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 Topic: When do you stop blaming God?

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  • Re: When do you stop blaming God?
     Reply #30 - April 23, 2010, 04:17 AM
    Hi Aziz,

    I printed off your list titled "God's Top 50 Killings" so I can take some time with it at home. We already spent a little time with number 7 Jephthah daughter. Would you really like to try another because if you would I would be interested. Just let me know. Same as last time no big hurry.

    I hope that you're doing well.

    Until next time.

    Lynna


    Quote from: Aziz on April 23, 2010, 03:10 AM
    God never killed anybody. You're a lier if you say otherwise! Angry

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: When do you stop blaming God?
     Reply #31 - April 23, 2010, 04:23 AM
    Okay. what is the huge amount of evidence that indicates Genesis is not history I'm alway so impressed with swiping statements about such and such evidence accompanied with no list of said evidence.
    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: When do you stop blaming God?
     Reply #32 - April 23, 2010, 04:28 AM
    Ok, pick one bit of Genesis you think is important and we'll go from there.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: When do you stop blaming God?
     Reply #33 - April 23, 2010, 04:35 AM
    The whole thing is important. What? Do you want me to pick the most important part?
    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: When do you stop blaming God?
     Reply #34 - April 23, 2010, 04:46 AM
    Quote from: Lynna on April 23, 2010, 04:17 AM
    Hi Aziz,

    I printed off your list titled "God's Top 50 Killings" so I can take some time with it at home. We already spent a little time with number 7 Jephthah daughter. Would you really like to try another because if you would I would be interested. Just let me know. Same as last time no big hurry.


    Hi Lynna,

    Hope you're doing okay as well. I'm not really interested in debating this. It should be clear to anyone that these killings make god look like a psychopath. And if you don't see it like that, you probably have faith in him and are blinded by the love to him. You can't argue with that Smiley. By the way, I was being sarcastic with that comment about god in the Bible. Wink
    German ex-Muslim forum — My YouTube — List of Ex-Muslims —
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    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: When do you stop blaming God?
     Reply #35 - April 23, 2010, 04:47 AM
    Yup. Pick something you regard as a literal historical event of some sort.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: When do you stop blaming God?
     Reply #36 - April 23, 2010, 04:55 AM
    Quote from: Lynna on April 23, 2010, 03:38 AM
    Hi Kenan

    Omniscient and omnipotent are words that I don't normally use so I looked them up:

    omniscient
    Definition: knowing and understanding all things
    Synonyms: all-knowing, all-seeing
    Antonyms: short-sighted

    omnipotent
    Having unlimited or universal power, authority, or force; all-powerful. See Usage Note at infinite.
    n.
    1. One having unlimited power or authority: the bureaucratic omnipotents.
    2. Omnipotent God. Used with the.

    Humm... I might really need more time to think about this.

    My first thought is that God is not omniscient, however neither is God short-sighted. God understands all things but he does not know beforehand exactly what I'm going to do next. God many have a good idea how a certian person might (re)act in a given situation based on the persons previous activity but that person still has freewill which means there is no bases for thinking a person is predestine.

    It seems that omnipotent is a word that could be applied to the true God. God has unlimited power but that does not mean he is bound to to use it in every situation. Things happen that God would perfer didn't happen.

    I don't know for sure right now because even as I sit here I realize there are aspects of these ideas that I have not given any or nearly enough thought to.

    What do you think?

    until next time. Lynna

    Until next time.








    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: When do you stop blaming God?
     Reply #37 - April 23, 2010, 05:03 AM
    Do you want to do this right now? I regard the whole thing as historical literal. (Well, the creative days are greatly simplified and poetic because the exact scientific explaination is not really needed to make the point.) It is nearly 4am and I still have a little better the an hour drive home.  Can we agree to meet about mid night Saturday my time?

    Quote from: osmanthus on April 23, 2010, 04:47 AM
    Yup. Pick something you regard as a literal historical event of some sort.

