something out of nothing?????

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something out of nothing?????
OP - May 09, 2010, 01:01 PM

how could be anything created out of nothing as if we talk about big bang or how world came into its form as it is now according to science.certainly for a big bang to happen or whatever was start of universe there would have to be something.give me details about what was there before anything and how it came into existence.does it leads to a creator?
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Reply #1 - May 09, 2010, 01:02 PM

Who said there was nothing? Who sais there is something?

Our brain just cant manage the fact that maybe, there allways was something.

Maybe there is just something because its more likely then there to be nothing.

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Re: something out of nothing?????
Reply #2 - May 09, 2010, 01:19 PM

Quote from: stevevargas on May 09, 2010, 01:01 PM
does it leads to a creator?

Where did the creator come from?
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Reply #3 - May 09, 2010, 01:19 PM

Quote from: stevevargas on May 09, 2010, 01:01 PM
how could be anything created out of nothing as if we talk about big bang or how world came into its form as it is now according to science.certainly for a big bang to happen or whatever was start of universe there would have to be something.give me details about what was there before anything and how it came into existence.does it leads to a creator?

Short answer. The big bang was the start of the universe as we know it. We don't know what happened before the big bang. It could have been created out of nothing, or of matter already there, we just don't know. This doesn't lead to a creator because we have no evidence that anyone created anything.

If you do go with the creator you have to ask the question that Kenan asked. Did the creator come from nothing? Or was he/she/ or it created?

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
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Re: something out of nothing?????
Reply #4 - May 09, 2010, 01:27 PM

Quote from: stevevargas on May 09, 2010, 01:01 PM
how could be anything created out of nothing as if we talk about big bang or how world came into its form as it is now according to science.certainly for a big bang to happen or whatever was start of universe there would have to be something.give me details about what was there before anything and how it came into existence.does it leads to a creator?

You find me ONE cosmologist who claims the universe came from nothing and I will show you someone masquerading as a cosmologist.

The universe did not come from nothing, the universe was a tiny piece of mass which expanded and is still expanding, the "big bang" was the start of its current configuration and not the start of the universe itself. Where did it come from? Maybe it has always existed and we are in some continuous pattern of expanding and the small dense matter some how reforming (such as how black holes become small and dense and then explode.)

As for God...

If you said to me "How did life start then?" and I answered "Aliens put us here" your next question would be "But who created the aliens?" right?

So, why should God be exempt from such reasoning? I ask "How did life start?" you say "God", I ask "but who created God?" and then suddenly it's okay to assume that something complex can exist without being created?

I think not.

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Re: something out of nothing?????
Reply #5 - May 09, 2010, 01:32 PM

Only claim what you can prove. So if you claim that there is a personal God, you have a heck of a task on you hands, my friend.
Scientists have good evidence for all their claims and religious people have fake evidence for their claims.
The internet is full of answers to your question. Here's one example: http://www.atheistnexus.org/profiles/blogs/questions-for-atheists

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Re: something out of nothing?????
Reply #6 - May 09, 2010, 01:36 PM

Quote from: deusvult on May 09, 2010, 01:19 PM
If you do go with the creator you have to ask the question that Kenan asked. Did the creator come from nothing? Or was he/she/ or it created?

Quote from: Kenan on May 09, 2010, 01:19 PM
Where did the creator come from?

That's an infinite regress right there.

God is regarded as the necessary being. The universe cannot be the necessary first cause because it itself is contingent and not eternal.

Therefore, the first cause must 'transcend' the universe. That's why people have claimed that this 'first cause' is God, and more specifically, their respective god.

As for 'something out of nothing:' The word 'nothing' in common parlance is not the same as it is in terms of physics. Rather, I understand that the 'nothing' in physics is the unstable, fluctuating primal state of existence, and it's out of that that the universe came.

