Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Qur'anic studies today
Today at 03:18 PM

Kashmir endgame
Today at 02:01 PM

Female role models
Today at 01:01 PM

Scientists and .............
August 22, 2019, 07:27 PM

Zakir Naik..Islamic Hero ...
August 22, 2019, 07:04 PM

NayaPakistan...New Pakist...
August 21, 2019, 07:01 PM

مدهش----- لماذا؟؟؟؟
by akay
August 18, 2019, 09:34 PM

The Battle for British Is...
August 18, 2019, 10:04 AM

hindus in India beat A M...
August 17, 2019, 01:23 PM

What music are you listen...
August 15, 2019, 09:05 PM

Human Rights and Wrongs
August 14, 2019, 04:47 PM

New PM incoming
August 13, 2019, 07:27 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"

 (Read 20552 times)
  • Previous page 1 2 34 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #60 - August 14, 2011, 10:28 PM

    Also, I actually didn't scrutinise hadith when I researched islam- in fact I made sure to ascertain the validity of islam by looking at the quran.


    You know I had to stop reading the Quran without Tafsir, because every time I would read translation my iman would get weaker because I found what I was reading so abhorrent. Like God ordering Abraham to kill his son, God ordering the Israelites to kill themselves because they worshipped a golden calf, and the Prophet Yusuf playing an inane prank on his brothers in order to expose their true thoughts about him. And the repeated threats of God mercilessly torturing people who displease him.  

    I convinced myself that my lack of knowledge and nafs were the reason why I found the Quran so abhorrent, and so I had a period where I only would listen to muslim scholars because they quote the Quran and gave a Tafsir.
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #61 - August 14, 2011, 10:42 PM

    Saffire,

    Note how you dodge my question and state no evidence whatsoever for the claims you made, e.g. "all hadith were written around 100yrs after Muhammad's death".



    I'm sick of these stupid comments from muslims (not just you)- If you want evidence then go find it yourself! Why should I do the work? I did my research and found my answers, clearly you're still searching since you don't know about this! It's common knowledge how the history of islam was passed down orally for over a hundred years after muhammeds death. If you are so learned on islam you should know this, that you don't highlights the severe lack in your knowledge of the religion you are trying to teach US about!  Cheesy

    You muslims who argue your religion is fact constantly throw this comment 'evidence' You deman rock solid evidence yet expect us to accept your flimsy assertions! It's so foolish. You want evidence of what? Of how muslims interpret quran in so many different ways each contradictory? This is a well known fact and the very evidence you request is in your own statements making assertions to ignore hadit. Muslims follow hadith, muslims follow different hadiths, different imaams, different schools of thought, etc. If you require evidence of this it's as stupid as asking me to give you evidence that the sun provides light!

    As for the rest, read the quran since you CLEARLY have not or you would know where there is 'evidence' of slavery in the quran and sex with slaves (rape!)

    Qur'an (33:50) - "O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those (slaves) whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee"

    Qur'an (23:5-6) - "..who abstain from sex, except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess..."  

    Qur'an (4:24) - "And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess."

    Evidence that islam regards women as intellectually inferior and under the care of men (men are boss)

    Quran 2:228 . . . Wives have the same rights as the husbands have on them in accordance with the generally known principles. Of course, men are a degree above them in status . . . (Sayyid Abul A’La Maududi, the Meaning of the Qur’an, vol. 1, p. 165)
    Quran 4:34... Men are managers of the affairs of women because Allah has made the one superior to the other. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 329)
    Quran 4:11 ... The share of the male shall be twice that of a female . . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 311) (See Sura 4:176.)
    Quran 2:282 ... And let two men from among you bear witness to all such documents [contracts of loans without interest]. But if two men be not available, there should be one man and two women to bear witness so that if one of the women forgets (anything), the other may remind her. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 205).

    Evidence that in the quran it says women have no right to refuse sex and must provide it instantly upon request:

    Qur'an (2:223) - "Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will..."

    Or perhaps you want evidence of the scientific errors in the quran:

    Q. 2:22... WHO made the earth a bed for you, and the heaven a roof, and caused water to come down from the clouds and therewith brought forth fruits for your sustenance; so do not set up equals to ALLAH, while you know. Sher Ali
    i.e the earth is flat

    "It is Allah Who has created seven heavens, and earths as many ..." S. 65:12, F. Malik's translation

    Quran 13:3... And He it is Who spread out the earth and placed therein firm hills and flowing streams, and of all fruits He placed therein two spouses (male and female). He covereth the night with the day. Lo! herein verily are portents for people who take thought. (Pickthall)
    This is again a fallacy- neither all organisms nor all fruits are paired!

    In addition: talking animals (the donkey, the ants to Solomon), Muhammed's winged horse, a parrallel invislible world of Jinn, Giants, and other rediculous tales!  Cheesy

    I can't be asked going on, although I could, since ignorant people will ignore the facts and believe what makes them feel good. That's up to you but don't try pulling others into your insanity. The quran is a book that is made up of ideas of a man/a group of men to improve the society. This man/men used the idea that they were god's words to force people to follow. On numerous occasions the quran demands belief, demands worship, demands that it is true, threatens those who disbelief- makes god come accross rather desperate tbh!

    The writer(s) used knowledge of other nations, namely the neighbouring 'enlightened' civilisations of the greeks and egyptians. It's laughable how muslims assert the truth of islam using these 'proofs' of science when they are in fact stolen from the pagans so in fact the muslims are arguing that since these people knew these things then their deities must have been real!  Afro
    If one is to assume Muhammed wrote the quran (by proxy) then muslims are in awe that this must be divine since he was illiterate- first there is no evidence of this, but let's assume that it's true. Homer was illiterate too and he wrote some of the greatest literature known to man (Homer was blind therefore illiterate). In addition, the 'knowledge' in the quran is not in depth or scientific at all, rather a vague rambling of overheard things, much the same as what a thick person of today could tell you of gravity, or the universe, etc. Also, illiterate doesn't mean thick- there is no doubt muhammed was smart, he created this book using fear, manipulation, stolen knowledge from Greeks/Egyptians and convinced people to follow. I don't believe this was to be evil, it seems he did it for the betterment of his people. However, to assert that the ideas of a man 1400 yrs ago are to be adhered to for the betterment of all people for all time are perposterous and arcane! Even Hitler had some good ideas, doesn't mean they're all great as we know!  Cheesy
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #62 - August 14, 2011, 11:09 PM

     clap

    Quote
    If one is to assume Muhammed wrote the quran (by proxy) then muslims are in awe that this must be divine since he was illiterate- first there is no evidence of this, but let's assume that it's true.


    Most of the population was illiterate before the invention of the printing press in the 15th century.

    But the Rationalizer has done an excellent video debunking that argument...

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLFl8pi-W4k
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #63 - August 15, 2011, 02:33 PM

    strangestdude,

    Actually, I did read her post. Its simply a regurgitation of what is commonly said, with little to no research/evidence.

    Some of the questions you asked, I have previously answered. Please see my past posts, e.g. my intro post.

    There were some new questions however:

    Quote
    A very small fraction of the human population know 7th century Arabic to the point that they can converse in it, do you? How can that fit the criteria of a universal message for mankind?


    IF you have read Quran, you will know, it itself does not regard language as a barrier [41:44]. So the obvious question becomes why the heck does it say that?! Because its in Arabic so people must at least know Arabic to get what Quran says. Well, you would think that, but actually, Quran promotes basic universal principles, and accepts all monotheist faiths, good deeds etc. Having knowledge of Arabic is irrelevant for this. Read this:

    http://www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/more.htm

    I know a little Arabic, but I'm not conversant. The Classical Arabic of Quran, its grammar etc is documented in many books.

    Quote
    In terms of 'holy books' open to interpretation I prefer the Bhagavad Gita to the Quran, have you read it?


    Only parts.

    What am I? Deist / Quranist <--- Click links to Find Out More
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #64 - August 15, 2011, 02:38 PM

    Saffire,

    Thanks for once again showing everyone you cannot substantiate your claims. FACT.

    Much of what you said, are simply a regurgitation of what is commonly said, with little or no research/evidence.

    If you wish, I am willing to debate you (and anyone who thinks like you) in this section:
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?board=32.0

    I assume that's what the section is for. All you do is bring your strongest 5 anti-Quran arguments.

