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Theme Changer

 Topic: Beardless Youths

 (Read 19371 times)
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  • Beardless Youths
     OP - December 04, 2009, 01:57 PM

    From Muhammad ibn 'Uthman Adh-Dhahabi's "Al-Kabar" (The Major Sins) [p.117]


    Quote
    Our righteous forefathers took special precautions against mixing socially with handsome boys, considering them to be a greater temptation than women. Some scholars go to the extent of prohibiting a man to be alone with a young boy in a house or a bathhouse, on the analogy of the prohibition of being in privacy with a strange (non-Mahrem) woman. The Prophet (SAW) said: "When a man is in privacy with a woman, Satan joins them as the third." Now, if there is a beardless youth who is more beautiful than a woman, the temptation from him in privacy may be greater than a woman's, as the evil of homosexuality is definitely much greater than the evil of zina with a woman.

    Sufyan Thawri once entered a bathhouse and then a handsome boy came in. Sufyan called out: "Please take him away from me, for if there is one Satan present when one is in privacy with a woman, there are fifteen Satans present when one is in privacy with a beautiful boy."


    Says a lot about Sufyan Thawri eh?

    Other major sins, if anyone's interested, include such hideous depravity as a slave running away from his master [the 57th major sin], being a cuckhold [the 34th], a woman's bad conduct to her husband (of course) [47th], gambling, backgammon and chess [the 20th]. Murder is the second major sin (after associating anything with Allah) but rape and paedophilia aren't mentioned - most probably because such things didn't exist 1400 years ago.


    The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
  • Re: Beardless Youths
     Reply #1 - December 04, 2009, 02:06 PM

    I wonder if Mo was attracted to beardless men.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Beardless Youths
     Reply #2 - December 04, 2009, 02:10 PM

    Koran 76:19 And round about them will go youths, never altering in age; when thou seest them thou wilt think them to be scattered pearls.

    The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
  • Re: Beardless Youths
     Reply #3 - December 04, 2009, 02:16 PM

    I wonder if Mo was attracted to beardless men.


    Apparently the fifth caliph had a thing for beardless boys/men.

    Mind you, there was a Caliph of Turkey who had a wife but preferred having the company of 'beardless men' Tongue

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Beardless Youths
     Reply #4 - December 04, 2009, 02:26 PM

    I wonder if Mo was attracted to beardless men.


    In this sense the order to grow the beard could be taken as a kind of male hijab, to deflect the gaze of pervy guys who only love you for your supple chin.

    Except that there are hadiths that show that the beard thing was more to look different which is what Fatima Mernissi suggests the hijab was all about as well (Source).

    The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
  • Re: Beardless Youths
     Reply #5 - December 04, 2009, 05:25 PM

    Koran 76:19 And round about them will go youths, never altering in age; when thou seest them thou wilt think them to be scattered pearls.

    I remember that and ayahs like that being a problem. Why is Allah describing young boys? Men aren't into boys (or shouldn't be). I'd rather have big titty women serve me.

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Beardless Youths
     Reply #6 - December 04, 2009, 06:27 PM

    I remember that and ayahs like that being a problem. Why is Allah describing young boys? Men aren't into boys (or shouldn't be). I'd rather have big titty women serve me.

    Well, the Taliban seem to be fond of pederasty. Sooo I guess the Koran has something for everyone. Cheesy

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  • Re: Beardless Youths
     Reply #7 - December 04, 2009, 07:25 PM

    I wouldn't hold it that much against him for being cautious about beardless young men. Fact is he lived at the height of the Islamic middle ages and at this time homoerotic pederasty by older men with younger men was quite common across the board.

    Take this young man for example
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malik_Ayaz

    He was apparently the Sultan Mahmud of Ghazni's gay lover. And they were quite open about it as Mahmud would quite publically express his love and reward his little boy-toy with his own cities and castles and what not.

    In many ways back then the Muslim world was a lot more liberal and sexually open than nowadays.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Beardless Youths
     Reply #8 - December 04, 2009, 07:41 PM

    It kind of depends on what Sufyan Thawri meant by "young boy", his age, his ability to consent etc.

    Incidentally, Hakim Bey has apparently written for NAMBLA.

