Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
April 28, 2024, 06:41 AM

Lights on the way
by akay
April 27, 2024, 01:26 PM

New Britain
April 27, 2024, 08:42 AM

What's happened to the fo...
April 27, 2024, 08:30 AM

Qur'anic studies today
April 23, 2024, 02:50 AM

Do humans have needed kno...
April 20, 2024, 08:02 AM

Do humans have needed kno...
April 19, 2024, 12:17 AM

Iran launches drones
April 13, 2024, 05:56 PM

عيد مبارك للجميع! ^_^
by akay
April 12, 2024, 12:01 PM

Eid-Al-Fitr
by akay
April 12, 2024, 08:06 AM

Mock Them and Move on., ...
January 30, 2024, 05:44 AM

Pro Israel or Pro Palesti...
January 29, 2024, 08:53 AM

Theme Changer

 Topic: zulqarnain in Quran

 (Read 34856 times)
  • Previous page 1 23 4 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: zulqarnain in Quran
     Reply #30 - April 18, 2010, 09:54 AM

    No, again he shows his ignorance of Arabic. If it was in the passive form (To be found i.e appeared): wujida وُجِدَ he might have a leg to stand on, but even then it would have to be in the feminine passive = wujidat وُجِدَتْ (since the sun is feminine) and the "it" ها would be totally redundant and make no sense.

    This is all academic, since the verb is not passive, it's in the transitive form (To find sth) and so it must have a subject and an object. The subject is Thul-Qarnayn and the object is "it" ها i.e. the sun.


    hmmm so here the word wajada means "found" not "appeared" because it's in transitive form not in passive form.  If this is the case then I'm amazed why dr William Campbell remained silent after all this ridiculous translations of Zakir Naik. I have heard he is an expert in Arabic, His silence gave wrong impression that Dr Zakir was absolutely correct. 
    Thanks for giving me this information. thnkyu
  • Re: zulqarnain in Quran
     Reply #31 - April 18, 2010, 10:00 AM

    I must admit I don't know much about Zakir Naik - I never took any notice of him and that sort of celebrity preacher that seem to love their own voice and sophistry skills in front of an audience more than anything - but the more I hear of him now the more I realise what an idiot he is.


    Hassan he is very famous in many muslim countries. Muslims consider him very knowledgeable about islam and other religions.  Have you seen his debates?
  • Re: zulqarnain in Quran
     Reply #32 - April 18, 2010, 10:02 AM

    hmmm so here the word wajada means "found" not "appeared" because it's in transitive form not in passive form.  If this is the case then I'm amazed why dr William Campbell remained silent after all this ridiculous translations of Zakir Naik. I have heard he is an expert in Arabic, His silence gave wrong impression that Dr Zakir was absolutely correct.  
    Thanks for giving me this information. thnkyu


    I haven't seen the discussion you talk about but sometimes in a debate you miss a point and only later you remember what you should have said.

    The first time I looked closely at something Zakir Naik has said was in the video below. The claim Naik and others make is that one of the miracles of the Qur'an is that there are no grammatical errors. The guy in the video starts to point some out and Naiks reply is basically, "Grammar was built on the Qur'an comes from the Qur'an so it cannot have any mistakes"

    In other words there is no objective criterion for testing the grammar of the Qur'an.

    In which case one cannot claim the lack of mistakes to be a miracle, since this cannot be objectively tested!

    Kinda obvious, but Naik seems blissfully unaware that he is destroying the basis for this "miracle"  Roll Eyes

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NqzX_HZKwY
  • Re: zulqarnain in Quran
     Reply #33 - April 18, 2010, 10:04 AM

    When I see so many people located in once place I can't help but wonder how people can be that ignorant


    It is possible If people teach their children that logic is fallible but God's revelation is not.


  • Re: zulqarnain in Quran
     Reply #34 - April 18, 2010, 10:09 AM

    18:86 According to Muhammad Asad:

    [And he marched westwards] till, when he came to the setting of the sun, it appeared to him that it was setting in a dark, turbid sea; and nearby he found a people [given to every kind of wrongdoing].
    We said: "O thou Two-Horned One! Thou mayest either cause [them] to suffer or treat them with kindness!"

    According to Muhammad Asad, his metaphorical explanation is based upon Razi and ibn kathir, and further backed up by the Qur'an commentary by Abu Ali Al-Jubba'i the famous Mutazilli scholar who died in 915/916 AD. Having read Muhammad Asad's translation cover to cover, God only knows why he just didn't come out and admit he was a Mutazillite given that his translation is probably the most blatantly obvious 'coming out' displays one could see. 'This Law of ours and other essays' pretty much the ultimate confirmation of his Mutazillite leanings if anyone wanted undeniable proof - I guess in his defence he was hoping to walk a tight rope of reforming but not being out of the mainstream whilst ignoring the fact that he was never part of the Muslim mainstream by a long shot.