    Maybe others can join in. I will make a thread about it.

    What am I? Deist / Quranist <--- Click links to Find Out More
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #65 - August 15, 2011, 03:03 PM

    crazyislam,

    Thanks for demonstrating you are disingenuous.

    And thanks for demonstrating that scholars say one thing for one verse and another for another verse, i.e. contradiction.

    One might even say, far from being unambiguous, Quran exposes such people by forcing them to contradict themselves.

    If you, or anyone, wants to follow contradicting opinions, feel free.


    Oh now I am disingenuous?
    This is how the argument went:
    Me: Doesn't the Quran permit sex with premenstrual girls?
    You: No, (gives me a link)
    Me: That means the Quran could have been clearer correct?
    You: Possibly
    Me: Doesn't Quran claim to be perfect and divine?
    You: The word perfect is subjective (and you accuse me of being disengenuous, right?)
    Me: Quotes Asad's translation which says it to be "clear" - as you preferred Asad earlier.

    PS: I couldn't yet find a Tafsir that doesn't agree with me on that interpretation re: the verse of having sex with premenachial girls.
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #66 - August 15, 2011, 03:16 PM

    Because its in Arabic so people must at least know Arabic to get what Quran says. Well, you would think that, but actually, Quran promotes basic universal principles, and accepts all monotheist faiths, good deeds etc. Having knowledge of Arabic is irrelevant for this.


    Will you post a link to your previous responses rather than sending me to look for them please?

    So your saying it doesn't matter if anyone agrees with the Quran so long as they are good people and are monotheists?

    So according to your interpretation of the Quran what happens to people who aren't 'good' or monotheists?
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #67 - August 15, 2011, 04:00 PM

    strangest,

    Intro: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16078.0


    Quote
    So your saying it doesn't matter if anyone agrees with the Quran so long as they are good people and are monotheists?


    EXACTLY. That is what Quran implies.


    Quote
    So according to your interpretation of the Quran what happens to people who aren't 'good' or monotheists?


    Get what you give. You do bad, you receive bad etc.

    What am I? Deist / Quranist <--- Click links to Find Out More
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #68 - August 15, 2011, 05:48 PM

    You suggest bad things happen to bad people? This may be true as 'bad' can include internal turmoil. However, not believing in God is not 'bad' so how is this relevant? In addition- who decides what is bad? In the time of Muhammed polygeny was the norm, in this day and age, in this society (UK) it is considered bad. In them days sex with children was acceptable, marriage of children was also, now the age of consent is 16 so anything below is 'bad'- tomorrow the age of consent may be 13 or may be 18 so what is bad?

    Your simplified comment shows your ignorance- the very essence of a religion is that it is an entire system- NOT just the message to 'be good' (an ambiguous suggestion!) or to believe in god! Islam is a set of doctrines that categorises what is good and what is not good so to be 'good' according to a muslim is to follow the 'good' as described by the quran. This is based on the assumption that the quran is from god. The contention is that the book is NOT from god and is in fact written by a man/men and in this regard the aspects deemed 'good' are not universal and timeless truths but rather the exact same thing as what any society might produce- a set of doctrines that are not set in stone but alter as human beings advance!

    The argument in essence is that quran is not from god since it is a foolish assertion given the ambiguity of the book. Further, your comments re the language are nonsensical- to say that knowing 7th C arabic is not relevant when the quran is held as the ultimate ruling on all morality is perposterous! That's as stupid as me saying from now on all people must be naked then saying that the reasons are in this magical book from god that only I understand and therefore you must follow!

    Finally- to believe in god- what is the 'good' in that? How is belief in a god or gods relevant? Are you suggesting that to believe in god is automatically going to create 'goodness'? That to not believe in god automatically creates 'badness'?  Cheesy
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #69 - August 16, 2011, 01:07 AM

    I assume that's what the section is for. All you do is bring your strongest 5 anti-Quran arguments.


    Just curious, but why the number 5? I would think that even 1 successfully proven argument against the Quran would be enough to show that it is not the word of god.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #70 - August 17, 2011, 09:24 AM

    Get what you give. You do bad, you receive bad etc.

    implying that not being a monotheist = bad
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #71 - August 17, 2011, 07:07 PM

    Saffire, see the challenge thread.
    By the way, in case you wonder why I'm not responding to your posts, it is because you never conceded that your hadith written within 100yrs claim was baseless. Thus, if you're not going to concede something so basic, there is no point in discussing other stuff with you. I'm here to learn, I dont know about you.