    The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
  • Re: Beardless Youths
     Reply #9 - December 04, 2009, 07:44 PM

    Well when it comes to issues of pedophilia with common people of the past (ie not the prophet of allah) I do hold a morally relativist and contextual position. Some of the greatest greek philosophers and thinkers of classical Greece were also probably kiddie fiddlers. Many great Roman emperors more than just fucked little boys, but also their sisters! Shit was crazy back then.

    Sure we can laugh at them, but to judge them by our standards is not really meaningful.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Beardless Youths
     Reply #10 - December 04, 2009, 07:55 PM

    Very interesting links Kafirist. Afro Just wondering, can someone provide me with links on Medieval Muslim lesbians?

    There ought to be lesbians too, I've read in some book from my school library that women in huge Sultan's harems had love affairs with each other.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Beardless Youths
     Reply #11 - December 04, 2009, 08:03 PM

    I'm sure there were countless cases of lesbianism among Muslim women, especially in the harem, back in those days. However, in all my readings of medieval muslim history I have not come across any texts related to it. Which isn't surprising since Muslim history is written by Muslim men and such lesbianism would be deeply private and largely unknown by the clueless males.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Beardless Youths
     Reply #12 - December 04, 2009, 10:13 PM

    women are great at keeping secrets too

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  • Re: Beardless Youths
     Reply #13 - December 04, 2009, 10:53 PM

    Well, the Taliban seem to be fond of pederasty. Sooo I guess the Koran has something for everyone. Cheesy

    Yep, this videos shows a few of them.  I can see how Islam can make a nation more likely to produce pederasts.  There is so much male/female sexual repression in a talebanised nation that you get the opposite problem!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu2YzHY8VIU

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  • Re: Beardless Youths
     Reply #14 - December 04, 2009, 11:07 PM

    It is worth pointing out that the term homosexuality does not occur in the Qur'an. But the Qur'an does mention "men who have no need of women" (24:30). We are not explicitly told who these men are but we can guess: either they have no sexual desire at all or they desire other men. And if such men are "mindful of God" they could, in the hereafter, be in "gardens and in bliss, rejoicing in their Lord's gifts" which include, amongst other things, "devoted youths like hidden pearls" (52:17-24). Elsewhere we are told: "Everlasting youth will attend them - if you could see them, you would think they are scattered pearls" (76:19). There are two points to note here. The positive way male beauty is portrayed; and the fact that no negativity is attached to "men who have no need of women". This suggests to me that wholesale condemnation of homosexuality is against the spirit of the Qur'an.

    Moreover, if it is an integral, natural disposition of certain men not to desire women - which is what science seems to be telling us - then it would be unjust of the Qur'an to condemn them. Indeed, such a condemnation would go against all the overwhelming emphasis on justice and equity that we find in the Qur'an.

    http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/quran/2008/09/homosexuality_part_1.html

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Beardless Youths
     Reply #15 - December 04, 2009, 11:55 PM

    ; and the fact that no negativity is attached to "men who have no need of women". This suggests to me that wholesale condemnation of homosexuality is against the spirit of the Qur'an ..  It is worth pointing out that the term homosexuality does not occur in the Qur'an. But the Qur'an does mention "men who have no need of women" (24:30). We are not explicitly told who these men are but we can guess: either they have no sexual desire at all or they desire other men.

    Or it could be giving the green light to pederasts, we just dont know (although Muhammed's kissing of boys tongues, marrying a child & Taleban culture which seems to be more accepting of pederastry than most other cultures certainly doesnt help the case against)

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  • Re: Beardless Youths
     Reply #16 - December 04, 2009, 11:56 PM

    Waits.. whats this about Muhammad kissing boy's tongues???

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Beardless Youths
     Reply #17 - December 04, 2009, 11:58 PM

    search for 'boys tongue' - there are 4 threads on it..

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  • Re: Beardless Youths
     Reply #18 - December 05, 2009, 12:07 AM

    Maaaaaaaaaan. Just when you think you've heard all the nasty shit from Mo's life... wtf!

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Beardless Youths
     Reply #19 - December 05, 2009, 01:29 AM

    Or it could be giving the green light to pederasts, we just dont know (although Muhammed's kissing of boys tongues, marrying a child & Taleban culture which seems to be more accepting of pederastry than most other cultures certainly doesnt help the case against)


    True. Saying some men have no need of women implies their needs are being fulfilled in some other way.

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Beardless Youths
     Reply #20 - December 05, 2009, 03:23 AM

    True. Saying some men have no need of women implies their needs are being fulfilled in some other way.


    True; the question therefore might have to do with gender roles more than it has to do with homosexuality persay; If one is always the bottom and the other is always the top then there are define roles of one bing submissive to the other, one taking the role of the female thus having a gender role assignment.

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Beardless Youths
     Reply #21 - December 05, 2009, 12:15 PM

    muhammad was tempted by little boys too? Cheesy

    Or maybe I should just throw up becuase the gay prophet is a paedo. To be honest, he shoulda made his religion pro-gay if he was gay, that would be the right thing to do when inventing a religion. Or he probably just did as Ted Haggard did.

    It is not the way you live your life that is important, it is how well you enjoy it that matters.
  • Re: Beardless Youths
     Reply #22 - December 05, 2009, 12:55 PM

    muhammad was tempted by little boys too? Cheesy

    Or maybe I should just throw up becuase the gay prophet is a paedo. To be honest, he shoulda made his religion pro-gay if he was gay, that would be the right thing to do when inventing a religion. Or he probably just did as Ted Haggard did.


    If the Hadiths were collected 200 years after Muhammads death, early transcripts of the Qur'an were studied along side the Tanakh to develop exegetical information - then it would be consistent that all homosexual/homoattraction by Muhammad and his companions would have been wiped out due to 'compatibility with the Qur'an' as based on the interpretation of the story of Lot/Lut.

    So there might have been a hell of a lot of stuff but it was destroyed by collectors claiming it wasn't authentic.

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Beardless Youths
     Reply #23 - December 05, 2009, 12:59 PM

    Yes, I am sure there is so much that was brushed under the carpet and thus permanently erased with with the advent of time.  Fortunately we have enought to go along with.  The Aisha thing is mentioned several times in Sahih Bukkake, so there is little room for manouevre until they ditch the hadtihs or the religion itself.

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  • Re: Beardless Youths
     Reply #24 - December 05, 2009, 01:02 PM

    Yes, I am sure there is so much that was brushed under the carpet and thus permanently erased with with the advent of time.  Fortunately we have enought to go along with.  The Aisha thing is mentioned several times in Sahih Bukkake, so there is little room for manouevre until they ditch the hadtihs or the religion itself.


    Or simply stop calling any of them Sahih with the warning, "a lot of it could be bullshit".

    Nothing wrong with collecting oral history as long as you don't smack Sahih on the front and claim that all are authentic which is what calling them Sahih claims.

    Anyway, I'm going to do three videos tomorrow around these sorts of issues - should I upload them all at once or segment them out?

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Beardless Youths
     Reply #25 - December 05, 2009, 01:26 PM

    I would segment them out..

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  • Re: Beardless Youths
     Reply #26 - December 05, 2009, 03:32 PM

    Waits.. whats this about Muhammad kissing boy's tongues???

    He invented the french kiss before the French.
    Amazing isn't he  Cheesy

    "In every time and culture there are pressures to conform to the prevailing prejudices. But there are also, in every place and epoch, those who value the truth; who record the evidence faithfully. Future generations are in their debt." -Carl Sagan

  • Re: Beardless Youths
     Reply #27 - December 05, 2009, 04:18 PM

    Yes, I am sure there is so much that was brushed under the carpet and thus permanently erased with with the advent of time


    Eh? Time didn't exist before then?

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Beardless Youths
     Reply #28 - December 05, 2009, 05:22 PM

    Try adding something to forum Jack, instead of being a thorn in its side  Afro  Someone, even if its just one member, might actually care about your presence here in that case.

    Until then I'm with Pakman, I just wish you'd go and leave us alone.

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  • Re: Beardless Youths
     Reply #29 - March 14, 2011, 02:14 AM

    Waits.. whats this about Muhammad kissing boy's tongues???


    Not bad.

    Pedophile. Homosexual.

    I wonder what else Muhammad has under his belt.

    Fake friends flatter you. Their compliments are made up. Nasty enemies criticize you harshly. They pick on you unnecessarily. Neither of them help you improve yourself. The best critic is honest and knows you exactly and the best person you can choose to follow is someone closest to you.
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