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 Topic: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims

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  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #210 - September 15, 2009, 05:32 PM
    Quote from: DH on September 15, 2009, 03:29 PM
    Which proves my point about the dangers of acquiring ANY kind of a "Muslim" identity - particuarly when it is a person's ONLY identity.


    But I never became an extremist - So what is your point?

    Just like the majority of Muslims I interpreted Islam in a peaceful way. I had non-Muslim friends, was a good neighbour, gave in charity and helped old ladies cross the road!

    Why do you have a problem with the vast majority of ordinary Muslims?

    Why do you want them evicted from "your" country?

    Can't you see that you are demonising many ordinary and decent people?

    By all means criticise Islam (In case you hadn't noticed I have a channel devoted to that) - why do you have to contribute to the hatred towards ordinary Muslims.

    People like my brother, sisters, my daughter and many other members of my family, friends and former colleagues who have never harmed you?
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #211 - September 15, 2009, 05:37 PM
    Quote from: DH on September 15, 2009, 03:29 PM

    It ain't going to happen.



    Famous last words.

    'It's a proven fact that fanatics cannot keep enthusiasm levels up enough for one obsession over a period of time and will inevitably drift towards another ideology, sometimes one that completely contradicts their previous position.'
    Puta, OUP, 1972

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #212 - September 15, 2009, 05:39 PM
    Quote from: DH on September 15, 2009, 01:34 PM

    You may have onstensibly left Islam, Hassan, but you still retain a large part of the hallmark victimized, "unjustly targeted" Muslim mentality.


    LOL... yes, "You can take the Muslim out of Islam but not the Islam out of the Muslim"..

    No matter what I do - I am no good in your eyes - unless I spit venom at my family and all decent moderate Muslims.
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #213 - September 15, 2009, 10:19 PM
    Quote from: DH on September 15, 2009, 02:37 PM
    So the only difference between a "moderate" Muslim and an "extremist" is that the latter actually engages in killing. So those guys carrying placcards like "slaughter those who insult Islam" can be classed as "moderates" as long as they don't actually DO any slaughtering. Correct?

    Not correct. I just gave one example of how to distinguish the two. I didn't give a comprehensive list.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #214 - September 16, 2009, 09:17 AM
    Hey DH, got another definition for you. How about "one of the characteristics of a moderate Muslim is that they do not think people should be killed for leaving Islam"? There are Muslims like that around, you know. One of them signed that petition I pointed you to. Just wondering if you have signed it yourself yet. I mean it'd be kind of funny if one of the evil Muslim horde was more concerned about basic human rights than you were.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #215 - September 16, 2009, 12:47 PM
    +1
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #216 - September 17, 2009, 03:58 PM
    Quote from: brainyape on September 15, 2009, 05:22 PM
    There are good stuff in the Quran too,


    One example please

    Quote
    that are enough for many Muslims to overlook the violent stuff.


    Unfortunately "Allah" regards "overlooking" bits of his "books" as a grave offense punishable by hell:

    Then is it only a part of the Book that you believe in, and do you reject the rest? but what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life?- and on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For Allah is not unmindful of what you do. (Koran 2:85)

    Therefore a "Muslim" who claims to reject ON PRINCIPLE the violent stuff in the Koran is either:

    a) ignorant of those verses

    b) lying to themselves

    c) lying to the non-Muslims

    d) a Koran-defined hell-bound hypocrite (munafiq)

    Perhaps you could give your estimate of the percentage of the total Muslim population living in non-Muslim countries that belongs to each of the above four categories

    Quote
    but where? It [Koran verse 9:33] doesn't say the world . Does it? For someone who considers this to be only for the land of Arabia

     
    Go to your nearest mosque at Friday prayer and persuade the assembled congregation to close the place and emigrate to the Arabian peninsula on the basis that Allah only meant Islam to be practiced and propagated within the confines that land area. If on the way there you happen upon a behijabbed Muslim female tell her to remove her Islamic garb because Allah did not intend for it to be worn outside Arabia.  If you can persuade THEM of this you'll have persuaded me.

    Quote
    that's already done. In fact I've seen Muslims on youtube who thinks this doesn't apply to places captured after the death of the prophet.


