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Theme Changer

 Topic: hi to all

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  • Re: hi to all
     Reply #30 - April 18, 2010, 02:17 PM
    Quote from: shoaib on April 18, 2010, 02:02 PM
    Thanks for your welcome Moealharbi. You have asked very good questions and  I will try to answer them honestly.

    1. If I was born in another family of a different faith, would I still convert to Islam? Or would I see my birth-faith as the one true religion?
    answer: If i was born in another religion, I would probably reject islam as true religion.


    2. If predestination is true, then how is it fair that some people are destined to die on another faith than Islam? How does this explain our freedom to choose what to believe?
     
    answer: predestination has different meanings for different theists. For many it doesn't stop man's freedom to choose.

    3. If the ideal 'perfectly good' person were to exist, and died not believing in Islam, would it be fair to send that person to hell?
    answer: No, it isn't fair. Its very wrong


    4. Punishment in hell is forever, try to imagine how long "forever" is.

    answer: Burning people forever in hell is wrong even if they are criminals.



    What you think of those and similar beliefs in Religion? Do you think they are good, fair or right? What would you think of the god of Islam (his character traits) if you were looking at him as an outsider?
  • Re: hi to all
     Reply #31 - April 18, 2010, 02:24 PM
    Quote from: shoaib on April 18, 2010, 02:02 PM
    2. If predestination is true, then how is it fair that some people are destined to die on another faith than Islam? How does this explain our freedom to choose what to believe?


    This was a question that troubled me throughout the many years I was a practising Muslim and it never made sense.

    The usual answer I got was:

    "Allah knows but we don't know - therefore we are making our choices freely."

    But the fact we don't know doesn't mean we have free-will and still doesn't answer the question of how we could in fact behave any differently than the way were created to behave.

    The creations of an all-knowing and all-powerful God (as described in Islam) can only ever be exactly what he made them to be. Their very creation, genes, mind and every tiny cell is all determined - their childhood, socialization, environment, and every tiny detail is all determined. The choices they make have been written and decided upon even before they were created by a God who knows everything.

    The only way we could have freewill if God was to have created us without knowing what we would do, without knowing how we would turn out. But how can a God who knows every tiny detail and has absolute and complete power, not know how his creation will turn out - not know how they will behave - or not have planned it so?
  • Re: hi to all
     Reply #32 - April 18, 2010, 02:38 PM
    It troubled me as a muslim too.

    Although recently I came to a standstill with this after a debate with someone I know.  

    It goes like this..  Allah doesnt control what we do so we still have free-will, he just knows what our choices will be.    I dont think you can argue with this stance.
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  • Re: hi to all
     Reply #33 - April 18, 2010, 02:41 PM
    Yes, you can argue with that stance because it doesn't make sense (and is what I was always told too!)

    The problem is how can God not control what we do? That means his creation has the capacity to act in ways he did not intend them to act?

    You see what Allah intends/wills equates with control.
  • Re: hi to all
     Reply #34 - April 18, 2010, 02:43 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on April 18, 2010, 02:41 PM
    Yes, that's what I was always told, but that doesn't make sense.

    How can God not control what we do? That means his creation has the capacity to act in ways he did not intend them to act?

    There was never any intention, just hope
    Quote
    How can that be?

    Because he gave them free-will
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  • Re: hi to all
     Reply #35 - April 18, 2010, 02:47 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on April 18, 2010, 02:43 PM
    There was never any intention, just hopeBecause he gave them free-will


    Nope, that cannot be so for an Omniscient and Omnipotent God.

    If you say there was "no intention just hope" - then you are saying God did not know how we would turn out and what we would do - and that would mean he is not Omniscient nor Omnipotent.
  • Re: hi to all
     Reply #36 - April 18, 2010, 03:22 PM
    hiya and welcome... victory
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV9vdUjuWxc
  • Re: hi to all
     Reply #37 - April 18, 2010, 03:24 PM
    Agreed - but the assumption made here is that he did know.  

    The proceeding "Why/What was the point" question is met with a shoulder shrug.
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  • Re: hi to all
     Reply #38 - April 18, 2010, 03:33 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on April 18, 2010, 03:24 PM
    Agreed - but the assumption made here is that he did know.  


    Well that is a must for an Omniscient God.
  • Re: hi to all
     Reply #39 - April 18, 2010, 03:46 PM
    Why do I get the feeling you've done this before  Wink
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  • Re: hi to all
     Reply #40 - April 18, 2010, 03:54 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on April 18, 2010, 03:24 PM
    Agreed - but the assumption made here is that he did know.  

    The proceeding "Why/What was the point" question is met with a shoulder shrug.

    Could be even worse than that.
    If God knows then why doesn't God do something about it?
    Doesn't God care?
  • Re: hi to all
     Reply #41 - April 18, 2010, 03:57 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on April 18, 2010, 03:46 PM
    Why do I get the feeling you've done this before  Wink


    lol... like I say it is question that always troubled me  grin12
  • Re: hi to all
     Reply #42 - April 18, 2010, 03:59 PM
    Quote from: Kenan on April 18, 2010, 03:54 PM
    Could be even worse than that.
    If God knows then why doesn't God do something about it?
    Doesn't God care?



    Worse than that a judge who knows a crime is to be committed and has the power to stop it but does nothing is at least partly guilty. To then then excessively punish the culprit - and then demand he be praised for all this - is beyond belief!
  • Re: hi to all
     Reply #43 - April 18, 2010, 04:05 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on April 18, 2010, 03:57 PM
    lol... like I say it is question that always troubled me  grin12

    Me too - but I never got to the bottom of it as the argument always got stuck on the omnicient question, rather than the free-will one (like we just did)
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  • Re: hi to all
     Reply #44 - April 18, 2010, 04:07 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on April 18, 2010, 03:59 PM
    Worse than that a judge who knows a crime is to be committed and has the power to stop it but does nothing is at least partly guilty. To then then excessively punish the culprit - and then demand he be praised for all this - is beyond belief!

