The Doctor Who Appreciation Society

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Reply #270 - December 29, 2014, 01:17 AM

Quote from: allat on December 29, 2014, 01:06 AM
sexism and ageism

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #271 - December 29, 2014, 01:25 AM

Seconded. Moffat's writing frequently leaves a lot to be desired, and I have felt a bit sorry for the poor buggers who have to try and make the best of what they're given, but I haven't noticed any rampants ism's.

(then again, some of Moffat's episodes have been so dull that I've largely not paid attention to them)

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Reply #272 - December 29, 2014, 03:38 AM

TBH I've held on for a long time but it's just not something I'm enjoying at all anymore. Mostly IMO the writing has gone down the toilet. I mean, there were always tacky aspects to the show, but since season 6, it's just been completely chaotic and there's been only 1 or 2 episodes that have been consistent in any way. I know that is my subjective opinion so I don't expect anyone else to feel the same.

What I don't think is subjective is the way that Moffat's show (i.e. since RTD's departure) has had lots of sometimes sneaky sexism, homophobia and also ageism against older women. Some examples:

(SPOILERS AHEAD)

E.g. "The Girl Who Waited", which I thought was not bad in terms of plotting and very well acted too, had some serious issues. Amy Pond survives on her own for 36 years. Nobody really cares how she did it - there was no real acknowledgement of her extremely impressive survival skills. The saddest thing for the Doctor is that she got old so he lies to her and essentially kills her so that younger Amy will live instead of her.

In this Last Christmas episode, in the ending, Clara is old and that's presented as the most awful thing ever. And as soon as Santa Claus magically makes her young again, the music is uplifting, the doctor (what, twice her age in human form? Almost a 1000 years older than her as a Time Lord?) is so happy that she's a little filly again and the first thing she does is grab a mirror and asks "AM I YOUNG??" WHEW!

Moffat's message seems to be that women should not get old. Men can. Capaldi's doctor is older than Matt Smith's. That's fine. Amy, Clara... they must remain young and if they don't, well, they must die or be magically made young again.

Plus, there are all these little things that add up: the scientist woman turns out to have just been imagining being a scientist - she's actually 'just' a shop girl. Amy Pond, after all the adventures in time and space, goes and becomes a a perfume model or something.... I mean wtf?

There were also the 2 gay guys in Season 6. At one point, someone asks them their name and the line the writers gave them was something like "We're 2 fat, thin tall gay guys, why do we need to have names?"
WTF??

Besides, Moffat whines about how no woman will come and write on the show for him while there were a few women writers who worked with Russell T Davies. It may just be that Moffat's Dr. Who is often drenched in casual sexism, and it's just getting too boring to keep trying to make excuses for it. IMHO.

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Reply #273 - December 29, 2014, 04:05 AM

Oh I agree that a lot of his stuff has been manic and chaotic, which is why I just tune out when it starts getting like that.

Not sure about the old Clara thing. I saw it as being a bummer for them because at that age she was too frail to go off gallivanting, which is what they both wanted. That's not ageism as such, and the Clara character is basically a very good (and capable) character. She's had a lot of really good scenes. I've even seen people complaining that she gets too many and upstages the Doctor, which I don't agree with.

The bloke scientist in the Christmas episode also turned out not to be one, because they were all dreaming anyway, and unlike the others he got killed.

Anyway Moffat does write (or has written) some good ones, but I think he needs a bit of help. He's not consistent enough. Might be burned out.

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Reply #274 - December 29, 2014, 04:24 AM

I could tune out the bad writing but I can't tune out the sneaky jibes at women (esp older women), gay people... just can't.

I just googled around a bit and there are quite a few other people who are saying similar things about Moffat.

Quote
Why does the man behind 'Doctor Who' and 'Sherlock' still have a job?

Imagine a man who’s spent years describing women as “needy husband-hunters.” A man whose consumer base has grown increasingly upset with his refusal to listen to criticism, lack of diversity, and that time he made fun of a high-profile woman in his industry for criticizing the way he runs his department. Surely he wouldn’t be allowed to keep his job, or at the very least, the higher-ups would tell him to watch his public image?

