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 Topic: Who's Dr. Shark

 (Read 16000 times)
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  • Re: Who's Dr. Shark
     Reply #90 - June 26, 2010, 06:45 AM

    Grin the question got to you didn't it Dr. Shark Smiley
  • Re: Who's Dr. Shark
     Reply #91 - June 26, 2010, 06:51 AM

    The Rationalizer;
    Unfortunately the human mind is limited, yes it has and endless power of learning and imagination, yet it's still limited because of the human nature of the mind. There are questions one will never find the answere to:


    Your argument in summary is this

    1: There must be a God
    For the sake of argument let's say I agree.

    2: Therefore it must be Allah, and Hell must exist, and because it's all complicated I just don't understand it.

    Please understand that I am not trying to convince you that God does not exist, I am trying to show you that YOUR god does not exist.  So, putting aside the argument for deism please address my original question.

    Your answer surely is not "My son will be tormented in agony for an infinite amount of time and some how God will make me happy and I will still think he's a really lovely god", or is it?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Who's Dr. Shark
     Reply #92 - June 26, 2010, 07:41 AM

    Now back to the issue of my son and the thought of him going to hell fire (may God forbid!) if he dies as a non-muslim and how I would feel about that:

    I believe that the creator of this universe with the obvious perfection has to be just in order to do all that, in addition ot having the right to do whatever He wants with his creatures since he created them all (although he's much more merciful than whatever we think of Him).
    Suppose I live in a country with my family and the law says that who takes away an innocent life, his/her life be taken away in return, and the law is so clear about this and my son/daughter knows this very well. Yet my son/daughter commits a crime and kills innocent guy and his/her life gets taken away (may God forbid), how will I feel???

    I think I will not be able to stop loving him/her to the bone and will feel extreemly sad for losing him/her, that's for one. Second; no matter how sad and upset I may get, I can't object on the taking of his/her life away since the law is so clear about that and since he/she new the law well. How can I say that this is injustice?Huh?

    I don't think we should abandon logic completely! On the other hand, I truely believe there is a certain limit to our human brains, and that's where God's knowledge goes beyond. (to be continued....)
  • Re: Who's Dr. Shark
     Reply #93 - June 26, 2010, 07:47 AM

    Hey Rationalizer, I'm just trying to "Rationalize" the atmosphere man Wink (form some stupid reason I can't insert icons with my replies:)

    Any ways, I know I'm not participating in the forum as frequent as some of you are! Sorry, but I'm quite busy with kids, work, social and hobby stuff. However, if I don't get back to you in time, don't think I'm ignoring or not interested, it's just being busy man.

    Cheers
  • Re: Who's Dr. Shark
     Reply #94 - June 26, 2010, 07:53 AM

    Guys, no one on earth can convince me that different materials (including steel, silica, etc...) can gather in a perfect way, yet by chance, to form a nice hand watch that you may find on the street to explain to you how it came to be there? If you find a knife with blood on it in a crime see, can you say it was by chance that some iron and plastics gathered (by chance) to form a knife, and some iron and proteins from elsewhere, gathered (again by chance) to form blood cells and blood and (again by chance) came on the knife, and both (again by chance) happened to be a crime seen? The logic if the first example would say a big NO, the hand watch must have been "manufactured" by an excellent company or designer who knows the ins and outs of this watch.

    This is a common argument, its called the Boeing 747 gambit i.e. can a wind randomly blow together the components parts of a Boeing 747 in an instant to make the perfect 747 aeroplane?

    It is of course imo a fallacious argument because the watch/747 did not take billions of years to make and was not put together by a random occurrence. 

    Evolution on the other hand is selectively guided from the very first moment a protein replicates and takes billions of years.
     
    Get a bag of marbles, and randomly pick one out of the bag and selectively throw away any colour or shape you dont like.  Guess what, at the end you will have a bag of your favourite marbles.  grin12

    Evolution works and is proven.  Read up on nature and the variance in nature today e.g. the hummingbirds long thin beak, specially developed for taking nectar from long long thin flowers.  Simply put, those that did not mutate this advantage died, those that didnt successfully reproduced


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  • Re: Who's Dr. Shark
     Reply #95 - June 26, 2010, 08:10 AM

    I believe that the creator of this universe with the obvious perfection has to be just in order to do all that, in addition ot having the right to do whatever He wants with his creatures since he created them all.


    If your wife tied your son up in the basement and tortured him mercilessly for the next 20 years, when you later found out about it would you still love her?  After all she surely has the right to do whatever she wants to him, she created him after all.  Put aside what the Quran says about this act and think of it purely objectively, does the creator of a life have the right not only to end it but also to torture it?

    although he's much more merciful than whatever we think of Him


    That's wrong, he is not as merciful as I am.  I abhor murder but I accept that it would be possible to drive me to a point where I might actually kill someone.  However there is nothing that anyone could ever do which could make me burn them in fire for eternity.  Remember that eternity never ends, even 5 billion years is zero compared to eternity.  I wouldn't burn Mao Zedong (killed millions of people) for eternity.  If someone killed every life in the universe I would not burn them for eternity.  There is NOTHING anyone could ever do which would make me sentence them to that.

    Therefore I am more merciful than your idea of God, am I not? I can forgive everything whereas God cannot.


    Suppose I live in a country with my family and the law says that who takes away an innocent life, his/her life be taken away in return, and the law is so clear about this and my son/daughter knows this very well. Yet my son/daughter commits a crime and kills innocent guy and his/her life gets taken away (may God forbid), how will I feel???


    Very sad indeed, as would I.  However death is not the same as your flesh repeatedly being burned off and replaced only to be burned off again for all eternity.  Do you really think you could love the being that did that to your beloved son?

    How can I say that this is injustice?Huh?


    Avoiding the subject of the death penalty..... Smiley  How is an infinite experience of burning in fire justice for anything? Name me the most terrible act you can possibly imagine and I will bet that you don't think the punishment should be eternity in fire.

    I don't think we should abandon logic completely! On the other hand, I truely believe there is a certain limit to our human brains, and that's where God's knowledge goes beyond. (to be continued....)


    Your argument goes like this:
    I don't understand where atoms came from, therefore it is okay for their creator to burn my children in fire.  I don't understand it, but it's more clever than I am so it must be okay.  If you discovered that God created aliens and then those aliens created Earth + all life on the Earth would you think "They created us, therefore it's okay for them to come and burn the entire planet clean of all life", or is that disgusting privilege reserved only for your all loving god?

    If there is a god I would be more inclined to believe "It only does things because they are moral" rather than "Things are moral because God does them".

    Tell me, when your soul is in heaven loving the being that is burning your son in fire for all eternity, do you think that soul will be a true representation of you, or some incomplete imitation which must be significantly modified in order for you to accept the situation as it is?


    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Who's Dr. Shark
     Reply #96 - June 26, 2010, 08:21 AM

    -Where were you before came to be?

    It's like saying: where was that plant or animal before it came to be?  or even: where was that stone before it came to be?
    The atoms that make up our bodies are constantly being recycled into other elements.  When we were in our mother's wombs, the food our mother was eating was being digested and helped build our bodies. Smiley

    Quote
    -What's the limit to the universe? -If there is a limit, what's beyond that limit?

    -If the atom is made of electrons, protons and neutrons; then what are these tiny particles made of? If they're made of something, what's that "something" made of?

    Science is working on this, and it is not following some 7th century holy book. Wink
    Science teaches us not to make dogmatic, unsubstantiated statements, and reserve judgement until we have the scientific evidence either way.  Religion on the other hand claims all kinds of absurd things, like heaven, hell, angels, satan, jinns, the evil eye etc, without (or inspite of) any evidence.

    Quote
    -What's the difference between two healthy bodies, one is alive, the other is dead? isn't it the soul? then what's this sould made of? How come we never see this soul comes out when someone dies?

    A dead body is healthy?? Cheesy  You die because of some medical problem in the body which prevents the body from functioning properly.  And after you die, many irreversible changes start to take place in the body which prevent you from being revived;  and you basically decompose like compost.
    Can you define exactly what you mean by 'soul'?

    Quote
    Guys, no one on earth can convince me that different materials (including steel, silica, etc...) can gather in a perfect way, yet by chance, to form a nice hand watch that you may find on the street to explain to you how it came to be there?

    :facepalm:
    Not by CHANCE dude,  not by chance.   Evolution through natural selection is not chance.

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Who's Dr. Shark
     Reply #97 - June 26, 2010, 08:32 AM

    -How did this world come to be? What was here before this universe came to be? If there was something, then what was there before this "something" came to be?

    There was a thread about this many weeks ago:
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=10206.msg262734#msg262734

    I will quote TheRationalizer's post on that thread:
    You find me ONE cosmologist who claims the universe came from nothing and I will show you someone masquerading as a cosmologist.

    The universe did not come from nothing, the universe was a tiny piece of mass which expanded and is still expanding, the "big bang" was the start of its current configuration and not the start of the universe itself.  Where did it come from? Maybe it has always existed and we are in some continuous pattern of expanding and the small dense matter some how reforming (such as how black holes become small and dense and then explode.)

    As for God...

    If you said to me "How did life start then?" and I answered "Aliens put us here" your next question would be "But who created the aliens?" right?

    So, why should God be exempt from such reasoning? I ask "How did life start?" you say "God", I ask "but who created God?" and then suddenly it's okay to assume that something complex can exist without being created?

    I think not.


    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Who's Dr. Shark
     Reply #98 - June 26, 2010, 08:36 AM

    Wow, I got quoted, and there was me thinking that people tend to dismiss what I say Smiley

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Who's Dr. Shark
     Reply #99 - June 26, 2010, 09:06 AM

    Nah, you're a cool guy, TheRationalizer. Afro  I like your use of examples in your arguments.  They really put things into perspective. Afro

    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Who's Dr. Shark
     Reply #100 - June 26, 2010, 10:28 AM

    Dr. Shark.. i sincerely hope you two can work through this.  Actually, my dad was furious when many
    years ago i became a christian.  (He was an athiest)
    WE had MANY fights, but we managed to work through them, and
    avoided MOST discussions about religion.  I loved my father VERY much, and i know he loved me too. 
    I hope you and moe can ultimately work things out and restore a semblence of a relationship together.

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Who's Dr. Shark
     Reply #101 - June 26, 2010, 11:54 AM

    From Muslim to Christian.  There's no fooling you Wink

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Who's Dr. Shark
     Reply #102 - June 26, 2010, 12:30 PM

    actually it was christian to muslim lol

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Who's Dr. Shark
     Reply #103 - June 28, 2010, 01:11 AM

    =(

    People shouldn't go to too extremes in anything and families should try in understanding one another in spite of differences.
  • Re: Who's Dr. Shark
     Reply #104 - June 28, 2010, 03:17 AM

    Actually Dr Shark I have just realised something.

    The question shouldn't be "Do you think God can make you happy despite your son burning in hell for eternity", the question really should be "Are you happy to accept that God will do that to your 'soul' in order to make you accept it?"

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Who's Dr. Shark
     Reply #105 - June 28, 2010, 04:39 AM

    There was a thread about this many weeks ago:
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=10206.msg262734#msg262734

    I will quote TheRationalizer's post on that thread:


    I should make my self clearer ans say: my point is that there are questions that we'll never ever find answers to, simply because we're humans and are not absolute like God is in knowledge, powere, justice, etc...... Such questions can go on and on for ever, just to prove that we can't find answers to them because of the limit to our thinking. So trying to subject everything to sience and reasoning is not always applicable. That's where superpower (God) comes into play. The fact we don't see the actual God doesn't mean he doesn't exist, but everything around us in this world and universe testifies to His super power and endless knowledge and wisdome. Smiley
  • Re: Who's Dr. Shark
     Reply #106 - June 28, 2010, 04:41 AM

    =(

    People shouldn't go to too extremes in anything and families should try in understanding one another in spite of differences.


    That's exactly why I'm in this forum wizzie. Wink
  • Re: Who's Dr. Shark
     Reply #107 - June 28, 2010, 04:44 AM

    by the way, Dr. Shark, I'm a bit dissapointed you ignored all my posts addressed to you in this thread  Cry

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Who's Dr. Shark
     Reply #108 - June 28, 2010, 06:44 AM

    I should make my self clearer ans say: my point is that there are questions that we'll never ever find answers to, simply because we're humans and are not absolute like God is in knowledge, powere, justice, etc...... Such questions can go on and on for ever, just to prove that we can't find answers to them because of the limit to our thinking. So trying to subject everything to sience and reasoning is not always applicable. That's where superpower (God) comes into play. The fact we don't see the actual God doesn't mean he doesn't exist, but everything around us in this world and universe testifies to His super power and endless knowledge and wisdome. Smiley


    Dr Shark

    That's all fine except for one thing.  You don't know that your idea of God is correct.  Ultimately you cannot know anything about God, therefore you can choose to accept that you know nothing or choose to believe anything at all.  But without proof that your idea of what God is like is correct you have no way of knowing if what you believe is right.  There is no objective proof that the Quran is true or that Muhammad had anything to do with the creator of the universe, if there was then nearly everyone on the planet would be a Muslim.

    Sure there are things in this universe which will never be known during the lifetime of you or I but that is not a catch-all excuse for believing anything you like.  For example, there are things we will never know about this universe therefore

    A: I don't know how Brahma created the universe from a lotus flower - but he did (Hinduism.)
    B: How humans are reincarnated over and over for infinity is unknown to me - but obviously true (Buddhism.)
    C: Why the angel Mormon made Joseph Smith copy the text off the golden tablets instead of letting him keep them - but he did (Mormonism.)

    Without objective proof there is no link from "There's so much I don't know" through to your conclusion.  You are basically saying "I don't know, therefore I know".

    But now back onto the subject of your son burning in hell.  Pain is a good way to incentivise people to do things they normally wouldn't do.  Given a choice between burning in hell for eternity with my son, and the possibility that I can instead exist for eternity in heaven and forget my son I have no idea what I would choose.  I'd like to think I'd choose to burn with him just so that I could remember my love for him, but eternity is a long time for me to change my mind and fire would be a good incentive to change it.

    So let's assume that I decide to take the option to go to heaven and forget my son so that I am not unhappy about his eternal suffering.  After my memory has been wiped I will no longer care, but BEFORE my memory is wiped (your time on Earth) I am fully aware that my son is going to burn forever and that I am going to forget all about him.  Regardless of how I will feel after the memory wipe I know for a fact that I am not going to like the situation before hand, I know that I am going to hate the idea of his suffering, I know that I am going to think the person forcing this choice on me is a complete bastard.

    So now the important question.  Is Allah a bastard for forcing this choice upon you, or is it simply that some bastard made up the idea of hell (which Muhammad just copied) and the ultimate loving being in the universe is nothing like its man-made perception?

    Don't confuse "God" with "Your god".  I am not saying God doesn't exist, I am saying YOUR God doesn't exist.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
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