    Spoken like a true apostate Cheesy
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  • Re: hi to all
     Reply #45 - April 18, 2010, 04:11 PM
    Quote from: Lilyesque on April 18, 2010, 02:17 PM
    What you think of those and similar beliefs in Religion? Do you think they are good, fair or right? What would you think of the god of Islam (his character traits) if you were looking at him as an outsider?


    i think concept of  eternal hell and merciful God is absurd in some religions. If i read Quran as an outsider, i would consider Him very cruel and sadist.
  • Re: hi to all
     Reply #46 - April 18, 2010, 04:17 PM
    Quote from: shoaib on April 18, 2010, 04:11 PM
    If i read Quran as an outsider, i would consider Him very cruel and sadist.

    So how do you get around this issue?
    I mean you can surely see that Allah seems to be a psychotic/psychopathic monster - if Quran is true that is.
  • Re: hi to all
     Reply #47 - April 18, 2010, 04:19 PM
    To most muslims this question is irrelevent (as it used to be to me)

    Whether he is good or bad, problem is he can do what he wants to you.  

    He's God & thats that.
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  • Re: hi to all
     Reply #48 - April 18, 2010, 04:22 PM
    Quote from: shoaib on April 18, 2010, 04:11 PM
    i think concept of  eternal hell and merciful God is absurd in some religions. If i read Quran as an outsider, i would consider Him very cruel and sadist.

     Would you support a say criminal if he possessed these traits? If no, why would you support this god creature?
  • Re: hi to all
     Reply #49 - April 18, 2010, 04:23 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on April 18, 2010, 03:59 PM
    Worse than that a judge who knows a crime is to be committed and has the power to stop it but does nothing is at least partly guilty. To then then excessively punish the culprit - and then demand he be praised for all this - is beyond belief!



    ....and that really is the ultimate question for me! Why did Allah the most Gracious, most Merciful - create me knowing that I would be destined for hell. Then judge me in the hereafter, for crimes He knew I would commit. Then - roast me in hellfire for eternity....

    Allah loves me more than any parent loves his/her child. I too have children, and no matter how evil an act they may commit, I would never burn them in fire, heal them, burn them and so on for eternity.....
  • Re: hi to all
     Reply #50 - April 18, 2010, 04:24 PM
    Quote from: Lilyesque on April 18, 2010, 04:22 PM
    Would you support a say criminal if he possessed these traits? If no, why would you support this god creature?

    God is not like a criminal, he's more like a bouncer deciding if you are allowed in or or not.
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  • Re: hi to all
     Reply #51 - April 18, 2010, 04:26 PM
    He is a right twanker then aint he?
  • Re: hi to all
     Reply #52 - April 18, 2010, 04:27 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on April 18, 2010, 04:24 PM
    God is not like a criminal, he's more like a bouncer deciding if you are allowed in or or not.


    I think Allah is more like a sadist - Josef Fritzl style.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on April 30, 2011, 11:33 PM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: hi to all
     Reply #53 - April 18, 2010, 04:29 PM
    Quote from: abuk on April 18, 2010, 04:23 PM

    ....and that really is the ultimate question for me! Why did Allah the most Gracious, most Merciful - create me knowing that I would be destined for hell. Then judge me in the hereafter, for crimes He knew I would commit. Then - roast me in hellfire for eternity....

    Allah loves me more than any parent loves his/her child. I too have children, and no matter how evil an act they may commit, I would never burn them in fire, heal them, burn them and so on for eternity.....


    Like I said - Allah is really creepy. He is a sadistic torturing serial killer type of creepiness. The kind that locks his children in dungeons, and tortures them, whilst demanding they spend their lives telling him how much they love and fear him.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on April 30, 2011, 11:33 PM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: hi to all
     Reply #54 - April 18, 2010, 04:31 PM
    I take my words back, he is in fact a criminal.  If you look at the number of human rights offences he is in breach off.  Destroying Lots town, ethnic cleansing in pre-islamic Arabia, giving the nod to Mohammeds under-age marriage, barbaric torture in hell etc.
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  • Re: hi to all
     Reply #55 - April 18, 2010, 04:36 PM
    Quote from: Lilyesque on April 18, 2010, 04:22 PM
    Would you support a say criminal if he possessed these traits? If no, why would you support this god creature?


    yeh you are right. Nobody should support such kind of God and i don't want to support any God that is cruel.
  • Re: hi to all
     Reply #56 - April 18, 2010, 04:37 PM
    There is ye answer then my love.
  • Re: hi to all
     Reply #57 - April 18, 2010, 04:40 PM
    And by the way, welcome to the board, hope you have fun and  thnkyu for your reasonableness.
  • Re: hi to all
     Reply #58 - April 18, 2010, 04:50 PM
    Quote from: Lilyesque on April 18, 2010, 04:37 PM
    There is ye answer then my love.


    Thanks for your support lily. I want to say what i feel and think but I'm still afraid to share my thoughts. I don't know why?
  • Re: hi to all
     Reply #59 - April 18, 2010, 04:53 PM
    It takes time my friend to break free from a lifetime of indoctrination.  It took my a long long time to finally muster up the courage to say I was no longer a muslim.  And that was in reaction to constant badgering from a muslim about why I felt it necessary to change the meaning of the Quran as it was perfect.
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