    His use of appeared instead of found; maybe it was a deliberate choice given that his explanation is metaphorical and thus the use of appeared renders the meaning a lot easier than the use of found.

    It is possible If people teach their children that logic is fallible but God's revelation is not.


    I have nothing against maybe someone sitting at home read and studying a holy book but it dumbfounds me when I see this guru worshipping that comes out of south east asia - its almost like a hang over from hindu days that is now being practiced as Muslims with this almost unquestioned veneration of people like Zakir Naik and Deedat.

    Why don't you guys watch those debates.. the game in Public is whoever can shout louder they will win., More over we have to realize this guy will not debate in writing but what he wants is appear in public with 1000 Muslims lokking at your face., And if you or your families are Muslims(even if you are not) you will have a problem..

    Zakir Naik vs William Campbell-Quran and Bible (pt 1 0f 10)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcKZnmBnQVE&feature=PlayList&p=6AF783757C87EE26&playnext_from=PL&index=0&playnext=1

    Please watch all 10 before you comment., You see it is easy for big mouth Muslims like Zakir to go against Christians., specailly soft spoken Christian guys.  What they will do is hit with basic that Christ is neither Son of God nor God ., he is just messenger like Mr. Muhammad.   right there A Christ follower will have hard time and he/she will be defensive..

    I am glad Shoiab discussing the subject..

    with best regards
    yeezevee


    Well, an easy way to kill that debate would be to say you're a Unitarian - it would shut down the debate pretty quickly.

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: zulqarnain in Quran
     Reply #35 - April 18, 2010, 10:11 AM

    Why don't you guys watch those debates.. the game in Public is whoever can shout louder they will win., More over we have to realize this guy will not debate in writing but what he wants is appear in public with 1000 Muslims looking at your face., And if you or your families are Muslims(even if you are not) you will have a problem..

    Zakir Naik vs William Campbell-Quran and Bible (pt 1 0f 10)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcKZnmBnQVE&feature=PlayList&p=6AF783757C87EE26&playnext_from=PL&index=0&playnext=1

    Please watch all 10 before you comment., You see it is easy for big mouth Muslims like Zakir to go against Christians., specially soft spoken Christian guys.  What they will do is hit with basic problem and  that is.,  Christ is neither Son of God nor God ., he is just messenger like Mr. Muhammad.   Right there A Christ follower/preacher  will have hard time and he/she will be defensive..

    I am glad Shoiab discussing the subject..

    with best regards
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: zulqarnain in Quran
     Reply #36 - April 18, 2010, 10:26 AM

    I haven't seen the discussion you talk about but sometimes in a debate you miss a point and only later you remember what you should have said.




    I agree. I think William Campbell became very defensive in later part of debate because his own religion was under attack. In such situation he might have forgotten to point out this mistake.



    The first time I looked closely at something Zakir Naik has said was in the video below. The claim Naik and others make is that one of the miracles of the Qur'an is that there are no grammatical errors. The guy in the video starts to point some out and Naiks reply is basically, "Grammar was built on the Qur'an comes from the Qur'an so it cannot have any mistakes"

    In other words there is no objective criterion for testing the grammar of the Qur'an.

    In which case one cannot claim the lack of mistakes to be a miracle, since this cannot be objectively tested!

    Kinda obvious, but Naik seems blissfully unaware that he is destroying the basis for this "miracle"  Roll Eyes



    yeh I think this is very illogical reply. I don't want to say that there are some Grammatical mistakes in Quran but if there are, this is very bad way to defend it. He also gave wrong analogy of ruler. If you compare ruler with conventional measurements and find it to differ then the ruler should be rejected as faulty. Secondly Arabic is not derived from Quran. Arabic existed long before the Quran. Overall he didn't give any answer. He committed red herring.
  • Re: zulqarnain in Quran
     Reply #37 - April 18, 2010, 11:30 AM

    I still want to know where this magog place is.
    I mean, these poor shmos have been trapped behind a giant wall for thousands of years, they are obviously in need of humanitarian aid.

    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: zulqarnain in Quran
     Reply #38 - April 18, 2010, 11:38 AM

    Quote
    I still want to know where this magog place is.
    I mean, these poor shmos have been trapped behind a giant wall for thousands of years, they are obviously in need of humanitarian aid.

    lol... hello Homer., They just imported in to Quran., originally they come from OT..

