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Theme Changer

 Topic: Council of Ex-Muslims CANADA?

 (Read 7543 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Council of Ex-Muslims CANADA?
     OP - November 25, 2009, 06:51 PM

    I did a quick google search and nothing came up. So I'm guesing Canada doesn't have one.

    We have a group called the "Muslim Canadian Congress" that promotes secularism and democracy and free speech.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Canadian_Congress

    Though they do pussy foot around the issue and aren't overtly atheist or non-muslim but everyone knows they basically are. I think given the events in recent years in Canada related to the Macleans magazine issue, and the attempt at introducing Sharia courts we could use a CEM-Canada. Does anyone know if any persons tried to set one up here?

    Or perhaps we ex-muslim Canadians fall under the CEMB since the Queen is our head-of-state after all.  Cheesy

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Council of Ex-Muslims CANADA?
     Reply #1 - November 25, 2009, 07:58 PM

    Well here on this internet forum we are simply "The Council of Ex-Muslims"  http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/

    So we are international Smiley

    The ex-Muslim Council was actually started by Mina Ahadi in Germany, then Maryam Namazie started it here in the UK.

    They are closely linked though.

    Are there any others?
  • Re: Council of Ex-Muslims CANADA?
     Reply #2 - November 25, 2009, 08:14 PM

    The ex-Muslim Council was actually started by Mina Ahadi in Germany, then Maryam Namazie started it here in the UK.

    Well I never knew that - we have the Germans ultimately responsible for this forum & the council itselfs existence - the Germans are such great innovators of change (just like with their cars Wink

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Council of Ex-Muslims CANADA?
     Reply #3 - November 25, 2009, 08:22 PM

    I heard Germans also hate jews. This is consistent with my Islamic ideology.
    Well here on this internet forum we are simply "The Council of Ex-Muslims"  http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/

    So we are international Smiley

    The ex-Muslim Council was actually started by Mina Ahadi in Germany, then Maryam Namazie started it here in the UK.

    They are closely linked though.

    Are there any others?


    The internet forum is internation, I understand that. But I'm more referring to the actual organization and active members representing ex-muslim in Canada. I think chapters of the CEM should be internationalised throughout the west and hopefully in some muslim nations too. Where can I find like a mission statement or a charter? Is there one?

    I'm going to have to explore and e-mail some ex-Muslim Canadians to see if they've pondered on establishing a chapter like this in coordination with Maryam Nazamie's one.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Council of Ex-Muslims CANADA?
     Reply #4 - November 25, 2009, 08:33 PM

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Council_of_Ex-Muslims

    That helped explain a lot for me. I think we need a chapter like this in Canada.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Council of Ex-Muslims CANADA?
     Reply #5 - November 25, 2009, 09:11 PM

    Yes we do. That would be awesome.  Afro

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Council of Ex-Muslims CANADA?
     Reply #6 - November 25, 2009, 09:21 PM

    Are there any famous Canadian ex-Muslims? Maybe we could convince Irshad Manji to come over here and deconvert her Afro. By reading her book, it seems she's on the cusp of kafirism anyways.

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Council of Ex-Muslims CANADA?
     Reply #7 - November 25, 2009, 09:37 PM

    There's Homa Arjomand.. http://www.nosharia.com/
    She's spearheaded the muslim/feminist campaign against sharia courts when Muslims and their useful canadian idiots were trying to infiltrate Canada's legal system with that barbarism. She's similar to Maryam Namazie, Iranian feminist. She's not exactly famous, but here face was everywhere during the fight against the Sharia'ites.

    I don't get Irshad Manji at all, I mean why bother with calling yourself a Muslim still? She is a murtad anyways, I guess she just wants to bug muslims by calling herself one. It'd be nice if she dumped that crap and just said she was an ex-muslim. But I guess she's invested a lot in potraying herself as a progressive liberal muslim lesbian (lol?). Like I mentioned theirs also the Muslim Canadian Congress led by Tarek Fatah. But, very similar to their fellow canadians, they are complete pussies and still try to cling to the muslim mantle. I can't think of any other famous candian apostates but there are quite a few Muslim entertainers in Canada that I'm sure are atheists of muslim backgrounds.