But that man is Steven Moffat, the current showrunner of Doctor Who and co-creator of Sherlock. In Moffat’s universe, he gets rewarded, not punished, for his history of dismissive, problematic speech and writing.

He now presides over not one, but two of the most popular shows in the world. And far from being chastened by recent demands for his replacement, he remains as glib as ever, confidently declaring that women watch Sherlock only because they’re attracted to the main character, even as he’s describing his plans for the fourth and fifth series of the show whose popularity grew on the back of its massive female fanbase.

Clearly, Steven Moffat has a lot to be happy—or infuriatingly smug—about:

Moffat is happy his wife is no longer the size of “a boat," because her pregnancy was a scary time in his life that left him “pretty frightened” and “disgusted.”

Moffat is happy he was able to hire Karen Gillan to play Amy Pond. He thought Gillan was “wee and dumpy,” but it turns out she’s “5'11" and slim and gorgeous.”

Moffat is happy he was able to “[shag] his way ’round television studios like a mechanical digger” and still wind up with a successful television career, married to one of the most powerful producers in the industry.

Moffat is happy Sherlock Holmes isn’t asexual, because there’s “no fun in that.” Of course Sherlock’s not gay, either, because “he wouldn't be living with a man if he thought men were interesting.” And although John and Sherlock are “definitely a love story,” Moffat doesn’t see why it should be “weirdly sexualized.” Moffat is happy he can write only the most interesting, innovative, entertaining relationships into his shows—straight ones.

source

Quote
University Study on Sexism In BBC’s Doctor Who

(Very interesting study with numbers.)

Back in 2010 Steven Moffat took over as head writer of the cult classic British Sci-Fi Doctor Who from Russell T. Davies. Davies had headed the reboot of the show back in 2005. When the switch happened many fans began voicing problems they were having with the new direction of the show. One of those problems was sexism, or at least that is what people were claiming. However some fans of Moffat said people were being overly sensitive and just couldn’t let go of the RTD era. So which side was right? We sat down and watched all of the episodes since the reboot to the departure of the Pond’s (excluding a couple specials) to figure out if there was a quantifiable answer to the claims that female character writing had taken a nose dive.

See source for full analyses

Quote
Does Steven Moffat have a problem with women?

Cards on the table: I, too, adore the work of Steven Moffat. I found myself turning joyful metaphorical cartwheels when it was announced that the man who wrote some of my favourite Doctor Who episodes would be running the whole show. Moffat's writing sizzles and his plots twist with intricacy and never fail to surprise and delight.

I find it difficult, then, to reconcile my love for Moffat's shows with a stripe of sexism I feel runs through it all. Particularly egregious was the first episode in the new series of Sherlock, which is based on an Arthur Conan Doyle story in which Holmes finds himself completely and utterly outsmarted by a woman.

In Moffat's take, not only are Irene Adler's smarts demoted to being due to advice from Holmes's male nemesis Moriarty, but Adler ends up as a damsel in need of rescue.

source

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Reply #275 - December 29, 2014, 04:33 AM

I have to disagree with you about the prejudice. When RTD was behind the scenes Moffat had the luxury of being able to take a breath and when he wrote standalone episodes while RTD had the stress, his episodes were fucking brilliant. However, being the head of the show is apparently stressful since as he took the reigns his episodes have been lacking in quality aside from a few standalones. But ageist and sexist? I'm sorry, I just don't share your view.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #276 - December 29, 2014, 04:35 AM

Like I said, though, it's not just my view. And those examples I gave up top do kind of make my points. If it was just one thing or two things... it could be ignored. But it's a pattern that some people have been pointing out and from what I can see (on Twitter and in my friends' circles) more and more are beginning to see the pattern for themselves.

I still love Dr Who but not Moffat, and I will not watch the show any more while Moffat is running it.

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Reply #277 - December 29, 2014, 04:38 AM

Okay, then I don't share the view you hold in common with some fans/critics.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #278 - December 29, 2014, 04:41 AM

That's cool. I don't expect everyone to agree.

I only want Moffat to wake the fuck up and change, or leave and let someone better handle the show.

