AL-ROOM (Quranic prophecy about the Romans)

1« Previous thread | Next thread »
- King Koopa
- Ex-Muslim
- Your Mom's Favorite Lover
- offline
AL-ROOM (Quranic prophecy about the Romans)
OP - December 06, 2009, 05:35 PM

What are your thoughts on this:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/quran/03001.htm

Sūra 30: Rūm, or The Roman Empire - verses 2-6

2. The Roman Empire has been defeated--

3. In a land close by; but they, (even) after (this) defeat of theirs, will soon be victorious-

4. Within a few years. With Allah is the Decision, in the past and in the Future: on that Day shall the Believers rejoice-

5. With the help of Allah. He helps whom He will, and He is exalted in might, most merciful.

6. (It is) the promise of Allah. Never does Allah depart from His promise: but most men understand not.
- Cheetah
- Global Moderator
- offline
Re: AL-ROOM (Quranic prophecy about the Romans)
Reply #1 - December 06, 2009, 05:45 PM

The Roman Empire was already crumbling in the West when the Qur'an was written. Wasn't much of a prophecy there to say the least.

"Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny." - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
- Cool Canadian
- Ex-Muslim
- Don't mess with raccoon Mario
- offline
Re: AL-ROOM (Quranic prophecy about the Romans)
Reply #2 - December 06, 2009, 06:34 PM

Its not ROOM, Its RUM, as in Cuban Rum

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
~Sir Richard Francis Burton

"I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
~RIBS
- King Koopa
- Ex-Muslim
- Your Mom's Favorite Lover
- offline
Re: AL-ROOM (Quranic prophecy about the Romans)
Reply #3 - December 06, 2009, 06:37 PM

No doubt. But I think the other part of the prophecy is the soon after will be victorious.

My issue with this is that the prophet wasn't supposed to perform miracles or prophecies, yet this is a prophecy? And not a very clear one either, it says in a land nearby, not what land, the romans will be defeated and then soon after will be victorius, doesn't really say how many years. It's not clear wether it's one battle or an entire war. Doesn't say who they
are fighting either, I'm guessing the Persians (Sassanians?)

When I was more religious I thought that this was a very interesting prophecy, seeing how the Romans were defeated, but I didn't pay attention to the short after they will be victorious. It did seem like a valid point whenver anybody claimed the divnity of the Quran.

I don't know... what were you thoughts about this verse when you were a Muslim? How does that view compare with the view you have now?
- King Koopa
- Ex-Muslim
- Your Mom's Favorite Lover
- offline
Re: AL-ROOM (Quranic prophecy about the Romans)
Reply #4 - December 06, 2009, 06:38 PM

Quote from: Cool Canadian on December 06, 2009, 06:34 PM
Its not ROOM, Its RUM, as in Cuban Rum

Actually as far as I know it is Al Room, it's an elongated vowel.
- Cheetah
- Global Moderator
- offline
Re: AL-ROOM (Quranic prophecy about the Romans)
Reply #5 - December 06, 2009, 06:40 PM

Empires fight battles the whole time - some they win, some they lose. As I said, not much of a prophecy, especially coming from someone who knew a bit about battles and empire building himself.

"Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny." - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
- King Koopa
- Ex-Muslim
- Your Mom's Favorite Lover
- offline
Re: AL-ROOM (Quranic prophecy about the Romans)
Reply #6 - December 06, 2009, 06:44 PM

When was this verse revealed do you know?
- Cheetah
- Global Moderator
- offline
Re: AL-ROOM (Quranic prophecy about the Romans)
Reply #7 - December 06, 2009, 06:52 PM

No idea.

"Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny." - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
- Cool Canadian
- Ex-Muslim
- Don't mess with raccoon Mario
- offline
Re: AL-ROOM (Quranic prophecy about the Romans)
Reply #8 - December 06, 2009, 07:15 PM

Quote from: BlackDog on December 06, 2009, 06:38 PM
Actually as far as I know it is Al Room, it's an elongated vowel.