    Anyways, I'll have to research the existing personalities and orgs in Canada to see whats up. But a good time to establish a chapter of CEM is the next time our 'fellow' muslims decide to make an attempt to introduce sharia courts or stifle free speech - and they inevitably will.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Council of Ex-Muslims CANADA?
     Reply #8 - November 25, 2009, 11:19 PM

    progressive liberal muslim lesbian Cheesy. She's an oxymoron and she knows it. She probably doesn't pray five times a day. There's just too many things she believes that accord way more with apostates than believers. She believes the quran is imperfect and that its message is all over the place and unclear, and is angry about verses like 4 34 and 2 223. Why she still calls herself a muslim I can't imagine.

    I think if she had never heard of ijtihad, she would be right here with us, since then she would have no way to twist the quran inot something applicable to modern life. Ijtihad=independent interpretation so that you can get away from what the Quran really says. It's license to create your own "true" Islam. Which apparently Salem has done  Roll Eyes

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Council of Ex-Muslims CANADA?
     Reply #9 - November 26, 2009, 01:22 AM

    Saleem and Irshad are classic example of one-man (one-lesbian?) sects. Practically everyone of these 'liberal' muslims are one-man sects with their own personal interpretions of quran passages.  I was one myself. Of course the Quran doesn't say strike off the kafirs finger tips! Allah *actually* means give them a manicure.  grin12

    It's sad, because the only person they are fooling is themselves. Say what you want about Salafists, but at least their beliefs are consistent and logical within the context of Islam.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Council of Ex-Muslims CANADA?
     Reply #10 - November 26, 2009, 01:45 AM

    Exactly, there's no dishonesty with the salafis. Arguing with "true, genuine, real" Muslims is frustrating. You get friggin' nowhere. That damn thread of death is alrealdy like 56 pages and should probably be locked or something banghead. At least it was fun when Gatty was around with all her jinn/burning human/iseedeadpeople talk. It's amazing how some people are so capable of blinding themselves. I think my quote really rings true here. And we never get regular Muslims. Always the weird, fringe-y ones.

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Council of Ex-Muslims CANADA?
     Reply #11 - November 26, 2009, 01:53 AM

    I assume you are referring to Salem1111? In the thread you are talking about, he has said that the existence and evidence for god if proven rationally. I have asked him to start a new thread laying down those evidences. The onus is on him to present a proof and then how he gets from that to the Quran.
  • Re: Council of Ex-Muslims CANADA?
     Reply #12 - November 26, 2009, 02:09 AM

    I think my quote really rings true here. And we never get regular Muslims. Always the weird, fringe-y ones.


    Real, mainstream Muslims who believe in orthodox sunni Islam would be demolished here, thats why they don't come. Only the ones that sufficiently twist and blur obvious meanings in the Quran and say stupid shit like "hadiths are not important" are the only ones who have any chance of putting up a proper debate with an atheist.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Council of Ex-Muslims CANADA?
     Reply #13 - November 26, 2009, 02:57 AM

    I did a quick google search and nothing came up. So I'm guesing Canada doesn't have one.

    We have a group called the "Muslim Canadian Congress" that promotes secularism and democracy and free speech.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Canadian_Congress

    Though they do pussy foot around the issue and aren't overtly atheist or non-muslim but everyone knows they basically are. I think given the events in recent years in Canada related to the Macleans magazine issue, and the attempt at introducing Sharia courts we could use a CEM-Canada. Does anyone know if any persons tried to set one up here?

    Or perhaps we ex-muslim Canadians fall under the CEMB since the Queen is our head-of-state after all.  Cheesy


    I'm part of the MCC mailing list - apparently one of the founding members is a gay Muslim who leads a prayer group for the dis-enfranchised Muslims of the community.

    I admire what they've done but it is going to be an uphill battle bringing Islam kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Council of Ex-Muslims CANADA?
     Reply #14 - November 26, 2009, 03:54 AM

    I assume you are referring to Salem1111? In the thread you are talking about, he has said that the existence and evidence for god if proven rationally. I have asked him to start a new thread laying down those evidences. The onus is on him to present a proof and then how he gets from that to the Quran.


    I think he disassociated his belief in God from Quranic divinity or something. I dunno...

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Council of Ex-Muslims CANADA?
     Reply #15 - November 26, 2009, 03:57 AM

    I admire what they've done but it is going to be an uphill battle bringing Islam kicking and screaming into the 21st century.


