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 Topic: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a

 (Read 30590 times)
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  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #90 - February 17, 2010, 01:14 PM
    @ TheRationalizer

    could you please provide a link to that forum where you posted your question and save us your brilliant analysis?

    Anyway, I just contacted an orthodox Jew myself and waiting for his reply.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #91 - February 17, 2010, 01:22 PM
    Quote from: TheRationalizer on February 17, 2010, 01:04 PM
    Quran 6:154
    "Again, We gave the Scripture unto Moses, complete for him who would do good, an explanation of all things, a guidance and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord."

    Am I correct in thinking that this means Allah gave Moses ALL of the laws, the COMPLETE set?  If that is the case then the Quran itself says that the Talmud in question cannot be an ordainment from God, because the Talmud was not written by Moses, and it came after Moses.

    I've just made it as far as Sura 7 in the Quran and this one jumped out at me!

    Tafsir Al Kathir comments:
    The revelation to Moses went into the details of people's lives, and thus
    served as a practical guide to the Jews and after them to the Christians. Admittedly
    the Message delivered by Christ dealt with general principles only and in no way
    with details.     The message of Islam as in the Qur'an is the next complete guide in
    point of time after that of Moses.


    So it seems I am right  Smiley


    Ibn Kathir! what a jewel of utter stupidity...

    the Quran itself mentions that Jesus said to the Israelites that one of the reasons he was sent is to make allowed for them what was once forbidden!  
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #92 - February 17, 2010, 01:23 PM
    Quote from: debunker on February 17, 2010, 01:22 PM
    Ibn Kathir! what a jewel of utter stupidity...

    the Quran itself mentions that Jesus said to the Israelites that one of the reasons he was sent is to make allowed for them what was once forbidden!  


    Mohammed is more like Moses than Jesus.

    Both in Islamic history.

    In Christian history.

    And in real history.
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #93 - February 17, 2010, 01:29 PM
    I'm not sure what you're saying.

    Muhammed, according to Islamic history, is indeed so much of a monster as the "Biblical" Moses.

    But "Biblical" Jesus was a total hippie, nothing like Biblical Moses or Islamic History Muhammed.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #94 - February 17, 2010, 01:42 PM
    Quote from: debunker on February 17, 2010, 01:14 PM
    @ TheRationalizer

    could you please provide a link to that forum where you posted your question and save us your brilliant analysis?

    Anyway, I just contacted an orthodox Jew myself and waiting for his reply.


    I didn't get this from a Jewish forum, I just read it today in the Quran. The discussion in the forum hasn't revealed anything of use at all except the dates that the Talmuds were created - it's gone right off topic, but here it is anyway:

    http://www.hashkafah.com/index.php?/topic/65220-oldest-physical-babylonian-talmud/

    Now, regarding Kathir, it is also what Yusuf Ali says (copy/pasted) - do you have any other Tafsir comments on this verse?

    The verse looks pretty clear to me.

    "Again, We gave the Scripture unto Moses, complete for him who would do good, an explanation of all things,"

    What is clear is that the Jerusalem Talmud (which also contains a very similar statement) was finalised a long time before Muhammad's birth so no accusation can be made that the jews copied the Quran.  Combined with this verse in the Quran it looks as though you can't fall back on the "Maybe god revealed it to them" argument either.

    However if you have other tafsir comments on this verse then I would like to see them.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #95 - February 17, 2010, 01:49 PM
    Quote
    What is clear is that the Jerusalem Talmud (which also contains a very similar statement) was finalised a long time before Muhammad's birth so no accusation can be made that the jews copied the Quran.  Combined with this verse in the Quran it looks as though you can't fall back on the "Maybe god revealed it to them" argument either.


    Dude! Of course the Jews did not copy from Quran! They copied from their own scripture! From the word of God that was given to Moses. God simply retold, in the Quran, the Law He given Moses.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #96 - February 17, 2010, 01:53 PM
    It's not in the Torah, it's in the Talmud which came a LONG time later.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #97 - February 17, 2010, 01:54 PM
    That Melech is an annoying tool. It's amazing you have that kind of patience TheRationalizer. I would have told him to STFU.
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #98 - February 17, 2010, 02:00 PM
    melech is a right cunt!
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #99 - February 17, 2010, 02:04 PM
    Melech confirmed the OBVIOUS.. the Rabbi was quoting God's words, aka *SCRIPTURE*.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #100 - February 17, 2010, 02:04 PM
    Thanks liberated that's actually the word I used in my head. Should have written it down.
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #101 - February 17, 2010, 02:07 PM
    what does "a *right* cunt" mean?
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #102 - February 17, 2010, 02:10 PM
    Quote from: debunker on February 17, 2010, 02:04 PM
    Melech confirmed the OBVIOUS.. the Rabbi was quoting God's words, aka *SCRIPTURE*.

    Not really, she just made other arguments like 'you can't prove a miracle' etc.

    Its obvious that the rabbi was making his own interpretion.
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #103 - February 17, 2010, 02:10 PM
    It's an expression. A British idiom.

    He's a right bastard that one.

    It means "really" or "very" I think.
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #104 - February 17, 2010, 02:16 PM
    Quote from: liberated on February 17, 2010, 02:10 PM
    Not really, she just made other arguments like 'you can't prove a miracle' etc.

    Its obvious that the rabbi was making his own interpretion.


    Did you read everything he wrote? Besides, why would he care to "hide" that the Rabbi was making his own interpretation...

    Let me copy what he said:

    Quote
    Why can't God have quoted the talmud directly to His prophet? Alternately, why can't God say anything that also happens to be in the Talmud without an assumption that God, or the person quoting God, is plagiarizing? After all, there's a working assumption that the rabbis of the talmud were revealing an oral tradition from God in the first place, so God isn't plagiarizing to His prophet, and neither is the prophet plagiarizing, rather God is repeating something He had said previously.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #105 - February 17, 2010, 02:18 PM
    So you are saying this Melech believes Mohammed is a Prophet? Sent from the same God he believes in? And he also said working assumption btw.
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #106 - February 17, 2010, 02:23 PM
    Of course not! He doesn't believe that Muhammed was a prophet. Melech simply believes that the words Muhammed claimed to be God's are indeed the words of his God.

    It's amazing how both Muslims and ex-Muslims are blinded with such great bias! The passage from the Talmud is clear on its own and when Melech confirmed the obvious, he was called a cunt!  What the hell?!!
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #107 - February 17, 2010, 02:50 PM
    He has a vested interest in believing it to be true.

    And it's not what I was reacting to. The overal feel of his post felt like he was arguing for the sake of arguing.

    Making points such as this one:

    "Again, one can't PROVE a miracle to be false any more than one can capture love in a box."

    Has this guy read Hume?
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #108 - February 17, 2010, 03:48 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on February 17, 2010, 02:10 PM
    It's an expression. A British idiom.

    He's a right bastard that one.

    It means "really" or "very" I think.

    +1
    Its a  north/northeast of England colloquialism.  Have you been to England before Liberated?
    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #109 - February 17, 2010, 04:00 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on February 17, 2010, 03:48 PM
    +1
    Its a  north/northeast of England colloquialism.  Have you been to England before Liberated?

     Cheesy No, But this expression is used in Australia too
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #110 - February 18, 2010, 03:16 AM
    Along with this sublime quote:

    "Which means that your 'gotcha' argument is as old as the koran itself.
    That's fairly common, where arguments by people against a religion have long ago been anticipated by much earlier followers of the religion. You're not discovering anything new."

    I mean seriously...

    Wisdom of this sage:

    "If you want to believe that a religion is true, you'll be able to do it, and if you want to believe that a religion is false, you'll be able to do it.

    I doubt, however, that it's so simple, that some guy in the 21st century on the Internet finally discovered the ultimate argument to debunk a religious text."
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #111 - February 18, 2010, 03:26 AM
    TheRationalizer is a genius, with a very weird hair style:

    No, the facts here are as follows

    1: The wording is very similar.
    2: The wording appears immediately after a verse about Caine and Abel, which is exactly where it appears in the source.
    3: Muhammad DID have access to this kind of information. Some of his companions were ex-Jews.

    Now if the Talmud claims the text is from God then it corroborates the Quran, but if the Talmud appears to have been a human's commentary on scripture then it does not corroborate the Quran and therefore it is a high probability that Muhammad plagiarised it and got it wrong.
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #112 - February 18, 2010, 03:45 AM
    How ever it might be that I don't this guy or his thought process. So I am quick to judge. If you are on this site, I do apologize.
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #113 - February 18, 2010, 05:22 AM
    Quote from: debunker on February 17, 2010, 02:04 PM
    Melech confirmed the OBVIOUS.. the Rabbi was quoting God's words, aka *SCRIPTURE*.


    EXCEPT
    1: The text infers the words by reading scripture
    2: The text came AFTER Moses
    3: The Quran says that Allah gave Moses a COMPLETE set of laws, so that rules out sending more laws after Moses died and before Muhammad was born.

    How do you justify number 3?
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #114 - February 18, 2010, 05:24 AM
    Quote from: debunker on February 17, 2010, 02:16 PM
    Did you read everything he wrote? Besides, why would he care to "hide" that the Rabbi was making his own interpretation...

    Let me copy what he said:



    He is anticipating Muslims' responses, and not stating a fact.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #115 - February 18, 2010, 05:25 AM
    Quote from: debunker on February 17, 2010, 02:23 PM
    He doesn't believe that Muhammed was a prophet. Melech simply believes that the words Muhammed claimed to be God's are indeed the words of his God.


    Oh, so you are saying that this person you are giving credibility to believes that Muhammad merely copied the text and it wasn't revealed to him by God?  Smiley
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #116 - February 18, 2010, 08:34 AM
    Quote from: BlackDog on February 18, 2010, 03:26 AM
    TheRationalizer is a genius, with a very weird hair style:

    No, the facts here are as follows

    1: The wording is very similar.
    2: The wording appears immediately after a verse about Caine and Abel, which is exactly where it appears in the source.
    3: Muhammad DID have access to this kind of information. Some of his companions were ex-Jews.

    Now if the Talmud claims the text is from God then it corroborates the Quran, but if the Talmud appears to have been a human's commentary on scripture then it does not corroborate the Quran and therefore it is a high probability that Muhammad plagiarised it and got it wrong.


    Right... so Abdullah Ibn Salam, after he converted, came to the prophet and told him: "here, O prophet... add this to the Quran so I can believe more in you... never mind that this is not from the scripture and only the opinion of a Rabbi, if you add it then you are indeed a prophet of God!"



    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #117 - February 18, 2010, 08:35 AM
    @ TheRationalizer

    you're a genius... I have been thoroughly refuted by you.. I don't have anything else to say to you.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #118 - February 18, 2010, 09:29 AM
    Quote from: debunker on February 18, 2010, 08:34 AM
    Right... so Abdullah Ibn Salam, after he converted, came to the prophet and told him: "here, O prophet... add this to the Quran so I can believe more in you... never mind that this is not from the scripture and only the opinion of a Rabbi, if you add it then you are indeed a prophet of God!"


    Nice straw man argument you mocked there!  I didn't say anyone told/asked him to add anything. I am saying that if you hang around with religious Jews it isn't hard to find out about Judaism.  However if even one of them switches between Torah/Talmud it is very easy for the person listening (Muhammad) to get something mixed up.

    I'm sorry, but this really isn't looking good for Muhammad at the moment.  I have a friend in Israel who's brother is an orthodox Jew, he's going to ask him to contact me so that I can discuss the Judaism part of this phrase with him.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #119 - February 18, 2010, 09:32 AM
    Awsome TheRationalizer. Keep us posted.
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