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Reply #279 - December 29, 2014, 04:42 AM

That I do agree with.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #280 - December 29, 2014, 04:43 AM

Must admit I don't watch Sherlock at all, so have no opinion on that one, but the general impression given seems to be that Moffat has had too many people kissing his arse for too long and it's gone to his head a bit.

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Reply #281 - December 29, 2014, 04:46 AM

Quote from: allat on December 29, 2014, 04:24 AM
I could tune out the bad writing but I can't tune out the sneaky jibes at women (esp older women), gay people... just can't.

Ok, but you have no worries with the jibes at anyone else? The show has traditionally taken the piss out of just about everything. Including the lead male character (frequently).

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Reply #282 - December 29, 2014, 04:52 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on December 29, 2014, 04:43 AM
Must admit I don't watch Sherlock

Watch it.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #283 - December 29, 2014, 04:54 AM

BTW, about the suggestions on one of those links re having a female Doctor. Personally I'd have no worries with that. I can even see it being a good thing given that the whole male lead/female companion format is basically a hangover from the show's early days.

However, I did think that someone grumbling about the possible selection of Helen Mirren or Tilda Swinton for a female doctor was just ludicrous. Both of them are insanely competent actors. They're two of the best ever. Grumbling about the possibility of them getting the job because you don't think their looks are appropriate (meaning they are apparently too good looking) just seems stupid to me. They are more than qualified on the grounds of talent and experience. Bringing their looks into it is retarded.

ETA: Oh and I do have to point out that women don't seem to complain when the Doctor is good looking. However, I have heard some complain when, by their standards, he isn't. I seem to remember some comments about Matt Smith, for instance.

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Reply #284 - December 29, 2014, 05:03 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on December 29, 2014, 04:46 AM
Ok, but you have no worries with the jibes at anyone else? The show has traditionally taken the piss out of just about everything. Including the lead male character (frequently).

Well no. It's not the same thing as making sure that any older woman is treated like crap and has to die off or become young again, while the Doctor himself is a 900+ year old who trounces around with young girls who go back to being perfume models when he's done with them. It's not the same thing because ultimately he still has the power and they are just decoration. As the study in 1 of the links I posted up top shows, things have gotten objectively worse under Moffat's Dr Who than they were under RTD's.

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Reply #285 - December 29, 2014, 05:05 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on December 29, 2014, 04:43 AM
Moffat has had too many people kissing his arse for too long and it's gone to his head a bit.

Yep. It's really obvious when he can not handle any criticism and refuses to change his ways.

It's a shame because, as he himself admits, there may be more fans of Dr Who who are women than who are men. To treat female characters as afterthoughts, or as showgirls or substitutes for Moffat's own mid-life crisis, is really not fair.

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Reply #286 - December 29, 2014, 05:07 AM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on December 29, 2014, 04:42 AM
That I do agree with.

Whether it's burnout or a propensity for casual sexism that is becoming more apparent with time, I don't know. He really does need to retire or move on and let some fresh (and diverse) new hands take over and work on Dr Who.

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Reply #287 - December 29, 2014, 05:12 AM

But it's not the case that any older woman is treated like crap. It is the case that a woman at the end of her life (or a man for that matter) won't be able to go off all round the universe. The Doctor has been at death's door due to age more than once, and nobody grumbles about him regenerating.

And I'm not saying that things haven't gone downhill under Moffat's reign. However I do get the impression that some people have become so pleased with hating Moffat that they'll gladly take any excuse for offence they can find. Some criticisms of him seem reasonable. Others seem a bit over the top.

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Reply #288 - December 29, 2014, 05:13 AM

I think the youth thing is more human than it is sexist. The Doctor is timeless. He doesn't need to be young because he's eternal. The Doctor can be presented as young or old because it doesn't matter, though I will point out the same theme was taken in Matt Smith's final episode as he was on his last regeneration. The companions traditionally represented the humanity in a show whose lead character was beyond human. I'm aware of these elements when I watch it. I just don't get the impression that if the companions were male this would change.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #289 - December 29, 2014, 05:15 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on December 29, 2014, 05:12 AM
But it's not the case that any older woman is treated like crap. It is the case that a woman at the end of her life (or a man for that matter) won't be able to go off all round the universe. The Doctor has been at death's door due to age more than once, and nobody grumbles about him regenerating.

