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 Topic: Your stance on Evolution before apostacy?

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  • Your stance on Evolution before apostacy?
     OP - November 21, 2009, 02:10 PM
    So for all the infidels here, what did you think of evolution before you apostatized? The fossils and the evidence, were you aware of them?

    As for me, I was quite ignorant tbh, I just thought it was false because it contradicted the Qur'an. But when I realised it was pretty much agreed upon among scientists, I had mixed thoughts, but never really got to try and understand it until recently. As for fossils for dinosaurs and stuff, I believed they existed before the creation of man, and as with most Muslims I was somehow an old-earth creationist.
    "In every time and culture there are pressures to conform to the prevailing prejudices. But there are also, in every place and epoch, those who value the truth; who record the evidence faithfully. Future generations are in their debt." -Carl Sagan

  • Re: Your stance on Evolution before apostacy?
     Reply #1 - November 21, 2009, 02:26 PM
    I accepted evolution but with a slight modification in that I believed that God somehow brought humans into existence from the off as a totally distinct and separate species (i.e. as opposed to evolving slowly through intermediate stages). I was unclear how this was done and amongst the ideas I had was that God put human souls into early Homo Sapiens.
  • Re: Your stance on Evolution before apostacy?
     Reply #2 - November 21, 2009, 02:47 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 21, 2009, 02:26 PM
    I accepted evolution but with a slight modification in that I believed that God somehow brought humans into existence from the off as a totally distinct and separate species (i.e. as opposed to evolving slowly through intermediate stages). I was unclear how this was done and amongst the ideas I had was that God put human souls into early Homo Sapiens.


    That's what I used to believe as a Muslim as well. But there was a time where I fervently believed in Harun Yahya's works. That was almost 9 years ago. Smiley whistling2 I began to change my mind when I read about the opinions of educated Muslims about the theory.
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  • Re: Your stance on Evolution before apostacy?
     Reply #3 - November 21, 2009, 02:55 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on November 21, 2009, 02:26 PM
    I accepted evolution but with a slight modification in that I believed that God somehow brought humans into existence from the off as a totally distinct and separate species (i.e. as opposed to evolving slowly through intermediate stages). I was unclear how this was done and amongst the ideas I had was that God put human souls into early Homo Sapiens.

    I would say the same thing. But my views differed widely with time. There was a time that I had strong Creationist views (though not the insanity of Evangelical Americans) who was completely ignorant of evolution, to accepting parts of it given the slow progress and change we have recorded in history. To me it was all Allah running the show, and that was it.

    But realising what the theory is, and what it explains, I would say it jolted me a lot given how old the Earth really is and how old Humanity in its current form has existed.

    The thing which really ripped my brains out was when I realised that if the Earth's 4.5 billion year age was condensed to a single 24 hour time period, Humanity's existence of around 150,000 years would be tantamount to just the last TWO SECONDS of that time period.

    That made me lose faith in organised religion when that analogy finally hit my head like a train.
    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Your stance on Evolution before apostacy?
     Reply #4 - November 21, 2009, 03:16 PM
    Quote from: Infidel on November 21, 2009, 02:10 PM
    So for all the infidels here, what did you think of evolution before you apostatized? The fossils and the evidence, were you aware of them?


    Evolution :-)

    But then again I trained as a Scientist ;-)

    And yes I have come across Muslims who accepted evolution but not human evolution.


    They always used to say "I can't accept that we evolved from Monkeys!"


    Which is mistaken off course because we have not evolved from Monkeys. We shared an ancestor with them.



    Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
  • Re: Your stance on Evolution before apostacy?
     Reply #5 - November 21, 2009, 03:46 PM
    I hated evolution with a vengeance. I really thought that accepting it, particularly the "mankind" aspect would deliver the most horrific blow to my faith. I was a big ID fan.
  • Re: Your stance on Evolution before apostacy?
     Reply #6 - November 21, 2009, 03:54 PM
    Quote
    I hated evolution with a vengeance. I really thought that accepting it, particularly the "mankind" aspect would deliver the most horrific blow to my faith. I was a big ID fan.


    I saw the opposite.

    I saw a God who allows his creation to evolve an understanding of him rather than Him imposing an understanding of him....
    Challenge All Ideologies but don't Hate People.
  • Re: Your stance on Evolution before apostacy?
     Reply #7 - November 21, 2009, 04:05 PM
    Most Muslims I know either reject it as a whole. Or they accept Micro evolution but not macro evolution  Huh?
    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
  • Re: Your stance on Evolution before apostacy?
     Reply #8 - November 21, 2009, 05:45 PM
    I thought it was a good explaination for how all life forms came about.
    It is not the way you live your life that is important, it is how well you enjoy it that matters.
  • Re: Your stance on Evolution before apostacy?
     Reply #9 - November 21, 2009, 06:41 PM
    I think evolution is fact and theory and everywhere! Not just physical, but memes and ideas that impact: society, the economy, fashion, religions, education, psychology, interactions, products, disease, demographics, decision making, social classes, race differences, the design of a BMW car, the Internet, programming viruses, programming code, high frequency algorithmic stock market trading ...

    I'm looking forward to this lecture too, sign up if you're in London:
    http://humanevolution.eventbrite.com/?ref=ebtn

    Yes it says it's sold out but from what I hear there aren't any big body guards to chuck you out. It's a lecture, not a booming night club! Good luck
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  • Re: Your stance on Evolution before apostacy?
     Reply #10 - November 21, 2009, 06:44 PM
    Oh but I'd like to point out that although matter and energy came from somewhere, it is very much the possibility we don't have the information right now to understand it completely (except for big bang/string theory), much like we didn't have the understanding of many other things 2 thousand years ago.
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  • Re: Your stance on Evolution before apostacy?
     Reply #11 - November 21, 2009, 06:46 PM
    I accepted the evolution - I just assumed someone muslims had not understood the quran correctly. 
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  • Re: Your stance on Evolution before apostacy?
     Reply #12 - November 21, 2009, 07:06 PM
    I believed in evolution but not necessarily human evolution. I don't think Muslims are as hostile to evolution as you would think. My deeply religious cousin once told me that there is nothing contradictory to Islamic discourse in evolution.
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Your stance on Evolution before apostacy?
     Reply #13 - November 21, 2009, 07:08 PM
    would agree with that. 
  • Re: Your stance on Evolution before apostacy?
     Reply #14 - November 22, 2009, 07:16 AM
    I was told it was a conspiracy and it was Darwinism, a religion founded by Charles Darwin and shared by Adolf Hitler (because Darwin was a racist and somehow evolution is a religion). I was pretty much disagreeing with my parents and their church I went to. Baptist preachers tend to be on the crazy side where I am from.
    It is not the way you live your life that is important, it is how well you enjoy it that matters.
  • Re: Your stance on Evolution before apostacy?
     Reply #15 - November 22, 2009, 07:20 AM
    We never had problems here, as regards evolution.  Even priests would take the piss out of you if you told them that you believed that you thought that the genesis was a true story. 
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Your stance on Evolution before apostacy?
     Reply #16 - November 22, 2009, 07:27 AM
    Quote from: ras111 on November 22, 2009, 07:20 AM
    We never had problems here, as regards evolution.  Even priests would take the piss out of you if you told them that you believed that you thought that the genesis was a true story. 

    You'd be given dirty looks if you said you believed that genesis was wrong and evolution was right in the church I went to, they'd even be suspicious of you.
    It is not the way you live your life that is important, it is how well you enjoy it that matters.
  • Re: Your stance on Evolution before apostacy?
     Reply #17 - November 22, 2009, 08:00 AM
    Quote from: ninurta on November 22, 2009, 07:16 AM
    I was told it was a conspiracy and it was Darwinism, a religion founded by Charles Darwin and shared by Adolf Hitler (because Darwin was a racist and somehow evolution is a religion). I was pretty much disagreeing with my parents and their church I went to. Baptist preachers tend to be on the crazy side where I am from.


    Blimey!

    I have a Christian friend who hates Dawkins because of his hooked nose and posh accent ...

    ... that Dawkins ... grrr  finmad

     Cheesy
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  • Re: Your stance on Evolution before apostacy?
     Reply #18 - November 22, 2009, 11:04 AM
    Quote from: ras111 on November 22, 2009, 07:20 AM
    We never had problems here, as regards evolution.  Even priests would take the piss out of you if you told them that you believed that you thought that the genesis was a true story. 

    And by 'here' you mean where?
    It kinda sound unbelievable.
    "In every time and culture there are pressures to conform to the prevailing prejudices. But there are also, in every place and epoch, those who value the truth; who record the evidence faithfully. Future generations are in their debt." -Carl Sagan

  • Re: Your stance on Evolution before apostacy?
     Reply #19 - November 22, 2009, 11:33 AM
    Quote from: Infidel on November 22, 2009, 11:04 AM
    And by 'here' you mean where?
    It kinda sound unbelievable.


