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 Topic: Rescind endorsement of sex segregation at UK universities!

 (Read 24211 times)
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  • Rescind endorsement of sex segregation at UK universities!
     OP - November 23, 2013, 07:44 PM

    Hi all

    Universities UK, a governing body, has recently published guidelines for universities wherein they condone gender segregation at university premises.  This is absolutely ridiculous since it's an infringement on personal liberties, as well as a complete disregard of normal codes of conduct in public places such as universities.  See a detailed analysis of the situation below:

    http://hurryupharry.org/2013/11/23/you-are-a-woman-you-cant-sit-here-uk-universities-condones-gender-segregation/

    "‘You are a woman, you can’t sit here’: UK Universities condones gender segregation
    Guest Post, November 23rd 2013, 4:44 pm

    This is a guest post by Chris Moos

    If the new guidelines by Universities UK, an organisation representing the leadership of UK universities, are adopted, this is a phrase that might become not uncommon to hear at UK universities.

    The attempts of extreme religious speakers and organisations to impose gender segregation and the harmful effects of such policies on students have been well documented. In March, University College London banned the Islamist organisation iERA from its premises after it tried to physically impose a gender segregated seating order on the audience of an event called “Islam or Atheism: Which Makes More Sense?”.

    Now, it appears that organisations like the iERA will get their attempts to forcibly segregate men and women officially sanctioned. On November 22nd, Universities UK, which calls itself “The voice of UK Universities”, issued new guidelines on external speakers in higher education institutions. In a shocking reinterpretation of the segregationist “separate but equal” slogan of long-gone regimes, the document states that “assuming the side-by-side segregated seating arrangement is adopted, there does not appear to be any discrimination on gender grounds merely by imposing segregated seating. Both men and women are being treated equally, as they are both being segregated in the same way.” Notably, the guidelines make it clear that not only voluntary self-segregation would be permissible, but also the imposition of a seating order through forceful means, telling students where to sit, and next to whom.

    In what appears to be a deliberate misinterpretation of existing equality legislation, the organisation also claims “segregation in the context of the facts outlined above would only be discriminatory on the grounds of sex if it amounts to ‘less favourable treatment’ of either female or male attendees.” Incredibly, this posits that treating someone differently because of his or her gender, telling them that certain students cannot sit next to certain others, would not amount to discrimination. In what seems to border at the absurd, the organisation indeed says that “an act of indirect discrimination can be ‘objectively justified’ if it is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim”. According to Universities UK, forced gender segregation is thus “legitimate”.

    Of course, if differential treatment was not “less favourable” to some groups, it would not be differential – it would simply be equal. In addition, this totally ignores the sizeable part of the population that have gender identities that neither fit into the “male” or “female” category. Should these ideas be put into practice, this would mean that all students could be forced to reveal their gender identity when entering a lecture theatre, and should it be neither male nor female, forced to pick one or the other side.

    The document also provides a clear rationale for what could lead back to a new era of segregation in universities that was long thought overcome. For Universities UK, the privilege to impose highly controversial religious practices on students trumps considerations of gender equality and the basic freedom of people to sit wherever they choose, and with whom: “Concerns to accommodate the wishes or beliefs of those opposed to segregation should not result in a religious group being prevented from having a debate in accordance with its belief system.”

    While asking whether there is “scope for segregation to be voluntary/optional”, Universities UK concedes that, in general, there should be an area where genders would be allowed to mix. Yet, incredibly, Universities UK claims that, if the organisers or speakers are opposed to gender mixing, it might be against the law to allow for an area with mixed seating: “Ultimately, if imposing an unsegregated seating area in addition to the segregated areas contravenes the genuinely-held religious beliefs of the group hosting the event, or those of the speaker, the institution should be mindful to ensure that the freedom of speech of the religious group or speaker is not curtailed unlawfully.”

    In a stunning display of disregard for the rights of students, Universities UK also suggests that universities should indeed allow not only partially, but fully segregated events, should this be the wish of the speaker: “If the speaker is unwilling to speak unless the event is fully segregated, it may be necessary to further explore the basis for his position before deciding whether a partially segregated event is a possibility.”

    It is hard to imagine that a document, which proposes the infringement on the rights of students to a yet unprecedented level, would find the approval of an organisation that claims to defend the rights of students. Yet, in another shocking revelation, the guidelines apparently won approval from both lecturers’ leaders and students – with the National Union of Students saying it had been involved in detailed discussions with Universities UK about drawing up guidance. As the Independent reports, Colum McGuire, vice-president of the NUS, said: “We fully support UUK guidance and worked with them to advise on best practice in these matters. We encourage our members to follow this to assess the risk of all speakers to determine the action they should taker to protect students and keep them safe.”

    Given the failure of the NUS to protect the rights of students to choose where to sit, it is to be expected that the guidelines will meet fierce opposition from both religious and non-religious students. Yet, in what seems to be an attempt to prevent students from challenging the proposed policy, the document anticipates this, and even issues specific instructions on how to deal with those who do not want segregation: “Those opposed to segregation are entitled to engage in lawful protest against segregation, and could be encouraged to hold a separate debate of the issues, but their views do not require an institution to stifle a religious society’s segregated debate where the segregation accords with a genuinely-held religious belief.”

    The guidelines of Universities UK are a shocking display of what happens when religious privilege is allowed to trump other considerations of equality and basic human rights. As long as religious beliefs are “genuinely-held”, they will override any other principle that have come to be the egalitarian consensus on which interaction between genders is built in the UK.

    Arguably, this is not the first time that higher education institutions and governing bodies have infringed on the rights of UK students. Yet, this appears to be hitherto most elaborate attempt to legitimise the forceful imposition of highly contested religious practices on students, ironically in the guise of a defense of freedom of expression. Should these guidelines be implemented, students could be forcibly segregated at UK universities, by the very university staff whose duty it is to protect students from extremists.

    First reactions have been unequivocally dismissive of the new policy. Commenting on the case, Keith Porteous-Wood, Executive Director of the National Secular Society, said: “A commitment to Freedom of Expression does not extend to submitting to speakers imposing their own conditions which are, or should be, contrary to the values of the institution, such as the segregation of audiences, or the refusal to allow questions or challenges.”

    Women’s rights activists like Maryam Namazie have called for action: “I would also suggest that NO speaker or audience ever agree to enter a room that is segregated. We should boycott universities that accept this guidance and the speakers that agree to speak in such situations. How do you think racial apartheid ended? Not by appeasement and certainly not by institutionalising misogyny against women.”

    An open letter signed by public intellectuals and human rights activists such as A.C. Grayling, Richard Dawkins, Gita Sahgal and Polly Toynbee calls for an immediate rescindment of the guidelines. You can sign the petition here, and join the protest on December 10th."


    Maryam Namazie has also blogged about this:

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/maryamnamazie/2013/11/23/rescind-endorsement-of-sex-segregation-at-uk-universities/

    She started a petition demanding Universities UK rescind these ridiculous guidelines - please sign here: https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Universities_UK_Rescind_endorsement_of_sex_segregation_at_UK_Universities/

    ...and she has also organised a demonstration in London on 10th December 2013. Hope many will be able to attend, and if not, please do sign the petition.  Smiley

    Pariah

    'The greatest glory of living lies not in never falling but in rising everytime you fall'
  • Rescind endorsement of sex segregation at UK universities!
     Reply #1 - November 23, 2013, 07:57 PM

    Saw this in the papers yesterday. Fucking unbelievable. Though I think there was also mention of a third seating arrangement so as not to discriminate against people who believe in gender equality.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Rescind endorsement of sex segregation at UK universities!
     Reply #2 - November 24, 2013, 05:43 AM

    If you look carefully at the document, in parts they suggest that mixed seating may actually be unlawful too. Mind boggles.


    'The greatest glory of living lies not in never falling but in rising everytime you fall'
  • Rescind endorsement of sex segregation at UK universities!
     Reply #3 - November 24, 2013, 05:58 AM

    Can you point it out please?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Rescind endorsement of sex segregation at UK universities!
     Reply #4 - November 24, 2013, 05:58 AM

    the Islamist organisation iERA from its premises after it tried to physically impose a gender segregated seating order on the audience of an event called “Islam or Atheism: Which Makes More Sense?”.

     Cheesy

    Unbelievable. Let the pigs fly people!  finmad

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Rescind endorsement of sex segregation at UK universities!
     Reply #5 - November 24, 2013, 06:10 AM

    There was a muslim woman at the end who blasted Krauss for threatening to walk out when it was enforced. That was what was latched on to, not the number of non muslims who spoke about how degraded and intimidated they felt and how glad they were Krauss stood up for them.

    This is the debate if you're interested, though be warned it's the official iERAuk channel. I've seen them edit things before to cast an opponent in bad light.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSwJuOPG4FI

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Rescind endorsement of sex segregation at UK universities!
     Reply #6 - November 24, 2013, 09:09 AM

    Thanks for sharing this Pariah! Signed!

  • Rescind endorsement of sex segregation at UK universities!
     Reply #7 - November 24, 2013, 09:14 AM

    Next they will just explain that women are not welcome at lectures.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Rescind endorsement of sex segregation at UK universities!
     Reply #8 - November 24, 2013, 11:55 AM

    Can you point it out please?


    From the article check this bit:

    "While asking whether there is “scope for segregation to be voluntary/optional”, Universities UK concedes that, in general, there should be an area where genders would be allowed to mix. Yet, incredibly, Universities UK claims that, if the organisers or speakers are opposed to gender mixing, it might be against the law to allow for an area with mixed seating: “Ultimately, if imposing an unsegregated seating area in addition to the segregated areas contravenes the genuinely-held religious beliefs of the group hosting the event, or those of the speaker, the institution should be mindful to ensure that the freedom of speech of the religious group or speaker is not curtailed unlawfully.”

    In a stunning display of disregard for the rights of students, Universities UK also suggests that universities should indeed allow not only partially, but fully segregated events, should this be the wish of the speaker: “If the speaker is unwilling to speak unless the event is fully segregated, it may be necessary to further explore the basis for his position before deciding whether a partially segregated event is a possibility.”

    Link to the actual document: http://www.universitiesuk.ac.uk/highereducation/Pages/Externalspeakersinhighereducationinstitutions.aspx#.UpIu6RA8r81

    Thanks to those who have signed! Hopefully some will be able to join the protest? I'll be going and if you would like to meet drop me a message.

    Pariah

    'The greatest glory of living lies not in never falling but in rising everytime you fall'
  • Rescind endorsement of sex segregation at UK universities!
     Reply #9 - November 24, 2013, 12:03 PM

    Guys, this has pissed me off to no end.

    How effective is this organisation 'Universities UK'?

    Do you want to create a ptetition on change.org? End segregation on ALL grounds and that no ideology should be priviliged above universal human rights.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Rescind endorsement of sex segregation at UK universities!
     Reply #10 - November 24, 2013, 04:02 PM

    Just signed.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Rescind endorsement of sex segregation at UK universities!
     Reply #11 - November 24, 2013, 04:57 PM

    Where's the petition? Can you post a link?

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Rescind endorsement of sex segregation at UK universities!
     Reply #12 - November 24, 2013, 05:09 PM

    https://secure.avaaz.org/en/petition/Universities_UK_Rescind_endorsement_of_sex_segregation_at_UK_Universities/

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Rescind endorsement of sex segregation at UK universities!
     Reply #13 - November 24, 2013, 05:17 PM

    Signed.

    A change.org petition is far more common and gains a wider audience no?

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Rescind endorsement of sex segregation at UK universities!
     Reply #14 - November 24, 2013, 05:18 PM

    Couldn't say. Did you read happymurtad's latest blog?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Rescind endorsement of sex segregation at UK universities!
     Reply #15 - November 24, 2013, 05:24 PM

    Nope is it about that?

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Rescind endorsement of sex segregation at UK universities!
     Reply #16 - November 24, 2013, 05:27 PM

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=25114.msg719880#msg719880

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Rescind endorsement of sex segregation at UK universities!
     Reply #17 - November 24, 2013, 05:35 PM

    Found it. I created one on blogspot.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Rescind endorsement of sex segregation at UK universities!
     Reply #18 - November 24, 2013, 05:36 PM

    Ohh, got any posts?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Rescind endorsement of sex segregation at UK universities!
     Reply #19 - November 24, 2013, 08:36 PM

    I second the request for blog.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Rescind endorsement of sex segregation at UK universities!
     Reply #20 - November 25, 2013, 10:31 PM

    Quote
    UK University debates, when gender segregation is OK?

    Get real UK Universities

    Universities UK have issued some guidance on separating genders during debate,* apparently it is OK if the facilities are separate but equal. Women can be placed separately from men as long as they aren’t seated behind. Because in some sort of alternate reality this is perfectly acceptable equality. Separate but equal.
     And where have we heard that nonsense before?

    (Clicky for piccy!)

    Life is complicated. To segregate or not to segregate based gender, race, creed, colour, sexual orientation, or whatever discriminatory category you choose to pick is not, however, a complex issue. In fact it is pretty straightforward if you are a public body in a democratic society, you don’t do it.

    Apparently this is quite a difficult concept for Universities UK, who have magically transported themselves back to mentality of lawmakers in the US South in the 1870s. They have also managed to forget the landmark case of Brown vs. Board of Education where the US Supreme Court deemed that “separate educational facilities are inherently unequal.” (the UK never had such policies).

    According to the illustrious UK university leaders, however, this is a really difficult issue  viz



    Segregation at the behest of a controversial speaker is an issue which arises “all the time” and banning men and women from sitting next to each during debates is a “big issue” facing universities, Universities UK has said.



    How on earth can this possibly be a ‘big issue’ ? If the speaker requests that genders (or whoever) should be separated, the answer should be a polite, respectable, PR-compliant form of ‘tough shit’. This is not a hard issue. You don’t do it. Full stop. End of. And please don’t try to couch it as some sort of difficult, soul-searching issue. It isn’t. Segregation is not acceptable, don’t do it.

    I ask the leaders of Universities UK, what kind of message does this send? Universities should be the place where ideas are discussed, equality is striven for, openness and debate are applauded, exemplifying the epitome of a free society. Granted this is the ideal, but any University policy should uphold this ideal. You can’t just change your policy because someone *important* requests it. By this guidance, Universities UK give the message that discrimination is OK, if you are famous/important that is, otherwise Universities really should be against this sort of thing.

    I was an undergraduate at the University of Tennessee (USA). During my time there, every Summer the university was ‘rented’ as a convention venue by one of the very-conservative-religious groups from somewhere in Tennessee. They paid a fair amount of money to use the place. One summer, this convention happened to coincide with the university art-school exhibit of nudes, which was displayed prominently in the student center. The head of the very-conservative-religious group went to the President of the university to complain and have the art removed. The President said, in a decision that surprised all of us who were convinced the Uni was just money hungry, NO. In no uncertain terms, no.

    If you ask me, the ‘leaders’ of Universities UK might just learn a thing or two from old Joseph E. Johnson, who knew how to draw the line between the requests of the few vs. the rights of many. No matter how rich, important or controversial they may be.


    http://occamstypewriter.org/sylviamclain/2013/11/24/uk-university-debates-when-gender-segregation-ok/

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Rescind endorsement of sex segregation at UK universities!
     Reply #21 - November 26, 2013, 01:24 AM

     Cheesy @ occamstypewriter. Great name for a blog.

    Oh and the message there is right on target too.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Rescind endorsement of sex segregation at UK universities!
     Reply #22 - November 26, 2013, 07:34 AM

    What's an apology? Someone really ought to tell these guys:

    http://blog.universitiesuk.ac.uk/2013/11/25/external-speakers-guidance-segregation/

  • Rescind endorsement of sex segregation at UK universities!
     Reply #23 - November 26, 2013, 07:45 AM

    Might be the worst "apology" ever.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Rescind endorsement of sex segregation at UK universities!
     Reply #24 - November 26, 2013, 09:38 AM

    It's not addressed in the article, but what if the speaker moves? The assumption of equality is based on both genders having equal access, but if the speaker moves to the left or right or to one side of the audience or another then is that gender is receiving preferential treatment?

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Rescind endorsement of sex segregation at UK universities!
     Reply #25 - November 26, 2013, 12:16 PM

    Where do all the transgender people go?

    Where do hemephrodites sit?

    How about children who are attending the event? What is the cut off age before gender segregation kicks in?

    Will there be a security check-in system installed in order to verify that all those wearing burkhas are in fact women?

    What is the penalty if one transgresses the invisible boundary? Will I be pepper sprayed, hosed down and be intimidated by a German Shephard getting all in my face?

    I've noticed that women in general have better toilet facilities. I want this inequality to be addressed and the situation rectified immediately.

    Will there be a seat inspector that will inspect all the seats in order to ensure that both the male and female seats are equally comfortable or uncomfortable?

    According to the legal principles if the men clap louder than the women does that violate any of the terms of agreement?

    If gender segregation is implemented to impede promiscuity, where do gay and lesbians sit who may, like their heterosexual counterparts, be turned on?

    Whan attending a gender segregated event will I have to opt out of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights?

    That's it people. Thanks for getting me started deusvult.










    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Rescind endorsement of sex segregation at UK universities!
     Reply #26 - November 26, 2013, 01:55 PM

    I don't see a problem with segregating an audience on gender lines if permission has been given beforehand.

    students can always vote with their feet if they disagree.
  • Rescind endorsement of sex segregation at UK universities!
     Reply #27 - November 26, 2013, 02:01 PM

    By that logic so can people who wish to impose gender segregation.

    Congratulations to Universities UK for attempting to throw out hard fought for equality legislation/social consciousness out the window.

    Oh, and soneguy you haven't answered any of the questions above. Try and have a go. I'm being serious (as always)

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Rescind endorsement of sex segregation at UK universities!
     Reply #28 - November 26, 2013, 02:14 PM

    These days Pariah only posts on this forum about 5 times a year, but each one of those posts is fucking gold. parrot

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Rescind endorsement of sex segregation at UK universities!
     Reply #29 - November 26, 2013, 02:42 PM

    By that logic so can people who wish to impose gender segregation.

    Congratulations to Universities UK for attempting to throw out hard fought for equality legislation/social consciousness out the window.


    whilst you want to impose gender mixing? if any two females are sitting together, you'll be there to intervene between then?

    people can make up their own minds if they want to attend such a meeting and observe the etiquette that's been requested - without others being outraged on their behalf.
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