    Quote
    Gog and Magog (Hebrew: גּוֹג וּמָגוֹג‎; Arabic: يَأْجُوج وَمَأْجُوج‎) appear in the Book of Genesis, the Book of Ezekiel, the Book of Revelation, and the Qur'an. They are variously presented as men, supernatural beings (giants or demons), national groups, or lands. Gog and Magog occur widely in mythology and folklore.
    Quote
    In Islamic tradition
    A painting by Qasim, 16th century, illustrating the building of the wall

    Gog and Magog appear in Qur'an sura Al-Kahf (The Cave chapter), 18:83-98, as Yajuj and Majuj (Ya'jūj and Ma'jūj or يجوج و مجوج, in Arabic). Some Muslim scholars[who?] contend that the Gog in Ezekiel verse 38:2 should be read Yajuj (there is a maqaph (מקף) or hyphen immediately before Gog in the Hebrew version which in some printings looks like the Hebrew letter "yod" or "Y"[citation needed]). The verses state that Dhul-Qarnayn (the one with two horns[11] or Two Ages (one who impacts on two ages)) travelled the world in three directions, until he found a tribe threatened by Gog and Magog, who were of an "evil and destructive nature" and "caused great corruption on earth."[12] The people offered tribute in exchange for protection. Dhul-Qarnayn agreed to help them, but refused the tribute; he constructed a great wall that the hostile nations were unable to penetrate. They will be trapped there until doomsday, and their escape will be a sign of the end:
    “    But when Gog and Magog are let loose and they rush headlong down every height (or advantage). Then will the True Promise draw near - (Qur'an 21:96-97)    „

    The Qur'anic account of Dhul-Qarnayn follows very closely the "Gates of Alexander" story from the Alexander romance, a thoroughly embellished compilation of Alexander the Great's wars and adventures (see Alexander the Great in the Qur'an). Since the construction of a great iron gate to hold back a hostile northern people was attributed to Alexander many centuries before the time of Islamic Prophet Muhammad and the recording of the Qur'an, most historians consider Dhul-Qarnayn a reference to Alexander (see Alexander the Great in the Qur'an). However, some Muslim scholars reject this attribution, associating Dhul-Qarnayn with some other early ruler, usually Cyrus the Great, but also Darius the Great.  Gog and Magog are also mentioned in some of the hadith, or sayings of Muhammad, specifically the Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, revered by Muslims.

    Fourteenth century Muslim sojourner Ibn Battuta traveled to China on order of the Sultan of Delhi, Muhammad bin Tughluq, and encountered a large community of Muslim merchants in the city of Zaitun. He comments in his travel log that "Between it [the city] and the rampart of Yajuj and Majuj is sixty days' travel."  The translator of the travel log notes that Ibn Battuta confused the Great Wall of China with that supposedly built by Dhul-Qarnayn.  


    that is what wikis says http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gog_and_Magog  and that appears to be true..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: zulqarnain in Quran
     Reply #39 - April 18, 2010, 12:35 PM

    , More over we have to realize this guy will not debate in writing but what he wants is appear in public with 1000 Muslims looking at your face



    Dr zakir naik not only prefers public debates but also wants to debate unprofessional debaters like sri sri ravi shanker. His refusal to debate professional debaters like sam shamoun and Pandit Mahendra Pal Arya clearly shows that he is scared.



  • Re: zulqarnain in Quran
     Reply #40 - April 18, 2010, 12:36 PM

    18:86 According to Muhammad Asad:

    [And he marched westwards] till, when he came to the setting of the sun, it appeared to him that it was setting in a dark, turbid sea; and nearby he found a people [given to every kind of wrongdoing].
    We said: "O thou Two-Horned One! Thou mayest either cause [them] to suffer or treat them with kindness!"

    According to Muhammad Asad, his metaphorical explanation is based upon Razi and ibn kathir, and further backed up by the Qur'an commentary by Abu Ali Al-Jubba'i the famous Mutazilli scholar who died in 915/916 AD. Having read Muhammad Asad's translation cover to cover, God only knows why he just didn't come out and admit he was a Mutazillite given that his translation is probably the most blatantly obvious 'coming out' displays one could see. 'This Law of ours and other essays' pretty much the ultimate confirmation of his Mutazillite leanings if anyone wanted undeniable proof - I guess in his defence he was hoping to walk a tight rope of reforming but not being out of the mainstream whilst ignoring the fact that he was never part of the Muslim mainstream by a long shot.

    His use of appeared instead of found; maybe it was a deliberate choice given that his explanation is metaphorical and thus the use of appeared renders the meaning a lot easier than the use of found.

