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Theme Changer

 Topic: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad

 (Read 161025 times)
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  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #90 - November 20, 2009, 04:40 PM

    To give the devil his due, I was impressed with how efficiently safiya managed to burn books, especially given that I don't need to tell you that her cult followers have been trained, organized, and motivated to replace discourse and open dialogue with disorganized flimflams and blatant ugliness. That should be self-evident. What is less evident is that I haven't the foggiest idea why she wants to resolve a moral failure with an immoral solution.

    Get this: safiya insists that anyone who dares to convert retreat into advance can expect to suffer hair loss and tooth decay as a result. [One minute break for laughter.] Whew! That's the funniest thing I've heard in weeks.


    You could have replied in a meaningful, more respectable post.
    Regards,
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #91 - November 20, 2009, 04:41 PM

    Correct me if I'm wrong Saleem, but doesn't your "holy" book say too many times that hell is eternal. I mean. in 3:85, is says ALL those don't except Islam will be tortured in hell forever. How do you explain that?

    "Whoever seeks a faith other than Islam, it will never be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers."--3:85

    The verse says seek. Those who have never heard of Islam, or got a distorted version of it are not included obviously.
    Eternal hell is for those who reject the truth. That is their just punishment.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #92 - November 20, 2009, 04:42 PM

    I apologize for calling Islam a cult! I think that was slightly out of order on my part!
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #93 - November 20, 2009, 04:42 PM

    SO why do you have the hadith then?

    Frankly I believe many Hadiths are questionable, inauthentic.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #94 - November 20, 2009, 04:43 PM

    So, do you accept god to be infinite?
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #95 - November 20, 2009, 04:43 PM

    There are Sunnis, who are divided into further subgroups and then there are Shiaa who are also divided.  Tell me which one is genuine

    I believe none of them follow the Quran 100%. If they did there would be no Sunnis and Shias in the first place.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #96 - November 20, 2009, 04:43 PM

    Those parents do not deserve obedience of course. But God is unlike them. He is Gracious and Merciful. Just too.


    Why wasn't god merciful to my cousin?  Why did she have to die at 9 years of cancer?  Why did she have to be in pain and know that she was going to die months in advance?  Is that mercy?


    Working is considered a form of worship too. God demands worship because He deserves it. He is the Creator, and therefore He deserves worship. Both go hand in hand. Nothing to do with desperation.


    Then why not work all day instead of pray 5 times a day?

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #97 - November 20, 2009, 04:44 PM

    Frankly I believe many Hadiths are questionable, inauthentic.

    What about the Sahih hadith?

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  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #98 - November 20, 2009, 04:45 PM

    I believe none of them follow the Quran 100%. If they did there would be no Sunnis and Shias in the first place.


    But both the shiaa and the sunni authorities claim that they know the truth and anyone else is deviating from the word of Allah...  How do you know that they do not follow the quran? Are you a Mullah?  

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #99 - November 20, 2009, 04:46 PM

    I apologize for calling Islam a cult! I think that was slightly out of order on my part!

    Thanks for your respectable manners. Afro
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #100 - November 20, 2009, 04:48 PM

    So, do you accept god to be infinite?

    I believe God exhibits maximum excellence.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #101 - November 20, 2009, 04:52 PM

    Quote
    Why wasn't god merciful to my cousin?  Why did she have to die at 9 years of cancer?  Why did she have to be in pain and know that she was going to die months in advance?  Is that mercy?

    That is the argument from evil. To put it shortly, without evil we cannot know goodness. Evil and goodness are twins. They go hand in hand.
    Quote
    Then why not work all day instead of pray 5 times a day?

    Because none can work all day.
    You can work and pray. If you cannot pray five times a day that is fine. You can pray once or twice, or even once every two or three days. "God does not burden any human being with more than he is well able to bear" [2:286]

    Personally I have been praying 5 times a day since 2005, and everything is perfectly fine.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #102 - November 20, 2009, 04:53 PM

    Well actually infinities do not exist - mathematically speaking the change of a supreme being existing in our universe such as what theist define as god has zero probability in mathematical terms zero probability means impossible, in other words one can never prove or disprove the existence of a god, but logically speaking it would be an implausibility to accept a god defined by religious scriptures exists it is irrational.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #103 - November 20, 2009, 04:54 PM

    What about the Sahih hadith?