Oh I know lol. I was just joking

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
~Sir Richard Francis Burton

"I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
~RIBS
- King Koopa
- Ex-Muslim
- Your Mom's Favorite Lover
- offline
Re: AL-ROOM (Quranic prophecy about the Romans)
Reply #9 - December 06, 2009, 07:19 PM

*phew* that's a relief
- RIBS
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: AL-ROOM (Quranic prophecy about the Romans)
Reply #10 - December 06, 2009, 07:27 PM

Quote from: BlackDog on December 06, 2009, 06:44 PM
When was this verse revealed do you know?

It could have well been revealed some 15-20 years after Mo's death. Revealed to Othman that is. For all I know Othman (the 3rd Calif) was the one who was in charge of writing/collecting/editing the Quran. I have my doubts about the whole Quran thing now after reading that the 4 califs have been assasinated in political strugles.

...
- King Koopa
- Ex-Muslim
- Your Mom's Favorite Lover
- offline
Re: AL-ROOM (Quranic prophecy about the Romans)
Reply #11 - December 06, 2009, 07:43 PM

@Ribs

Very good point, I was just about to say something similar.

First, read Wikipedia article (I know, I know, Wiki not accurate and so on but it serves as a place where one can get a summary of differing opinions)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith_of_the_prediction_in_Sura_al-Rum#cite_note-Azmy-0

According to that article it was Meccan hadith, not sure how that is asserted, problems are of course with the way the Quran was compiled, ie not written down in the form that we have it today nor recited by its entirety by a hafiz during the prophets lifetime. It was compiled in finality by Uthman, who burned all copies not similar to his copy. Also, the problem with hadiths being they were compiled 200 years afterward.

The timeline in the wiki article shows peace negotiations began AD 628, the time line of this verse is AD 615 (BH 7). That is 13 years, and I am being generous here, because it was in year 630 the war was conclusively and finally ended between the two empires.

There are some other issues, how did the Meccans get news from outside Hijaz? It would mean they weren't as encapsulated as one is lead to believe. Obviously, its an easy assertion to dismiss seeing how Mecca was a famous site of pilgrimage and trading. News would spread. Mohamed would know about the state of the empires. This however does not match Cheetahs point about empire building and conquests.

Other issue is these scholars interpreting some of the words to mean what they want. Like low lands instead of near lands, and the actual time it would happen, which according to the hadiths and scholars the maximum is 9 and Mohamed said 7. It was 13, or am I wrong?

Thirdly, this was a Meccan revelation. The believers would rejoice. Of course they would, Christians are our cousins, are they not? But this jovial mentality is somewhat contradictory to the Medinan verses, condemning Christians to poll tax and murder, amongst other things like eternal hell.

EDIT
Actually, the prediction in accordance to amount of years can be correct:

AD 622 (AH 1) Emperor Heraclius takes the field and defeats Persians in the Battle of Issus.

That was a victory, 7 years after the prediction. Within the 9 years prediction.
- Omaar Khayaam
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: AL-ROOM (Quranic prophecy about the Romans)
Reply #12 - December 06, 2009, 07:53 PM

Quote from: RIBS on December 06, 2009, 07:27 PM
It could have well been revealed some 15-20 years after Mo's death. Revealed to Othman that is. For all I know Othman (the 3rd Calif) was the one who was in charge of writing/collecting/editing the Quran. I have my doubts about the whole Quran thing now after reading that the 4 califs have been assasinated in political strugles.

I have thought about this for a while. But it's a wild conjecture as far as we are concerned. There would have to be some serious evidence to prove this point, otherwise we are flogging a dead horse.
- King Koopa
- Ex-Muslim
- Your Mom's Favorite Lover
- offline
Re: AL-ROOM (Quranic prophecy about the Romans)
Reply #13 - December 06, 2009, 07:58 PM

Is it really? Please provide me with proof that the Quran was compiled in it's entirety, in the form we have today, and that this was done during the prophet's lifetime.

Might want to read this article, some Sunnis sometimes charge Shias with believing that the Quran has been corrupted, Tahreef.

It begins with:

Whilst we find hadiths in both Shia and Sunni text implying that there might be some corruption of the Quran such traditions are rejected as unreliable and there remains a consensus among Shia and Ahle Sunnah about the completeness, purity and authority of the Holy Quran. Whilst this should not therefore be a topic of debate, we have still chosen to publish an article on this topic for two reasons:

1. To clarify the na?ve minds who read such traditions and fall into confusion.
2. Nasibi attacks on the Shia belief in the completeness of Quran due to some weak traditions recorded in our text (Just as there in the authentic Sunni text).

We wish to make it clear from the outset that we had on numerous occasions shelved plans to publish this, since we feared the material being used as propaganda fodder for Jews and Christians. Unfortunately since such a fear didn?t hinder them in the slightest, they shamelessly continued producing materials on the Shia ?belief? in tahreef we were forced to refute them by highlighting tahreef traditions from the pen of the Sahaba and scholars they venerate.

http://www.answering-ansar.org/answers/tahreef/en/index.php
- allat
- Euphoria
- Administrator
- offline
Re: AL-ROOM (Quranic prophecy about the Romans)
Reply #14 - December 06, 2009, 08:25 PM

It was probably just pep talk to rally the masses. Not a prophecy, just chest thumping.

"Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
- Iblis
- Ex-Muslim
- betta rekognize
- offline
Re: AL-ROOM (Quranic prophecy about the Romans)
Reply #15 - December 06, 2009, 08:39 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraclius#War_against_Persia

As a prophecy it is actually quite accurate and could be a sign of the prophet's foresight.

The "Roman Empire has been defeated" part is a direct reference to this historical event that happened during the Prophet's career. At the time the Sassanid Empire and the Eastern Roman Empire had been at war for many decades. However during that moment the Sassanid's gained major victories and for the first time reached all the way as far as the Roman capital of Constantinople.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine-Sassanid_Wars#Climax

Quote
A major counter-attack led by Heraclius two years later was decisively defeated outside Antioch by Shahrbaraz and Shahin and the Roman position collapsed; the Persians devastated parts of Asia Minor, and captured Chalcedon on the Bosporus.[59] Over the following decade the Persians were able to conquer Palestine and Egypt (by mid-621 the whole province was in their hands[60]) and to devastate Anatolia,[61] while the Avars and Slavs took advantage of the situation to overrun the Balkans, bringing the Roman Empire to the brink of destruction.

This was a big deal among the pagan meccans. When the news came of the Romans defeated the pagan Meccans were ecstatic and very happy. Reason is that north of the Hejaz was a powerful *christian* Arab kingdom known as the Ghassanids who were allied with the Romans/Byzantines and were also rivals of the Meccans. So the Quraysh very much were rooting for the Sassanid side.

Now the part where the Quran goes "Soon they will be victorious" is a prophecy directly linked to the Byzantine counter attack that totally defeated the Sassanid Persians and rolled back all their conquests. This was led by the Roman emperor Heraclius it was a devastating defeat for the Sassanids - especially considering they had previously been so victorious.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraclius#Empire_strikes_back

Quote
With the Persian war effort disintegrating, Heraclius was able to bring the Gokturks of the Western Turkic Khaganate, Ziebel, who invaded Persian Transcaucasia. Heraclius also exploited divisions within the Persian Empire, keeping the Persian general Shahrbaraz neutral by convincing him that Khosrau had grown jealous of him and ordered his execution. Late in 627 he launched a winter offensive into Mesopotamia, where, despite the desertion of his Turkish allies, he defeated the Persians under Rhahzadh at the Battle of Nineveh.[27] Continuing south along the Tigris he sacked Khosrau's great palace at Dastagird and was only prevented from attacking Ctesiphon by the destruction of the bridges on the Nahrawan Canal. Discredited by this series of disasters, Khosrau was overthrown and killed in a coup led by his son Kavadh II, who at once sued for peace, agreeing to withdraw from all occupied territories.[28] In 629 Heraclius restored the True Cross to Jerusalem in a majestic ceremony.[12][29][30]

So if this was a prophecy by Muhammad it was a damned good one. Because initially the tides had turned so badly against the Romans/Byzantines that no one could predict they would make such a great come back and as the prophet predicted the did make a stunning comeback and totally pwned the Persians.

Of course this is all assuming the Prophet actually made this prediction. I personally don't believe he did, as mentioned I believe this was something added on later by the Caliphs since there was a real dearth of miracles or prophecies in the Quran.

Also it's interesting to note that these two historical events were the conclusion of a devastating war that drained the manpower and wealth of both the Sassanid and Roman empires. Making them, especially the persians, easy prey during the soon to come Arab conquests.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.
- King Koopa
- Ex-Muslim
- Your Mom's Favorite Lover
- offline
Re: AL-ROOM (Quranic prophecy about the Romans)
Reply #16 - December 06, 2009, 09:48 PM

Thanks Kafirist. You seem to know a good deal about Islamic history
- Omaar Khayaam
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: AL-ROOM (Quranic prophecy about the Romans)
Reply #17 - December 06, 2009, 10:33 PM

Quote
Of course this is all assuming the Prophet actually made this prediction. I personally don't believe he did, as mentioned I believe this was something added on later by the Caliphs since there was a real dearth of miracles or prophecies in the Quran.

Now we are talking. If you said that to the muslims, you would be swiftly dismissed as someone trying to avoid the obvious and making unsupported conjectures. You could be treading on some dodgy ground by making such a claim and not being able to support it. That's assuming you have not already done some digging?
- Iblis
- Ex-Muslim
- betta rekognize
- offline
Re: AL-ROOM (Quranic prophecy about the Romans)
Reply #18 - December 06, 2009, 10:38 PM

Naw, I haven't. It is really just speculation. BUT.. the fact is the first Quran ever formed *was* formed after the Prophet's death and this great event had already occured. I think if there was proper research done on the origins and roots of that Surah alone we would find it's first copy only in Uthman's era. But that's a just a hypothesis. Either way the Muslims can claim what they want, they have no scientific proof that any part of the Quran was really written before Uthman commissioned the collection of all material and formation of the Quran. If anything large quantities of the Quran could have simply been fabricated by scholars under his commision.

We can't know this because Muslims do not and have not allowed others to research this matter in a historical and scientific manner.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.
- Omaar Khayaam
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: AL-ROOM (Quranic prophecy about the Romans)
Reply #19 - December 06, 2009, 10:56 PM

Quote from: Kafirist on December 06, 2009, 10:38 PM
Naw, I haven't. It is really just speculation. BUT.. the fact is the first Quran ever formed *was* formed after the Prophet's death and this great event had already occured. I think if there was proper research done on the origins and roots of that Surah alone we would find it's first copy only in Uthman's era. But that's a just a hypothesis. Either way the Muslims can claim what they want, they have no scientific proof that any part of the Quran was really written before Uthman commissioned the collection of all material and formation of the Quran. If anything large quantities of the Quran could have simply been fabricated by scholars under his commision.

We can't know this because Muslims do not and have not allowed others to research this matter in a historical and scientific manner.

Now here i where the contention is. Muslims claim that the transmission of the Quran is oral. The reason why it was written down was to avoid it being lost due to the number of sahabah that were dying in battle. This is the reason why it was written down. One may object to this by saying that those reports were written down after the Quran was compiled, which they were. But the muslims can say that they have hafiz as living testament to this oral transmission. We could argue that the hafiz came about after the compilation and after the warsh schools were established. But arguing on these points is pointless because unless evidence comes to light, then non of our or their claims can be falsified.
- ninurta
- Ninurta the Apostate
- Member
- offline
Re: AL-ROOM (Quranic prophecy about the Romans)
Reply #20 - December 07, 2009, 01:03 PM

Quote from: BlackDog on December 06, 2009, 05:35 PM
What are your thoughts on this:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/quran/03001.htm

Sūra 30: Rūm, or The Roman Empire - verses 2-6

2. The Roman Empire has been defeated--

3. In a land close by; but they, (even) after (this) defeat of theirs, will soon be victorious-

4. Within a few years. With Allah is the Decision, in the past and in the Future: on that Day shall the Believers rejoice-

5. With the help of Allah. He helps whom He will, and He is exalted in might, most merciful.

6. (It is) the promise of Allah. Never does Allah depart from His promise: but most men understand not.

That isn't no prophecy, that is like me saying americans will die tomorrow in afghanistan, its a fact of the current situation that we are at war there. And to be honest, I woulda made a better forecast of things to come than Muhammad, rather than the careful statement they will be defeated (as they were already being defeated constantly) and will be victorious (how careful was he to be sure it came true), I woulda just said its highly likely that Rome will fall.

Also, the romans were defeated plenty of times. My ancestors were some of whom really took a chunk out of their empire, the celts and the germans.

It is not the way you live your life that is important, it is how well you enjoy it that matters.
1« Previous thread | Next thread »