    Malta,  Our country is Roman Catholic. 
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Your stance on Evolution before apostacy?
     Reply #20 - November 22, 2009, 11:51 AM
    Quote from: Infidel on November 22, 2009, 11:04 AM
    And by 'here' you mean where?
    It kinda sound unbelievable.


    It doesn't sound unbelievable to me, its exactly the same here, (Ireland).
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Your stance on Evolution before apostacy?
     Reply #21 - November 22, 2009, 02:21 PM
    I knew evolution was a fact even as a Muslim. I never did buy the whole Adam and Eve story - I took it metaphorically.
    You need to read this book.
  • Re: Your stance on Evolution before apostacy?
     Reply #22 - November 22, 2009, 02:43 PM
    Even when I was religious I never questioned the theory of evolution-- like Godot I took the whole creation story metaphorically and figured God had people write it that way because back then people wouldn't be able to understand a nuanced scientific concept like natural selection.

    Yeah, I'd be curious to know how many people out there went from being full-blown literalist/creationist theists to being atheists/secular agnostics-- I'd suspect it's the minority. Anyone with posting privileges both here and at FFI want to make a poll at both places-- I have a hunch there will be more literalists prior to apostasy over there than here.
    fuck you
  • Re: Your stance on Evolution before apostacy?
     Reply #23 - November 24, 2009, 04:11 PM
    Quote from: Infidel on November 21, 2009, 02:10 PM
    So for all the infidels here, what did you think of evolution before you apostatized? The fossils and the evidence, were you aware of them?

    As for me, I was quite ignorant tbh, I just thought it was false because it contradicted the Qur'an. But when I realised it was pretty much agreed upon among scientists, I had mixed thoughts, but never really got to try and understand it until recently. As for fossils for dinosaurs and stuff, I believed they existed before the creation of man, and as with most Muslims I was somehow an old-earth creationist.



    Evolution was a constant conflict for me. I *had* to believe it, but I really didn't want to because it contradicted god's involvement in the formation of life and mankind. But, unlike other religionists, I was not particularly good at "double think" - the method in which educated muslims separate obvious emprical and scientific facts from their faith. I had to have all my beliefs be consistent. So basically, I always agreed with evolution before and after my faith.

    I can see why so many Muslims and Christians alike hate Evolution. It is one of those obvious scientifically proven theories that have a truly quite.. but corrosive effect on ones faith. After all.. isn't Islam and Christianity's core purpose to tell us where we as mankind came from and our purpose in life? Evolution undermines and replaces religion's place in that ancient narrative.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 03:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Your stance on Evolution before apostacy?
     Reply #24 - November 24, 2009, 04:21 PM
    Quote from: Kafirist on November 24, 2009, 04:11 PM
    Evolution was a constant conflict for me. I *had* to believe it, but I really didn't want to because it contradicted god's involvement in the formation of life and mankind.


    I don't think that the idea of Evolution contradicts God's involvement in the formation of anything. I also know Muslims who think the same.
    tea and cake or death!!!

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  • Re: Your stance on Evolution before apostacy?
     Reply #25 - November 24, 2009, 04:27 PM
    Quote from: Kafirist on November 24, 2009, 04:11 PM
    Evolution was a constant conflict for me. I *had* to believe it, but I really didn't want to because it contradicted god's involvement in the formation of life and mankind. But, unlike other religionists, I was not particularly good at "double think" - the method in which educated muslims separate obvious emprical and scientific facts from their faith. I had to have all my beliefs be consistent. So basically, I always agreed with evolution before and after my faith.

    I can see why so many Muslims and Christians alike hate Evolution. It is one of those obvious scientifically proven theories that have a truly quite.. but corrosive effect on ones faith. After all.. isn't Islam and Christianity's core purpose to tell us where we as mankind came from and our purpose in life? Evolution undermines and replaces religion's place in that ancient narrative.


    They are also afraid of the way it undermines the concept of the afterlife...  At least 2 of the Abrahamic faiths state that only humans sin and have souls.  We know that we evolved from beings that according to religion have no soul and cannot sin because they are not aware of this, so at one point in time we were just the same as the animals.  

    Therefore why and at what point in time does God create heaven and hell and the concept of morality?  At what point in time did we get an immortal soul?

    These questions will trouble many religious people..
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
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