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 Topic: Mo stealing religion from jews.

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  • Mo stealing religion from jews.
     OP - November 06, 2009, 07:46 AM

    I have read that Mohammed tried to impose himself on the jews as their prophet then killed them when they refused.

    Is there evidence of this in any texts if so where?


  • Re: Mo stealing religion from jews.
     Reply #1 - November 06, 2009, 07:56 AM

    The most famous incident is the one of the execution/massacre of Banu Qurayza. The most thorough account of it is available in the Sira literature. But here is what I've found:-

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_qurayza
  • Re: Mo stealing religion from jews.
     Reply #2 - November 06, 2009, 07:57 AM

    I have read that Mohammed tried to impose himself on the jews as their prophet then killed them when they refused.

    Is there evidence of this in any texts if so where?


    Muhammad certainly hoped the Jews would accept him as a prophet. He believed he brought the same basic message as the Old Testament prophets - strict monotheism. He did many things to win them over such as fasting on Yom Kippur, the Jewish Day of Atonement, facing Jerusalem in prayer, compulsory circumcision, following many dietry and clothing customs of the Jews. The Qur'an is of course full of stories of the Old Testament prophets.

    But when the vast majority of Jews refused to accept him as prophet he turned against them when in power in Medina, accusing them of treachery and killing many and evicting the rest.

    It can be found in the Sira of Ibn Hisham amongst other books.
  • Re: Mo stealing religion from jews.
     Reply #3 - November 06, 2009, 08:17 AM

    Thanks
  • Re: Mo stealing religion from jews.
     Reply #4 - November 06, 2009, 10:22 AM

    Sirat p. 461 / Tabari VIII p. 27 http://realmuhammad.info/BanuQurayza.html

    At the time of the noon prayers, Gabriel came to Muhammad wearing an embrodied turban and riding on a mule with a saddle covered with a piece of brocade.
    He asked Muhammad if he had abandoned fighting, and when he said that he had, he said that the angels had not yet laid aside their arms, and that he had just come from pursuing the enemy. "Allah commands you, Oh Muhammad, to go to Banu Qurayza. I am about to go there to shake their stronghold."
    Muhammad ordered it to be announced that none should perform the afternoon prayer until after he reached Banu Qurayza.
    Muhammad sent Ali forward with this banner and the men hastened to it. Ali advanced until when he came near the forts, he heard insulting language used of Muhammad. He returned to meet Muhammad on the road and told him that it was not necessary for him to come near those rascals. Muhammad said: "Why? I think you must have heard them speaking ill of me," and when Ali said that it was so, he added: "If they saw me they would not talk in that fashion." When Muhammad approached their forts, he said: "You brothers of monkeys, has Allah disgraced you and brought his vengeance upon you?"
    They replied: "Oh Abul-Qasim, you are not a barbarious person."
    Muhammad passed by a number of his companions in al-Saurayn before he got to Banu Qurayza, and asked if anyone had passed them. They replied that Dihya b. Khalifa al-Kalbi had passed upon a white mule with a saddle covered with a piece of brocade.
    He said: "That was Gabriel who has been sent to Banu Qurayza to shake their castles and strike terror to their hearts."
    Some of the men came after the last evening prayer, not having prayed the afternoon prayer because Muhammad had told them not to do so until he got to Banu Qurayza. They had been much occupied with warlike preparations and they refused to pray until they came to Banu Qurayza in accordance with his instructions, and they prayed the afternoon prayer there after the last evening prayer.
    Allah did not blame them for that in His book, nor did Muhammad reproach them.

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  • Re: Mo stealing religion from jews.
     Reply #5 - November 06, 2009, 11:36 AM

    Basically in 627 AD almost nine hundred Jews of a Medinan tribe named Banu Quraiza were massacred by Muslims in one day.

    Muhammed decreed the massacre and the fortunate few that escaped death were taken captives by the Muslims and sold in slave markets. It was genocide, total annihilation known as Banu Quraza incident in history and is how Medinah was captured.

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  • Re: Mo stealing religion from jews.
     Reply #6 - November 06, 2009, 11:47 AM

    Basically in 627 AD almost nine hundred Jews of a Medinan tribe named Banu Quraiza were massacred by Muslims in one day.

    Muhammed decreed the massacre and the fortunate few that escaped death were taken captives by the Muslims and sold in slave markets. It was genocide, total annihilation known as Banu Quraza incident in history and is how Medinah was captured.


    If you want to see something funny - watch a Muslim 'scholar' try to down play the episode.

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Mo stealing religion from jews.
     Reply #7 - November 06, 2009, 01:08 PM

    If you want to see something funny - watch a Muslim 'scholar' try to down play the episode.


    That episode is seen as treason. Mohammad was the head of a city state and had a pact with the various Jewish tribes. Banu Qurayza breached the treaty by siding with the Makkan Quraysh against the Propphet and the tribes of Aws and Khazraj.

    Now fair enough they broke a treaty and were liable........

    But all 600-900 of them? I don't think so. If only the culprits were weeded out or a "revelation" had come down which pointed to the traitors specifically, wouldn't that have been easier? It's well within the bounds of an Omniscient Diety to specify that.
  • Re: Mo stealing religion from jews.
     Reply #8 - November 07, 2009, 01:16 AM

    I thought there were doubts over the legitimacy over the story. Moreover killing all the men in the tribe no doubt is obviously excessive. I thought Islam decreed only the perpertrator of treason be killed. Anyhow it would obviously suggest poilitical motives on the part of Muhammad so he could capture another city.

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Mo stealing religion from jews.
     Reply #9 - November 07, 2009, 12:10 PM

    But all 600-900 of them? I don't think so. If only the culprits were weeded out or a "revelation" had come down which pointed to the traitors specifically, wouldn't that have been easier? It's well within the bounds of an Omniscient Diety to specify that.


    If the God of the Qur'an (& the God of the Old Testament) has no problem with "Collective Punishment" is it any surprise the believers don't either?

    This is the problem with believing in an Absolute Standard of Divinely Ordained morality - one has to keep defending it as right long after man has evolved beyond it.
  • Re: Mo stealing religion from jews.
     Reply #10 - November 07, 2009, 01:57 PM

    The full story is worse.

    Muhammad was surrounded for 30 days in khybar. Banu Qurayza refused to allow 24K Meccan soldiers into their fort to get to Muhamad. After 30 days the Meccans led by Abu Sufyan left. And Muhammad turned on the Banu Qurayza who covered his ass against an army, and he surrounded them for another 25 days until they surrendered. They thought he will exile them like he did the Banu Qaynuqa.

    No such luck unfortunately.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Mo stealing religion from jews.
     Reply #11 - November 15, 2009, 04:08 PM

    Have u got a source for this story. `

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Mo stealing religion from jews.
     Reply #12 - November 16, 2009, 07:05 AM

    Have u got a source for this story.


    Ibn Ishaq's biography of Muhammad; the normal refutation against it is the fact that he has no training in the sciences of hadith and relies on pretty much any narrative he can grab a hold of; oh, and the fact that is incomplete (IIRC he died before completing it) and some parts are lost.

    I'd say that if you want a historically accurate picture of Muhammad, you're shit out of luck; pretty much all the biographies rely on stories rather than confirmed cases from both within and outside the tradition of Islam.

    Which goes back to what Ziauddin Sardar would say that Muhammad is re-approached with each generation where his character is remoulded into something relevant today given that any evidence of what he was really like was lost long ago.

    A bit like how Jesus is the good shepherd, prince of peace at one end of the spectrum and at the liberation theology end - Jesus the warrior, protector of the weak and punisher of tyrants.

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Mo stealing religion from jews.
     Reply #13 - November 16, 2009, 09:37 AM

    Jesus the warrior..and punisher of tyrants.

    Interesting you say this, as its always been my impression that he was some form of Judaic hippy - Do you have any instances to help destroy this myth?

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  • Re: Mo stealing religion from jews.
     Reply #14 - November 16, 2009, 11:22 AM

    Interesting you say this, as its always been my impression that he was some form of Judaic hippy - Do you have any instances to help destroy this myth?


    I don't have any information handy about liberation theology - although my old man has dabbled in it due to his Catholic background of left-leaningness. I'm sure one of the verses many use is the following:

    Matthew 10:34 - "I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword"

    Some claim that 'sword' is a metaphor whilst liberation theologists took this to be literal as to take up arms against the oppressor. It has been ages since I've opened up the New Testament - but I'm sure they pull on the old testament selectively as well.

    The process of selective biography occurs in Christianity and Islam depending on the projection of the individual and what they believe their given 'guru' symbolises. I'm sure you've seen people who dismiss all the violence of Muhammad and exaggerate the positive aspects of his personality, just as the jihadist exaggerate the violence by using it to legitimise their own violence.

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Mo stealing religion from jews.
     Reply #15 - November 17, 2009, 08:13 AM

    The full story is worse.

    Muhammad was surrounded for 30 days in khybar. Banu Qurayza refused to allow 24K Meccan soldiers into their fort to get to Muhamad. After 30 days the Meccans led by Abu Sufyan left. And Muhammad turned on the Banu Qurayza who covered his ass against an army, and he surrounded them for another 25 days until they surrendered. They thought he will exile them like he did the Banu Qaynuqa.

    No such luck unfortunately.


    You talking about the unsuccessful Meccan seige of Yathrib/Madinah?

    Wait, didnt the Jewish tribes declared their neutrality in that battle when their alliance with Muhammad starting falling apart over differences in tactics in Battle of Uhad ?

    Khybar is not that near from Madinah and was attacked and then conquered by Muhammad's forces much later because he felt their neutrality equalled treason.

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Mo stealing religion from jews.
     Reply #16 - January 27, 2010, 09:06 AM

    Muhammad certainly hoped the Jews would accept him as a prophet. He believed he brought the same basic message as the Old Testament prophets - strict monotheism. He did many things to win them over such as fasting on Yom Kippur, the Jewish Day of Atonement, facing Jerusalem in prayer, compulsory circumcision, following many dietry and clothing customs of the Jews. The Qur'an is of course full of stories of the Old Testament prophets.

    But when the vast majority of Jews refused to accept him as prophet he turned against them when in power in Medina, accusing them of treachery and killing many and evicting the rest.

    It can be found in the Sira of Ibn Hisham amongst other books.


    Would this mean Mohammed himself was not circumcised?
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