And I'm not saying that things haven't gone downhill under Moffat's reign. However I do get the impression that some people have become so pleased with hating Moffat that they'll gladly take any excuse for offence they can find. Some criticisms of him seem reasonable. Others seem a bit over the top.

Well I think criticism in general is hard to stomach when you're invested in something, an identity, a product, a person...

I don't think the criticism against him has been too harsh because he's still raking in the big moolah running 2 shows that are awfully written but have a charm and a history that makes people keep coming back regardless of the gaping flaws in them.

I think he's a big boy. He can handle the criticism. And he needs to learn from it. But, based on how much he hasn't known how to handle it in the past, he won't.

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Reply #290 - December 29, 2014, 05:20 AM

I wasn't referring to whether or not Moffat could handle it, and how much money he was making. I was referring to my assessment of the comments themselves, regardless of how Moffat reacts to them (or doesn't).

And the gaping flaws over the last year or so have been the reason why I've not been that bothered with the show, except intermittently.

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Reply #291 - December 29, 2014, 05:22 AM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on December 29, 2014, 05:13 AM
I just don't get the impression that if the companions were male this would change.

I don't know... But I guess we won't be finding out next season either.... I really was hoping to see the end of Clara. I know some people like her character but I never did.

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Reply #292 - December 29, 2014, 05:23 AM

Why not?

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Reply #293 - December 29, 2014, 05:26 AM

There is so much more Capaldi could be doing instead of running after dinosaurs and trying to justify the existence of Santa Claus!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ml9MWzF2bpQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqCFSg5xSw4

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Reply #294 - December 29, 2014, 05:29 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on December 29, 2014, 05:23 AM
Why not?

I wanted to like her. I think she's cute. But she has no facial expressions other than this in just about every scene

With a couple of these thrown in

Basically, her acting never spoke to me. Also, her character has been written as having nothing special about her other than she's the doctor's biggest fan. Other companions had families, lives, interests... Clara is the most generic companion since the 9th doctor IMO.

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Reply #295 - December 29, 2014, 05:33 AM

Weird. Can't see it myself. I think both the character and the acting are pretty damned good. She does have a greater range of expressions that what you've indicated.

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Reply #296 - December 29, 2014, 05:36 AM

As a heterosexual male I realise that I may not be picking up on things a non-heterosexual/woman may be picking up on, but I do maintain that the companions represent a humanity that the Doctor simply isn't capable of. When I watched Matt Smith's last episode, when I saw him grow old and in the end young, when I saw Clara old and then young, even the episode where Amy grew old and had a life of hardship wiped away, I identified with it. As I said, the companions represent the humanity that the Doctor never can. I honestly never saw it as sexist/ageist, I saw it as so very human.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #297 - December 29, 2014, 05:42 AM

Quote from: allat on December 29, 2014, 05:29 AM
I wanted to like her. I think she's cute. But she has no facial expressions other than this in just about every scene

(Clicky for piccy!)

With a couple of these thrown in

(Clicky for piccy!)

Basically, her acting never spoke to me. Also, her character has been written as having nothing special about her other than she's the doctor's biggest fan. Other companions had families, lives, interests... Clara is the most generic companion since the 9th doctor IMO.

I thought she was brilliant in Asylum of the Daleks.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #298 - December 29, 2014, 05:43 AM

Quote from: allat on December 29, 2014, 05:26 AM
There is so much more Capaldi could be doing instead of running after dinosaurs and trying to justify the existence of Santa Claus!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ml9MWzF2bpQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqCFSg5xSw4

Bring back Torchwood!!!

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #299 - December 29, 2014, 05:44 AM

It'd be interesting to see what'd happen if Moffat took a year off and a cohort of the female writers who have worked on the show in the past took over. Given the overall patchiness of Moffat's recent writing it would have to be an improvement, so there's no way the Beeb could lose on the deal.

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