    And how exactly do they rationalize this position?
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #217 - September 17, 2009, 04:03 PM
    Quote from: DH on September 17, 2009, 03:58 PM
    One example please


    Click on the link in allat's signature. It's to the "Skeptic's Annotated Quran". It mostly notes all the fucked up shit in the Quran and the Bible, but it does also note the good parts.
    fuck you
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #218 - September 17, 2009, 04:10 PM
    These days you don't find many Christians stoning their disobedient children or getting worried about wearing clothes mad of mixed fibres, although you do find quite a few using the bible as an excuse for homophobia.

    The good thing, from my POV, is the huge numbers of Christians who are essentially apathetic about their religion. I have no reason to suppose that there aren't the Muslim equivalents.

    Obviously, I would greatly prefer everyone to think hard about things and discard religion altogether. But it isn't going to happen, so let's rejoice in the next best thing, apathy combined with a weak adherence to a religion that helps define people's cultural identity. If anything will save the world, it will be apathy.

    The only dangerous thing is that the apathists are emotionally attached to their religious background and can be roused by the right sort of oratory.

    I am as strongly against political Islam as anyone, DH. I think it is underrated and dangerous, but you won't recruit supporters to your cause by attacking harmless ordinary Muslims.
    Free speech is the source of most other freedoms
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #219 - September 17, 2009, 04:12 PM
    So DH, your position is very clear. Apart from ranting on internet forums though, do you do anything else from preventing this awful calamity from falling upon us? You seem a very frightened person, not to mention somewhat irrational and paranoid
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #220 - September 17, 2009, 04:37 PM
    Quote from: brainyape on September 15, 2009, 05:25 PM
    As I said, you still seem to be not able to understand what the deluded are capable of.


    I understand fully. If all "Muslims" were self-deluders all of the time and could be relied on to be so in perpetuity there would not be a problem. That we are having this discussion is testament to the fact that this ideal state of affairs is not the current reality and all the evidence overwhelmingly suggests that it never will be.  Furthermore, all the evidence suggests that the self-deluders are neither willing nor able to seriously counter those whose ultimate aim is to shariaize the entire world by hook and by crook. Indeed they are facilitating  shariaist goals by helping persuade the non-Muslim societies within which they are embedded that Islam per se is not the problem, just a so-called "extremist", so-called "interpretation". On the basis of this fallacy the basic framework of a sharia state (imposing mosques, Islamic schools, hijab, halal food, polygamy) is steadily being constructed in the west - with your approval!


    BTW how do you distinguish a self-deluding selective Koran verse rejector and someone who CLAIMS to hold that position but is lying?

    Quote
    Now, with plenty of open critcism of the religion thanks to the Internet, isn't it also likely that they might end up on this site?


    Where, rather than try and persuade them to renounce Islam altogether, you will reassure them that their self deluding "interpretation" of the Koran is OK by you and you have no problem whatsoever with them seeking to convert non-Muslims to their fallacious "version"!
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #221 - September 17, 2009, 05:03 PM
    Quote from: DH on September 17, 2009, 04:37 PM
    I understand fully. If all "Muslims" were self-deluders all of the time and could be relied on to be so in perpetuity there would not be a problem. That we are having this discussion is testament to the fact that this ideal state of affairs is not the current reality and all the evidence overwhelmingly suggests that it never will be.  Furthermore, all the evidence suggests that the self-deluders are neither willing nor able to seriously counter those whose ultimate aim is to shariaize the entire world by hook and by crook. Indeed they are facilitating  shariaist goals by helping persuade the non-Muslim societies within which they are embedded that Islam per se is not the problem, just a so-called "extremist", so-called "interpretation". On the basis of this fallacy the basic framework of a sharia state (imposing mosques, Islamic schools, hijab, halal food, polygamy) is steadily being constructed in the west - with your approval!


    BTW how do you distinguish a self-deluding selective Koran verse rejector and someone who CLAIMS to hold that position but is lying?

    Where, rather than try and persuade them to renounce Islam altogether, you will reassure them that their self deluding "interpretation" of the Koran is OK by you and you have no problem whatsoever with them seeking to convert non-Muslims to their fallacious "version"!


