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Theme Changer

 Topic: UAF VS EDL

 (Read 23820 times)
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  • Re: UAF VS EDL
     Reply #30 - March 07, 2010, 05:53 PM

    Culture is not static or uniform in any given place or time. I never quite understood why so many people fail to understand this basic historical reality. Persian architecture can easily spring up in England and be synthesized with English architecture. In fact if people took the attitude that Rationalizer espouses then this would never exist:

    (Clicky for piccy!)

    The above is called Indo-Persian architecture. It is a mixture of Indian and Persian architecture. A synthesis of different cultures has always historically been the spark of artistic creativity. There is no such thing as a pure or static culture. There are only dynamic cultures or DEAD cultures. A good example of a static and dead culture can be seen if you take a look at the Islamic world. Any healthy and vibrant society has a dynamic and open culture that is always taking and molding new concepts and styles into it's own. That's the beauty of western civilization in the modern era, it is essentially a globalized civilization that is constantly redefining itself.. not so different from the muslim civilization of the "golden age". If you put a full stop and say "this is english culture" without any room for change you are essentially killing the best part of western society.


    The above picture is a mixture. There is nothing wrong with taking different aspects of two architectural styles and mixing them together to make something pleasing.  However that is entirely different from simply transplanting the style from one country and planting it somewhere completely different.


    The block of flats in the background are an abomination, but so is the building in front of it.


    This is much better. Nobody said that Muslims must only pray in buildings of certain architectural designs, so more people should reuse existing buildings which match their surroundings.  This is what being a BRITISH Muslim is all about.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: UAF VS EDL
     Reply #31 - March 07, 2010, 05:57 PM

    Culture is not static or uniform in any given place or time. I never quite understood why so many people fail to understand this basic historical reality.
    A synthesis of different cultures has always historically been the spark of artistic creativity. There is no such thing as a pure or static culture. There are only dynamic cultures or DEAD cultures. A good example of a static and dead culture can be seen if you take a look at the Islamic world. Any healthy and vibrant society has a dynamic and open culture that is always taking and molding new concepts and styles into it's own. That's the beauty of western civilization in the modern era, it is essentially a globalized civilization that is constantly redefining itself.. not so different from the muslim civilization of the "golden age". If you put a full stop and say "this is english culture" without any room for change you are essentially killing the best part of western society.

    +1

    You know you are quite smart for a Canadian sasquatch.
  • Re: UAF VS EDL
     Reply #32 - March 07, 2010, 06:03 PM


    You seem very, very confused. You seem blissfully unaware of the contradiction, to the point of rendering almost meaningless your rhetoric, of what you say. It’s astonishing, really.

    One of the fundamental principles of British culture is freedom of worship. That is what defines us and makes us better than, say, Saudi Arabia, where there is no freedom of worship, or freedom of conscience.

    So when you come out with superficial statements about not wanting to see (very demonised) temples and Persian architecture ‘sprouting up’ (as if they are fungi), you are conflating ‘Britishness’ with an essentialised image from your own imagination (loaded with prejudice), and one that negates the intrinsic equality and tolerance that you had earlier been trumpeting as defining of Britishness.

    Where would you have people worshipping? In an underground bunker, so it doesn’t offend your intrinsically essentialised aesthetic of what Britishness means?

    This focus on ‘progressive culture’ it would seem is very superficial – you resemble the EDL in that volatile and unstable mixture of essentialism and defining yourself by the ‘progressive culture’ of modern British society.


    1: I see nothing with culture evolving, but I object to parts of it being replaced.
    2: People can worship in ANY building, such as the one I posted above.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: UAF VS EDL
     Reply #33 - March 07, 2010, 06:07 PM

    You seem very, very confused. You seem blissfully unaware of the contradiction, to the point of rendering almost meaningless your rhetoric, of what you say. It’s astonishing, really.


    So residential buildings must comply with planning regulations but it is okay for religions to bypass the same regulations?


    You seem very, very confused. You seem blissfully unaware of the contradiction, to the point of rendering almost
    One of the fundamental principles of British culture is freedom of worship.


    I said nothing about stopping people from praying to their imaginary friends.  I said that religions should be constrained by the same planning regulations as everything else.  You are making stuff up to argue against.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: UAF VS EDL
     Reply #34 - March 07, 2010, 06:14 PM


    The Rationalizer - you keep shifting and squirming. First of all, it is the assault upon the eternal, essential English identity that troubles you. But this is located not in the principles of change that have taken us to where we now are, based on equality, tolerance and so on. It is located in your essentialising of forms and buildings and objects. So then it is to do with planning regulations. Then it is an overstated, alarmist and scaremongering fear of 'parts of it being replaced'. I understand exactly what I am saying - I also understand what you are saying. The problem is, I don't think you are keeping up with what you are saying from post to post.





    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: UAF VS EDL
     Reply #35 - March 07, 2010, 06:23 PM

    The Rationalizer - you keep shifting and squirming. First of all, it is the assault upon the eternal, essential English identity that troubles you. But this is located not in the principles of change that have taken us to where we now are, based on equality, tolerance and so on. It is located in your essentialising of forms and buildings and objects. So then it is to do with planning regulations. Then it is an overstated, alarmist and scaremongering fear of 'parts of it being replaced'. I understand exactly what I am saying - I also understand what you are saying. The problem is, I don't think you are keeping up with what you are saying from post to post.


    I am unaware of a single contradiction.

    I have pointed out different things which make Britain British.  Social values, and the visual appearance.  I'm not scaring anyone at all, buildings are not intimidating, they are just out of place.  Buildings which fit the surrounding buildings don't stick out like a sore thumb. They are just too different and too close together.

    As for the social culture, that too I would not want to change. I don't want X people using one law and Y "sub culture" using another, one of the tenets of British culture is that we are all equal and should all be subject to the same law.  This also means that women should be allowed to leave their house without an escort just as men can.

    There are a lot of things which make Britain British.  Small variations (which become popular or unpopular) are fine as long as they do not contradict what is essentially the values of British culture.  I like what Britain is, and I don't want starkly contrasting culture transplanted into it any more than I want to see a McDonalds in front of the Taj Mahal.

    How that makes me a bad person I do not know.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: UAF VS EDL
     Reply #36 - March 07, 2010, 06:27 PM


    Quit the persecution complex TheRationalizer, nobody is saying it makes you a bad person, and of course you don't see a single contradiction there, that's what I just said. But you do have the same ad-mixture of passive - aggressive affront and pleading that all essentialists often display, there are remarkable similarities in logic, rhetoric and explanation.

    Quote
    As for the social culture, that too I would not want to change. I don't want X people using one law and Y "sub culture" using another, one of the tenets of British culture is that we are all equal and should all be subject to the same law.  This also means that women should be allowed to leave their house without an escort just as men can.


    No shit! Why didn't we think of that?




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: UAF VS EDL
     Reply #37 - March 07, 2010, 06:34 PM

    Quit the persecution complex TheRationalizer, nobody is saying it makes you a bad person, and of course you don't see a single contradiction there, that's what I just said. But you do have the same ad-mixture of passive - aggressive affront and pleading that all essentialists often display, there are remarkable similarities in logic, rhetoric and explanation.

    No shit! Why didn't we think of that?


    I don't have a persecution complex.  I state my opinion and you say I am wrong, you say I am confused and blissfully unaware of my contradictions (yet fail to point them out), and then there is this statement

    If humanity constantly insisted on preserving culture and "our way of life" we'd still be in fucking Africa.


    So now I am obviously ignorant and my desire to preserve the things about Britain which make it good would result in us all being "in fucking Africa" - so forgive me for sensing a tad of hostility to my statement, but I believe it WAS there.

    (Against Shariah) No shit! Why didn't we think of that?


    So why are you disagreeing with what I am saying? I seem to remember opening my statement with social morality.


    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: UAF VS EDL
     Reply #38 - March 07, 2010, 06:35 PM

    Correct.  My friend wanted a loft extension on his house, he couldn't because none of the other houses had them and it would look out of place.  So he opted for an extension on the side of his house, he had to pay extra for a certain type of bricks so that they matched the rest of his house.  The planning department insist on this in order to preserve the character of the area, and then someone builds a building with a massive onion on the roof.  It's out of place, and it looks shit.

     Cheesy

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: UAF VS EDL
     Reply #39 - March 07, 2010, 06:40 PM

    So why are you disagreeing with what I am saying? I seem to remember opening my statement with social morality.


    Cor blimey - did I just write about five posts explaining myself only to be asked to do so again?



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: UAF VS EDL
     Reply #40 - March 07, 2010, 06:41 PM

    I don't want to go to Spain and see England. I don't want to go to Morocco and see the USA.  I don't want to walk down the road outside my house and see Iraq. I love different cultures, they are a real pleasure to experience - but experiencing in them in their original context and seeing them grafted to another part of the world are two completely different things.

    So for example me being a wannabe Japanese anime-whore who hates Pork pies but loves sushi is actually underminign the cultural authenticity of this land, kawaii desu ne?
    Did I mention that I am also pro Euro and against monarchy?

    I want people in all countries to preserve their cultures, the diversity is beautiful.  What's wrong with that?

    It's deeply reactionary. As others have said successful cultures are not static. Hence trying to preserve one’s own culture is a contradiction in itself.

    "We are really worried for our future and we don’t want Africa to embrace an alien practice like homosexuality," said Maymuna Salim, a 26-year-old Muslim woman.

    "That can never be practiced in our society," insists John Njuguna, a 39-year-old Christian, told IOL.

    "What we are telling the westerners who are propagating immorality in our land is to respect our diversity of culture. We want to be true to our African culture."

    Right, so Christianity is authentically African?
  • Re: UAF VS EDL
     Reply #41 - March 07, 2010, 07:00 PM

    Written a long time ago by me but applicable to this thread

        
    Quote
    Naitivist Fears

    I have just finished reading Pat Buchanan's new book State of Emergency: The Third World Invasion and Conquest of America. If you haven't read it , don't.  I can sum it up. Instead of " the British are coming" , now its the third world is coming, so prepare.  His thesis is that over immigration from Latin America is destroying our great nation.  Never mind that most of the nation was and is formed by immigrants and one of the reasons many people think America is so great is because it draws people from around the world.  What Pat Bucannan sees as the end of America ie Immigrants , they themselves see America as a beginning.

    Pat doesn't limit his arguments to just illegal immigration too, he wants to keep out all immigrants ,legal and illegal, by limiting amnesty and asylum laws while limiting legal immigration to a few thousand a year, mostly spouses and children of people already here.

    He is especially vehement about Mexicans ( perhaps because of their feisty temperament Wink ).  He claims that they don't assimilate and their first loyalty is to Mexico later.  He claims that immigrants in the past turned their backs on their native lands and set out to be Americans. Instead he says, "we are witnessing the greatest invasion in history".

    In his attack on Mexico, he claims that Mexico has a sinister and elaborate scheme to orchestrate a reconquista ( a reconquering) of the Southwest, a territory that it lost in the U.S Mexican War.  What he is arguing is that Mexico will make this land grab when there are enough Mexicans living in the Southwest to take it by political force.

    That is ridiculo. Talk like this has been echoed by other nativists and shows that Pat and others do not know Mexico, Mexicans, or Mexican Americans.

    First Mexico, while bitter over the loss of its territories doesn't want to reclaim the Southwest. Why? Because why own when you can lease.  Currently Mexican workers in the United States send back $16 billion dollars in remittances.  That is the largest factor in Mexico's economy, larger than tourism and Mexico's oil business ventures.  Why risk money, time, lives, and reputation over something when the dinero in coming in?

    Second,  Mexican immigrants aren't exactly the most loyal foot soldiers for the Mexican government.  The reason most came to America in the first place was out of necessity and many of them resent coming north to search for jobs, while the politicos and the elites live comfortably down south.  These are the people who if sent home work more than likely lead a reconquista of Mexico.

    Lastly most of the millions of Mexican Americans exactly on speaking terms with Mother Mexico.  That is because many of the Mexican Americans living in America are a result of a desperate immigrants who was tired of the destitution and poverty that Mexico offered and found a better life in America.  And, after generations of assimilation and acculturation and Americanization, most Mexican Americans become, well, simply Americans with a Mexican twist.

    I hate to break this to nativists but American culture is way too big  to be brought down by immigrants.  Immigrants may change America ( for instance, more salsa is bought now than dip for chips), but America changes immigrants right back.  
    For instance, in a study published by the journal, Population and Development Review.  It found that while children of immigrants had no problem maintaining fluency, in the long run it was doomed.  By the third generation only 17 percent of Mexican immigrants speak Spanish fluently, and by the fourth generation, only 5 percent speak Spanish.  Learning English in the long run is easy for immigrants its maintaining Spanish that is hard.

    So in the end Pat's book is more of a fear of the outside, of what is coming.  He lacks the confidence in America to say that America is capable and assimilating new immigrants and that these new immigrants will come to love America as so many immigrants have before.  My ancestors are composed of Native Americans, Germans, and Englishman ( My last name is the county town of a county in England).  I love America and believe others can to.


    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: UAF VS EDL
     Reply #42 - March 07, 2010, 07:02 PM

    Muslims use the same "preserve" culture argument against secularism , free speech and women's rights. Preserving culture is often nothing more than a folksy way of saying you want to clamp down on free cultural and intellectual expression.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: UAF VS EDL
     Reply #43 - March 07, 2010, 07:04 PM

    Exactly!
  • Re: UAF VS EDL
     Reply #44 - March 07, 2010, 07:04 PM

    Oh and one more thing..

    Culture =/= Politics

    A society can remain exactly the same culture but dynamically shift between different political paradigms.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: UAF VS EDL
     Reply #45 - March 07, 2010, 09:48 PM

    When troops are dying for lack of Chinooks in afghanistan what the hell is one doing in Westminster?  (flys over around the 1 minute mark)

    Allah, The Beneficent, The Merciful, The Perpetually Pissed Off About Some Shit Or Other.
  • Re: UAF VS EDL
     Reply #46 - March 07, 2010, 11:26 PM

     It was bringing in EDL supporters who had arrived late.
  • Re: UAF VS EDL
     Reply #47 - March 07, 2010, 11:28 PM

    Ay yo TONY., Can I j0in da E-dee-EL???

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: UAF VS EDL
     Reply #48 - March 08, 2010, 12:10 AM

    They have a helicopter?

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: UAF VS EDL
     Reply #49 - March 09, 2010, 12:40 AM

    The thing about English culture is that it is difficult to see. Why is it difficult to see, because many aspects of English culture are all over the world, with it's roots here.

    Of course cultures grow and change and England always has but there are aspects of that culture that are not up for grabs, things like our monarchy, the days of the week, months of the year, our system of law, which dates back to King Alfred, over thousand years ago, threads of our culture stretch back even beyond Alfred to the Romans, how many of the threads which hold us together been broken, I would say quite a few.

    My feeling is that that the things that made us the greatest nation in the world are attached to these threads and the government and other forces are deliberately breaking these threads, destroying our sense of self worth as a nation, for example telling us that the empire was a bad thing, for example, telling us that we need to apologise for slavery, why, up until England declared slavery illegal it was a perfectly normal thing to do and every nation in the world since the beginning of time had slaves.

    As a nation we have given the world many things, take sport, football, baseball, rugby, cricket, tennis, great literary figures like Shakespeare, poets.
    Science and technology, chemistry.

    We led the way with a national health service, state education. The world we live in was created here, in England.
    We even have to apologise for the crusades for fear of upsetting muslims when the facts are that Europe was invaded by muslims right up to the gates of Paris.

    Our national heroes are not taught in our schools anymore, Alfred, Arthur, are not taught any more, so the continuity is lost. Our history is lost,  even things like the days of the week, how many of you guys can tell me what the days of the week mean, withour looking it up, there are many aspects of our history that are important.
    For example take our coinage, where has Boudicia gone. why is this icon of our history disappearing from our coinage, ask your self why these things are being taken away. To make this great nation into just another bit of land that anyone has the right to live here, an accident of birth.

    People,say things like, oh you are an immigrant, our fathers fought in world war two, you have no more right than me , the newcomer, I can come to your country and use your democracy, your benefit system, your NHS and as for your culture, that's shit and I'll change it and bring my culture here and use your freedoms  to destroy you from within.

    My families blood has stained the soil of England for every battle for a thousand years and maybe more and that gives us the right to demand that newcomers abide by the ethos, ethics and morals of this land and more to the point swear loyalty to and love this land of freedom and tolerance, if people cannot do this simple thing then they have no right to be here.

    Arthur.
  • Re: UAF VS EDL
     Reply #50 - March 09, 2010, 01:44 AM

    Showing your true colours, there.

    You racist fuckwit.

    Down with England, its racism, its monarchy, and its state! Freedom nourishes with the blood of British troops!

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: UAF VS EDL
     Reply #51 - March 09, 2010, 01:46 AM

    Also, for such a power nation, it really has invented fuck-all. Shakespeare, some sports... the rest it took... Arab science was (and arabic poetry remains) far superior to anything that existed in Britain.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: UAF VS EDL
     Reply #52 - March 09, 2010, 01:48 AM

    @arthur1
    WTF??!!??
  • Re: UAF VS EDL
     Reply #53 - March 09, 2010, 01:51 AM

    @arthur1
    WTF??!!??


    He's an english nationalist. Nothing mysterious...

    His allusion to 'other forces' - I bet he's an anti-semite too.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: UAF VS EDL
     Reply #54 - March 09, 2010, 01:53 AM

    The thing about English culture is that it is difficult to see. Why is it difficult to see, because many aspects of English culture are all over the world, with it's roots here.

    As a nation we have given the world many things, take sport, football, baseball, rugby, cricket, tennis, great literary figures like Shakespeare, poets.
    Science and technology, chemistry.

    We led the way with a national health service, state education. The world we live in was created here, in England.

    Agreed 100%. I would say that England/Britain was arguably the most consequential nation of the last 3 to 4 centuries. Especially when it comes to its contributions in the areas of law, government, industry, and science.


    My feeling is that that the things that made us the greatest nation in the world are attached to these threads and the government and other forces are deliberately breaking these threads, destroying our sense of self worth as a nation, for example telling us that the empire was a bad thing, for example, telling us that we need to apologise for slavery, why, up until England declared slavery illegal it was a perfectly normal thing to do and every nation in the world since the beginning of time had slaves.

    Well of course slavery was practiced by almost every nation and empire but it doesn't make it right. And when other nations don't apologize and you do, it only makes you all the more superior. It's called having the moral high ground.

    As for the empire being a bad thing, I have to disagree with you. It might have benefited the colonized nations in some ways but that doesn't necessarily make it justifiable. Invading nations by force, establishing military bases, controlling their trade, and economy and stripping their populations from the most basic of rights, self-determination, is always "bad" Arthur regardless of whether it actually benefited those nations.
    If somebody broke into my house and started ordering me around I wouldn't welcome them with open arms eve if they did some nice work in the garden or if they gave my kids a KitKat. Same thing with the Muslim invasion of Iberia. They did bring on scientific progress and great architecture but still doesn't make it the least but more right.


    To make this great nation into just another bit of land that anyone has the right to live here, an accident of birth.

    Jus soli was effectively abolished in the UK in 1983. A child born here doesn't automatically acquire British citizenship unless one of the parents is a citizen or have "settled" status. So it's not at all a mere accident.


    People,say things like, oh you are an immigrant, our fathers fought in world war two, you have no more right than me , the newcomer, I can come to your country and use your democracy, your benefit system, your NHS and as for your culture, that's shit and I'll change it and bring my culture here and use your freedoms  to destroy you from within.

    Well Arthur, as long as you distinguish between the "good" immigrants and the "bad" ones, I won't oppose preventing those who want to "destroy Britain from within" from coming here. I'm all for that.


    My families blood has stained the soil of England for every battle for a thousand years and maybe more and that gives us the right to demand that newcomers abide by the ethos, ethics and morals of this land and more to the point swear loyalty to and love this land of freedom and tolerance, if people cannot do this simple thing then they have no right to be here.

    Like I said, every people have the right to self-determination and one of the central elements of that right is maintaining your lifestyle, culture, and laws so I think it's appropriate that the English try to deny access to anyone who they* think will try to change or damage their lifestyle, culture, or laws. *By "they" I mean the majority of Brits.

    As for the blood stains and wars, do you personally know for sure that your descendants fought in wars as far back as a millennium ago?

    One more question Arthur, who do you think has more right to live in Britain, an anti-Semitic, homophobic, anti-Monarchist, anti-Democracy, pro-Fascism, 3rd generation British Paksitani, OR an anti-Semitic, homophobic, anti-Monarchist, anti-Democracy, pro-Fascism white Brit? and do you think either of them should be deported?
  • Re: UAF VS EDL
     Reply #55 - March 09, 2010, 01:55 AM

    I don't get it. What did he say that's exactly offensive?

    Has national pride become despised in the UK? I'm a brown 'paki' but I'll say that an Englishman has a lot to be proud of, whats wrong with that? And I can totally understand why some English might feel their identity and history is not being properly respected in their own country.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: UAF VS EDL
     Reply #56 - March 09, 2010, 01:58 AM

    anti-Monarchist


    What's wrong with being an anti-monarchist?

    The entire aristocracy are parasites. A pre-modern left-over who a large minority oppose. The monarchy, as for all decadent aspect of the British state, can be deposed as can the entire British imperialist capitalist-state itself be annihilated, which is all that it deserves.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: UAF VS EDL
     Reply #57 - March 09, 2010, 01:59 AM

    Also, for such a power nation, it really has invented fuck-all. Shakespeare, some sports... the rest it took... Arab science was (and arabic poetry remains) far superior to anything that existed in Britain.


    panoptic, I consider that statment to be racist, ignorant and bigoted.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: UAF VS EDL
     Reply #58 - March 09, 2010, 01:59 AM

    Not to mention totally wrong.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: UAF VS EDL
     Reply #59 - March 09, 2010, 02:00 AM

    I don't get it. What did he say that's exactly offensive?


    Not only is he a deluded racist fuckwit, he thinks the British empire was a good thing. The British empire is the most genocidal entity that has ever existed.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
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