    Kenan,
    Simply saying one is "monotheist" is almost irrelevant in my view. Actions confirm beliefs. Monotheist has a close association with oneness amongst all things, and that radiates out to pretty much everything you do. One with people, nature etc. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" etc. See here for example:

    http://www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/more.htm


    What am I? Deist / Quranist <--- Click links to Find Out More
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #72 - August 17, 2011, 07:10 PM

    Just curious, but why the number 5? I would think that even 1 successfully proven argument against the Quran would be enough to show that it is not the word of god.


    I agree. But in terms of educational discussion, learning etc. 5 seems not too low, not too high. I was going to say 10, but that seemed a little too much.

    Feel free to list your 5 on that thread.

    What am I? Deist / Quranist <--- Click links to Find Out More
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #73 - August 17, 2011, 07:57 PM

    Simply saying one is "monotheist" is almost irrelevant in my view. Actions confirm beliefs. Monotheist has a close association with oneness amongst all things, and that radiates out to pretty much everything you do. One with people, nature etc. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" etc. See here for example:


    So a compassionate person, who appreciates nature is a monotheist, even if they state that they are an atheist?

    Do you believe in hell?
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #74 - August 17, 2011, 09:08 PM

    Saffire, see the challenge thread.
    By the way, in case you wonder why I'm not responding to your posts, it is because you never conceded that your hadith written within 100yrs claim was baseless. Thus, if you're not going to concede something so basic, there is no point in discussing other stuff with you. I'm here to learn, I dont know about you.


    I haven't communicated with you in fact since you have the limited thinking and illogical rationalising of a person desperate to prove islam is from god. It's a waste of my time to be honest. The fact you want me to concede the fact about the hadith clearly shows your ignorance and desperation. It seems evident that you are seeking answers so why don't you go and find hadith written within muhammed's time or shortly after his death, i.e. less than 100 years? Like I said before, I have my answer so refuse to waste my time discussing with individuals who fail to grasp the concept of 'open mind' 'logic' and 'rationality'
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #75 - August 19, 2011, 07:52 PM

    So a compassionate person, who appreciates nature is a monotheist, even if they state that they are an atheist?


    Saying one has belief X is fine in itself, but actions confirm beliefs, always have, always will. I'm sure we have all experienced people who say one thing then do another, then people often say "actions speak louder than words" or when they do something they say "you've shown your true colours" etc.

    Most people do not know that there is a difference in Quran between a muslim and a mumin. This has been discussed and debated amongst Islamic scholars quite a bit.

    The person you describe is more aptly a muslim not a mumin, as per various "Quranist" thinkers.

    What am I? Deist / Quranist <--- Click links to Find Out More
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #76 - August 19, 2011, 08:02 PM

    So according to you a professed athiest is a muslim, as long as they are a nice person.

    OK thanks for answering that question will you answer the following... 

    Do you believe in hell?

    What evidence do you have that a deity exists?
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #77 - August 27, 2011, 10:59 PM

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Didn't it say she was playing with dolls with Muhammad met her, and thus picked her out to be his wife. Despite when he made the marriage official or not, it's still sick to think he had his eye on her before hand. >_>;
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Muslims will keep refusing that fact, why ? just because it doesn't fit the 21th century and they want to move on with their believes.
    how sad  :(
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #78 - September 01, 2011, 09:14 PM

    Do you believe in hell?

    What evidence do you have that a deity exists?


    I believe if god exists, there would be a system of requital, and yes, that would mean "hell" exists.


    Reason, life experience, contemplation. This cannot be proven or disproven.

    What am I? Deist / Quranist <--- Click links to Find Out More
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #79 - September 01, 2011, 09:16 PM

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Didn't it say she was playing with dolls with Muhammad met her, and thus picked her out to be his wife. Despite when he made the marriage official or not, it's still sick to think he had his eye on her before hand. >_>;
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Muslims will keep refusing that fact, why ? just because it doesn't fit the 21th century and they want to move on with their believes.
    how sad  :(


    If you had bothered to read what I wrote you would see you are simply repeating the same rubbish.
    Quran says one thing, tradition says another.
    So, yeh, if you believe in tradition or give more weighting to tradition, sure you can claim she was a certain age (although there are contradictions/variance in tradition). That's up to you.