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: When do you stop blaming God?
     Reply #38 - April 23, 2010, 05:12 AM
    Whenever you like. We don't have to post at the same time.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: When do you stop blaming God?
     Reply #39 - April 23, 2010, 05:17 AM
    Okay, I din't have access to a computer except before and after work and some times at the library.  So most likely that will be early Sunday morning (just after midnight Saturday). My hope (and prayer) is that you remain safe and well.

    Until next time. Lynna
    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: When do you stop blaming God?
     Reply #40 - April 23, 2010, 07:16 AM
    Quote from: Lynna on April 23, 2010, 03:38 AM
    Humm... I might really need more time to think about this.

    My first thought is that God is not omniscient, however neither is God short-sighted. God understands all things but he does not know beforehand exactly what I'm going to do next. God many have a good idea how a certian person might (re)act in a given situation based on the persons previous activity but that person still has freewill which means there is no bases for thinking a person is predestine

    Your own Bible proves you wrong:

    Check Isaiah 46:9-10

    King James Version:
    Quote
    Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
    Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:


    Contemporary English Version:
    Quote
    I alone am God!
    There are no other gods;
    no one is like me.
    Think about what happened
    many years ago.
    From the very beginning,
    I told what would happen
    long before it took place.


    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+46:9-11&version=KJV
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: When do you stop blaming God?
     Reply #41 - April 23, 2010, 07:20 AM
    So, the Christian God supposedly knows everything that has happen and will ever happen.

    And it kinda makes sense since in the Bible God claims to be the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. So that implies God knows all future events.

    Also, add the whole Apocalypse in the picture, which represents many events that are yet to happen: so God does not simply know that he will be the first and the last. He knows everything in between too.
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: When do you stop blaming God?
     Reply #42 - April 23, 2010, 06:14 PM
    Quote from: Lynna on April 22, 2010, 10:38 AM
    Hi,
    Perhaps you still feel angry toward God because you blame him for things that were done in the name of God and religion that God had no intention to happen. Things like injustice, child abuse, racism, untimely death, natural disasters were not and are not part of God's original plan. So, maybe next time you become angry with God you could take a moment to think about who is really responsible and blame them and be angry with them enstead. 

    Until another time, Lynna






    Hi Lynna, I only just saw your reply so forgive me for the late reply.

    I'm not sure I understand you - are you saying that God did not plan all that has happened and will happen?

    Are you saying that - for example - earthquakes  are nothing to do with him?

    Whose fault are they then?

  • Re: When do you stop blaming God?
     Reply #43 - April 24, 2010, 05:02 AM
    Hassan, forget it. She's already rendered the Abrahamic/Theist God into non-existence by disarming His attributes of Omnipotence and Omniscience.
  • Re: When do you stop blaming God?
     Reply #44 - April 24, 2010, 05:15 AM
    Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on April 24, 2010, 05:02 AM
    Hassan, forget it. She's already rendered the Abrahamic/Theist God into non-existence by disarming His attributes of Omnipotence and Omniscience.


    OK, thanks.

    I find the idea of a limited and incompetent god even more absurd and problematic than an Omniscient and Omnipotent god.
  • Re: When do you stop blaming God?
     Reply #45 - April 25, 2010, 11:20 AM
    Quote from: Lynna on April 23, 2010, 03:38 AM
    My first thought is that God is not omniscient, however neither is God short-sighted. God understands all things but he does not know beforehand exactly what I'm going to do next. God many have a good idea how a certian person might (re)act in a given situation based on the persons previous activity but that person still has freewill which means there is no bases for thinking a person is predestine.

    It seems that omnipotent is a word that could be applied to the true God. God has unlimited power but that does not mean he is bound to to use it in every situation. Things happen that God would perfer didn't happen.

    I don't know for sure right now because even as I sit here I realize there are aspects of these ideas that I have not given any or nearly enough thought to.

    What do you think?

    Frankly If I was to judge what you have written there from a standard Abrahamic religious perspective I would have to conclude that you are blaspheming.

    Quote from: Hassan on April 24, 2010, 05:15 AM
    I find the idea of a limited and incompetent god even more absurd and problematic than an Omniscient and Omnipotent god.

    +1
    Even though as far as Flying Spaghetti Monster is concerned I am willing to show some leniency. He was partying hard and was drunk and tripping hard when he created this world.
    I mean, it could happen to anyone.
  • Re: When do you stop blaming God?
     Reply #46 - May 02, 2010, 03:20 AM
    Hi Hassan
    No problem with your late reply. I am not frequently able to be on line. So I perfer slow conversations.

    Quote
    I'm not sure I understand you - are you saying that God did not plan all that has happened and will happen?


    Yes, I am saying that Jehovah did not plan or cause ever detail of what is happening. Neither has the activity of each individual been perdetermined by Jehovah.

    Jehovah however does know how the outcome or end result of world history will be.

    As has been pointed out at:

    Isaiah 46:8 “Remember this, that YOU people may muster up courage. Lay it to heart, YOU transgressors. 9 Remember the first things of a long time ago, that I am the Divine One and there is no other God, nor anyone like me; 10 the One telling from the beginning the finale, and from long ago the things that have not been done; the One saying, ‘My own counsel will stand, and everything that is my delight I shall do’; 11 the One calling from the sunrising a bird of prey, from a distant land the man to execute my counsel. I have even spoken [it]; I shall also bring it in. I have formed [it], I shall also do it.

    There are things that Jehovah chooses to do and will do. For example Jehovah says everything that is my delight I shall do. The things is to understand what it is that Jehovah delights to do.

    You bring up about earthquakes and post a picture of the horrible destruction and death cause by one. Jehovah did not cause the earthquake in Hatie. Most all earthquakes are caused by geological faults. A great deal of the distruction is caused because first of all people live in these geologic fault areas by desire or by need and second of all because of poor construction techniques.

    Can Jevovah cause earthquakes. Yes. Has Jehovah ever caused an earthquake. Yes. The Bible records that Korah, Dathan, Abiram and thier families with into the grave alive. (Numbers 24:1-50). Did these people have to come to this end. No. They could have made another choice but give it no regard and suffered for their own action.

    If you examine the Bible every time Jehovah caused a disaster people were given a clear warning a head of to time so they could take action to avoid the disaster.

    Quote
    I find the idea of a limited and incompetent god even more absurd and problematic than an Omniscient and Omnipotent god.


    Now you have me confused.

    How do you figure that Jevovah is "limited and incompetent"? Because I said he didn't cause that earthquake?

    Would it cause Jehovah to be "limited and incompetent" because he chose not to take a certain action at certain time for a certain reason?

    Or is it because mankind has freewill?

    Would it absolutely cause Jehovah to be "limited and incompetent" because he choses to let you and me make our own choices? It seems far more absurd to me to think my actions are completely out of my control, perdetermined by God, and then I will be judged and punished or rewarded based on some thing that was totally out of my control.

    I hope to hear from you again,

    until next time

    Lynna
    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: When do you stop blaming God?
     Reply #47 - May 02, 2010, 03:34 AM
    So, Kenan you think:

    Quote
    Frankly If I was to judge what you have written there from a standard Abrahamic religious perspective I would have to conclude that you are blaspheming.
     


    So do you find the standard Abrahamic religious perspective a good method for determining if a person is blaspheming?

    Until next time Lynna
    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: When do you stop blaming God?
     Reply #48 - May 02, 2010, 03:51 AM
    Hi Osthmanus

    Quote from: osmanthus on April 23, 2010, 04:28 AM
    Ok, pick one bit of Genesis you think is important and we'll go from there.


    Okay, I pick Genesis 14:1-24.

    Sorry, it was so long before I got back to you on this.

    Hope to hear from you.

    Hopefully in the next couple of weeks I'm going to get an iphone. then I can have the internet while I'm at home. Then perhaps from time to time I will have more time to be online.

    Until next time.

    Lynna
    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: When do you stop blaming God?
     Reply #49 - May 02, 2010, 04:14 AM
    Hass, i dont want to interrupt your conversation, i just want to awnser your first question with the view i, as a life long atheist, have on this topic.

    For me, there never was a god i could blame. I just accepted that some things (like earthquakes and other natural disasters) happen, and i cant do shit about it. I can help the people affected by it, but theres nothing to be angry about. You cant be angry with nature.

    Then theres the stuff people do to other people. In those situations i just get angry with the idiots did whatever they did.

    I could here take the tsunami and september 11. I never asked myself why god did this, or got angry because he did. The tsunami was horrible, and i was shocked as were most other people. But at 9.11 Humans killed Humans. For me there was no higher power to blame, just the people, even if they were deluded by a believe in Allah, that did this.

    I never had the comfort of blaming a higher power on bad things that happened to me or my family. But its kind of comforting to know, that humans dont have power over everything. We are still inside the great game of chance that the universe is.

    But in the end, this few lines cant really describe how an atheistic mind that never knew faith in a religion works... I still hope it helped in a way, even if just with a little insight  Smiley
    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves." - from Goethes Faust
    "Only the wisest and the stupidest men never change." - Confuzios
    "there is no religion of peace, only people who are peaceful while being religious."
  • Re: When do you stop blaming God?
     Reply #50 - May 02, 2010, 04:22 AM
    And what, exactly, is Genesis 14:1-24?

    Also, which translation are you intending to use?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: When do you stop blaming God?
     Reply #51 - May 02, 2010, 07:10 AM
    Quote from: Lynna on May 02, 2010, 03:34 AM
    So do you find the standard Abrahamic religious perspective a good method for determining if a person is blaspheming?

    From my perspective there is no such thing as blasphemy.

    Blasphemy is the crime of assuming to oneself the rights or qualities of God.

    Which you did and your interpretation of what God can or cannot do goes against the interpretation of all Abrahamic religions.
    I was merely saying that what you said there would be considered blasphemous by a vast majority of believers, even your Christian co-religionists.
  • Re: When do you stop blaming God?
     Reply #52 - May 02, 2010, 08:13 AM
    Quote from: DigDeep on May 02, 2010, 04:14 AM
    I never had the comfort of blaming a higher power on bad things that happened to me or my family. But its kind of comforting to know, that humans dont have power over everything. We are still inside the great game of chance that the universe is.

    Strangely, that comfort you speak of was one of my major issues with monotheistic belief. I kept becoming aware of the god construct in my mind whilst attemting to offload difficult emotions for processing - I wasn't able to succesfully nullify those emotions. This lead to inevitable resentment towards my god artifice which I couldn't bury deeply enough in my subconscious. I, like you, was brought up without any particular beliefs but I can imagine it's more difficult for people who have their celestial teapots installed during childhood to attempt removal of a device which serves heavily  in processing difficult emotions.
    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: When do you stop blaming God?
     Reply #53 - May 02, 2010, 08:37 AM
    Quote from: thinkfree on May 02, 2010, 08:13 AM
    Strangely, that comfort you speak of was one of my major issues with monotheistic belief. I kept becoming aware of the god construct in my mind whilst attemting to offload difficult emotions for processing - I wasn't able to succesfully nullify those emotions. This lead to inevitable resentment towards my god artifice which I couldn't to bury deeply enough in my subconscious. I, like you, was brought up without any particular beliefs but I can imagine it's more difficult for people who have their celestial teapots installed during childhood to attempt removal of a device which serves heavily  in processing difficult emotions.

    Now that is an interesting point.