    You think the UK government and EU will really let this country turn into a shariah state. I really don't think the building of mosques and women wearing hijab is signifying to me that the West is accepting Shari'ah.
    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #222 - September 17, 2009, 05:04 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on September 15, 2009, 05:32 PM
    But I never became an extremist


    Someone who wilfully works in an Islamic school which enforces sharia on its students is not a "moderate" in my book by any stretch of the imagination. Nor is someone who sends their children to such a school. Nor is someone who chooses to wear Islamic dress where they do not feel under any threat of punishment not to. Nor is someone who makes their young daughter dress in that manner.

    Quote
    Just like the majority of Muslims I interpreted Islam in a peaceful way. I had non-Muslim friends, was a good neighbour, gave in charity and helped old ladies cross the road!


    And ultimately decided you were living a lie and renounced Islam which is what you should be encouraging your still-Muslim relatives to do.

    Quote
    Why do you have a problem with the vast majority of ordinary Muslims?


    I have a problem with the claim that "the vast majority" of Muslims are "moderate" - particlarly when some polls have suggested pro-sharia sentiments in large MAJORITIES. I have a problem with the ease with which supposed "moderates" like Muhammad Bouyeri - murderer of Theo Van Gogh - can become so-called "extremists".
     


    Quote
    Can't you see that you are demonising many ordinary and decent people?


    No I can't. Explain how this is so.


    Quote
    why do you have to contribute to the hatred towards ordinary Muslims.


    Where have I done that?

    Quote
    People like my brother, sisters, my daughter and many other members of my family, friends and former colleagues who have never harmed you?


    My views are, unlike yours, not clouded by love for your still-Muslim relatives. I dare you to say to your still Muslim/ relatives/friends/former colleagues etc that their precious "prophet" was a child molestor, thief, assassin and mass murderer. Could you? If not, why?

    The ku klux klan has never harmed me. I am sure the vast majority of British National Party members has never engaged in racist violence against members of ethnic minorities. I should therefore welcome the existence of such organizations?
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #223 - September 17, 2009, 05:07 PM
    Quote from: Jack Torrance on September 17, 2009, 04:12 PM
    So DH, your position is very clear. Apart from ranting on internet forums though, do you do anything else from preventing this awful calamity from falling upon us? You seem a very frightened person, not to mention somewhat irrational and paranoid


    Do you think I could be displaying signs of "Islamophobia"?
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #224 - September 17, 2009, 05:21 PM
    Quote from: Heyjustlooking on September 17, 2009, 05:03 PM
    You think the UK government and EU will really let this country turn into a shariah state.


    I think the UK and EU are run by idiots when it comes to Islam. According to Geert Wilders:

    "(One) Minister Donner believes that Sharia law should be capable of being introduced in the Netherlands if the majority want it. Minister Vogelaar babbles about the future Netherlands as a country with a Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition, and that she aims to help Islam take root in Dutch society. In saying this, the Minister shows that she has obviously gone stark raving mad. She is betraying Dutch culture and insulting Dutch citizens."

    And what of the UN?:

    "On the 24th of November 2008, the UN passed a draft resolution against defaming religion. It was sponsored by the 57-member Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC)."

    Now what do you think the OIC means by "defaming religion"? Reciting passages from the Qur'an saying Jews, Christians and Polytheists will burn in hell forever?

    Quote
    I really don't think the building of mosques and women wearing hijab is signifying to me that the West is accepting Shari'ah.


    How do you define "sharia" exactly?
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #225 - September 17, 2009, 05:47 PM
    Get a Muslim friend. No, really. I mean it.
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #226 - September 17, 2009, 06:07 PM
    Quote from: DH on September 17, 2009, 05:21 PM
    I think the UK and EU are run by idiots when it comes to Islam. According to Geert Wilders:

    "(One) Minister Donner believes that Sharia law should be capable of being introduced in the Netherlands if the majority want it. Minister Vogelaar babbles about the future Netherlands as a country with a Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition, and that she aims to help Islam take root in Dutch society. In saying this, the Minister shows that she has obviously gone stark raving mad. She is betraying Dutch culture and insulting Dutch citizens."

    And what of the UN?:

    "On the 24th of November 2008, the UN passed a draft resolution against defaming religion. It was sponsored by the 57-member Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC)."

    Now what do you think the OIC means by "defaming religion"? Reciting passages from the Qur'an saying Jews, Christians and Polytheists will burn in hell forever?

    How do you define "sharia" exactly?


    lol ACCORDING to geert wilders. I firmly object to the UN passing a draft resolution against defaationof religion since we should all have the right to expression and criticise anything. However just because it was sponsored by the OIC does not mean it gives Islam exclusive rights from criticism - it implies all religion. I'll reiterate I am aginst the resolution. Also iti is a draft resolution, it has not been made into legislation in Europe.

    However your assertion that Muslims are steadily trying to turn the west into an Islamic state is a long way from the truth my friend. According to a survey the majority of UK Muslims do not even want to see Shariah in this country. I hope your brain does not get consumed by the far-rights political propaganda.
    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #227 - September 17, 2009, 06:15 PM
    Quote from: Heyjustlooking on September 17, 2009, 06:07 PM
    However your assertion that Muslims are steadily trying to turn the west into an Islamic state is a long way from the truth my friend. According to a survey the majority of UK Muslims do not even want to see Shariah in this country. I hope your brain does not get consumed by the far-rights political propaganda.


    According to a survey, 40% of British Muslims want Shariah! whistling2

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html

    Agreed, its 10% short of a majority, but given the negative connotations Shariah has acquired in non Muslim eyes in the West & Britain, had I been a Muslim & wanted to live free from any discrimination, I'd have definitely told pollsters that I oppose Shariah even if I supported it! That'd only be the wise thing to say!

    After all, Muslims do want to continue to live in Britain, have kids,get welfare, get spouses from  their home country & want more of their relatives & friends to possibly immigrate, openly saying I want Shariah would jeopardize those chances-given how people have rightly identified it with oppression of women & anachronistic punishments!

    Inspite of that, 40% could tell pollsters that they want Shariah! How many have reasoned on the lines I spelt out & chosen to deny this, inspite of wanting Shariah? Huh?
    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #228 - September 17, 2009, 06:32 PM
    Quote from: DH on September 17, 2009, 05:04 PM
    Someone who wilfully works in an Islamic school which enforces sharia on its students is not a "moderate" in my book by any stretch of the imagination.


    Enforcing Shari'ah? We followed British Law. No-one enforced Shari'ah Law?  Everyone there was obviously aware that we lived in a secular non-muslim country and we respected and upheld it's laws. (And as it happens quite a few of us did not believe in the Shari'ah Law even in an Islamic State.)

    It just goes to show that to you ANY practising Muslim is an 'extremist' in your eyes.

    Quote from: DH on September 17, 2009, 05:04 PM
    Nor is someone who sends their children to such a school. Nor is someone who chooses to wear Islamic dress


    Again - ALL practising Muslims are "extremists" in your eyes.

    Quote from: DH on September 17, 2009, 05:04 PM
    where they do not feel under any threat of punishment not to.


    What are you talking about here?

    Quote from: DH on September 17, 2009, 05:04 PM
    Nor is someone who makes their young daughter dress in that manner.

     

    I never forced my daughter to wear Hijab (in fact I used to tell my wife that it was not necessary in Islam.) Some children didn't wear hijab at Islamia School and no-one forced them to wear it.

    Quote from: DH on September 17, 2009, 05:04 PM
    And ultimately decided you were living a lie and renounced Islam which is what you should be encouraging your still-Muslim relatives to do.


    I did not decide I was living a lie - I gained a different perspective, based on pondering on events, reading and studying and I decided to act according to my conscience. I encourage people to learn, read and follow their conscience - and no more. If they want to be Muslims and are peaceful and loving - as most are - good luck to them.

    I encourage you to open your mind and stop lumping all Muslims in one boat.

    Quote from: DH on September 17, 2009, 05:04 PM
    I have a problem with the claim that "the vast majority" of Muslims are "moderate" - particlarly when some polls have suggested pro-sharia sentiments in large MAJORITIES. I have a problem with the ease with which supposed "moderates" like Muhammad Bouyeri - murderer of Theo Van Gogh - can become so-called "extremists".


    Regardless of what you have a problem with - most Muslims are peaceful and law-abiding and you have no need to fear them.
     
    Quote from: DH on September 17, 2009, 05:04 PM
    I dare you to say to your still Muslim/ relatives/friends/former colleagues etc that their precious "prophet" was a child molestor, thief, assassin and mass murderer. Could you? If not, why?


    I have always spoken openly with my family and friends and gone further - I have made public videos criticising Islam.

    What more do I have to do in your eyes to make me a 'good' ex-Muslim?

    Quote from: DH on September 17, 2009, 05:04 PM
    The ku klux klan has never harmed me.


    But they have harmed others - unlike peaceful law-abiding Muslims.

    Quote from: DH on September 17, 2009, 05:04 PM
    I am sure the vast majority of British National Party members has never engaged in racist violence against members of ethnic minorities.


    You'd be wrong then.

    Quote from: DH on September 17, 2009, 05:04 PM
    I should therefore welcome the existence of such organizations?


    I should sincerely hope not.

  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #229 - September 17, 2009, 06:45 PM
    Quote from: Rashna on September 17, 2009, 06:15 PM
    According to a survey, 40% of British Muslims want Shariah! whistling2

    Great 60% don't.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html

    Agreed, its 10% short of a majority, but given the negative connotations Shariah has acquired in non Muslim eyes in the West & Britain, had I been a Muslim & wanted to live free from any discrimination, I'd have definitely told pollsters that I oppose Shariah even if I supported it! That'd only be the wise thing to say!

    Are you a Muslim though? What makes you think you know the mind of a muslim and btw you are generalising Muslims - they all have their own minds too - believe it or not they can think for themselves.

    After all, Muslims do want to continue to live in Britain, have kids,get welfare, get spouses from  their home country & want more of their relatives & friends to possibly immigrate, openly saying I want Shariah would jeopardize those chances-given how people have rightly identified it with oppression of women & anachronistic punishments!

    How many Muslims is my question. For all I know this could be a minority. Saying Muslims you are making a generalistion. A lot immigrating who want thei rrelatives to live here come for a better life free from such harsh laws. Agreed some who come may also want this but you have not shown me evidence for this.



    Inspite of that, 40% could tell pollsters that they want Shariah! How many have reasoned on the lines I spelt out & chosen to deny this, inspite of wanting Shariah? Huh?


    You haven't provided any evidence for your last point. Some may have supported it just for fear of what their Muslim friends or family might think who maybe ultra-religious. The point is 60% from the poll DON'T want shariah.
    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #230 - September 17, 2009, 07:03 PM
    Quote from: Heyjustlooking on September 17, 2009, 06:45 PM
    You haven't provided any evidence for your last point. Some may have supported it just for fear of what their Muslim friends or family might think who maybe ultra-religious. The point is 60% from the poll DON'T want shariah.


    Well, even if I accept your point, some may have supported it just for their Muslim associates sake, some may have refused to openly support it for fear of displeasing Brits as well.

    40-60% is a thin margin you know, Heyjustlooking!

    Shariah includes a lot of things, forced hijab, lashings, stonings, amputations,polygamy, ban on alcohol, talaq laws, death for apostates, ban on women's interfaith marriage, etc!And if Shariah rules, it involves, jizya tax,non Muslims status as dhimmis etc!

    Anyone who knows all that it implies shouldn't support it!

    And 40% is an extremely significant minority!

    Before Russia's Communist Revolution, what % supported the Communist system?
    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #231 - September 18, 2009, 01:22 AM
    Quote from: Rashna on September 17, 2009, 07:03 PM
    Well, even if I accept your point, some may have supported it just for their Muslim associates sake, some may have refused to openly support it for fear of displeasing Brits as well.

    40-60% is a thin margin you know, Heyjustlooking!

    Shariah includes a lot of things, forced hijab, lashings, stonings, amputations,polygamy, ban on alcohol, talaq laws, death for apostates, ban on women's interfaith marriage, etc!And if Shariah rules, it involves, jizya tax,non Muslims status as dhimmis etc!

    Anyone who knows all that it implies shouldn't support it!

    And 40% is an extremely significant minority!

    Before Russia's Communist Revolution, what % supported the Communist system?


    You know there are better ways of communication then just using a condescending tone in your messages Rashna!

    Damn you just get too hyped up sometimes.

    I know what the Shari'ah includes Rashna but thanks 4 insulting my knowledge and intelligence.

    40%-60% is a thin margin?  I'll admit 20% difference isn't huge but its not exactly thin!

    I'll agree with you that 40% of the Muslim population is huge but how much of the general population does the Muslim population constitute? like 2%.

    The only forms of Shariah courts that exist in Britain today deal in marriage and divorce and even then not many Muslims use them.

    That's my take on the situation. However I do accept your points but come on I do not think just because there are now halal food shops and mosques being built, constitutes a threat of there being an Islamic revolution in the UK.

    We will see...



    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #232 - September 18, 2009, 06:44 AM
    Quote from: Heyjustlooking on September 18, 2009, 01:22 AM
    You know there are better ways of communication then just using a condescending tone in your messages Rashna!

    Damn you just get too hyped up sometimes.

    I know what the Shari'ah includes Rashna but thanks 4 insulting my knowledge and intelligence.

    40%-60% is a thin margin?  I'll admit 20% difference isn't huge but its not exactly thin!

    I'll agree with you that 40% of the Muslim population is huge but how much of the general population does the Muslim population constitute? like 2%.

    The only forms of Shariah courts that exist in Britain today deal in marriage and divorce and even then not many Muslims use them.

    That's my take on the situation. However I do accept your points but come on I do not think just because there are now halal food shops and mosques being built, constitutes a threat of there being an Islamic revolution in the UK.

    We will see...







    Well, sorry if I've used a condescending tone. Yes,20% difference isn't very thin, had only 10% of the population wanted Shariah, like in Turkey, it'd be thin.Btw, when polls show that around 10% of the population want Shariah in Turkey, there are speculations that some people aren't revealing their true intentions of wanting Shariah to the pollsters, coz the Turkish Republic & military are so against Shariah, which is where I got my idea that a same thing maybe happening amongst British Muslims.

    Yes, today Shariah is starting off with only marriage & divorce cases for a few, but who could've imagined any Shariah 20 years ago?

    Also, Muslims ruled largely unIslamized lands for millennia, which were slowly Islamized & Arabized, they were only around 2% of those nations populations at first.

    So I dunno.


    But well, your guess is as good as mine!
    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #233 - September 18, 2009, 07:33 AM
    Quote from: DH on September 17, 2009, 05:07 PM
    Do you think I could be displaying signs of "Islamophobia"?




    Answer the original question and the we'll move on to your paranoia and the variety of ways it can be treated.
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #234 - September 18, 2009, 03:47 PM
    Quote from: Heyjustlooking on September 18, 2009, 01:22 AM
    The only forms of Shariah courts that exist in Britain today deal in marriage and divorce


    In other words Britain has gone from a situation a few years ago of having NO sharia courts to having sharia courts. In other words sharia has started making inroads into Britain. This is not surprising since wherever a Muslim population establishes itself in strength sharia inevitably rears its ugly head. So what if sharia courts only deal with marriage and divorce? They'd DEAL with apostates if they thought they could get away with it. That is how stealth shariaization works: start in a few "noncontrovertial" areas like divorce just to get the sharia wedge under the door and get the wider non-Muslim population used to the idea of having sharia in their countries. A few years ago over in the UK a "moderate" Muslim organization lobbied the British government to legalize polygamy for Muslims.  Their rationale was that it would enable childless Muslims to have children. Anyone who would fall for that ruse would of course have to be pretty naive.

     
    Quote
    and even then not many Muslims use them.


    More Muslims use them than has hitherto been the case. Therefore the number of Muslims using sharia courts is increasing. The existence of a supposed "vast majority of moderate Muslims" in Britain has failed to prevent this development.
     
    Quote
    That's my take on the situation. However I do accept your points but come on I do not think just because there are now halal food shops and mosques being built, constitutes a threat of there being an Islamic revolution in the UK.


    The Jews and polytheists of Yathrib made that mistake when they  allowed "prophet" Muhammad to settle in their town and allow him to build Islam's first mosque which they doubtless regarded as simply a place of worship rather than a den of subversion and terror planning. There was an Islamic revolution in Afghanistan. If the "vast majority" of Afghans are "moderate" Muslims it shows that a small minority of so-called "extremists" can take power despite being vastly outnumbered by "moderates". Or perhaps the "vast majority" of Afghans are not "moderates" as you or I would undertand the term. The existence  long before the advent of the Taliban of large numbers of Burkha'd women would seem to suggest this.
    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #235 - September 18, 2009, 03:53 PM
    There's a big difference between the strength of the institutions present in 7th century Arabia or a failed state like Afghanistan, and a modern secular democracy like the UK. 

    Also, the Shariah courts thing is exaggerated, (even though I don't agree with them being allowed at all).  They've been allowed under the Arbitration Act since the mid 90s along with any other form of arbitration freely chosen by the two parties to any civil dispute.  They're not that big a deal.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #236 - September 18, 2009, 03:58 PM
    Its okay DH, only two sorts of people are respected on these forums. One are ex Muslims who nevertheless think that all religions are equally bullshit & pen Hossannas on "tolerant Muslims" a future "Islamic reform," & the evils of other religions-real & exaggerrated.

    Others are non ex Muslims-mostly atheists & agnosts who have left other religions, who again think that all religiom, not just Islam is bullshit & who take an almost personal interest in an Islamic reform & special care not to alienate "tolerant Muslims."

    If you don't fit into these categories, things aren't very pleasant for you.

    I am an ex Muslim agnostic, cultural Zoroastrian, I too think Islam is probably the worst religion out there-in terms of its founder, theology, current practice, ability to reform etc. I think more of an effort should be invested by ex  Muslims & never been Muslims to encourage other Muslims to come out of that faith, other faiths nowhere have these ugly factors in one.

    This attitude just doesn't gel well with the members here, you have to say all religion is bullshit, all evidence to the contrary be damned.
    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #237 - September 18, 2009, 03:59 PM
    Quote from: DH on September 18, 2009, 03:47 PM
    In other words Britain has gone from a situation a few years ago of having NO sharia courts to having sharia courts. In other words sharia has started making inroads into Britain. This is not surprising since wherever a Muslim population establishes itself in strength sharia inevitably rears its ugly head. So what if sharia courts only deal with marriage and divorce? They'd DEAL with apostates if they thought they could get away with it. That is how stealth shariaization works: start in a few "noncontrovertial" areas like divorce just to get the sharia wedge under the door and get the wider non-Muslim population used to the idea of having sharia in their countries.

    Sounds like you've studied the "stealth shariaisation" of western democracies extensively. Can you point us to any peer-reviewed papers on this undoubtedly well-recognised subdivision of the social sciences? Or are you just making shit up?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #238 - September 18, 2009, 04:01 PM
    Quote
    This attitude just doesn't gel well with the members here, you have to say all religion is bullshit, all evidence to the contrary be damned.


    You don't have to say anything at all, that's nonsense.  If you voice an opinion that others disagree with, they have the right to argue with you, there's no point in whining that you're being unfairly treated just because your opinions are in the minority.  As I already pointed out to you, freedom of speech works both ways.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Clarifying the Council's position: Against Political Islam not Muslims
     Reply #239 - September 18, 2009, 04:06 PM
    Quote from: Rashna on September 18, 2009, 03:58 PM
    Its okay DH, only two sorts of people are respected on these forums. One are ex Muslims who nevertheless think that all religions are equally bullshit & pen Hossannas on "tolerant Muslims" a future "Islamic reform," & the evils of other religions-real & exaggerrated.

    Others are non ex Muslims-mostly atheists & agnosts who have left other religions, who again think that all religiom, not just Islam is bullshit & who take an almost personal interest in an Islamic reform & special care not to alienate "tolerant Muslims."

    If you don't fit into these categories, things aren't very pleasant for you.

    I am an ex Muslim agnostic, cultural Zoroastrian, I too think Islam is probably the worst religion out there-in terms of its founder, theology, current practice, ability to reform etc. I think more of an effort should be invested by ex  Muslims & never been Muslims to encourage other Muslims to come out of that faith, other faiths nowhere have these ugly factors in one.

    This attitude just doesn't gel well with the members here, you have to say all religion is bullshit, all evidence to the contrary be damned.


    What kind of person spends so much time posting on a forum just to bitch about how bad it is with the same erroneous arguments that have been repeatedly refuted?
    fuck you
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