    I believe them too are questionable/inauthentic. Many Muslim and non-Muslims scholars believe so too.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #104 - November 20, 2009, 04:55 PM

    But both the shiaa and the sunni authorities claim that they know the truth and anyone else is deviating from the word of Allah...  How do you know that they do not follow the quran? Are you a Mullah?  

    No, I am not a "Mullah".
    Anyone can claim whatever he wants. You guys claim Islam is not the truth. We claim that it is the truth.
    I only read the Quran and go by as I understand it. In Islam there is no priesthood or religious authority.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #105 - November 20, 2009, 04:55 PM

    Hello Tommy
    You are wrong here. It was purely emotional. Read my post in response to her again.


    Okay, I read your post again.......I didn't catch anything new. How is reading your post again going to change my accusation about your previous post? You accused her of leaving Islam purely on the basis of emotional reasons while you failed to recognize the fact that it was her analytical approach that made it happen.

    I, and many others, investigated Islam analytically and are fully convinced in it.


    Okay, so lets talk. What exact contents of the Quran are the things you're so logically convinced of? Most of us here took a different route after proper investigation, but obviously you disagree. So I'd like to know--what are the things you're fully convinced of?

    No, "hijab" and "niqab" are not mandatory. Some shorts are decent, some are not.


    Oh? Which shorts are decent Saleem?


    .No it is not. She said that she now can drink alcohol. I am advising her against that for the sake of her health.


    Fair enough.


    Wrong. Islam is not strict. I live by the Quran and I do not cherry pick anything. I go by the whole and for me it is the most liberal religion there is.


    With all due respect Saleem, that really is a load of crap. I don't mean any disrespect to you, but that really shows me that you have been led to believe that Islam is the "most liberating religion there is."

    Most of our female Murtads here would disagree with you on that point.


    Those parents do not deserve obedience of course. But God is unlike them. He is Gracious and Merciful. Just too.


    Is he still merciful when he threatens all non-Muslims to burn in hell forever if they don't believe?


    Good parent, nonetheless, expect obedience from their children.Working is considered a form of worship too. God demands worship because He deserves it. He is the Creator, and therefore He deserves worship. Both go hand in hand. Nothing to do with desperation.


    But what I'm saying is that good parents deserve respect--bad parents do not. Any parent that constantly threatens a child of torture to keep them in line is surely a malicious parent. But you'll find that it's the same tactic Allah uses to keep Muslims in line--by injecting fear. For what though? All so that he can be worshiped. Thats desperation.

    Call me TAP TAP! for I am THE ASS PATTER!
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #106 - November 20, 2009, 04:58 PM

    Well actually infinities do not exist - mathematically speaking the change of a supreme being existing in our universe such as what theist define as god has zero probability in mathematical terms zero probability means impossible, in other words one can never prove or disprove the existence of a god, but logically speaking it would be an implausibility to accept a god defined by religious scriptures exists it is irrational.

    I said that he exhibits maximum excellence, not infinity.
    Go to see an atheist admit that infinities do not exist. So you believe that the series of cosmic events in the past is finite, right?
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #107 - November 20, 2009, 05:00 PM

    People here would certainly get upset if someone reverted/converted to Islam. Maybe they would not be hysterical, but they would certainly get upset.

    I don't think that we'd get upset, at most we'd feel slightly disappointed and ask lots of questions to the person to learn why they decided that Islam is the truth. We tend to value humans more than the beliefs they want to follow.

    Not all Muslims were hysterical about our sister actually. Many supported her, even though some say that she was rude to them.

    Okay, you're right. I noticed positive messages as well. But how was she rude to others? Just leaving Islam or even criticizing it doesn't count as rudeness.

    Not all unbelievers will be tortured forever. Only those that learned genuine Islam and rejected it would get punished.

    Why should a good Aztec be judged differently than a good Turkish atheist? Only because the Turkish atheist remained unconvinced of Islam, he will be subjected to eternal torture? Doesn't make the least bit of sense.

    Punishing the wrongful does not contradict mercy.

    Excessive and unreasonable punishment contradicts mercy and justice. Tell me what is worse. Hell or KZ Auschwitz?

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
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    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #108 - November 20, 2009, 05:00 PM

    I believe in a parallel universe's or a multiverse. potential infinities can exist
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #109 - November 20, 2009, 05:00 PM

    Thats not true - most muslim scholars, including the likes of Zakir naik, treat the sahih hadith as genuine (thats why they are called Sahih).  In fact many muslims would cast you aside for saying that, and say you're not a muslim.  why do you not accept the Sahih hadith, is it because they are inconvenient?

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  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #110 - November 20, 2009, 05:01 PM

    That is the argument from evil. To put it shortly, without evil we cannot know goodness. Evil and goodness are twins. They go hand in hand. Because none can work all day.



    What good exactly is to be learnt from the slow death of a little girl with her future ahead of her?  Tell me... Watching her smile and knowing that in a few months time she was going to be gone...  Did it have to be that way?  

    What if someone were to teach you how to be humble by chopping your arm or your leg off?  Is it justified?


    Personally I have been praying 5 times a day since 2005, and everything is perfectly fine.


    Then if it is not obligatory why is it recommanded that you pray 5 times a day?  It is one of the 5 pillars of Islam:  Salat... Are you saying that one of the 5 pillars is not obligatory?

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #111 - November 20, 2009, 05:02 PM

    No, I am not a "Mullah".
    Anyone can claim whatever he wants. You guys claim Islam is not the truth. We claim that it is the truth.
    I only read the Quran and go by as I understand it. In Islam there is no priesthood or religious authority.


    Really?  So what are the roles of the Mufti of Mecca and the Ayatollahs of Iraq and Iran.  They spent their lives studying Islam.  Surely they must know more then me and you...

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #112 - November 20, 2009, 05:03 PM

    That is the argument from evil. To put it shortly, without evil we cannot know goodness. Evil and goodness are twins. They go hand in hand. Because none can work all day.

    How do you know what's good without knowing what's evil in paradise then? Evil won't exist in paradise, no?

    Welcome to the forum btw.

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
    Wikis: en de fr ar tr
    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #113 - November 20, 2009, 05:20 PM

    It is true that the Quran constantly talks about punishment for the disbelievers, which is understandable


    "Understandable" ?  Cheesy

    Please tell me what is "understandable" about torturing someone for ever for not believing in a God that refuses to prove he even exists - let alone which of the many competing claims about him is true?
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #114 - November 20, 2009, 05:21 PM

    Quote
    Okay, I read your post again.......I didn't catch anything new. How is reading your post again going to change my accusation about your previous post? You accused her of leaving Islam purely on the basis of emotional reasons while you failed to recognize the fact that it was her analytical approach that made it happen.

    She left mainly because she mistakenly thought that her family was going to Hell for instance. That is emotional.
    Quote
    Okay, so lets talk. What exact contents of the Quran are the things you're so logically convinced of? Most of us here took a different route after proper investigation, but obviously you disagree. So I'd like to know--what are the things you're fully convinced of?

    That is off topic.
    Quote
    Oh? Which shorts are decent Saleem?

    I would say shorts that do not stick, if you know what I mean, and are long enough to reach the knees for instance.
    Quote
    With all due respect Saleem, that really is a load of crap. I don't mean any disrespect to you, but that really shows me that you have been led to believe that Islam is the "most liberating religion there is."

    I respect your disagreement and I disagree with. I was not led by anyone to believe any particular thing. That is based solely on my own study.
    Quote
    Most of our female Murtads here would disagree with you on that point.