    Humans spontaneously and subconsciously attribute meaning to whatever happens to us. For example if a personal tragedy befalls us it is much easier to say that it was God's will rather then saying that there is no reason behind it, that it just happened. Because if it's God's will its still in the Universe of meaning; a lot of people on a personal level simply cannot deal with the vacuity of meaninglessness.

    For example a few weeks ago there was a thread created by a Muslim girl whose father died and she was blaming God for it and pondering about leaving Islam as a result.
  • Re: When do you stop blaming God?
     Reply #54 - May 02, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Quote from: Lynna on May 02, 2010, 03:20 AM

    Now you have me confused.

    How do you figure that Jevovah is "limited and incompetent"? Because I said he didn't cause that earthquake?

    Would it cause Jehovah to be "limited and incompetent" because he chose not to take a certain action at certain time for a certain reason?

    Or is it because mankind has freewill?

    Would it absolutely cause Jehovah to be "limited and incompetent" because he choses to let you and me make our own choices? It seems far more absurd to me to think my actions are completely out of my control, perdetermined by God, and then I will be judged and punished or rewarded based on some thing that was totally out of my control.

    Hmmm because he didn't do anything to prevent the earthquake from happening?
  • Re: When do you stop blaming God?
     Reply #55 - May 03, 2010, 07:37 AM
    Whos that Jevovah dude your talking about?
    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves." - from Goethes Faust
    "Only the wisest and the stupidest men never change." - Confuzios
    "there is no religion of peace, only people who are peaceful while being religious."
  • Re: When do you stop blaming God?
     Reply #56 - May 05, 2010, 01:51 AM
    Hi Osmanthus,

    I perfer to use the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, because it is written in modern English (my primary language). However if you perfer another I'll consider that one. It might perhaps be better to compare if there are actual meaning differences one to the other.

    A link to Genesis 14:1-24        http://watchtower.org/e/bible/index.htm

    I picked that chapter rather randomly, because it had alot of names of people and and places. Those sort of things are useful when looking into the historicity of an event.

    Looking forward to next time.

    Lynna
    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: When do you stop blaming God?
     Reply #57 - May 05, 2010, 02:01 AM
    Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on May 02, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Hmmm because he didn't do anything to prevent the earthquake from happening?


    That is an interesting thought, Iraqi Atheist.

    Would you have started to believe there is a God if he had stopped that earthquake from happening? Or any other earthquake for that matter? Would have you then started to think a God who could do that has the right to give me directions on the best way to live my life?

    until next time, Lynna
    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: When do you stop blaming God?
     Reply #58 - May 05, 2010, 02:28 AM
    Quote from: DigDeep on May 03, 2010, 07:37 AM
    Whos that Jevovah dude your talking about?


    Seems like quite sometime ago someone else asked a similar question.

    But Phar´aoh said: “Who is Jehovah, so that I should obey his voice to send Israel away? I do not know Jehovah at all and, what is more, I am not going to send Israel away.”

    Jehovah is the English word for translating the Hebrew tetragrammaton for God's name in the Bible.

    I was noticing that you have three quotes as signature at the bottom of your posts. The third one is not accredited to anyone.

    Quote
    "there is no religion of peace, only people who are peaceful while being religious."


    Who said it? Is it your own thought?

    Until next time, Lynna
    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: When do you stop blaming God?
     Reply #59 - May 05, 2010, 02:41 AM
    Quote from: Lynna on May 05, 2010, 02:01 AM
    That is an interesting thought, Iraqi Atheist.

    Would you have started to believe there is a God if he had stopped that earthquake from happening? Or any other earthquake for that matter? Would have you then started to think a God who could do that has the right to give me directions on the best way to live my life?

    until next time, Lynna


    The question Lynna is why did God create a world where earth quakes can happen?

    Speaking of free will is interesting, you say God gave us this gift. Well it does come with a price, the price of heaven and hell. Which is an interesting deal, I give you free will, you can rape children, their free will is thus negated (they didnt choose to be raped) and then there will be judgement day. Where finite life is either rewarded or punished infintly.
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