    What am I? Deist / Quranist <--- Click links to Find Out More
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #80 - September 01, 2011, 09:29 PM

    I don't think the argument that the Quran saying one thing vs the Hadith has any strength here. The argument depends on general divine law from the Quran being applicable to Muhammad. And this is proven false by another aspect of Muhammad's marriage practices, namely the taking of more than 4 wives.

    Muhammad's actions seems to be outside the scope of Quranic morality, therefore it wouldn't be contradictory to the Quran if he married a 6 year old girl even if this is against Quranic injunction.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #81 - September 12, 2011, 05:38 PM

    It seems you are missing the point. Quran says one thing, Hadith says another.......... thus people seize on this and say "look, Muhammad had sex with a 9yr old!"......

    ....and ignore the variance in Traditional Hadith, and more importantly, ignore the Quran.


    The Quran says nothing about the age of Aisha upon marriage. The Hadith is the only classical Islamic source to that information, and the Hadith clearly states that the Nikah occured at the age of 6 and it was consummated at the age of 9.

    Why are you portraying your argument as if the Quran actually contradicted the Hadith on Aishas matureness, when in fact the Quran is exclusively indifferent to her age?

    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #82 - October 24, 2011, 04:34 PM

    I gotta say, although this is one of the most common things used to attack Islam with I always say you have to consider what was the norm back then.

    Was this the norm or not? I don't really know but I am thinking yes.


    Well, in Islam you are not supposed to copy the Kuffar. So this excuse by the scholars is full of crap, just like most things they preach about.
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #83 - October 27, 2011, 09:54 AM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEwmfIgSQQU

    Great .. Now a 50 to 80 year old men can go and marry/sleep with 9 tear olds...

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #84 - October 27, 2011, 02:15 PM

    Saffire, see the challenge thread.


    Kenan,
    Simply saying one is "monotheist" is almost irrelevant in my view. Actions confirm beliefs. Monotheist has a close association with oneness amongst all things, and that radiates out to pretty much everything you do. One with people, nature etc. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" etc. See here for example:

    http://www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/more.htm




    Actions confirm beliefs?  REALLY!  I am an atheist and still practice
    the golden rule that Jesus instructed.  Do you also practice the
    teachings of Jesus Christ?

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #85 - October 27, 2011, 07:27 PM

    ^^erm the ethical golden rule was around long before the new testament
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #86 - October 29, 2011, 06:27 AM

    That's only one part of the teachings of JC.
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #87 - November 09, 2011, 08:03 AM

    Hi everyone Iam new ere  Smiley
    I think as far i read it, it was a commandment for the Prophet to get married to her....now am really confused, cause i did'nt come across any article saying it was his free will...any links anyone??
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #88 - November 09, 2011, 11:17 AM

    Hi everyone Iam new ere  Smiley
    I think as far i read it, it was a commandment for the Prophet to get married to her....now am really confused, cause i did'nt come across any article saying it was his free will...any links anyone??



    http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Aisha#Aisha.27s_Age_at_Consummation_and_Marriage

    "Narrated 'Aisha: Allah's Apostle said to me, "You were shown to me twice (in my dream) before I married you. I saw an angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said to him, 'Uncover (her),' and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.' Then you were shown to me, the angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said (to him), 'Uncover (her), and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.' "
    Sahih Bukhari 9:87:140"

    SOunds like he had a wet dream, and used his God given position to do what ever he fellt like.
  • Re: "Aisha was NOT 9 when she got married"
     Reply #89 - November 09, 2011, 11:35 AM

    Hi everyone Iam new ere  Smiley
    I think as far i read it, it was a commandment for the Prophet to get married to her....now am really confused, cause i did'nt come across any article saying it was his free will...any links anyone??


    where did you read  that?? did you see that in Quran  searchin_truth?

    if it is not in Quran it didn't happen..  Quran only Muslim

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Previous page 1 2 34 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »