Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


NayaPakistan...New Pakist...
Today at 09:59 AM

Covering Your Internet Tr...
Today at 09:34 AM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
Today at 12:18 AM

What music are you listen...
by zeca
Yesterday at 12:08 AM

The essence of the facts
October 19, 2021, 06:44 PM

مدهش----- لماذا؟؟؟؟
by akay
October 17, 2021, 04:40 PM

MP murdered
October 17, 2021, 11:45 AM

France Muslims were in d...
October 17, 2021, 09:41 AM

Freely down loadable Boo...
October 15, 2021, 11:44 AM

Afghanistan
October 13, 2021, 08:24 AM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
October 11, 2021, 08:59 PM

Tommy Robinson is a refor...
October 08, 2021, 09:16 AM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Discussion between Debunker & Hassan

 (Read 6617 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Discussion between Debunker & Hassan
     OP - January 19, 2010, 01:24 PM

    Hi Debunker,

    OK well imagine we are both sitting on a beautiful Turkish carpet, reclining on embroidered cushions and sipping sweet mint tea.

    What's on your mind, my friend? (Respond in your own time as I will)

    Smiley
  • Re: Discussion between Debunker & Hassan
     Reply #1 - January 19, 2010, 02:24 PM

    Great! So this is more of a discussion rather than a debate. Although I know you most likey won't find my arguments convincing, I would still like you to comment on them.
     
    When you wake up tomorrow, you will find my first (rather lengthy) post.

    Thanks Hassan.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Discussion between Debunker & Hassan
     Reply #2 - January 20, 2010, 08:37 PM

    Hello Hassan,


    I tried to organize my thoughts but I failed miserably so I hope you won't find my writing style too disorienting. Also, I hope you'd read all what I wrote before you respond.

    This post is meant to discuss Eternal Damnation in Hell. Many people object to threats of torment in Hell for the following reasons:

    1- God shouldn't be so small as to *need* our worship.
    2- If God is infinitely merciful then this should prevent Him from torturing kind loving humans for the trivial sin of disbelief. 
    3- It seems awfully suspicious that these threats of Hell are meant to control the masses by religious leaders.   


    I.  Introduction: God and the Human Language

    First I would like to discuss a few things that might seem irrelevant to our main discussion. I would like to begin by quoting billy (out of context):

    Quote
    The universe is an incomprehensible creation of such vastness that if we were ever to comprehend its infinite size and variety, it would crush our minds - it is beyond imagining, beyond numbers, beyond all that can be conceived of - even on this planet Earth alone resides trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions of moments, lives, thoughts, beings, in just one second of existence.


    So our billy clearly believes the universe, that we humans are already in touch with, is incomprehensible... it's beyond understanding in the fullest sense.

    So how about the Creator who created this known universe and beyond? He is infinitely greater and infinitely beyond comprehension. No words can describe Him. No book can define Him (18:109; 31:27).

    Yet men of different faiths claim He communicated with us through His earthly agents: prophets. Is that a contradiction? Not if we understand that God chose to communicate to us to within our severly limited ability to understand. He used the imperfect human language as a vehicle to convey His message to us: He is God, the Creator of the universe and everything and everyone is His slave.

    But that's not the only thing the Quran says. It also says things like: God gets angry, He exacts vengence and He has enemies and allies. These words sound all too human, and so they should, as they address humans and God uses whatever language they use to get the message across. Oftentimes people get so hung up on the language and forget that it is the message, these words carry, is what they should be concerned about.

    The other issue is that the message itself is in the eye of the beholder. By that I mean people studying the same text tend to read different messages, influenced by bias. Of course, context is essential to reading the correct message but sometimes, understanding the context requires careful reading of the entire book. Examples:

    1- Some people read 51:56 and think God created us because He *needs* our worship. And when they read elsewhere that He actually does NOT need our worship (e.g. 14:8; 31:12) they go "Ah! a contradiction!" But reading all verses togeather simply means that God in 51:56 tells us what is our job to do. In fact, this Universal Law is clarified in more than one verse, for example: 22:18; 17:44; 16:48-49; 13:13; 24:41; 38:18. A creator, by deafault, creates and all his creations are owned by him. Worshipping God, can thus be thought of as us realizing this ownership, our being His creations, His slaves.

    2- God orders the believers to fight in His cause those who fight them (2:190) and yet somewhere else (e.g. 29:6) He says He does not need their fighting, as fighting is for their own sake. Another contradiction? Like I said, it's all in the eye of the beholder.

    3- God describes giving charity as lending Him money (2:245; 57:11), and yet elsewhere He says He does not need our money (e.g. 57:24). This, to some, means a contradiction and to others it means that it's just meant to convey the greatness of charity. (Of course there are those who think God should feed the hungry Himself (36:47). More on this below.)

    Even understanding the intended message correctly does not give us all the truth. The message we understand is merely a limited projection of the entire truth that is beyond our understanding, in the first place.

    For example, why does God order us to feed the hungry when He wouldn't feed them Himself (36:47)? Does this mean that He expects us to be more merciful than Himself? Can we outdo the All-Merciful God? In fact, why do a lot of good people suffer in this world? These are all reasonable questions and the only thing I can think of to try to understand this is thinking of this life as an infinitely short trip compared to an eternity in our final destination.

    Although we weren't given all the answers and in fact we wouldn't have been able to grasp the entire message had it been revealed to us in full, what I believe is that we have already been given what is necessary to believe. Scripture is meant to only *approximate* the infinite God to within our limited understanding, for no book can truly explain God (18:109; 31:27). I know you disagree, Hassan, but that's what I honestly believe.


    II. Pride-Based Disobedience

    First, I hope you don't misunderstand me when I use the word: pride. From experience, I can attest to the fact that Atheists are among the most decent, nicest, loving people one can ever meet. By pride I mean when someone realizes that they are one of the creations of the Almighty God and yet chooses to disobey Him or reject His authority. Or when someone finds the truth and yet rejects it.

    Some atheists, who claim that they don't believe God even exists, assert that even if He exists, they would still not recognize their being His slaves... Now, if you don't call this pride (towards God), I don't know what else you might call it. If God is the creator of the whole vast known universe within which we're merely specks of dust and yet we wouldn't recognize our being slaves of the Creator, then this is nothing but shear arrogance (towards God).

    Now, I'm not sure if you object to the concept of Hell as a whole or Eternal Damnation specifically. But we both know that not all people who go to Hell spend eternity in Hell.

    But what constitutes eternal damnation? Only if man disobeys God out of pride/arrogance/stubborness, then will he receive eternal damnation. Pride is the cardinal sin... Satan's only sin is pride (he believed in God but insisted on disobeying him and rejecting His authority out of sheer pride).

    Just to give an example, imagine an isolated island today where generations upon generations of people worshipped idols... being isolated from the rest of the world, they couldn't have received any religious message. Such people cannot go to Hell for non-belief in a message they know absolutely nothing about.

    The Quran mentions the Heights, a place situated between Hell and Paradise. It can be inferred from the Quran that this place is reserved for those men whose lack of pure submission to the One Creator God is NOT based on pride/arrogance/stuborness (7:48).

    Of course we have no idea how these men will be judged, but clearly they were not proud towards God. For the ultimate salvation, pure submision to God (3:64) without any pride/arrogance/stubborness (towards Him) is all that is needed. In fact, there are many many verses which associate Hell with pride, for example:
     
    7:48 (The Men of the Heights calling Hell dwellers proud, implying that they themselves did not committ this sin).

    39: 59-60; 39:72;  40:76 (Hell is the abode for the proud).

    40: 56 (the proud argues about signs with limited knowledge).

    32:15 (only the humble believes).

    See also, for example: 37:35; 4:173; 7:36; 16:29; 25:21;  7:75-76; 7:88; 7:133; 16:22-23; 6:93; 40:60; 71:7; 50:24; 74:16, among many.


    III. The Purpose of Hell

    So why does the infinite God *need?* to torture forever people who, out of pride, disobey/reject His authority?

    The fact is God does NOT need to torture people. He simply does *NOT* care to save the proud (against Him). He disregards them (32:14; 45:34) and assigns them no weight in the hereafter (18:105).

    In other words, since God created humanity destined to Hell (19:71), only those who are humble get God's infinite mercy and are saved. If someone's arrogant towards God then there's no reason for God to save them from their fate.

    Why did God create us destined to Hell? Perhaps because, unlike glorious majestic angels, man was created imperfect and thus destined to Hell?

    But why did God create man imperfect in the first place? In fact, the angels asked God this question and He replied that He knows what they don't (2:30). Unlike perfect, ever obedient angels, however, the imperfect man was given the ability to choose to humbly submit to God. But what's the point of all of this? I don't know, again, like I said even angels weren't given the answer to this question. But someone once suggested to me that by creating man, God thus created devotion, in its truest sense, out of imperfection. Of course, these are only speculations. No one knows why God created man imperfect (with the ability to choose) when He already had perfect creations (angels).

    Moreover, the threats of Hell are meant to serve two purposes: 1- Assert that Hell is a literal place. 2- speak to simple-minded people who can only understand the concept of reward and punishment. Such people would be at a great disadvantage if they weren't repeatedly warned against Hell.. but I don't think that all those who submit, do so simply because they fear Hell. I, for example, submit because I believe in the existence of the infinite Creator God who created me and this automatically makes me His slave. My worshipping Him is really only acknowledging the fact that I am His slave (His creation) just like all other creations acknowledge this (the Universal Law). Why should I deny my being His slave, when a creation, by default, is owned by its creator?

    Another way to understand the threats of Hell is as follows.

    1- The human soul IS eternal (7:172; 40:11)... consienceness isn't. Conscienceness can be distrupted by sleep, a coma or death, but the soul is eternal.
    2- The first abode for our souls was our bodies in this infinitely short life.
    3- We regain conscienceness in the after life to live our eternal lives in our eternal bodies... but there's one of two abodes: either Hell or paradise.

    So if you look at the three points above, it's not a matter of reward and punishment as much as it is a question of which final abode shall one live in (39:59-60; 39:72; 40:76). Now, why would an infinitely small creation (human), who is arrogant and defiant towards God be given the good place as his final abode?

    Again, the fact is God does NOT need to torture people. He simply does *NOT* care to save the proud (against Him). He disregards them (32:14; 45:34) and assigns them no weight in the hereafter (18:105). And since the soul is eternal, an eternal abode is a necessity. We are all no more than specks of dust to Him (even lower than that). Throwing us all in Hell is simply nothing to Him. He does not care, except His infinite mercy makes Him care for those of us who chose to acknowledge the Universal Law (worship is acknowledging our being His slaves).


    To recap:

    > Creator ---> creates --> creation exists --> creation is a slave to its creator (the Universal Law)

    > Pure worship and submission to the Creator can be viewed as acknowledging our being His creation (slaves).

    > Human soul is eternal --> eternal abode is a must.

    If humble --> paradise.

    If arrogant --> Hell.

    > Why not create man perfect like angels? --> Because God would have created more angels.

    > But why create imperfection when angels are already perfect? --> Angels asked the same question and received no answer... but it could be that out of imperfection devotion in its truest sense is born.



    IV. I Did Not Ask to Be Created!

    Finally, some argue that they didn't ask to be created in the first place, least of all be created imperfect (with the ability to choose).

    Aside from the fact that God creates whatever/whomever He wants, the fact is before we existed we were not able to object to our future existence (assuming we were even given the choice to object). And now that we exist we tend to hold onto our lives which really means that we appreciate our being created so there's no point of objecting to this.

    Also, I believe 33:72 could metaphorically mean that the ability to choose to obey/disobey God was man's choice.

    33:72
    We offered the trust unto the heavens and the earth and the mountains, but they shrank from bearing it and were afraid of it. And man assumed it. Lo! he was indeed unjust and foolish.


    Could this simply mean that, given the ability to choose (the trust to obey the Universal Law voluntarily) was offered to all creation and even the mightiest among creations (heavens, earth and mountains) refused to handle this trust but it was man who so foolishly accepted it? In fact, check out the next verse:

    7:172
    And when your Lord brought forth from the children of Adam, from their backs, their descendants, and made them bear witness against their own souls: Am I not your Lord? They said: Yes! we bear witness. Lest you should say on the day of resurrection: Surely we were heedless of this.


    Is this verse saying that the ability to accept the truth is ingrained in all of us?

    The bottom line is: we really know very little (17:85), but what we already know should be enough to accept submission to God.


    PS. Some Muslim theologans actually seemed to have a problem with Eternal Damnation since the 8th century. One of the most famous Sunni scholars, Ibn Taymiyyah, believes the Hell fire will perish (no eternal damnation) adopting the view of Mutaziltes and depending on a weird Hadith which does state that Hell is perishable, contradicting the entire Quran. (I guess you already know all of that).
    http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=13876437

    So yes, apparently even past Muslim theologians adopted unorthodox views on Hell because they clearly had a problem with eternal damnation...But as far as I'm concerned, I believe I'm infinitely insignificant EXCEPT by God's infinite mercy.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Discussion between Debunker & Hassan
     Reply #3 - January 21, 2010, 04:49 PM

    Hi Debunker,

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts and feelings and I respect that you've been very open and honest about them. Forgive me if I don't respond to every point. (If there is anything you specifically want me to answer/address just let me know).

    Re; your belief that God created humanity for Hell and only those who believe in God and humble will be saved, while those who disbelieve and are "arrogant" towards God will be abandoned to an eternity of torture?

    Can you understand why many people might consider this cruel and illogical? And as a result might disbelieve in such a God because of that (and not because they are "arrogant.")

    I appreciate you say we don't know the reason why God has done this and I also appreciate that you trust that God must have a very good reason.

    But again - can you understand how many might find this answer unsatisfying? Particularly as we have nothing else on which to make our choices other than the limited mind God gave us.

    Would you agree that;

    1. God's existence cannot be established beyond doubt?

    2. That the Qur'an is God's word cannot be established beyond doubt.

    If you agree with one or either of the above - would you agree that the claim that a God who calls himself the Most Merciful would abandon his creatures to eternal torment when he could end it - may seem unbelievable to many people?

    Even if God/Qur'an could be established beyond doubt - do you think torturing the disbelievers for eternity makes sense?

    If you think that the existence of God and the Qur'an as the word of God, can indeed be established beyond any doubt then why would anyone disbelieve?

    It seems to me that anyone who would deny something that they know is true beyond any doubt is either mentally ill or has not seen or understood this undeniable proof.

    To say they are 'arrogant' doesn't make sense to me? Are you saying they know Islam is true but 'arrogantly' reject it? Why do they arrogantly reject it? What benefit do they get from rejecting something they know is true and know they will be eternally tortured for?

    Although I am Agnostic and so neither completely reject nor confirm the idea that there might be a God. I utterly reject the concept of God you describe. A God who would create people for an eternity in Hell - regardless of how 'arrogant' one claims they have been. Does that mean I have "arrogantly" denied God?

    From my point of view it is you who is rejecting and  insulting God - if there is a God.

    Think about it.

    If there is a God and he is not the God described in the Qur'an and Bible and he is truly greater and more wonderful than we can imagine, then who is really insulting him?

    The one who says that he will torture people for eternity?  Or the one who say that if he does exist he would be far above such pointlessly sadistic behaviour?

    Do you really think that a Wise and Merciful God would let people suffer eternal torture for coming to that conclusion - even if they were mistaken?
  • Re: Discussion between Debunker & Hassan
     Reply #4 - January 22, 2010, 03:19 AM

    Quote
    Hi Debunker,


    Hello Hassan,

    Quote
    Re; your belief that God created humanity for Hell and only those who believe in God and humble will be saved, while those who disbelieve and are "arrogant" towards God will be abandoned to an eternity of torture?


    Only those who, out of arrogance towards God, reject His authority will go to Hell.

    For example, what about primitive people in the amazon? Would they go to Hell? Answer: No. Because they know nothing about the idea of pure submission to the One Creator God.

    Another example: a Jew who read the Quran and HONESTLY didn't find it convincing, would they go to Hell? Answer: No. (3:64).

    An atheist who *honestly* doesn't know if the Creator truly exists (although I find that very, very hard to believe) then the answer is: No, they won't go to Hell.

    One last example, an atheist who believes that even if God exists, they would still not submit to Him (and I heard this A LOT), then the answer is: Yes, they will end up in Hell.

    Quote
    Can you understand why many people might consider this cruel and illogical? And as a result might disbelieve in such a God because of that (and not because they are "arrogant.")


    Yes. Because they can't believe that we are infinitely insignificant (except by God's mercy). Most people actually believe if God exists, then He *owes* us something.

    Some believe a creator has the responsibility to take care of his creations.

    Well, in the case of man, we were given the responsibility to take care of our own souls (verses ?).
    In fact, man even accepted this responsibility (verse ?).

    Quote
    I appreciate you say we don't know the reason why God has done this and I also appreciate that you trust that God must have a very good reason.


    Well, the originnal condition is God does NOT care == Hell.

    Some might ask, if God does NOT care then why make Hell a horrible place? Why not just make it a dull place for example?

    Because if it were then this means that God actually cares to make it easier for people whom He doesn't even care about. If God doesn't care about me then why should He care to make the final abode to my eternal soul any easier than Hell?

    Again enternal soul means eternal abode... God does NOT care == Hell. Questions such as why not make Hell, easier, etc all imply that God should care.


    Quote
    But again - can you understand how many might find this answer unsatisfying? Particularly as we have nothing else on which to make our choices other than the limited mind God gave us.


    But that limited mind, IMHO, should at least enable anyone to realize that the Creator God exists. That is all what is needed. Accepting that a creation is a slave to its creator. But even if someone, somehow, in all honesty can't realize this, then this does NOT mean Hell.

    Quote
    Would you agree that;
    1. God's existence cannot be established beyond doubt?


    No I don't agree. (but many people seem to actually HONESTLY believe that, which is mind-boggling to me).

    Quote
    2. That the Qur'an is God's word cannot be established beyond doubt.


    Yes. And there's no problem in this case, per se. Submission to the creator God (regardless of scripture is what matters 3:64)

    Quote
    If you agree with one or either of the above - would you agree that the claim that a God who calls himself the Most Merciful would abandon his creatures to eternal torment when he could end it - may seem unbelievable to many people?


    Please refer to the above.

    Quote
    Even if God/Qur'an could be established beyond doubt - do you think torturing the disbelievers for eternity makes sense?


    Are you talking about those who believed in God and yet they rejected submission to Him? Then yes, as I explained in my first post.

    Quote
    If you think that the existence of God and the Qur'an as the word of God, can indeed be established beyond any doubt then why would anyone disbelieve?


    I just gave you an example of Atheists who said that even if they believed God exists then they still reject His authority. That's what I call arrogance towards God.

    Quote
    It seems to me that anyone who would deny something that they know is true beyond any doubt is either mentally ill or has not seen or understood this undeniable proof.


    If it's really the latter, then there's no problem. But some people do reject the truth out of arrogance. In fact, some people even declare that even if they knew the truth they would still reject it.

    Quote
    To say they are 'arrogant' doesn't make sense to me? Are you saying they know Islam is true but 'arrogantly' reject it?

     

    No. Nowhere in my previous post did I say that.

    Quote
    Why do they arrogantly reject it?

     

    I said above some *honestly* don't believe the truth (no problem). Some are ignorant of the truth (no problem). And some say that even if God exists then they still don't give a damn (big problem).

    Quote
    What benefit do they get from rejecting something they know is true and know they will be eternally tortured for?


    Maybe I didn't explain myself well. When someone realizes a truth, any truth, which doesn't happen to agree with their desires, they don't NECESSARILY need to constantly wrestle with accepting it or rejecting it. In many cases, it's only a decision to either suppress it or accept it.

    Let me give examples:

    I have a diebetic relative who refuses to take any medications. She refuses to exercise and she eats sweats as if she were a 10 years old kid. She believes that her diabetes is only a temporary condition caused by her last pregnancy (despite the doctor's assertions to the contrary). Her diabetes is so bad that even after an 8-hour fast, her glucose blood level is around 200. She rarely ever used her meter, but now, however, she decided to get rid of the meter... as if this somehow would change the fact that she's ill. I'm sure she will never admit her being diabetic until she is befallen by a health catastrophy. But why does she refuse medications? Because, according to her, any medications have severe side effects. But my guess is that she's resisting taking medications because that would only confirm a truth she wants to suppress. And why did she decide get rid of the meter? Because of the overwhelming desire to believe that she's healthy, but the truth is she is NOT. Every reading of the meter is a moment of truth she has to struggle with to suppress, so she decided to get rid of her meter. She decided to suppress the truth, once and for all, and allow her fantasy of good health to triumph.

    Another example from the Bible, which you can take it as a fictional story if you want, I'm just trying to explain an idea.
    When Jesus came Korazin and Bethsaida and he performed his clear miracles, the people of these cities, at least for a moment, must have believed in his clear signs. They realized the truth and decided to suppress it. It was only a decision. It was a momentarily struggle between the truth and their ego, the ego was the victor and the truth was forever suppressed.


    The expression: "Intentional disbelief" is an oxymoron when used in the broadest sense.

    In order for it to be a meaningful expression, intentional disbelief must be defined by the triumphing of the ego over the truth during the moments of struggle between the truth and the ego.

    Once one reaches these critical moments where they have to choose between satisfying their egos or accepting the truth, and they choose the former, the truth becomes a lie.


    So the answer is no. No one rejects something they know is true. One must make a conscience decision to murder the truth before they actually can believe it's a lie. Sometimes this takes only a few moments, sometimes it's a long struggle.

    Have you ever watched the movie Memento? One scene, only one scene in that movie was all that is required to make it so worth watching it.

    Quote
    Although I am Agnostic and so neither completely reject nor confirm the idea that there might be a God. I utterly reject the concept of God you describe. A God who would create people for an eternity in Hell - regardless of how 'arrogant' one claims they have been. Does that mean I have "arrogantly" denied God?


    No. If you believe in the Creator God and submit to Him that's all you need for salvation. (3:64).

    Quote
    From my point of view it is you who is rejecting and  insulting God - if there is a God.

    Think about it.


    Not at all. I just happen to believe that I am infinitely insignificant except by God's infinite mercy.

    Anyway, a Christian friend once told me that one could think of sinning against the infinite God like commiting an infinite sin. That's a different way to look at it, which I do not accept. Because, our sins can't hurt God, they only hurt us. (verses ?). Even when we say things like we sin against God, this should be taken metaphorically to convey that sin is serious.

    Quote
    If there is a God and he is not the God described in the Qur'an and Bible and he is truly greater and more wonderful than we can imagine, then who is really insulting him?

    The one who says that he will torture people for eternity?  Or the one who say that if he does exist he would be far above such pointlessly sadistic behaviour?


    Well, my previous post was an attempt at explaining that He does not *need* our worship... He does not *need* to torture...He simply does not *care*.  And God not caring == Hell, as I explained above.

    Quote
    Do you really think that a Wise and Merciful God would let people suffer eternal torture for coming to that conclusion - even if they were mistaken?


    No. Like I explained above, all you have to do is submit to the creator God, regardless of any scripture. Then again, if one doesn't know any better (out of humble honesty) then God would care for them.

    Of course, I wasn't expecting you'd be convinced in anything I said and your response confirms my expectations. I was hoping you'd address each point in my previous post, one by one but clearly you see the discussion over Hell with me is pointless and you're not interested in pointless discussions. So, how about I discuss with you another one of the issues you raised in your videos? I might add a new post (handling a new subject) in a week or so, would that be OK with you?

    Regards,

    debunker.

     

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Discussion between Debunker & Hassan
     Reply #5 - January 22, 2010, 05:56 PM

    Hi Debunker,

    I will be keeping my posts relatively brief. I hope this isn't a problem.

    Yes, of course you can raise any issues you want.

    Regarding the example you gave of the diabetic who refused to accept she had diabetes and refused medication. Whatever her reasons for doing that, she clearly needs help and not punishment.

    Just as those who you say have; murdered the truth so they can believe a lie. Such a person clearly needs help, not eternal torture.

    Bottom line - it simply makes no sense to eternally torture anyone - no matter what they have done. Nor does it make any sense to create people destined for eternal torture!

    You say you find it mind boggling that anyone can believe God's existence cannot be established beyond doubt.

    I find it mind boggling that anyone can believe God would create people for eternal torture. (But I certainly wouldn't say they deserve eternal torture for believing that!)

    Peace,

    Hassan.
  • Re: Discussion between Debunker & Hassan
     Reply #6 - January 22, 2010, 09:30 PM

    Thanks Hassan for your response.

    Next week, I'll raise another issue you brought up in your videos. See ya then.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »