (nubuwwah) typically received learned deliberations and elaborations in theological and philosophical milieus.

    There's decent, albeit insufficient, studies on signs and notions of nubuwwah in the medieval literature of Muslims ʿulamāʾ. What we lack is a dedicated study on how the early political elite came to view the prophethood of Muḥammad.

    Granted, the paucity of evidence makes the task arduous if not well-nigh impossible; we could, however, if we follow the model of P Crone arrive at some tentative conclusions. Let's take a quick look at Sufyanid conception of the prophet Muḥammad vis-a-vis the caliphate.

    The Sufyanid period of the Umayyad dynasty starts in 661 and ends in 684 AD.  We have a few surviving documentary evidence dating back to that narrow window of time. From what survives, the mention of Muḥammad in Sufyanid documents is conspicuously absent.

    Crone famously opined that, "in the Sufyanid period, apparently, the Prophet had no publicly acknowledged role." In other words, the figure of Muḥammad was deemed irrelevant in Umayyad political theory. The literary sources seem to concur.

    For instance, Balādhurī recalls that Muʿawiyah is reported to have said, "the earth belongs to God and I am the vicegerent of God (الارض لله وأنا خليفة الله). In another statement preserved in Ṭabarī, Muʿawiyah is said to be the deputy of God without mentions of Muḥammad.

    Similarly, al-Jāḥiẓ in his Bayān tells of notion where Muʿawiyah is regarded as 'khalifat Allāh" [not 'khalifat rasūl Allāh' as Crone showed]. In the ps.-Ibn Qutaybah, again, Muḥammad is absent in the religious and political formulations of the Umayyad, when Yazīd I speaks of Muʿawiyah, he says, "the servant whom God deputed over his servants" [استخلفه الله]. And again, in another statement preserved in the sources, the appointed of Yazīd I to the caliphate is worded in ways that omit any mention of the Prophet [خليفة الله على عباده].

    In fact, Yazīd I draws more elevated accolades than his father. Ḥamzah al-Iṣfahānī (tenth century) in his Kitāb tārīkh sinī mulūk al-arḍ recounts a letter sent by Umayyad loyalists to the Hāshimites scolding them for "disobeying the deputy of God (خليفة الله)".

    In other words, the Sufyanids conception of the religious and political authority seemed to bypass the figure of Muḥammad altogether, perhaps best evinced in the titles afforded to Yazīd I [امام المسلمين و خليفة رب العالمين].

    While the later Marwānids (as Crone argues) began to consciously conceive and identify Muḥammad as the founder and pivotal figure of the new religion, the Sufyanids did not such thing, it seems.

    Despite publicly paying homage to figure of Muḥammad, the Mawrānids did not completely abandon the caliph as deputy of God thesis instituted by the Sufyanids. A letter of al-Ḥajjāj sent to ʿAbd al-Malik [cited in the ʿIqd by the ninth century litterateur Ibn ʿAbd Rabbih], tells us that Umayyad elites were of the belief that God held his caliph on earth in higher regard than the Prophet Muḥammad [إن خليفة لله في أهله أكرم عليه من رسوله إليهم، وكذلك الخلفاء يا أمير المؤمنين أعلى منزلة من المرسلين]

    Again, in another statement al-Ḥajjāj is reputed to have said,  إن الخليفة عند الله أفضل من الملائكة المقربين والأنبياء المرسلين. The generic use of "messengers" seemed to include, not exclude, the Prophet Muḥammad. For example, the sources recount a story of al-Ḥajjāj suggesting the faithful flock to ʿAbd al-Malik rather than tomb of Muḥammad, since 'God's deputy is better than His messenger' [تبا لهم إنما يطوفون بأعواد ورمة بالية هلا طافوا بقصر أمير المؤمنين عبد الملك؟ ألا يعلمون أن خليفة المرأ خير من رسوله]

    Likewise, in a report preserved in al-Aghānī, Khālid al-Qasrī, the Umayyad governor of Mecca, stated in public gathering that God has a higher regard for the Umayyad caliph than for His prophets. These are but a few representative examples. See Crone for a fuller account.

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