    I know there is this idea of 'fixing it from the inside' among many liberal Muslims. But frankly knowing the nature of discourse in the muslim community I think that's impossible. More people simply voting with their feet and leaving (like us) and pressuring the faith from the outside would probably work a lot better for muslims to realise that if they don't get their fucking act together their religion will die a slow and violent death.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Council of Ex-Muslims CANADA?
     Reply #16 - November 26, 2009, 04:13 AM

    I know there is this idea of 'fixing it from the inside' among many liberal Muslims. But frankly knowing the nature of discourse in the muslim community I think that's impossible. More people simply voting with their feet and leaving (like us) and pressuring the faith from the outside would probably work a lot better for muslims to realise that if they don't get their fucking act together their religion will die a slow and violent death.


    As I noted in a message I sent them; the best thing to do is split off and set up a network of 'Liberal Muslim' Mosques which are devoid of influences from the old country - Imams are chosen not just by qualification but by the charter set up by the 'Liberal Muslim' group. To that suggestion I received support by those on the list. That is the only way things can be addressed - just as the Protestants realised that they can't reform Catholicism from the inside, that they needed to split off and establish their own way.

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Council of Ex-Muslims CANADA?
     Reply #17 - November 26, 2009, 04:29 AM

    She probably doesn't pray five times a day.


    In her documentary, "Faith Without Fear," she has an interesting discussion with her mom about this. Mother Manji (who was a really sweet old woman, btw) tries to convince her daughter to pray the five daily prayers because God has established rules that need to be followed. Irshad responds by saying that every morning the first thing she does, even before she gets out of bed, is pray to God and thank Him for everything He's given her.

    Then she asks her mom, is your God so intolerant that He lacks the compassion to accept my worship?

    I remember watching this back in the day, shaking my fist and shouting at the TV about how you just can't go about changing Islam like that to fit your own personal whims and desires  finmad

    I am a pagan worshiper of love: the creed of Muslims I do not need

    - Amir Khusro
  • Re: Council of Ex-Muslims CANADA?
     Reply #18 - November 26, 2009, 11:22 AM

    In her documentary, "Faith Without Fear," she has an interesting discussion with her mom about this. Mother Manji (who was a really sweet old woman, btw) tries to convince her daughter to pray the five daily prayers because God has established rules that need to be followed. Irshad responds by saying that every morning the first thing she does, even before she gets out of bed, is pray to God and thank Him for everything He's given her.

    Then she asks her mom, is your God so intolerant that He lacks the compassion to accept my worship?

    I remember watching this back in the day, shaking my fist and shouting at the TV about how you just can't go about changing Islam like that to fit your own personal whims and desires  finmad


    I guess it depends on whether one views the Qur'an as a document of directives or a document to provoke change; do you follow the spirit of the book or to the letter? is Islam viewed as an evolving civilisation or one stuck in time?

    The same questions which the liberal factions of Judaism tackled over 100 years ago - they're now being addressed in Islam but with the reactionary elements getting the most publicity.

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: Council of Ex-Muslims CANADA?
     Reply #19 - November 26, 2009, 04:58 PM

    I remember watching this back in the day, shaking my fist and shouting at the TV about how you just can't go about changing Islam like that to fit your own personal whims and desires  finmad



    Haha, I rememeber doing the same. I recall I once declared her, among my fellow muslims, "a murtad lesbian whore". Naturally everybody chuckled and hi fived me. Goes to show how much a set of ideas can change a personality from spewing hate to.. not spewing hate. Tongue

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Council of Ex-Muslims CANADA?
     Reply #20 - November 26, 2009, 06:03 PM

    Where can I find like a mission statement or a charter? Is there one?


    Go here:

    http://www.ex-muslim.org.uk/

    and click: "Manifesto"

  • Re: Council of Ex-Muslims CANADA?
     Reply #21 - November 26, 2009, 07:52 PM

    I guess it depends on whether one views the Qur'an as a document of directives or a document to provoke change; do you follow the spirit of the book or to the letter? is Islam viewed as an evolving civilisation or one stuck in time?


    Just wanted to point out that the questions you raise were discussed extensively by the poet/philosopher Muhammad Iqbal in a series of lectures known collectively as The Reconstruction of Religious Thought.

    The following are excerpts from the sixth lecture, The Principle of Movement in the Structure of Islam.

    Iqbal dedicated his life to the spiritual and temporal revival of Muslim civilization. He argued that Islamic law was initially and inherently quite dynamic.

    Quote
    The only alternative open to us, then, is to tear off from Islam the hard crust which has immobilized an essentially dynamic outlook on life, and to rediscover the original verities of freedom, equality, and solidarity with a view to rebuild our moral, social, and political ideals out of their original simplicity and universality. Such are the views of the Grand Vizier of Turkey. You will see that following a line of thought more in tune with the spirit of Islam, he reaches practically the same conclusion as the Nationalist Party, that is to say, the freedom of Ijtihad with a view to rebuild the laws of Shari'ah in the light of modern thought and experience.


    And convinced himself it was also capable of evolution.

    Quote
    The question which confronts him today, and which is likely to confront other Muslim countries in the near future is whether the Law of Islam is capable of evolution - a question which will require great intellectual effort, and is sure to be answered in the affirmative, provided the world of Islam approaches it in the spirit of 'Umar - the first critical and independent mind in Islam who, at the last moments of the Prophet, had the moral courage to utter these remarkable words: The Book of God is sufficient for us.


    He took a heretical stand when it came to re-interpreting the Quran for the modern era.

    Quote
    The primary source of the Law of Islam is the Qur'an. The Qur'an, however, is not a legal code. Its main purpose, as I have said before, is to awaken in man the higher consciousness of his relation with God and the universe. No doubt, the Qur'an does lay down a few general principles and rules of a legal nature, especially relating to the family - the ultimate basis of social life... The important point to note in this connexion, however, is the dynamic outlook of the Qur'an.


    And even suggested it would be best if Muslim scholars simply ignored some of the more unsavory hadith as no longer relevant.

    Quote
    [About Hadith] we must distinguish traditions of a purely legal import from those which are of a non-legal character. With regard to the former, there arises a very important question as to how far they embody the pre-Islamic usages of Arabia which were in some cases left intact, and in others modified by the Prophet.


    He comes pretty close to making the same suggestion about Quranic injunctions, but stops himself.

    Quote
    Can the Ijma' repeal the Qur'an? ... There is not the slightest justification for such a statement in the legal literature of Islam. Not even a tradition of the Prophet can have any such effect.


    However he offers an unequivocal endorsement of progressive Muslims and their efforts to reform Islam.

    Quote
    The claim of the present generation of Muslim liberals to reinterpret the foundational legal principles, in the light of their own experience and the altered conditions of modern life is, in my opinion, perfectly justified. The teaching of the Qur'an that life is a process of progressive creation necessitates that each generation, guided but unhampered by the work of its predecessors, should be permitted to solve its own problems.


    And even predicts the resistance they would likely encounter.

    Quote
    Unfortunately, the conservative Muslim public of this country is not yet quite ready for a critical discussion of Fiqh, which, if undertaken, is likely to displease most people, and raise sectarian controversies.


    Granted, Iqbal was not even close to being a classically trained scholar and affirmed that by his own admission, but if someone of his stature could get away with such heterodoxy, then there's reason to have hope.

    Frankly I'm somewhat surprised that Pakistani ulema haven't condemned him for holding opinions that many would consider to be kufr. But then again, Iqbal with his hagiographic approach to medieval Islamic history and skepticism towards secular democracy, has been quite useful to the country's religious right-wing in establishing a reactionary Islamic state.

    I am a pagan worshiper of love: the creed of Muslims I do not need

    - Amir Khusro
  • Re: Council of Ex-Muslims CANADA?
     Reply #22 - November 26, 2009, 10:18 PM

    Goes to show how much a set of ideas can change a personality from spewing hate to.. not spewing hate.


    Ditto. I remember one instance at my Islamic school when we were discussing these progressive types and dabbling in paranoid nonsense about how their attempts to reform Islam were part of the neocon/Zionist agenda to divide Muslims and destroy Islam.  wacko

    I detest how quickly Muslims dismiss Irshad Manji and her arguments once they find out about her sexual orientation. It's a real shame since she does make a lot of valid points.

    I am a pagan worshiper of love: the creed of Muslims I do not need

    - Amir Khusro
  • Re: Council of Ex-Muslims CANADA?
     Reply #23 - November 26, 2009, 10:24 PM

    Muslims dismiss each other for minor differences in dogma. Its hardly surprising they simply resort to ad-hominem insults and curses when a person like Irshad Manji opens her mouth.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

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