    That is a logical fallacy called argument from authority. For instance most of our female converts would disagree with you on that point.
    Quote
    Is he still merciful when he threatens all non-Muslims to burn in hell forever if they don't believe?

    Not all non-Muslims will go to Hell forever. Only those that rejected the truth.
    Quote
    But what I'm saying is that good parents deserve respect--bad parents do not. Any parent that constantly threatens a child of torture to keep them in line is surely a malicious parent. But you'll find that it's the same tactic Allah uses to keep Muslims in line--by injecting fear. For what though? All so that he can be worshiped. Thats desperation.

    When parents punish their children for wrongdoing then that is not malicious. That's for their goodness. Fair and square.
    We Muslims are not kept in line because of fear. Many atheists think we worship God because of the joys of Paradise, or because we want to avoid eternal Hell. That is not true. Even if there were no Paradise or Hell, I would still be 100% Muslim, because God is my Creator and therefore is worthy of full obedience and worship. Paradise and Hell come after that. Paradise for the good, and Hell for the wicked.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #115 - November 20, 2009, 05:30 PM

    Quote
    I don't think that we'd get upset, at most we'd feel slightly disappointed and ask lots of questions to the person to learn why they decided that Islam is the truth. We tend to value humans more than the beliefs they want to follow.

    That is what I meant exactly.
    Quote
    Okay, you're right. I noticed positive messages as well. But how was she rude to others? Just leaving Islam or even criticizing it doesn't count as rudeness.

    They say that she was rude to them when they approached her about her decision via private messages.
    Quote
    Why should a good Aztec be judged differently than a good Turkish atheist? Only because the Turkish atheist remained unconvinced of Islam, he will be subjected to eternal torture? Doesn't make the least bit of sense.

    Because we are born believers in God. That is what science says.
    If the Turk gave up Islam because he was raised in a radical or backward houshold, but still believed in God (Deist), he would not go to Hell. But going to outright atheism is not justified at all since we are born believers in God. God planted His existence into our minds. Therefore an atheist is going against his very own nature, and in that case he has only himself to blame.
    Quote
    Excessive and unreasonable punishment contradicts mercy and justice. Tell me what is worse. Hell or KZ Auschwitz?

    Maximum sins deserve maximum punishments. Rejecting God is a maximum sin, and therefore it deserves a maximum punishment which is Hell.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #116 - November 20, 2009, 05:31 PM

    I believe in a parallel universe's or a multiverse. potential infinities can exist

    Actual infinities do not exist. There must be a Creator therefore.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #117 - November 20, 2009, 05:34 PM

    Thats not true - most muslim scholars, including the likes of Zakir naik, treat the sahih hadith as genuine (thats why they are called Sahih).  In fact many muslims would cast you aside for saying that, and say you're not a muslim.  why do you not accept the Sahih hadith, is it because they are inconvenient?

    Yea I understand that the vast majority still accept the Hadiths, but that is not an argument to begin with. It is a logical fallacy called "argumentum ad populum" and "argument to authority". I can give you several Muslim and non-Muslim scholars who reject the authenticity of the Hadiths.
    I reject Hadiths because they are were invented in a very late period. It is not about convenience. I could have rejejcted what seem to be bad Hadiths and still accept the good ones which are plenty. But the issue is deeper than that. It is about intellectual integrity. As I said several non-Muslim scholars reject the authenticity of the Hadiths.
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #118 - November 20, 2009, 05:37 PM

    "Understandable" ?  Cheesy

    Please tell me what is "understandable" about torturing someone for ever for not believing in a God that refuses to prove he even exists - let alone which of the many competing claims about him is true?

    You could have responded in a more respectable way?
    There are several evidences for God's existence. Those who reject Him deserve maximum punishment (Eternal Hell) becaused they committed a maximum sin.
    Regards,
  • Re: Famous Muslim to infamous Murtad
     Reply #119 - November 20, 2009, 05:38 PM

    This forum belongs to the British council of Maryam Namazie right?
    Gotta go now. Have a nice day all. Afro
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