    I have nothing against maybe someone sitting at home read and studying a holy book but it dumbfounds me when I see this guru worshipping that comes out of south east asia - its almost like a hang over from hindu days that is now being practiced as Muslims with this almost unquestioned veneration of people like Zakir Naik and Deedat.

    Well, an easy way to kill that debate would be to say you're a Unitarian - it would shut down the debate pretty quickly.


    Muhammad Asad was a douche and a liar and, as such, his views on the matter may be freely discarded.

    Besides, Ibn Kathir's interpretation of the verse is pretty tenuous. He just asserts that since it doesn't make sense, it therefore must be metaphorical:

    "he followed a route until he reached the furthest point that could be reached in the direction of the sun's setting, which is the west of the earth. As for the idea of his reaching the place in the sky where the sun sets, this is something impossible"

    "(he found it setting in a spring of Hami'ah) meaning, he saw the sun as if it were setting in the ocean. This is something which everyone who goes to the coast can see: it looks as if the sun is setting into the sea but in fact it never leaves its path in which it is fixed. Hami'ah is, according to one of the two views, derived from the word Hama'ah, which means mud."

    It's interesting that he talks about it as if the sun appears to be setting in the sea, but the verses itself says that it set in a muddy spring.

    Since when does the ocean look like a puddle of mud?

  • Re: zulqarnain in Quran
     Reply #41 - April 18, 2010, 12:37 PM

    I still want to know where this magog place is.



    Nobody knows where this place is  
  • Re: zulqarnain in Quran
     Reply #42 - April 18, 2010, 12:39 PM

    Nobody knows where this place is  


    It probably doesn't exist. It's mythology.
  • Re: zulqarnain in Quran
     Reply #43 - April 18, 2010, 12:46 PM

    As tafseer Jalalyn says " والأرض بعد ذلك دحاها " بسطها وكانت مخلوقة قبل السماء من غير دحو

    "And the earth - after that - he daha it - meaning he spread it out and it was already created before the heavens but wasn't spread out yet.

    So I guess it was kinda like Blue Peter where they do a bit and leave the glue to dry - in the meantime they do another bit and then come back to the first bit later.  grin12

    ps - If Naik was right and it means he made it egg shaped then it must have been another shape before that - perhaps a hexagon  grin12


    Also interesting from Tafsir al-Jalalayn is the commentary on 88:20, which is:

    wa ila lardi kaifa sutihat

    "And the earth, how it was laid out flat?, and thus infer from this the power of God, exalted be He, and His Oneness? The commencing with the [mention of] camels is because they are closer in contact with it [the earth] than any other [animal]. As for His words sutihat, ‘laid out flat’, this on a literal reading suggests that the earth is flat, which is the opinion of most of the scholars of the [revealed] Law, and not a sphere as astronomers (ahl al-hay’a) have it, even if this [latter] does not contradict any of the pillars of the Law."

    It's funny that Naik claims the Bible says the earth is flat when so many Muslim scholars thought that the Qur'an said the same.
  • Re: zulqarnain in Quran
     Reply #44 - April 18, 2010, 12:47 PM

    It is now almost unanimously agreed by Islamic scholars that dhul qarnayn is not Alexander the great due to his bisexuality and other debauchery. But is it true That the account of him is almost certainly that of Alexander and most medieval scholars agreed it was Alexander?

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: zulqarnain in Quran
     Reply #45 - April 18, 2010, 01:00 PM

    Also interesting from Tafsir al-Jalalayn is the commentary on 88:20, which is:

    wa ila lardi kaifa sutihat

    "And the earth, how it was laid out flat?, and thus infer from this the power of God, exalted be He, and His Oneness? The commencing with the [mention of] camels is because they are closer in contact with it [the earth] than any other [animal]. As for His words sutihat, ‘laid out flat’, this on a literal reading suggests that the earth is flat, which is the opinion of most of the scholars of the [revealed] Law, and not a sphere as astronomers (ahl al-hay’a) have it, even if this [latter] does not contradict any of the pillars of the Law."

    It's funny that Naik claims the Bible says the earth is flat when so many Muslim scholars thought that the Qur'an said the same.


    What always gets me about all these claims that the Qur'an proves modern science is then why the hell didn't Muslims make all these scientific discoveries ages ago - how come they had to wait until modern western scholars discovered them before "discovering" that the Qur'an actually said that all along.  Roll Eyes
  • Re: zulqarnain in Quran
     Reply #46 - April 18, 2010, 01:28 PM

    It is now almost unanimously agreed by Islamic scholars that dhul qarnayn is not Alexander the great due to his bisexuality and other debauchery. But is it true That the account of him is almost certainly that of Alexander and most medieval scholars agreed it was Alexander?


