Talmud Sanhedrin 37a

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Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
OP - February 16, 2010, 11:47 AM

Hi all

I've only found out about this one in the past few weeks.
Quran 5:32 says that WE ordained.

Clearly meaning "this is what God said".

But the text is copied from Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 37a
"Whoever destroys a soul from Israel, the Scripture considers it as if he destroyed an entire world. And whoever saves a life from Israel, the Scripture considers it as if he saved an entire world"

And also Jerusalem Talmud, Sanhedrin 4:1 (22a)
"Whoever destroys a soul, it is considered as if he destroyed an entire world. And whoever saves a life, it is considered as if he saved an entire world."

How cool is that? The equivalent of a Torah Tafsir wrote a commentary and Muhammad mixed it up and quoted it as if Allah had said it. How conclusive is that eh?

Anyway, what I need to know is how do I establish approximately when these two items were written? I also need to know how old the oldest surviving copy of this text is. I want to do a quick YouTube video about it, but I want to prove conclusively that "The Jews" didn't "alter their books to make Muhammad look bad" which is an argument I expect.

Any help would be appreciated!

Thanks

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Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
Reply #1 - February 16, 2010, 11:55 AM

Youtube is a quick & easy way to push us up the rankings - particularly shorter punchier or comical videos that tend to get lots of hits - the more the merrier.

I dont know about the dates, but i can give you help on doing youtube videos

btw King Tut - I reckon you could make youtube your stage if you gave it a try..

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Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
Reply #2 - February 16, 2010, 12:09 PM

Awesome find TheRationalizer. I have tried to find two sources, but no luck.

I've heard the Solomon story in the Quran was a Jewish bed-time story.

The Book of Job is originally a play. And originally a Sumerian tale. I have found sources for the Sumerian equivalent of book of Job. But not the first assertion that Book of Job was a (Jewish?) play.
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Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
Reply #3 - February 16, 2010, 12:10 PM

It's a Medinan verse, but that might not mean this verse is Medinan though.

Shakir 5:32

(32) For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our apostles came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.
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Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
Reply #4 - February 16, 2010, 12:11 PM

But check this out, where does story come from:

Shakir 5:31

(31) Then Allah sent a crow digging up the earth so that he might show him how he should cover the dead body of his brother. He said: Woe me! do I lack the strength that I should be like this crow and cover the dead body of my brother? So he became of those who regret.
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Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
Reply #5 - February 16, 2010, 12:12 PM

And then the Quran moves to the present and something different:

Shakir 5:33

(33) The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,

Narrated Abdullah ibn Umar
Some people raided the camels of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him), drove them off, and apostatised. They killed the herdsman of the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) who was a believer. He (the Prophet) sent (people) in pursuit of them and they were caught. He had their hands and feet cut off, and their eyes put out. The verse regarding fighting against Allah and His Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was then revealed. These were the people about whom Anas ibn Malik informed al-Hajjaj when he asked him.
Abu Dawud 38:4356 , See also: Abu Dawud 38:4357 , Abu Dawud 38:4359
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Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
Reply #6 - February 16, 2010, 12:13 PM

The Quran goes from the story of Kane and Abel in one verse, to a verse about Jews and then on to the present? All in a Sura which is about the miracles of Jesus (the table filled with food, might refer to the Last Supper).
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Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
Reply #7 - February 16, 2010, 01:27 PM

Quote from: BlackDog on February 16, 2010, 12:12 PM
Narrated Abdullah ibn Umar
Some people raided the camels of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him), drove them off, and apostatised. They killed the herdsman of the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) who was a believer. He (the Prophet) sent (people) in pursuit of them and they were caught. He had their hands and feet cut off, and their eyes put out. The verse regarding fighting against Allah and His Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was then revealed. These were the people about whom Anas ibn Malik informed al-Hajjaj when he asked him.
Abu Dawud 38:4356 , See also: Abu Dawud 38:4357 , Abu Dawud 38:4359

There was a bit from the Hadith where some tribe had caught an illness(or some other calamity)- they were told that if they became Muslim they would be cured (or calamity sorted). They converted - but of course nothing happened, so they got angry killed the emissary from Muhammad. They were then tracked down and killed for apostasy. I seem to remember it being related to this quote here - anyone have any more info?
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Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
Reply #8 - February 16, 2010, 01:30 PM

Quote from: hupla on February 16, 2010, 01:27 PM
There was a bit from the Hadith where some tribe had caught an illness(or some other calamity)- they were told that if they became Muslim they would be cured (or calamity sorted). They converted - but of course nothing happened, so they got angry killed the emissary from Muhammad. They were then tracked down and killed for apostasy. I seem to remember it being related to this quote here - anyone have any more info?

It's the hadith of the camel urine and camel milk. That's what the Prophet prescribed when they complained about the weather and/or their illness.
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Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
Reply #9 - February 16, 2010, 04:07 PM

@ BD

Speaking of camel piss, Talmud and plagiarizing, check this out:

The Talmud (Oral Jewish Law) recommends drinking urine to treat ailments in general (Shabbat 110a), 40-day-old urine as treatment for wasp stings, scorpion stings and to even cure witchcraft (Shabbat 109b), donkey urine to treat jaundice (Bechorot 7b), children feces to treat scurvy (Shabbat 14d) and white dog feces as helpful for pleurisy (Gittin 69b).

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Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
Reply #10 - February 16, 2010, 04:16 PM

so thats where Mo even got his camel piss cure from

Quote
"Some people from the tribe of 'Ukl came to the Prophet and embraced Islam. The climate of Medina did not suit them, so the Prophet ordered them to go to the (herd of milch) camels of charity and to drink, their milk and urine. They did so, and after they had recovered from their ailment (became healthy) they turned renegades (reverted from Islam) and killed the shepherd of the camels and took the camels away. The Prophet sent (some people) in their pursuit and so they were (caught and) brought, he ordered that their hands and legs should be cut off and that their eyes should be branded with heated pieces of iron, and that their cut hands and legs should not be cauterized, till they die” According to Anas, Volume 8, Bk 82, No794

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Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
Reply #11 - February 16, 2010, 04:35 PM

my view is, Muslims (including hypocrites) after they got exposed to other cultures and learned other languages got access to all sorts of texts... this fabricated Hadith was partly inspired by the Talmud.

I have plenty of Hadiths that I believe were entirely stolen from the Bible/Talmud. Hypocrites (people pretending to be Muslims) have fabricated many Hadiths based on the Bible/Talmud/other texts.

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Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
Reply #12 - February 16, 2010, 04:42 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 16, 2010, 04:35 PM
my view is, Muslims (including hypocrites) after they got exposed to other cultures and learned other languages got access to all sorts of texts... this fabricated Hadith was partly inspired by the Talmud.

I have plenty of Hadiths that I believe were entirely stolen from the Bible/Talmud. Hypocrites (people pretending to be Muslims) have fabricated many Hadiths based on the Bible/Talmud/other texts.

Interesting. You say this because of Bukharis background? And where he came from? Something Tailor was talking about.
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Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
Reply #13 - February 16, 2010, 04:49 PM

Quote
Interesting. You say this because of Bukharis background? And where he came from? Something Tailor was talking about.

NOOOOO! I personally believe Bukhari was an honest man. He simply scrutinized the credibility of the narrators... any narrator who was *known* to be a liar, he exclued the Hadith which included such a narrator.

HOWEVR, scrutnizing a Hadith by the chain of narration alone is not effective.. Bukhari collected Hadith 200 years after the death of the prophet, so his method is lacking, that's all.. but I never doubted Bukhari's honesty.

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Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
Reply #14 - February 16, 2010, 05:04 PM

Quote from: BlackDog on February 16, 2010, 12:13 PM
The Quran goes from the story of Kane and Abel in one verse, to a verse about Jews and then on to the present? All in a Sura which is about the miracles of Jesus (the table filled with food, might refer to the Last Supper).

The verse about Jews is relavent to Caine and Abel. The commentator of the Torah in the Talmud noted that God says his brothers Blood*S* call out to him from the ground, plural rather than singular. From this he deduced that not only had he killed his brother, but all of his brother's ancestors, and so on. So if you kill a single person it is as though you killed a whole nation.

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Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
Reply #15 - February 16, 2010, 05:08 PM

Quote from: hupla on February 16, 2010, 01:27 PM
There was a bit from the Hadith where some tribe had caught an illness(or some other calamity)- they were told that if they became Muslim they would be cured (or calamity sorted). They converted - but of course nothing happened, so they got angry killed the emissary from Muhammad. They were then tracked down and killed for apostasy. I seem to remember it being related to this quote here - anyone have any more info?

I remember it that they were ill. Muhammad told them to drink honey and camel piss. After a while they recovered (I would guess *despite* the "medicine") and when they left they killed the camel sheppard and stole his camels to ride away on. When they caught them they cut off their hands and feet, burned their eyes with hot nails, and left them in the desert to bleed to death.

*THEN* Allah revealed to Muhammad that the only valid punishments for murder are
A: Crucifiction
B: Cutting of hands and feet
C: Forgiveness

Strange how Allah revealed this information AFTER the fact, and AFTER Muhammad had calmed down. I'd have thought just before would have been a good time to tell him

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Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
Reply #16 - February 16, 2010, 05:09 PM

But it's the age of the Talmud I am after.

Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 37a
"Whoever destroys a soul from Israel, the Scripture considers it as if he destroyed an entire world. And whoever saves a life from Israel, the Scripture considers it as if he saved an entire world."

Jerusalem Talmud, Sanhedrin 4:1 (22a)
"Whoever destroys a soul, it is considered as if he destroyed an entire world. And whoever saves a life, it is considered as if he saved an entire world."

Apparently Allah said no such thing. Now that *IS* a revelation!

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Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
Reply #17 - February 16, 2010, 05:16 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on February 16, 2010, 05:08 PM
I remember it that they were ill. Muhammad told them to drink honey and camel piss. After a while they recovered (I would guess *despite* the "medicine") and when they left they killed the camel sheppard and stole his camels to ride away on. When they caught them they cut off their hands and feet, burned their eyes with hot nails, and left them in the desert to bleed to death.

*THEN* Allah revealed to Muhammad that the only valid punishments for murder are
A: Crucifiction
B: Cutting of hands and feet
C: Forgiveness

Strange how Allah revealed this information AFTER the fact, and AFTER Muhammad had calmed down. I'd have thought just before would have been a good time to tell him

That verse has nothing to do with that Hadith... these are opinions of people like Ibn Kathir.. the punishment for murder is killing with a sword.

That verse is concerning something known in Arabic as: حد الحرابة... you can google it if you speak Arabic.. anyway, it's for those who terrorize the cimmunity by their crimes (for example, a serial killer would be punished by حد الحرابة)

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Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
Reply #18 - February 16, 2010, 05:46 PM

I must be mixing it up with another story then

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Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
Reply #19 - February 16, 2010, 05:47 PM

No you are not. Debunker has "debunked" Ibn Kathir's tafsir.

He is against most of the Hadiths, tafsirs and siras. But he is still not a Quran only. Don't ask me how.

Sorry DB
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Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
Reply #20 - February 16, 2010, 06:15 PM

Let me explain how: when it comes to Hadiths, I have the same exact view of Mutazilites (who appeared in 8th century).

When it comes to Tafsir, I read what they have to say, if I was convinced, I take their opinion, otherwise I reject it...

In any case, a big chunk of Tafsir is pure speculation.

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Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
Reply #21 - February 16, 2010, 07:01 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 16, 2010, 06:15 PM
Let me explain how: when it comes to Hadiths, I have the same exact view of Mutazilites (who appeared in 8th century).

When it comes to Tafsir, I read what they have to say, if I was convinced, I take their opinion, otherwise I reject it...

In any case, a big chunk of Tafsir is pure speculation.

Sure Tafsir speculation, it's opinion. But there is a difference between educated opinions and personal opinions. Of what sort are your opinions?

But I am guessing you don't agree with the Mutazilites on these points:

Quran, man made copy of the Eternal book? Or eternal and unchanged book even on Earth.

Did God create Evil? If not then how is God omnipotent and omniscient? If God did create it then how is he All Merciful?

I would venture so far as to say you have created your own Islam. Which is fine. I just wish that most people realize this how most people actually practice their religion. We are individuals, I highly doubt religious practice is exactly identical. You pick and choose your religious views Debunker.

For you this is all fine and dandy, but when you get home. To a muslim majority, orthodox majority how are you gonna hold up?

On a side-note, is it not funny you can practice your form of Islam in the West?
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Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
Reply #22 - February 16, 2010, 07:26 PM

I disagree with a lot of Mutazilites beliefs.

As for practicing my so-called version of Islam back home, no body cares as long as I don't openly air my views... anyway, who cares... my religion is mine and that's fine with me (although sometimes I try to discuss things with friends only to be harshly ridiculed by them )

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Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
Reply #23 - February 16, 2010, 07:28 PM

Just out of interest DB, are you behind the shariah laws, or do you think they should be repealed?

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Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
Reply #24 - February 16, 2010, 07:36 PM

There should be no Shariah laws... all of these were for their time... Islam is worshipping God and God alone.

In fact, I often mention to Orthodox Sunnis, the incident when Umar dropped the punishment for burglarly when it was not fit at a certain time.

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Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
Reply #25 - February 16, 2010, 07:36 PM

What about Madrassa's? Do you think religion should be preached in schools, or left to parents?

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Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
Reply #26 - February 16, 2010, 07:39 PM

Quote from: debunker on February 16, 2010, 07:26 PM
I disagree with a lot of Mutazilites beliefs.

As for practicing my so-called version of Islam back home, no body cares as long as I don't openly air my views... anyway, who cares... my religion is mine and that's fine with me (although sometimes I try to discuss things with friends only to be harshly ridiculed by them )

Your religion is your own? There is no such thing as a "personal" religion. Do you have kids? Would you teach them that God exists or will you leave them to form their own opinions on religion once their minds are mature enough to be objective?

Do you realise that in openly believing what you do you give credibility to the same ridiculous beliefs in others? Do you realise that in believing these absurdities you are providing a base for those who commit atrocities? After all if LOTS of people believe X, it is only a small leap of faith to believe X+1.

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities - Voltaire" - You are helping people to believe absurdities.

As for "personal" belief
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgCatE7nWFk

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Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
Reply #27 - February 16, 2010, 07:40 PM

I have never been in a Madrassa... my father tried to put us in a madrassa when we were little but my mother vehemently opposed that... she always seemed contradictory to people around her... she loved religion but hated most of religious people.. she called them hypocrites most of the time.

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Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
Reply #28 - February 16, 2010, 07:45 PM

Well I'm glad you didn't go to a madrassa. Would seem a waste of intelligence. Not that you are using the full powers of it now though haha j/k
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Re: Talmud Sanhedrin 37a
Reply #29 - February 16, 2010, 07:47 PM

@ TheRationalizer

I don't believe in the silly claim that my belief in a religion validates the beliefs of others.

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