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 Topic: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a

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  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #60 - February 16, 2010, 05:45 PM
    Quote
    You are missing the point. GOD did not say those words.  We know who said those words, it was a Rabbi commenting on the Torah.  A HUMAN.



    Lol... you're so cute! so you really believe this is the opinion of the Rabbi!! Cheesy

    Not all of the Talmud is opinions of the Rabbis... read again:

    Quote
    Oral Torah: The Talmud
    In addition to the written scriptures we have an "Oral Torah," a tradition explaining what the above scriptures mean and how to interpret them and apply the Laws. Orthodox Jews believe G-d taught the Oral Torah to Moses, and he taught it to others, down to the present day.

     
    http://www.jewfaq.org/torah.htm

    Dear, don't just believe anything you read from the internet. Speaking of plagiarism, did you plagiarize your topic from this page? Cheesy
    http://islamicide.com/id42.html
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #61 - February 16, 2010, 05:52 PM
    Try reading more....

    THERE ARE MANY RULING POWERS IN HEAVEN; AGAIN, TO PROCLAIM THE GREATNESS OF THE HOLY ONE, BLESSED BE HE: FOR IF A MAN STRIKES MANY COINS FROM ONE MOULD, THEY ALL RESEMBLE ONE ANOTHER, BUT THE SUPREME KING OF KINGS,42  THE HOLY ONE, BLESSED BE HE, FASHIONED EVERY MAN IN THE STAMP OP THE FIRST MAN, AND YET NOT ONE OF THEM RESEMBLES HIS FELLOW. THEREFORE EVERY SINGLE PERSON IS OBLIGED TO SAY: THE WORLD WAS CREATED FOR MY SAKE.

    Note it says "Blessed be HE" not "Blessed be us".

    Is this how Allah talks? If so then the Quran is wrong!
    This is a Rabbi commenting on the story of Caine and Abel. Believing it is revelation from God is quite frankly bollocks  Cheesy

    How did I know you were going to go for the "God revealed it to them" bullshit route, hahahaha!  Priceless!

    Believe despite the evidence, go on!
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #62 - February 16, 2010, 05:56 PM
    Quote
    How did I know you were going to go for the "God revealed it to them" bullshit route, hahahaha!  Priceless!


    Hey kid, how about an online reference to the Talmud page you're quoting from? We don't need your superior reasoning skills which don't seem to go beyond plagiarizim, anyway.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #63 - February 16, 2010, 05:57 PM
    Quote from: TheRationalizer on February 16, 2010, 05:36 PM
    But don't let it waver you in your faith.  Faith is not only the act of believing in something without evidence, if you REALLY have faith you will even believe in stuff DESPITE the evidence!

    Holy shit, could something be more obvious?

    Amen brother, Couldn't have said it better myself
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #64 - February 16, 2010, 05:58 PM
    For example, read 51a

    ===
    from, this phrase I know the law only if she was married to a priest;1  but if she was married to a Levite, Israelite, heathen,2  a profaned person,3 bastard,4  or a Nathin,5  whence do we know that the same applies? From the verse: And the daughter of a man who is a priest, which teaches that even if she is married to one who is not a priest the same applies
    ===

    This is a Rabbi reading scripture and trying to decide what laws apply to certain situations. He would not say "I know the law only if...." if it were coming from God, God would TELL him what he needed to know.  Clearly this is not the case, the person DOES NOT KNOW concisely in this situation and is basing his decision on yet another.

    God would not say that he knows the law only in a certain situation, God would know ALL of the law!
    http://www.israelect.com/Come-and-Hear/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_51.html

    Top of the page.

    Can't touch this  dance

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #65 - February 16, 2010, 06:00 PM
    Quote from: debunker on February 16, 2010, 05:56 PM
    Hey kid, how about an online reference to the Talmud page you're quoting from? We don't need your superior reasoning skills which don't seem to go beyond plagiarizim, anyway.


    IF I am plagiarising I have no shame for two reasons
    1: At no point did I claim I discovered this, nor concealed that it was passed to me.
    2: At no point did I claim the creator of the universe was revealing stuff to me, when in reality I was ripping off what locals had taught me  Cheesy

    Now I am off to bed.

    Maa Salama!
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #66 - February 16, 2010, 06:07 PM
    Unbelievable!!!

    Give me the actual Talmud page where you got this from:

    Quote
    And also Jerusalem Talmud, Sanhedrin 4:1 (22a)
    "Whoever destroys a soul, it is considered as if he destroyed an entire world. And whoever saves a life, it is considered as if he saved an entire world."


    How can we know if the Rabbi who wrote this is NOT actually QUOTING an Oral Torah (aka Talmud) that was taught by God to Moses? Remember the definition of the Talmud I shown you in the Jewish link? Pfffft!
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #67 - February 16, 2010, 06:13 PM
    Quote from: debunker on February 16, 2010, 06:07 PM
    Unbelievable!!!

    Give me the actual Talmud page where you got this from:

    How can we know if the Rabbi who wrote this is NOT actually QUOTING an Oral Torah (aka Talmud) that was taught by God to Moses? Remember the definition of the Torah I shown you in the Jewish link? Pfffft!


    But this poses a problem Debunker. Because if your claim is true, that this was an oral law passed on to Moses. Yet all the other oral laws were corrupted? Along with the Torah? But the ones that you need to be valid, are valid?
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #68 - February 16, 2010, 06:19 PM
    But BD,

    TheRationalizer's claim is that this passage, according to Jewish sources, is NOT based on God's revelation to Moses, but only an opinion of a Rabbi... that's why I want the Talmud page to see if the Rabbi is actually quoting some other passage or is giving his opinion...

    As to what is corrupted and what is not, that's a whole different discussion.

    Anyway, I'm not sure I read this dude correctly, but is he mixing up verses in the Quran with Tafsir and Tlamud? ... because the verses in Surah 5 regarding this start with 5:30.

    005.030
    Then his mind facilitated to him the slaying of his brother so he slew him; then he became one of the losers

    005.031
     Then God sent a crow digging up the earth so that he might show him how he should cover the dead body of his brother. He said: Woe me! do I lack the strength that I should be like this crow and cover the dead body of my brother? So he became of those who regret.

    005.032
     For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our messengers came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #69 - February 16, 2010, 06:21 PM
    @Debunker, you're missing what BD is saying. You're saying that the reason both quran and the talmud commentary contains that verse is because its god's word in both Torah/talmud and the quran. But you reject all the rest of the torah because its corrupted, yet claim the ones you need to be valid to be valid?


    Funny!
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #70 - February 16, 2010, 06:26 PM
    @ BD

    I just rechecked what our genuius friend here has written
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8760.msg218662#msg218662

    Quote
    Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 37a
    "Whoever destroys a soul from Israel, the Scripture considers it as if he destroyed an entire world. And whoever saves a life from Israel, the Scripture considers it as if he saved an entire world."


    See?!!! It already says, "THE *SCRIPTURE* CONSIDERS IT" .. What else does this genius want?

    Unbelieavable!
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #71 - February 16, 2010, 06:28 PM
    Quote from: liberated on February 16, 2010, 06:21 PM
    @Debunker, you're missing what BD is saying. You're saying that the reason both quran and the talmud commentary contains that verse is because its god's word in both Torah/talmud and the quran. But you reject all the rest of the torah because its corrupted, yet claim the ones you need to be valid to be valid?


    Funny!


    I never claimed that ALL the Torah/Talmud is corrupted except for the bit about killing an innocent soul.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #72 - February 16, 2010, 06:31 PM
    Quote from: debunker on February 16, 2010, 06:26 PM
    @ BD

    I just rechecked what our genuius friend here has written
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8760.msg218662#msg218662

    See?!!! It already says, "THE *SCRIPTURE* CONSIDERS IT" .. What else does this genius want?

    Unbelieavable!


    I need to read the entire source, both the Talmudic one and the Torah verse. TheRationalizer is this possible?
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #73 - February 16, 2010, 06:33 PM
    http://www.israelect.com/Come-and-Hear/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_37.html

    http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Parallelism:_Sanhedrin_37a
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #74 - February 16, 2010, 06:33 PM
    Quote
    I need to read the entire source, both the Talmudic one and the Torah verse. TheRationalizer is this possible?

     

    Well, he ALREADY provided another Talmudic passage which CLEARLY refers to the *SCRIPTURE*:

    Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 37a
    "Whoever destroys a soul from Israel, the Scripture considers it as if he destroyed an entire world. And whoever saves a life from Israel, the Scripture considers it as if he saved an entire world."
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #75 - February 16, 2010, 06:35 PM
    Quote from: debunker on February 16, 2010, 06:28 PM
    I never claimed that ALL the Torah/Talmud is corrupted except for the bit about killing an innocent soul.

    Yep, the parts of Torah which suit your purposes are uncorrupted while the rest are corrupted.  Thinking hard
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #76 - February 16, 2010, 06:37 PM
    Quote from: debunker on February 16, 2010, 06:33 PM


    Well, he ALREADY provided another Talmudic passage which CLEARLY refers to the *SCRIPTURE*:

    Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 37a
    "Whoever destroys a soul from Israel, the Scripture considers it as if he destroyed an entire world. And whoever saves a life from Israel, the Scripture considers it as if he saved an entire world."

    Its quite possible that the rabbi is giving his own interpretation of the scripture.
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #77 - February 16, 2010, 07:02 PM
    This is from he link provided by BD:

    Quote
    FOR THUS WE FIND IN THE CASE OF CAIN, WHO KILLED HIS BROTHER, THAT IT IS WRITTEN: THE BLOODS OF THY BROTHER CRY UNTO ME:37  NOT THE BLOOD OF THY BROTHER, BUT THE BLOODS OF THY BROTHER, IS SAID — i.e., HIS BLOOD AND THE BLOOD OF HIS [POTENTIAL] DESCENDANTS. (ALTERNATIVELY, THE BLOODS OF THY BROTHER, TEACHES THAT HIS BLOOD WAS SPLASHED OVER TREES AND STONES.)38  FOR THIS REASON WAS MAN CREATED ALONE, TO TEACH THEE THAT WHOSOEVER DESTROYS A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL,39  SCRIPTURE IMPUTES [GUILT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD DESTROYED A COMPLETE WORLD; AND WHOSOEVER PRESERVES A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE ASCRIBES [MERIT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD PRESERVED A COMPLETE WORLD.40 

     

    So sccording to the Rabbi it was *WRITTEN* that after Cain killed his brother, it was ordained upon Israel, according to *SCRIPTURE* that whomever killed a man, etc...

    It's all there! The Rabbi is quoting *SCRIPTURE*... is this in the current Bible? No. So what version of the *SCRIPTURE* was the Rabbi referring to? We don't know.. like I said there are 4 sources of the current Torah.

    When was the Babylonian Talmud written?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud#Talmud_Bavli_.28Babylonian_Talmud.29
    Quote
    Talmud Bavli (Babylonian Talmud)

    The Talmud Bavli was transmitted orally for centuries prior to its compilation by Jewish scholars in Babylon about the 5th century CE.[6]



    So the Babylonian Talmud was written 500 years before the birth of Jesus, and before it was written it was transmitted orally for *CENTURIES*.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #78 - February 16, 2010, 07:06 PM
    @ BD

    The writers at Wikiislam don't stop at Hadiths and history books like Tabari, etc, they go on to fabricate laughable claims like this one:
    http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Parallelism:_Sanhedrin_37a

    OBVIOUSLY, the Rabbi IS quoting *scripture*...

    EDIT: It's like lying missionaries claiming that the story of Solomon in the Quran was stolen from Jewish bed time stories and I shown you evidence from Kabbalah and Midrash (Jewish religious sources) where far weirder claims about Solomon were made... don't believe a word told by missionaries until you verify them yourself (the same can be said about Dawagandists criticizing the Bible).
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #79 - February 17, 2010, 04:17 AM
    Quote from: debunker on February 16, 2010, 06:07 PM
    Give me the actual Talmud page where you got this from:

    http://www.israelect.com/Come-and-Hear/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_37.html

    Same site, you just needed to click "Directory" at the top of the page.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #80 - February 17, 2010, 04:31 AM
    Quote from: debunker on February 16, 2010, 07:02 PM
    When was the Babylonian Talmud written?


    haha, I wondered how long it would take for you to go down the route "The Jews added it after" route, you are so predictable it's great!

    http://www.israelect.com/Come-and-Hear/sanhedrin/index.html#intro
    "according to tradition, were instituted by Moses, but the first date at which a Sanhedrin is mentioned as actually functioning is 57 B.C.E"
    "When the Mishnah was compiled, towards the end of the second century CE., the Sanhedrin was already a thing of the more or less distant past"

    Hundreds of years before Muhammad was even born!

    "UNDER THE EDITORSHIP OF RABBI DR I. EPSTEIN B.A., Ph.D., D. Lit." - It has some credibility  Smiley


    I must confess though, you have gone down the "Maybe it was revealed by God" route, and now down the "Maybe it was written afterwards" route, I am struggling what mental acrobatics you are going to perform next in order to make your alternate reality work in your head.

    Time travel.....No, too far fetched even in these circumstances  Cheesy


    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #81 - February 17, 2010, 04:40 AM
    TheRationalizer did you get a response from Jewish forum? I have questions of my own Cheesy
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #82 - February 17, 2010, 04:44 AM
    Quote from: debunker on February 16, 2010, 07:06 PM
    OBVIOUSLY, the Rabbi IS quoting *scripture*...


    And making HIS ruling based on scripture, therefore human words, therefore Muhammad authored the Quran!


    Quote
    EDIT: It's like lying missionaries claiming that the story of Solomon in the Quran was stolen from Jewish bed time stories and I shown you evidence from Kabbalah and Midrash (Jewish religious sources) where far weirder claims about Solomon were made... don't believe a word told by missionaries until you verify them yourself (the same can be said about Dawagandists criticizing the Bible).


    Not relevant to this subject, it will merely act as a distraction so should be dropped.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #83 - February 17, 2010, 04:44 AM
    Quote from: BlackDog on February 17, 2010, 04:40 AM
    TheRationalizer did you get a response from Jewish forum? I have questions of my own Cheesy


    Approved this morning, just posted my question.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #84 - February 17, 2010, 04:51 AM
    Can you also ask about your OP? I think what Debunker means by scripture is that its an official scripture, the scripture was handed down from the oral laws given to Moses.

    I know too little about Jewish religion to even comment on this.

    But what is the meaning of scripture in that sentence? Why is he emphasising the word scripture so much?
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #85 - February 17, 2010, 04:57 AM
    "I think what Debunker means by scripture is that its an official scripture, the scripture was handed down from the oral laws given to Moses. "

    It could have come from god himself, it would be irrelevant, simply because the SAME SENTENCE states that the person authoring the statement is deriving it from scripture. Would god need to read scripture in order to make such a statement? SCRIPTURE IMPUTES - whoever is writing this is crediting scripture as the source of the facts required in order to ascertain the implication that you kill the person and their descendants...

    NOT THE BLOOD OF THY BROTHER, BUT THE BLOODS OF THY BROTHER, IS SAID — i.e., HIS BLOOD AND THE BLOOD OF HIS [POTENTIAL] DESCENDANT 38  FOR THIS REASON WAS MAN CREATED ALONE, TO TEACH THEE THAT WHOSOEVER DESTROYS A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL,39  SCRIPTURE IMPUTES [GUILT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD DESTROYED A COMPLETE WORLD; AND WHOSOEVER PRESERVES A SINGLE SOUL OF ISRAEL, SCRIPTURE ASCRIBES [MERIT] TO HIM AS THOUGH HE HAD PRESERVED A COMPLETE WORLD.

    It is clear. Based on the plural BLOODS, the scripture therefore means (plagiarized bit).

    Finally, if this were from scripture then it would ALSO have to have been corrupted, because there is no mention of "mischief in the land".
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #86 - February 17, 2010, 05:53 AM
    I have to say you make a strong point TheRationalizer. It really looks like commentary of a Rabbi. A beautiful commentary but a human one nonetheless.
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #87 - February 17, 2010, 07:14 AM
    To make it clear this is not in the Torah at all? This whom so ever kills etc etc? It refers to Abel and Cain?
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #88 - February 17, 2010, 07:52 AM
    The Caine and Abel story is in the Torah.

    The Talmud are like legal case studies.  A group of Rabbi/Judges define punishments for certain crimes based on what they read in the Torah.  Some Jews claim that God revealed these rulings to the Rabbis, but I think the wording clearly shows that humans were extrapolating from scripture.

    The "Slew all the people" verses are in the Talmud.

    The Babylonian Talmud was apparently not finalised until 634CE when the Muslims invaded, so it would be easy for some ignoramus to claim that the Talmud copied the Quran.  However the Jerusalem Talmud was finalised in the fifth century CE so that was before Muhammad was born. It also contains a verse....

    Jerusalem Talmud, Sanhedrin 4:1 (22a)
    "Whoever destroys a soul, it is considered as if he destroyed an entire world. And whoever saves a life, it is considered as if he saved an entire world."

    So we can see that the text existed before the end of the fifth century CE.  Now I need to find an online reference for that so I can see what the surrounding text says.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
     Reply #89 - February 17, 2010, 01:04 PM
    Quran 6:154
    "Again, We gave the Scripture unto Moses, complete for him who would do good, an explanation of all things, a guidance and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord."

    Am I correct in thinking that this means Allah gave Moses ALL of the laws, the COMPLETE set?  If that is the case then the Quran itself says that the Talmud in question cannot be an ordainment from God, because the Talmud was not written by Moses, and it came after Moses.

    I've just made it as far as Sura 7 in the Quran and this one jumped out at me!

    Tafsir Al Kathir comments:
    The revelation to Moses went into the details of people's lives, and thus
    served as a practical guide to the Jews and after them to the Christians. Admittedly
    the Message delivered by Christ dealt with general principles only and in no way
    with details. The message of Islam as in the Qur'an is the next complete guide in
    point of time after that of Moses.


    So it seems I am right  Smiley
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
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