    Without doubt the medieval scholars/tafseers say Thul-Qarnayn is is Alexandar.

    I have heard it said that the Qur'anic story follows the "Romance of Alexander" but since I'm not familiar with it I can't comment.
  • Re: zulqarnain in Quran
     Reply #47 - April 18, 2010, 01:34 PM

    I found this reference, here:

    http://www.lightshinesindarkness.com/sources_koran_2.htm

    The Romance of Alexander
     
                The story in Sura 18:83-97 about “Dhu’l-Qarneyn” is beyond all shadow of a doubt from the 6th century Christian legend, The Romance of Alexander. Because the passages are so long, I will not cite them here, but instead, I will list the literary parallels that prove that this Koranic story comes straight out of The Romance of Alexander:
     
    1.      Both characters travel so far west that they reach the place where the sun sets.
    2.      Both stories have the sun setting in or near a murky body of water.
    3.      Both the Romance and Muhammad in the Hadith on this Sura (Bukhari 6.326) have the sun going up into heaven and worshipping God.
    4.      Both characters then travel so far east that they reach the place where the sun rises.
    5.      Both narratives have the people who live near this place try to hide themselves so that they won’t be scorched by the rising sun.
    6.      Both characters then travel to a place where two great mountains separate an oppressed people from Gog and Magog.
    7.      Both stories have these people ask the characters to build a barrier so that the armies of Gog and Magog cannot pass through.
    8.     Both characters end up building a giant gate made of iron and copper which the armies of Gog and Magog could not pierce.
    9.     Both narratives say that God will open up the gate in the last days so that the armies of Gog and Magog will sally forth and meet their doom.
  • Re: zulqarnain in Quran
     Reply #48 - April 18, 2010, 01:42 PM

    Also this:

    How Alexander turned up in the Qur'an

    A magical scene from The Alexander Romance

    By the time of the Quran's composition there was widespread belief in a mythical Alexander, a pious follower of the one true god, who had built a wall in Asia to shut out Gog and Magog. This process had begun earlier, with Alexander's identification with Ammon and Plutarch's description of various miracles associated with Alexander's life and claim to divinity. Jewish writers likewise rewrote Alexander as one who sacrificed to Yaweh and was part of a divine plan against the Persians. In The Alexander Romance the horned Ammon is presented as Alexander's father and later the story of the building of the great wall was added to this romance. This story is evident in a sixth century Syrian text attributed to Jacob of Serugh, in which Alexander is a pious Christian commanded by God to build the wall. Later Arabic literature and art testifies to the popularity of this mythical Alexander, most notably Iskandarnamah, which makes Alexander a brother of Darius who visits the land of the fairies, the Zinj and the realm of Gog and Magog. It is from these traditions that Mohammed would have learned of Alexander.

    www.ancientnarrative.com/.../2002/notices.htm

    “Ask him about a man …."

    The earliest mention of Dhul-Qarnayn, outside the Qur'an, is found in the works of the earliest Muslim historian and hagiographer, Ibn Ishaq who reports that the story of Dhul-Qarnayn was revealed to Muhammad by God on account of some questions posed by the Jewish Rabbis residing in the city of Medina . Muhammad's tribe, the powerful Quraysh, were greatly concerned about their tribesman who had started claiming prophethood and wished to consult Jewish Rabbis about the matter. The Rabbis told the men to ask Muhammad three questions one of which was: “Ask him about a man who travelled a great deal and reached the east and the west of the earth. What was his story?”

    After fifteen days, Muhammad received the revelation that is Surah Al-Kahf ("the Cave"), the eighteenth chapter of the Qur'an. Another early Muslim historian. Ibn Hisham collected Ibn Ishaq's works and noted that "Dhu al-Qarnain is Alexander the Greek, the King of Persia and Greece, or the king of the east and the west, for because of this he was called Dhul-Qarnayn ('the two-horned one'). "

    http://www.davecullen.com/forum/index.php?topic=26820.1220;wap2
  • Re: zulqarnain in Quran
     Reply #49 - April 18, 2010, 01:47 PM

    And this about the origins of the horns legend:

    http://www.iranian.com/Quiz/2004/August/alex.html



    Alexander the Macedonian (the Great) is often referred to by middle-eastern historians and in literature as the “Zu al Gheraneyn” or mistakenly as “Zu al-Gharneyn”. Why is this?
    Suggested by Houman Younessi

    Answer: During his campaign in Egypt (B.C. 331) Alexander visited the temple of Amun on the border with today’s Libya. There he consulted the oracle of the temple and was told that he is the son of Amun and was destined to rule the world. Alexander therefore adopted the “persona” of his newly found heavenly father Amun (who is symbolized by a ram-headed human body; specifically a species known as Ovis aries platyra aegyptiaca, a curved horn ram and thus was referred to as the “Lord of the two horns”).

    Alexander had coins minted depicting him with two curved horns and also adopted the title of “Zeus-Amun; Lord of the two horns”. This latter term “of the two horns” or “possessor of the two horns” has been translated into Arabic as “Zu al-gheraneyn”.

    Many Islamic thinkers and intellectuals consider that the said Zul-Quarnain "the lord of two quarns (horns)" mentioned in Quran (The Zul-qarnain story was narrated in Quran by series of verses 18:83-98)is the Greek conqueror Alexander the great. The famous Quranic translator maulana A. Yousuf Ali gave a long story (titled: Who was Zulqarnain; page 760-765) detailing the facts and figures why most Islamic scholars including himself considered very strongly that, Quranic Zulqarnain was nobody but Alexander the Great.

    According to Maulana Yousuf Ali, Zul-Quarnain means "Lord of the two Qarns" (horn). And other meanings may be applicable as implying: (1) is a man or a great king; (2) Lord of East and West, Lord of wide territory or of two kingdoms; (3) Lord of two crests on his diadem, typifying two kingdoms , or rank superior to that of an ordinary king; (4) Lord of more than one Epoch "one whose power and influence extend far beyond his lifetime."

    But other sources believe this name refers to "Cyrus" the great, king of iran in 2500 years ago, the great savoir of Jews, which seems to be more exact.

    Some references
    About Zul-Qayrnoon, Muhammad Ali says (p586): {The word qarn means a horn, as also a generation or a century and dhul qarnain literally means the two-horned one, or one belonging to the two generations or two centures. The reference here seems to be to the two

    horned ram of Daniel's vision (dan. 8:3), which he interpreted as the Kindoms of Media and Persia, which were combined into a single kindom under one ruler, Cyrus, who is erroneousy called Darius in the Bible. The reference in Daniel's vision is, however, not to Cyrus but to Darius I Hystaspes (521-485 B.C.), "who allowed the Jews to rebuild their temple, and is reffered to in Ezra 4:5,24;5:5;6:1; Hag1:1;2:10;Zech 1;7, and probably in Neh 12:22. His liberality towards the Jews is in complete accord with what we know otherwise of his general policy in relgious matter towards the subject nations".
  • Re: zulqarnain in Quran
     Reply #50 - April 18, 2010, 02:48 PM

    I had a sneaky suspicion that the Qur'an was bullshit.

    Now I think it's pretty incontrovertible.

    I actually believed Naik when he said that the verse means 'it appeared to him.' I figured believing that the sun sets in a muddy pool is too retarded for even a 7th century Arab to believe.

    This surah does indeed appear to contain both scientific absurdity and pure mythology. Then again, it's hardly alone in that regard.
  • Re: zulqarnain in Quran
     Reply #51 - April 18, 2010, 03:11 PM

    Zebedee  says
    Quote
    I had a sneaky suspicion that the Qur'an was bullshit.

    Now I think it's pretty incontrovertible.

    .
    I said some where in FFI., whole Quran could be defined  by 3 statements., The meaning of all 114 chapters and  6236 verses fall in to one of the three categories  and they are

    1). Allah has no sons.. no wives and no partners..( that is to beat Christians)

    2). I am messenger those who follow me will get everything and go to heaven enjoy the houries on earth and houries in heavens
     (that is to brain wash the  supporters  of Muhammad and his Islam)

    3). Those rascals who questions me my Quran, my Allah given messengership and my Prophet Job., Hell to them, Kill them where ever you find.. Fry them in fire on earth and in heavens..( that is to terrorize those who question his, his actions and his preachings)

    THAT IS ALL WHAT THE SILLY QURAN IS., Every chapter in Quran is simply to reinforce those three points in to the brains of foolish people  who follow Islam/who came into Islam. Any one questions either from inside of Islam or out side of Islam.. KILL THEM..period..  That was in Past., Now that game doesn't work Zebedee ..


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: zulqarnain in Quran
     Reply #52 - April 18, 2010, 04:58 PM

    Zebedee  says .
    I said some where in FFI., whole Quran could be defined  by 3 statements., The meaning of all 114 chapters and  6236 verses fall in to one of the three categories  and they are

    1). Allah has no sons.. no wives and no partners..( that is to beat Christians)

    2). I am messenger those who follow me will get everything and go to heaven enjoy the houries on earth and houries in heavens
     (that is to brain wash the  supporters  of Muhammad and his Islam)

    3). Those rascals who questions me my Quran, my Allah given messengership and my Prophet Job., Hell to them, Kill them where ever you find.. Fry them in fire on earth and in heavens..( that is to terrorize those who question his, his actions and his preachings)

    THAT IS ALL WHAT THE SILLY QURAN IS., Every chapter in Quran is simply to reinforce those three points in to the brains of foolish people  who follow Islam/who came into Islam. Any one questions either from inside of Islam or out side of Islam.. KILL THEM..period..  That was in Past., Now that game doesn't work Zebedee ..




    And don't forget Allah's boasting about how he wiped out entire groups of people because they wouldn't do what they were told.



    [7:4]
    How many a city have We destroyed! So Our might came upon it at night or while they slept at noon.

    [7:5]
    And their only plea, when Our might came upon them, was to say, 'We were evildoers indeed'.

    [9:70]
    Has not the tidings of those before them reached them — the folk of Noah, and ‘ād, and Thamūd, and the folk of Abraham, and the dwellers of Midian, and the Deviant [cities]? Their messengers brought them clear proofs. God would never have wronged them, but they wronged themselves.

    [32:26]
    Or is it not an indication for them how many generations We destroyed before them amid whose dwellings they walk? Surely in that there are signs. Are they not able to hear?

    [36:31]
    Have they not seen, how many generations We have destroyed before them, [how] that they never return?

    [40:5]
    The people of Noah denied before them and [also] the factions, [who came] after them. And every community sought to seize their messenger, and they argued falsely [thinking] to rebut thereby the truth. Then I seized them; so how [fitting] was My punishment!

    [41:16]
    So We unleashed upon them a raging wind during [some] ill-fated days that We might make them taste the chastisement of disgrace in the life of this world; yet the chastisement of the Hereafter is indeed more disgraceful, and they will not be helped.

    [41:17]
    And as for Thamūd, We offered them guidance, but they preferred blindness to guidance. So the thunderbolt of the humiliating chastisement seized them on account of what they used to earn.

    [43:8]
    So We destroyed those who were mightier than them in prowess, and [already] there passed the example of the ancients.

    [44:37]
    Are they better, or the people of Tubba’ and those before them? We destroyed [them]; indeed they were criminals.

    [46:24]
    Then, when they saw it as a sudden cloud heading towards their valleys, they said, ‘This is a cloud that will bring us rain!’ Nay, but it is what you sought to hasten a hurricane containing a painful chastisement,

    [46:25]
    destroying everything by the command of its Lord. So they became such that nothing could be seen except their dwellings. Thu do We requite guilty folk.

    [47:13]
    And how many a town mightier in power than your town, which expelled you, have We destroyed, and they had none to help them.

    [50:36]
    And how many a generation We destroyed before them, who were mightier than these in prowess, and [who] then searched throughout the land [wondering]: is there any escape?

    [53:50]
    and that He destroyed former ‘ād

    [53:51]
    and Thamūd sparing not;

    [53:52]
    and the people of Noah before that; indeed they were more unjust and more insolent;

    [53:53]
    and the Deviant [cities] He overturned

    [54:18]
    ‘ād denied. How then were My chastisement and My warnings?

    [54:19]
    Indeed We unleashed upon them a clamorous wind on a day of prolonged ill fortune

    [67:17]
    Are you secure [in thinking] that He Who is in the heaven will not unleash upon you a squall of pebbles? But you will [soon] come to know the nature of My warning.

    [67:18]
    And verily those who were before them denied, then [see] how was My rebuttal!

    [69:5]
    As for Thamūd, they were destroyed by the [overwhelming] Roar.

    [69:6]
    And as for ‘ād, they were destroyed by a deafening violent wind.

    [77:16]
    Did We not destroy the ancients,

    [77:17]
    then made the latter folk follow them?

    Those are just a few.
  • Re: zulqarnain in Quran
     Reply #53 - April 18, 2010, 05:09 PM

    After fifteen days, Muhammad received the revelation that is Surah Al-Kahf


    I love that one about the cave. He was asked to answer and said he would give the answer the next day, why God cannot answer immediately is quite obvious, Muhammad needed to do some research.  But after two weeks he still didn't have the answer, he then claimed it was because he said "I will" and not "I will, God willing" and so God was punishing him for being presumptuous.  As a result to this day people say "Insha Allah" in just about every sentence they utter, even ones which are not statements of intent to perform some action.

    Amazing how his cop-out excuse has had such a large affect on the behaviour of so many people.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: zulqarnain in Quran
     Reply #54 - April 18, 2010, 10:43 PM

    yep surat al kahf is a very interesting chapter in the quran.
    When I read حتى أذا بلغ مغرب الشمس "when he reached the setting place of the sun..." I thought maybe this was just an idiom that means "he reached a very far-away place. So far, it's almost as impossible to reach as reaching the the setting place of the sun"
    .......but then I kept reading... وجدها تغرب في عين حمئة "...he found it setting on a spring of muddy (or boiling-hot) water..." sssssoooo, this is'nt an idiom? Maybe there's something else in the language that I don't understand.
    .......and then I kept reading... حتى إذا بلغ مطلع الشمس وجدها تطلع على قوم لم نجعل لهم من دونها سترا "When he reached the rising place of the sun, he found it rising on a people whom we [God] have not given them against it [the sun] a cover" what? this doesn't sound metaphorical at all, and no idiomd either. The sun never sets?? Where the hell did he go? The North Pole?

    I heard a lot of muslims (especially religion teachers at schools) say that Allah has made the wall impossible to find.......
    hmmmm maaaaybeee because it DOESN'T EXIST?Huh??

    I know someday you'll have a beautiful life, I know you'll be a star
    In somebody else's sky, but why, why, why
    Can't it be, can't it be mine

    https://twitter.com/AlharbiMoe
  • Re: zulqarnain in Quran
     Reply #55 - April 18, 2010, 10:45 PM

    I love that one about the cave. He was asked to answer and said he would give the answer the next day, why God cannot answer immediately is quite obvious, Muhammad needed to do some research.  But after two weeks he still didn't have the answer, he then claimed it was because he said "I will" and not "I will, God willing" and so God was punishing him for being presumptuous.  As a result to this day people say "Insha Allah" in just about every sentence they utter, even ones which are not statements of intent to perform some action.

    Amazing how his cop-out excuse has had such a large affect on the behaviour of so many people.

    Yeah, Mohammed just fails in the funniest ways! Have you read the hadith about how the prophet invited his friends over at his house during a wedding? They overstayed, and he didn't like that. He didn't want to sound like an asshole, so he let God do the talking for him, which is fuckin HI-LARIOUS!
    "Verily, such (behaviour) annoys the Prophet, and he is shy of (asking) you (to go), but Allah is not shy of (telling you) the truth"
    DURRRRRR!!!!!

    I know someday you'll have a beautiful life, I know you'll be a star
    In somebody else's sky, but why, why, why
    Can't it be, can't it be mine

    https://twitter.com/AlharbiMoe
  • Re: zulqarnain in Quran
     Reply #56 - April 19, 2010, 02:50 AM

    Yeah, Mohammed just fails in the funniest ways! Have you read the hadith about how the prophet invited his friends over at his house during a wedding? They overstayed, and he didn't like that. He didn't want to sound like an asshole, so he let God do the talking for him, which is fuckin HI-LARIOUS!
    "Verily, such (behaviour) annoys the Prophet, and he is shy of (asking) you (to go), but Allah is not shy of (telling you) the truth"
    DURRRRRR!!!!!


    Yes I always found that verse suspicious... lol
  • Re: zulqarnain in Quran
     Reply #57 - April 19, 2010, 02:59 AM

    yep surat al kahf is a very interesting chapter in the quran.
    When I read حتى أذا بلغ مغرب الشمس "when he reached the setting place of the sun..." I thought maybe this was just an idiom that means "he reached a very far-away place. So far, it's almost as impossible to reach as reaching the the setting place of the sun"
    .......but then I kept reading... وجدها تغرب في عين حمئة "...he found it setting on a spring of muddy (or boiling-hot) water..." sssssoooo, this is'nt an idiom? Maybe there's something else in the language that I don't understand.



    so حتى أذا بلغ مغرب الشمس is also an idiom which means that he reached very far away place. If this is the case then i think this verse can be taken as metaphor. I'm not sure about it but tell me If i'm wrong here.
  • Re: zulqarnain in Quran
     Reply #58 - April 19, 2010, 03:05 AM

    so حتى أذا بلغ مغرب الشمس is also an idiom which means that he reached very far away place. If this is the case then i think this verse can be taken as metaphor. I'm not sure about it but tell me If i'm wrong here.


    As I say, taking as a metaphor is what many Muslims do - I did - but the next words: "and he found it setting in a muddy spring" undermine this view.

    But as I said taking as a mataphor is your best bet.
  • Re: zulqarnain in Quran
     Reply #59 - April 19, 2010, 03:11 AM

    Hassan can you please explain in more detail why this verse can't be taken as metaphor.
  • Previous page 1 23 4 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »