Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
Yesterday at 06:41 AM

Lights on the way
by akay
April 27, 2024, 01:26 PM

New Britain
April 27, 2024, 08:42 AM

What's happened to the fo...
April 27, 2024, 08:30 AM

Qur'anic studies today
April 23, 2024, 02:50 AM

Do humans have needed kno...
April 20, 2024, 08:02 AM

Do humans have needed kno...
April 19, 2024, 12:17 AM

Iran launches drones
April 13, 2024, 05:56 PM

عيد مبارك للجميع! ^_^
by akay
April 12, 2024, 12:01 PM

Eid-Al-Fitr
by akay
April 12, 2024, 08:06 AM

Mock Them and Move on., ...
January 30, 2024, 05:44 AM

Pro Israel or Pro Palesti...
January 29, 2024, 08:53 AM

Theme Changer

 Topic: This idiot ruling that country 30 or so years.. he still talks rubbish

 (Read 10345 times)
  • Previous page 1 2« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: This idiot ruling that country 30 or so years.. he still talks rubbish
     Reply #30 - February 25, 2010, 11:36 PM

    Actually it is relevant, at least in terms of how the rest of the world sees Israel. I'm old enough to remember the Six Day War. I was young at the time so I don't remember it very well, but I do remember it.

    Now I realise that in the Muslim world, and particularly in Arab areas, that war is seen as embarrassing and not a good thing. The rest of the world was totally blown away by it and it got the Israelis some major_fucking_respect. Bear in mind that these were the guys who not so long before were meekly lining up to go the gas chamber. That was how people were used to seeing Jews: as people you could oppress and get away with it. In all honesty, that is how Muslims were used to seeing Jews. Don't believe all the peaches and cream stories about coexistence under Islam. It wasn't always like that. There are ore ways of discriminating against people than just gassing and burning them.

    So what happens is that all the surrounding countries decide to wipe Israel off the map. Does that sound familiar at all? Heard it anywhere recently, say in the last decade or so?

    At the time Israel was minute. Absolutely tiny. You could have fit it in your pocket and still had room for your wallet. The world expected them to be fucked over severely. I mean hey, they were only Jews in a tiny little excuse for a country, right? By the second day of that war people were taking an interest because Israel was still there. By the fourth day everyone was talking about it in amazement. By the seventh day it was all "Holy shit! Did you see that? Fucking way_to_go!"

    This is the thing people forget about the Israelis: if you tell them you want to wipe them off the face of the earth they will take you seriously. They don't joke about stuff like that, and on the basis of their history they have good reason not to. Expecting them to return to pre-67 borders while everyone around them is still calling for their extermination is just plain naive.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: This idiot ruling that country 30 or so years.. he still talks rubbish
     Reply #31 - February 26, 2010, 12:38 AM

    I appreciate your post osmanthus but you're talking about the current situation there while Q-Man and I were discussing the rightfulness of the establishment of Israel in 48.
    So yeah I basically agree with what you're saying. The Jewish people have gone through enough and Israeli Armed Forces are outstanding but again I don't see why it has to be this tiny land.

    In all honesty, that is how Muslims were used to seeing Jews. Don't believe all the peaches and cream stories about coexistence under Islam. It wasn't always like that. There are ore ways of discriminating against people than just gassing and burning them.

    Yeah but you have to be completely out of your mind if you're equating the two. At the time Jews were being put in gas chambers in Europe and many hotels in the US had "restricted" signs, at that time Iraq's finance minister was Jewish. As much as 12% of Baghdad's population was Jewish and they faced no systematic oppression. So how is it fair that the people who carried out all the oppression (the Europeans) get to get away with it and it's the Palestinians who have to pay?
  • Re: This idiot ruling that country 30 or so years.. he still talks rubbish
     Reply #32 - February 26, 2010, 12:51 AM

    Umm, well the mufti of Jerusalem was backing the Nazis during the war and I'm sure his opinion was not an isolated one. It wasn't just the Europeans doing all the oppression and there were instances of smaller scale massacres in other areas. There had been instances of such in Palestine itself before Israel was even thought of, which tends to get forgotten these days.

    At the time Israel was established there wasn't much in the way of Palestinian suffering (they were not really any worse off than the Jews there) and there was no real need for any more. The reason the Palestinians got the raw deal is twofold. First is that the Jews did not want a territory in Europe, which I agree would have been fairer in some ways. They wanted their ancestral home that they felt a connection with.

    Second reason is that the Egyptians, Jordanians and Syrians decided they wanted to wipe out Israel. Bear in mind that in those days there were no Palestinians as such. There were only Jordanians, Syrians and Egyptians. The "Palestinian people" are mainly Jordanian, Syrian and Egyptian citizens who were told to move by their governments in preparation for the destruction of Israel and then forsaken by their governments when the war didn't go they way they wanted it to go.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: This idiot ruling that country 30 or so years.. he still talks rubbish
     Reply #33 - February 26, 2010, 04:50 AM

    meh, I see what you mean about Israel.
    For myself, I kind of dont give a crap about the place, in that I dont 'support' anyone, if I was in charge of the world I'd probably just go all roman and sink stupid Jerusalem into a crater and tell everyone to grow the F up already.

    The whole argument over 'should it have been created' though I find pointless....because it already was over 60 years ago. On the one hand, a lot of Palestinian arabs got screwed. On the other, well between WW1 and the end of WW2 so did like....everyone (the Pontic Greeks, Assyrians, the Armenians, the Kurds.....and I'm still just on today's Turkey here). And its not like the Ottoman Empire was the only empire that was destroyed, hell if they didnt get into the Triple Entente and lose WW1 none of this would even be an issue...so there ya go.

    Ironically enough, one of the closest modern parallels to the creation of Israel is the recent creation of the Rep of Kosova.
    That probably is the most annoying (and stupid) thing about this conflict....how insanely ordinary it is. The big difference, apparently, is that it happens to take place in Crazy Land where god keeps his summer home, therefor, not only does it never end, but the whole world is sucked into it.  

    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: This idiot ruling that country 30 or so years.. he still talks rubbish
     Reply #34 - February 26, 2010, 04:59 AM

    But back to MoMo,
    I'm really serious about what I said before...Bring it on dudemiester. If you are going to run around yelling at people to go jihad, step up. You got a country and an army...what you waiting for...jihad away Muammar.
    C'mon...put your money where your mouth is.

    You can, and should call him out, you know he's all talk and hot air.
    Like he's going to declare war on NATO, spare us, as if he'd really want to invite the Marines back to Tripoli, He'd be hanging from a lamp post in a week.

    That's why he's a big bitch, and this should be pointed out.

    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: This idiot ruling that country 30 or so years.. he still talks rubbish
     Reply #35 - February 26, 2010, 05:30 AM

    ALLLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!


    *BOOM*

    I wonder why Libyans still keeps that idiot in power  Huh?
  • Re: This idiot ruling that country 30 or so years.. he still talks rubbish
     Reply #36 - February 26, 2010, 09:35 AM

    IA-- I completely understand where you're coming from. I always thought it would have been much more just to have carved out a Jewish homeland from Germany. And I think picking that area for religious purposes is pretty fuckin stupid.

    However...the Zionist project in Palestine was already well underway by the time WWII began. They had a significant number of settlements there, as well as trained and equipped guerrilla fighters. They also had a pledge from the British to give them a homeland there since 1917-- that the British reneged on that pledge until the Jews fought for it is irrelevant-- that pledge helped encourage commitment of the Zionist project to Palestine.

    Also, the Jews being both an ethnic/national group and a religious group it's rather difficult to separate religious reasons for wanting that piece of land from historical reasons-- it is arguably their ancestral homeland after all. Certainly there were plenty of secular and even atheist Zionists who favored Palestine for historical reasons.

    Finally, even if the offer of a part of Germany had been on the table after WWII, you could hardly blame the Jews for wanting to get as far away from Germany as they could at that point. But as it stands, a slice of Germany was never on the table, but a slice of British Mandate Palestine was.

    So while it might be nice to imagine if the Jews had been given part of Germany as a nation, and today the Palestinians would have their own country and the divisive and destabilizing issue of Israel in the Middle East would have never existed-- well, that just ain't the way it turned out ya know? For many reasons.

    I've actually had quite an evolution in my thinking on this. From first being a big supporter of Israel, to then being a huge critic who believed Israel's very establishment was illegitimate and the product of Western capitalist neocolonialism (I do still think that had/has a role AFTER Israel's establishment) and that the only solution was the creation of a single but binational Palestinian state.

    Nowadays-- I think the initial establishment of Israel was legit (even if there were illegit atrocities committed by the Israelis in the process, but isn't that the case in most national liberation/nation-building struggles?), but its actions afterwards were/are illegit. I support the Palestinians morally, but, in reality I'm so cynical of the situation there that I don't see any solution. In order for Israel to give the Palestinians freedom and justice (a real, viable state, not a glorified Bantustan), they would have to risk their own security, and they are understandably unwilling to do that. The only way that problem will ever be solved is if one party completely wipes out the other. Told ya I was cynical about it. A real sucky situation for everyone involved, but especially for the Palestinians.

    fuck you
  • Re: This idiot ruling that country 30 or so years.. he still talks rubbish
     Reply #37 - February 26, 2010, 09:43 AM

    Umm, well the mufti of Jerusalem was backing the Nazis during the war and I'm sure his opinion was not an isolated one.


    The Lehi (Stern Gang) also sought an alliance with Hitler, and arguably had a quasi-Fascist ideology. One of its members, Yitzahk Shamir, later became PM. The Irgun was pretty nasty too. So it's not like it was 100% Zionists good guys/Arab leadership bad guys.

    The history of that region from 1917 to 1947 is pretty complex and mostly involved the British fucking everyone involved over at some point.

    fuck you
  • Re: This idiot ruling that country 30 or so years.. he still talks rubbish
     Reply #38 - February 26, 2010, 09:52 AM

    Umm, well the mufti of Jerusalem was backing the Nazis during the war and I'm sure his opinion was not an isolated one.  

    Slightly (but not completely) unrelated but interesting nevertheless:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Handschar_%281st_Croatian%29

    I think the initial establishment of Israel was legit ...

    As legit as establishment of any other nation-state ever was. The problem of Israel is that its "founding violence" was committed at the time such things were no longer deemed permissible.
    Its "illegitimate origins" have not yet been repressed into the past. What the state of Israel confronts us with is merely the obliterated past of every state power. We are much more sensitive to this violence today because in the global world which legitimises itself with global morality, sovereign states are no longer exempt from moral judgements.
  • Re: This idiot ruling that country 30 or so years.. he still talks rubbish
     Reply #39 - February 26, 2010, 10:15 AM

    Quote from: osmanthus
    First is that the Jews did not want a territory in Europe, which I agree would have been fairer in some ways. They wanted their ancestral home that they felt a connection with.

    This is what pisses me. "Ancestral home" my ass. There were people living there, they had homes and businesses, you can't just move there, declare a war, and displace them just because this piece of land belonged to you thousands of years ago.

    Let me draw an analogy. What if, in the next 20 years, Mexicans started immigrating in huge numbers to California and then when they reached 50% of the population, they declared independence of the southern part of California because it historically belonged to Mexico. Then, and this is the crucial part, they gave Californians two choices, either become Mexican citizens and keep your homes or fuck off.
    Now if all that happened, would you support the Mexicans?


    Quote from: osmanthus
    Bear in mind that in those days there were no Palestinians as such. There were only Jordanians, Syrians and Egyptians. The "Palestinian people" are mainly Jordanian, Syrian and Egyptian citizens who were told to move by their governments in preparation for the destruction of Israel and then forsaken by their governments when the war didn't go they way they wanted it to go.

    What?  Huh?  then why was it called the "British Mandate of Palestine" ?
  • Re: This idiot ruling that country 30 or so years.. he still talks rubbish
     Reply #40 - February 26, 2010, 10:20 AM

    Let me draw an analogy. What if, in the next 20 years, Mexicans started immigrating in huge numbers to California and then when they reached 50% of the population, they declared independence of the southern part of California because it historically belonged to Mexico. Then, and this is the crucial part, they gave Californians two choices, either become Mexican citizens and keep your homes or fuck off.
    Now if all that happened, would you support the Mexicans?


    California was ceded by international treaty after the Mexican-American War. A better analogy would be Texas, which is still claimed by Mexico.

    fuck you
  • Re: This idiot ruling that country 30 or so years.. he still talks rubbish
     Reply #41 - February 26, 2010, 10:29 AM

    Let me draw an analogy. What if, in the next 20 years, Mexicans started immigrating in huge numbers to California and then when they reached 50% of the population, they declared independence of the southern part of California because it historically belonged to Mexico. Then, and this is the crucial part, they gave Californians two choices, either become Mexican citizens and keep your homes or fuck off.

    Lack of firepower on Mexican side in comparison to US firepower might be an issue tho.
  • Re: This idiot ruling that country 30 or so years.. he still talks rubbish
     Reply #42 - February 26, 2010, 10:32 AM

    Let me draw an analogy. What if, in the next 20 years, Mexicans started immigrating in huge numbers to California and then when they reached 50% of the population, they declared independence of the southern part of California because it historically belonged to Mexico. Then, and this is the crucial part, they gave Californians two choices, either become Mexican citizens and keep your homes or fuck off.
    Now if all that happened, would you support the Mexicans?

    Isn't that, on practical terms, how most countries came into existence?

    So, uhm, are you saying that there is a certain date in the past after which every redefinition of country borders was/is/will_be ethically wrong?
    And before which it was all legit?

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: This idiot ruling that country 30 or so years.. he still talks rubbish
     Reply #43 - February 26, 2010, 10:36 AM

    Also just realized the analogy doesn't work on another level-- the Mexican people are not stateless/nationless as the Jews were. The Mexicans already have their land. An analogy that might work is the American Indians resettling an area somewhere in the Americas already populated by non-Indians and declaring independence.

    fuck you
  • Re: This idiot ruling that country 30 or so years.. he still talks rubbish
     Reply #44 - February 26, 2010, 10:39 AM

    I've always thought that populations moving back and forth and then declaring new countries or conquering them or separating from them was at the basis of... basically all countries we have.

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: This idiot ruling that country 30 or so years.. he still talks rubbish
     Reply #45 - February 26, 2010, 10:43 AM

    Isn't that, on practical terms, how most countries came into existence?

    So, uhm, are you saying that there is a certain date in the past after which every redefinition of country borders was/is/will_be ethically wrong?
    And before which it was all legit?

    You and IA are actually both right.
    The problem with Israel is that its "founding violence" was committed at the time such things were no longer deemed permissible.
  • Re: This idiot ruling that country 30 or so years.. he still talks rubbish
     Reply #46 - February 26, 2010, 10:45 AM

    Quote from: Q-Man
    However...the Zionist project in Palestine was already well underway by the time WWII began. They had a significant number of settlements there, as well as trained and equipped guerrilla fighters. They also had a pledge from the British to give them a homeland there since 1917-- that the British reneged on that pledge until the Jews fought for it is irrelevant-- that pledge helped encourage commitment of the Zionist project to Palestine.

    And also we mustn't forget that the Jews legally purchased huge estates so they at that point they had as much entitlement to stay there as anybody. I would never deny that. The Jews had the right to fight to stay there. What's fucking unacceptable is kicking out thousands of Arabs. What's even more unacceptable is the displacements that took place in '67.
    Remember the overwhelming majority of the '48 refugees settled in Jordan and were granted citizenship. On the other hand the '67 refugees got fucked hard. I would never change my position on this point, which is the '67 refugees MUST be granted the right of return or at least some reasonable material compensation.


    Quote from: Q-Man
    In order for Israel to give the Palestinians freedom and justice (a real, viable state, not a glorified Bantustan), they would have to risk their own security, and they are understandably unwilling to do that. The only way that problem will ever be solved is if one party completely wipes out the other. Told ya I was cynical about it. A real sucky situation for everyone involved, but especially for the Palestinians.

    How about a demilitarized Palestinian state? or at least for a start why not stop building settlements and treating Arabs as subhumans? I mean it can't hurt !
  • Re: This idiot ruling that country 30 or so years.. he still talks rubbish
     Reply #47 - February 26, 2010, 10:56 AM

    Isn't that, on practical terms, how most countries came into existence?

    So, uhm, are you saying that there is a certain date in the past after which every redefinition of country borders was/is/will_be ethically wrong?
    And before which it was all legit?

    No I am not saying that. I am fine with redefining any country's borders as long as you don't oppress the people already living there.
    So establishing a Jewish State in '48 with guaranteed right for Arabs? I might live with that; giving the Arabs the choice of either fucking off and losing their homes or staying there and becoming citizens of a Jewish state? fuck no.


    Now let me finish by this Ben-Gurion quote:
    "Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country ... There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that? They may perhaps forget in one or two generations' time, but for the moment there is no chance. So it is simple: we have to stay strong and maintain a powerful army."
  • Re: This idiot ruling that country 30 or so years.. he still talks rubbish
     Reply #48 - February 26, 2010, 10:59 AM

    What's fucking unacceptable is kicking out thousands of Arabs.


    Of course, but there was no avoiding it. That's part of the nasty reality of building a nation.

    Quote
    What's even more unacceptable is the displacements that took place in '67.
    Remember the overwhelming majority of the '48 refugees settled in Jordan and were granted citizenship. On the other hand the '67 refugees got fucked hard. I would never change my position on this point, which is the '67 refugees MUST be granted the right of return or at least some reasonable material compensation.


    Oh, I don't disagree with any of that.

    Quote
    How about a demilitarized Palestinian state?


    A disarmed Palestine would not be truly independent or free, and would be at the mercy of Israel, Jordan, and Egypt-- and none of those countries have been too damn merciful in the past or present to the Palestinians. A glorified Bantustan. A demilitarized state may work in Costa Rica, but it won't work there.

    Quote
    or at least for a start why not stop building settlements and treating Arabs as subhumans? I mean it can't hurt !


    Hey, you're right.

    fuck you
  • Re: This idiot ruling that country 30 or so years.. he still talks rubbish
     Reply #49 - February 26, 2010, 11:15 AM

    Oops the thread is about Libya and i see  Palestine  all over.

    So let us read a bit of history of Libya and this Fool ruling that country for forty years..

    Going back to before 2000 years before  Christ Libya was a free man country, a country of  nomadic hunters and herders roamed   free savanna  to the present Sudan, and were suddenly    absorbed by the beauty of Berbers, so during 1st and 2nd century it was  berber country .. BerberElla country..lol., those people were indeed real  Free birds..

    Quote
    In 647 an army of 40,000 Arabs, led by ‘Abdu’llah ibn Sa‘ad, the foster-brother of Caliph Uthman ibn Affan, invaded western Libya. Tripoli was taken from the Byzantines, followed by Sufetula, a city 150 miles south of Carthage, where the Exarch Gregory  was killed. Gregory's successor, Gennadius, promised them an annual tribute of some 330,000 nomismata. Gennadius also sent the usual surplus of revenues over expenditures to Constantinople, but otherwise administered Africa as he liked. When Gennadius refused to pay the additional sums demanded from Constantinople, his own men overthrew him.

    Following the revolt, Gennadius fled to Damascus and asked for aid from Muawiyah, to whom he had paid tribute for years. The caliph sent a sizable force with Gennadius to invade Africa in 665. Even though the deposed exarch died after reaching Alexandria, the Arabs marched on. The Byzantines dispatched an army to reinforce Africa, but its commander Nicephorus the Patrician lost a battle with the Arabs and reembarked. Uqba ibn Nafi and Abu Muhajir al Dinar did much to promote Islam and in the following centuries most of the indigenous peoples converted.

    In 750 the Abbasid dynasty overthrew the Ummayad caliph and shifted the capital to Baghdad, with emirs retaining nominal control over the Libyan coast on behalf of the far-distant caliph. In 800 Caliph Harun ar-Rashid appointed Ibrahim ibn al-Aghlab as his governor. The Aghlabids dynasty effectively became independent of the Baghdad caliphs, who continued to retain spiritual authority. The Aghlabid emirs took their custodianship of Libya seriously, repairing Roman irrigation systems, restoring order and bringing a measure of prosperity to the region.

     So whole region became Islamic by the year 850

    until 15th century the Libyan coast had minimal central authority  but still under calipha rules from Baghdad.,

    1551   Ottomans  occupied   Tripoli  

    1711, Ahmed Karamanli, an Ottoman cavalry officer, seized power and founded the Karamanli dynasty, which would last 124 years.

     1801 Pasha Yusuf Karamanli demanded from the United States an increase in the tribute ($83,000) which that government had paid since 1796 for the protection of their commerce from piracy. The demand was refused, a United States of America naval force blockaded Tripoli, and a desultory war dragged on until 3 June 1805.

    1815, The Second Barbary War ( also known as the Algerine or Algerian War) was the second of two wars fought between the United States of America and the Ottoman Empire's North African regencies of Algiers, Tripoli, and Tunis, known collectively as the Barbary States.

    1911 Italy invaded  Libya and during that time   Ottoman Empire was collapsing.  It became Italian Colony from 1911–1947.

    1914,  both Cyrenaica and the Fezzan were home to rebellions led by the Senussis. 150,000 Italians settled in Libya.

    1920.,  the Italian government recognized Sheikh Sidi Idris the hereditary head of the nomadic Senussi, with wide authority in Kufra and other oases, as Emir of Cyrenaica

    1944, Idris returned from exile in Cairo but declined to resume permanent residence in Cyrenaica until the removal in 1947.  Under the terms of the 1947 peace treaty with the Allies, Italy relinquished all claims to Libya.

    1949:  On 21 November 1949 the UN General Assembly passed a resolution stating that Libya should become independent before 1 January 1952.

    1959:  The discovery of significant oil reserves in 1959 and the subsequent income from petroleum sales enabled what had been one of the world's poorest countries to become extremely wealthy

    1969:  On 1 September 1969 a small group of military officers led by then 28-year-old army officer Mu'ammar Abu Minyar al-Qadhafi staged a coup d'état against King Idris, who was exiled to Egypt. The new regime, headed by the Revolutionary Command Council  (RCC), abolished the monarchy and proclaimed the new Libyan Arab Republic.


    So 1970 is startting time of that young Mu'ammar Abu Minyar al-Qadhafi., That fellow became power hungry and a RASCAL in the next 30 years of his ISLAMIC RULE..

    and in 2010 This fool  says ATTACK Switzerland., Jihad in  Switzerland

    Scoundrel what the fuck  you did for 40 years??

    idiot
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: This idiot ruling that country 30 or so years.. he still talks rubbish
     Reply #50 - February 26, 2010, 07:44 PM

    This is what pisses me. "Ancestral home" my ass. There were people living there, they had homes and businesses, you can't just move there, declare a war, and displace them just because this piece of land belonged to you thousands of years ago.

    Yeah I know. It sucks.

    Quote
    What?  Huh?  then why was it called the "British Mandate of Palestine" ?

    Yes that was badly worded on my part. When I wrote that I was thinking of the expansion in '67, at which stage the British were long gone.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: This idiot ruling that country 30 or so years.. he still talks rubbish
     Reply #51 - February 26, 2010, 07:47 PM

    And also we mustn't forget that the Jews legally purchased huge estates so they at that point they had as much entitlement to stay there as anybody. I would never deny that. The Jews had the right to fight to stay there. What's fucking unacceptable is kicking out thousands of Arabs. What's even more unacceptable is the displacements that took place in '67.

    Remember the overwhelming majority of the '48 refugees settled in Jordan and were granted citizenship. On the other hand the '67 refugees got fucked hard. I would never change my position on this point, which is the '67 refugees MUST be granted the right of return or at least some reasonable material compensation.

    I agree it would be a good thing, but frankly it isn't going to happen in the foreseeable future.

    Quote
    How about a demilitarized Palestinian state? or at least for a start why not stop building settlements and treating Arabs as subhumans? I mean it can't hurt !

    Definitely agree about stopping the expansion of settlements. That policy is bloody ludicrous as well as being arguably totally unethical.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: This idiot ruling that country 30 or so years.. he still talks rubbish
     Reply #52 - February 26, 2010, 08:22 PM

    So establishing a Jewish State in '48 with guaranteed right for Arabs? I might live with that; giving the Arabs the choice of either fucking off and losing their homes or staying there and becoming citizens of a Jewish state? fuck no.

    And why not become citizen of a Jewish state, since it would be the state where you are supposedly going to live and where your taxes are supposed to go since you will supposedly use their services in the long run?

    idgi :\

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: This idiot ruling that country 30 or so years.. he still talks rubbish
     Reply #53 - February 26, 2010, 08:28 PM

    And why not become citizen of a Jewish state, since it would be the state where you are supposedly going to live and where your taxes are supposed to go since you will supposedly use their services in the long run?

    idgi :\

    What ? Huh?
  • Re: This idiot ruling that country 30 or so years.. he still talks rubbish
     Reply #54 - February 26, 2010, 08:36 PM

    What ? Huh?


    If country X is established out of nowhere and you happen to stand on its soil and country X asks you to become a citizen or GTFO... why not become a citizen?

    It makes sense that the old residents switch over to the new state or become aliens, that's how things have always worked...
    Plus, why be an alien in country X if you supposedly want to live there forever and contribute to its very existence?

    Now replace "country X" with Israel, Jewish state, whatever.

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: This idiot ruling that country 30 or so years.. he still talks rubbish
     Reply #55 - February 26, 2010, 08:59 PM

    if you supposedly want to live there forever and contribute to its very existence?

    Why would you suppose a Muslim Arab would want to live in a Jewish State and contribute to its existence? All they want is to keep their properties, businesses, and home. Why do you make them GTFO?

    The assertion that "that's how things have always worked" is not relevant to the rightfulness and morality of it.
  • Re: This idiot ruling that country 30 or so years.. he still talks rubbish
     Reply #56 - February 27, 2010, 06:02 AM

    I'll admit though that it was irresponsible of Switzerland to use the Schengen Agreement and get other countries involved.  Us being part of the agreement as well as being neighbours of Gaddafi may find ourselves quite badly affected.  Those of us who work in Libya currently cannot go earn their wages and have been turned back.

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: This idiot ruling that country 30 or so years.. he still talks rubbish
     Reply #57 - February 27, 2010, 06:52 AM

    Why would you suppose a Muslim Arab would want to live in a Jewish State and contribute to its existence? All they want is to keep their properties, businesses, and home. Why do you make them GTFO?

    The assertion that "that's how things have always worked" is not relevant to the rightfulness and morality of it.

    I am not supposing he would.
    I am asking why he wouldn't.

    If a new state suddenly exists in the land where a given person lives, what are the logical options available?

    • 1) he becomes a citizen of the new state
    • 2) he doesn't become a citizen of the new state and eventually moves elsewhere
    • 3) he doesn't become a citizen of the new state and continues living there:
      • a) he continues living there legally, and contributes to the state (paying taxes, doing his civil duty whatever it might be, etcetera), and gets whatever services in return
      • b) he continues living there illegally, doesn't contribute and doesn't get any state service in return (and is kicked out if caught)
      • c) he continues living there legally but gets a special permission not to contribute to the state in any way

    With #3a you are going to function and live exactly like #1, and you end up contributing to the state as much as a citizen, except you will not benefit from citizenship.
    So why not pick #1 over #3a?

    #3c is equivalent to not having the state exist for some people or some places within the state itself... which is rather illogical, because it basically renders the creation of the new state a useless thing (unless the new state was created for the lulz and not for uniting the land and the people into a representative entity)

    Maybe I have missed other options.
    If so, tell me what they are.

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: This idiot ruling that country 30 or so years.. he still talks rubbish
     Reply #58 - February 27, 2010, 10:28 AM

    Quote
    I am not supposing he would.
    I am asking why he wouldn't.

    Are you serious? you don't know why most Palestinians refused to become citizens of Israel in '48?

    How about the don't wanna be a citizen of the newly-created stated because of ideological differences? how about as Arab Muslims they don't wanna be a part of the Jewish State? how about they feel their land has been taken from them?
    And just so you know 3a and 3c weren't options.

    Now let me ask you. Why did the Irish revolt in 1919? they could've remained citizen of the UK? you know paying taxing and benefiting from services?

    I honestly don't believe you're being serious. Smiley
  • Re: This idiot ruling that country 30 or so years.. he still talks rubbish
     Reply #59 - March 12, 2010, 03:41 AM

    It isn't even funny. They guy's really an oddball. It's actually scary how a someone like him could even run a country. This is the same guy who thinks Obama is their Muslim Kenyan African brother. I can expect him to say any crazy stuff.
         Fool.. why don't you build some educational and industrial  institutes in Libya.

    building educational and industrial institutes? How about just getting the fuck out? That alone will take a lot of the load off Libya's back.

    I know someday you'll have a beautiful life, I know you'll be a star
    In somebody else's sky, but why, why, why
    Can't it be, can't it be mine

    https://twitter.com/AlharbiMoe
  • Previous page 1 2« Previous thread | Next thread »