There is no nothing without something and something without nothing.
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Reply #7 - May 09, 2010, 07:57 PM

Well if you ever find some 'nothing', let us know so that we can ascertain if something can come out of it. Thanks.
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Re: something out of nothing?????
Reply #8 - May 10, 2010, 06:33 AM

Well, its actually a question of time, space and reality. I will try to explain it with a scientific background:

The classic assumption is, that there is some sort of "background time" which always existed and which will always exist. This time is indepenend of everything else, and within that time we can objectively determine a snapshot of the universe at a certain point of time. We can also objectively determine, whether to events occur simulateously or not.

However, with the theory of relativity it turned out, that all these assumptions are false. There is no objective background - time, and there is no objective simultaniety of events. Time and space are not independend from each other, but together form something called "spacetime" in which certain rules apply.

Now, if you really want to understand that, try to see reality from "outside" of space and time: Like in a movie, instead of watching a character moving within the time of the movie, think about the movie as a whole - a static structure containing all events at all times.

Try to think about the universe in the same way. Don`t imagine objects moving through space, but instead try to imagine space AND time in one big static fourdimensional structure.

TIME and SPACE are now just aspects of that structure. By making a certain 3-dimenional cut through that structure, you will get the universe at one point of time for a certain observer within the universe. Each moment that you experience is now just an event in that 4-dimensional structure.

However, that structure is not infinite. Space, time and even mass and energy affect each other and are probably limited at one point which we call the "big bang". There probably was no "before", just in the same way as you cannot travel north of the north pole. Its simply a boundary of that structure.

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btw: its probably all much more complex, but that should be a basic description.
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Reply #9 - May 10, 2010, 06:36 AM

Quote from: stevevargas on May 09, 2010, 01:01 PM
how could be anything created out of nothing as if we talk about big bang or how world came into its form as it is now according to science.certainly for a big bang to happen or whatever was start of universe there would have to be something.give me details about what was there before anything and how it came into existence.does it leads to a creator?

All very good questions - and ones I have no answer for.

But none of that means God exists.

Even less does it mean Islam, Christianity etc... are true.
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Re: something out of nothing?????
Reply #10 - May 10, 2010, 06:40 AM

Quote from: Zebedee on May 09, 2010, 01:36 PM
God is regarded as the necessary being. The universe cannot be the necessary first cause because it itself is contingent and not eternal.

No, "Ian" is the necessary being. Ian is eternal and needs no first cause, Ian created the universe. Think I am wrong? Disprove it!

Quote from: Zebedee on May 09, 2010, 01:36 PM
Therefore, the first cause must 'transcend' the universe. That's why people have claimed that this 'first cause' is God, and more specifically, their respective god.

Why must it transcend the universe? How do you know the universe isn't eternal? The "big bang" wasn't the start of the universe, it was the start of the universe in its current state, the universe existed prior to its expansion. There could be much more outside of our expansion, lots of big expanding bubbles which disperse and then have their masses gather together to later form new expansions. If this is all happening outside of our sensory ability (too far away for example) we might never know about it.

That's just one hypothesis, there are many others, "God" is merely the oldest hypothesis - but that's because it is the easiest to explain.

A long time ago:
Question: "How big rock get up mountain?"
Answer: "Big man must have lift rock high!"

More recently:
Question: How did those large rocks get all the way up there?
Answer: The Earth goes through cycles of ice ages, a rock could easily be carried along by a massive sliding sheet of ice and get caught at the top of the hill, the ice sheets then later melt as the planet warms.

But putting aside the attempt to show there is no proof of God's existence. Even IF there is a God, religion claims to know what God wants. Without evidence of God there is clearly no evidence that anyone knows what this god wants, otherwise there would be evidence of God.

Religion is arrogance. It is merely a way to comfort those scared of their own mortality that if they sprinkle some magic water in the right places, eat the "right" food, and say the right magic words they will continue to live forever. The Egyptians made it into an industry with their "Book of the dead" which explained all the magic words and actions you needed to "pass the test" after you die and go to ever green fields to live with your deceased loved ones. Islam is merely one of many mutations on the same theme.

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Reply #11 - May 10, 2010, 06:44 AM

Hassan: Everything we see in the world, and everything that we have found out about it, can somehow be described with mathematical rules.

- Instead of an intelligent being which pushes the planets around the sun, we found out mathematical formulas.
- Instead of intelligent designed creatures, we found explanations which simply require simple rules and time
- All laws of nature are basically described by mathematical terms

So if there are any other unanswered questions, it is just reasonable to assume, that the answer will be some sort of mathematical principle. Its NOT reasonable to assume, that a question which cannot be answered yet implies that a certain claim of some person hundreds or thousands of years ago in the desert reveals the true nature behind everything ;-).

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Re: something out of nothing?????
Reply #12 - May 10, 2010, 06:49 AM

Quote from: UnsichtbarerGeist on May 10, 2010, 06:44 AM
Its NOT reasonable to assume, that a question which cannot be answered yet implies that a certain claim of some person hundreds or thousands of years ago in the desert reveals the true nature behind everything ;-)

Which was exactly my point, UG
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Reply #13 - May 10, 2010, 06:54 AM

Quote from: Hassan on May 10, 2010, 06:49 AM
Which was exactly my point, UG

It becomes self evident when you replace the word "God" with "fairies", although it is hard for a theist to see that the utterly stupid argument that fairies even exist is entirely as credible as God existing. I remember a guy using "Fairies" on me, I thought he was a total idiot because EVERYONE knows fairies don't exist - it took some months for me to reach the point where I realised the only difference between fairies and God is that the only reason people give God credibility is due to the fact that so many other people accept God exists despite having no more evidence than fairies!

Having re-read what I wrote, it was not very well expressed at all

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Reply #14 - May 10, 2010, 07:55 AM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on May 10, 2010, 06:40 AM
No, "Ian" is the necessary being. Ian is eternal and needs no first cause, Ian created the universe. Think I am wrong? Disprove it!

Why must it transcend the universe? How do you know the universe isn't eternal?

I'm simply reiterating the philosophical argument for the existence of God, whether I accept it is another thing. However, while I don't by any means believe that it proves the existence of their god, it does have some validity to it.

It has to transcend the universe because the universe is not, according to modern physics, past infinite and it is contingent and therefore needs an external cause. Unless, of course, you believe it caused itself, but it's obviously absurd to assert that something brought intself into being before it existed.

I think there is a default, primal state of being, and that state is unstable and undergoes quantum fluctuations. Such fluctuations may be what bring into existence new universes, including our own.

But I'm absolutely no expert in physics. Best to read a book by Hawking or Krauss if you want to find out how it works.
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Re: something out of nothing?????
Reply #15 - May 10, 2010, 08:25 AM

Quote from: Zebedee on May 10, 2010, 07:55 AM
I'm simply reiterating the philosophical argument for the existence of God, whether I accept it is another thing. However, while I don't by any means believe that it proves the existence of their god, it does have some validity to it.

It has to transcend the universe because the universe is not, according to modern physics, past infinite and it is contingent and therefore needs an external cause. Unless, of course, you believe it caused itself, but it's obviously absurd to assert that something brought intself into being before it existed.

I think there is a default, primal state of being, and that state is unstable and undergoes quantum fluctuations. Such fluctuations may be what bring into existence new universes, including our own.

But I'm absolutely no expert in physics. Best to read a book by Hawking or Krauss if you want to find out how it works.

Scientific discoveries don't make any claims the origin of the matter of the universe. All they say is that we know when it's current form started. It could be a continuously repeating loop of some kind, we just don't yet know.

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Reply #16 - May 10, 2010, 01:43 PM

The question only makes sense if you assume that we have a complete and accurate understanding of what time is, and what causation is. I'm not certain either of those apply.

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Re: something out of nothing?????
Reply #17 - May 12, 2010, 07:48 AM

Quote from: Kenan on May 09, 2010, 01:19 PM
Where did the creator come from?

the creator has always been there!

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Re: something out of nothing?????
Reply #18 - May 12, 2010, 08:00 AM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on May 10, 2010, 06:54 AM
It becomes self evident when you replace the word "God" with "fairies", although it is hard for a theist to see that the utterly stupid argument that fairies even exist is entirely as credible as God existing. I remember a guy using "Fairies" on me, I thought he was a total idiot because EVERYONE knows fairies don't exist - it took some months for me to reach the point where I realised the only difference between fairies and God is that the only reason people give God credibility is due to the fact that so many other people accept God exists despite having no more evidence than fairies!

this is actuallya a stupid argument, the issue isnt the name, it is the essence of the being, if you said that ian or fairy(has to be singular) is beyond creation, then i would agree that this si the cause of creation.

but if you say faries, or ian is part of creation, then this isnt God, Allah.

Having re-read what I wrote, it was not very well expressed at all

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Re: something out of nothing?????
Reply #19 - May 12, 2010, 08:01 AM

this is actuallya a stupid argument, the issue isnt the name, it is the essence of the being, if you said that ian or fairy(has to be singular) is beyond creation, then i would agree that this si the cause of creation.

but if you say faries, or ian is part of creation, then this isnt God, Allah.

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Reply #20 - May 12, 2010, 08:03 AM

what this means is that there is somthing that has started the process, this somthing is what muslim belive is Allah.

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Reply #21 - May 12, 2010, 08:45 AM

Quote from: JohnnyKhan on May 12, 2010, 08:03 AM
what this means is that there is somthing that has started the process, this somthing is what muslim belive is Allah.

The problem with using a theistic god as an explanation is that said god itself invokes a number of questions. Such questions like, 'why does this god want to be worshipped, of all things?' or 'why is this god able to think things into existence?'

A lot of religious people criticise atheism because they feel it can't answer the question of 'why is there something rather than nothing?' As if theism could answer it.

At the same time, they don't want to accept that a default, atheistic order can exist. They insist that a 'who' must have set the order there in the first place, and then neglect to realise that their god is an extremely sophisticated and inexplicable order itself.
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Reply #22 - May 12, 2010, 08:52 AM

The problem with using a theistic god as an explanation is that said god itself invokes a number of questions. Such questions like, 'why does this god want to be worshipped, of all things?' or 'why is this god able to think things into existence?'

A lot of religious people criticise atheism because they feel it can't answer the question of 'why is there something rather than nothing?' As if theism could answer it.

At the same time, they don't want to accept that a default, atheistic order can exist. They insist that a 'who' must have set the order there in the first place, and then neglect to realise that their god is an extremely sophisticated and inexplicable order itself."

Zebedee, the issue here is this, what can we as humans conclude from the realaties around us we can come to certain conclusions.

1) universe is limited in nature and is dependent
2) by definiition this requires a start(big bang etc)
3) the creator must be unlimited
4) therfore the creator being unlimited our understanding with our own limited brains isnt possible
5) we only know of the creator what he has told us.

from this and the questions you have posed, we cannot answer unless the creator has answered them. the creator doesnt need us to worship him.

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Re: something out of nothing?????
Reply #23 - May 12, 2010, 09:01 AM

@JohnnyKhan How can you be sure that the Quran is sent by Allah and not Satan himself?

Quote
3) the creator must be unlimited
4) therfore the creator being unlimited our understanding with our own limited brains isnt possible

are you sure there's only one creator?
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Reply #24 - May 12, 2010, 09:09 AM

Quote from: JohnnyKhan on May 12, 2010, 08:52 AM
Zebedee, the issue here is this, what can we as humans conclude from the realaties around us we can come to certain conclusions.

1) universe is limited in nature and is dependent
2) by definiition this requires a start(big bang etc)
3) the creator must be unlimited
4) therfore the creator being unlimited our understanding with our own limited brains isnt possible
5) we only know of the creator what he has told us.

from this and the questions you have posed, we cannot answer unless the creator has answered them. the creator doesnt need us to worship him.

Ok, let's see here.

1) Correct
2) Correct as far as I know. Although, I'm not sure that it's impossible for a contingent entity to be co-eternal with its cause.
3) 'Unlimited'? That's a very vague word to use. But let's say you mean that this 'creator' must have unlimited knowledge and power. This is absolutely false. Omniscience and omnipotence are neither logical nor practical prerequisites for creating a universe, any more than they are for creating any other sophisticated or complex thing.
4) As I stated, you've begged the question and made a false assertion on point 3
5) This assumes that this 'creator' tells us things, has any desire to tell us anything, or is even capable of such a thing. The premise of this point has not, to my knowledge, been demonstrated by anyone. That is, that this creator is able to communicate or has any desire to do so, with humans.

But notice that at no point did I write that 'God needs to be worshipped.' I stated that this god wants to be worshipped. Quite different, and indeed it is quite possibly a question that theists cannot answer.

[51:56]
I created the jinn and humankind only that they might worship Me.

The question is, why?

You see, there is literally no reason as to why this god is all-powerful, all-knowing, is able to will things into existence, and indeed there is no reason whatsoever for his wanting to be worshipped, praised and glorified. The theist must simply concede that that's just the way this god is, and for literally no reason.
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Reply #25 - May 12, 2010, 09:10 AM

I'm curious, is Allah the real creator or is it Lord Xenu?
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Reply #26 - May 12, 2010, 09:57 AM

Quote from: Chef on May 12, 2010, 09:01 AM
@JohnnyKhan How can you be sure that the Quran is sent by Allah and not Satan himself?

are you sure there's only one creator?

for you to belive in th devil you must belive in the Allah, Also, the quran is a sign from allah, It can only be his words.

yes there can only rationally be only one unlimited creator

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Reply #27 - May 12, 2010, 10:04 AM

Quote
Also, the quran is a sign from allah, It can only be his words.

First link off of google: http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/

Quote
yes there can only rationally be only one unlimited creator

First of all believing in an sky-God is an irrational belief. What exactly is your definition of Rational? For that matter, what is your definition of God?

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Re: something out of nothing?????
Reply #28 - May 12, 2010, 10:08 AM

Quote from: JohnnyKhan on May 12, 2010, 09:57 AM
Also, the quran is a sign from allah, It can only be his words.

Why?

The quran was written by men, attributed to Allah to make their power inviolable.

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Reply #29 - May 12, 2010, 10:10 AM

Ok, let's see here.

2) Correct as far as I know. Although, I'm not sure that it's impossible for a contingent entity to be co-eternal with its cause.

By you agree that the universe is limited, by Definition, it means it will have a start and a finish. and as a consequence, there is a need for somthing to create it, the second part of youatatement is irrational, there cant be 2 eternal things. plus by it being limited it cant be eternal.

3) 'Unlimited'? That's a very vague word to use. But let's say you mean that this 'creator' must have unlimited knowledge and power. This is absolutely false. Omniscience and omnipotence are neither logical nor practical prerequisites for creating a universe, any more than they are for creating any other sophisticated or complex thing.

no they are not a pre requit, but im saying that Allah is Unlimited, we will come to a problem, if the creator of the universe is not unlmited, becoase there will never be a cause for the universe to begin, and hence for our existence. there must be one eternal unlimited being that has started weverythign.

5) This assumes that this 'creator' tells us things, has any desire to tell us anything, or is even capable of such a thing. The premise of this point has not, to my knowledge, been demonstrated by anyone. That is, that this creator is able to communicate or has any desire to do so, with humans.

ok we can discuss this further, after the first few point have been discussed

But notice that at no point did I write that 'God needs to be worshipped.' I stated that this god wants to be worshipped. Quite different, and indeed it is quite possibly a question that theists cannot answer.

[51:56]
I created the jinn and humankind only that they might worship Me.

The question is, why?

You see, there is literally no reason as to why this god is all-powerful, all-knowing, is able to will things into existence, and indeed there is no reason whatsoever for his wanting to be worshipped, praised and glorified. The theist must simply concede that that's just the way this god is, and for literally no reason.
[/quote]

u like to assume a lot, we cannot assert anything from this ayat, except that as a muslim our purpose is to worship, and worship here isnt to pray on you hands and knees, it is to live your lives according to the laws of allah.

to say if allah needs it or even wants it there is no eveidenc e either way, he tells us that we need it as human beings

There is no God but Allah(swt) and Muhammad(saw) is his messenger.
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