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 Topic: Sex B4 Marriage in Islam is Not Haram!

 (Read 20475 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Sex B4 Marriage in Islam is Not Haram!
     OP - September 23, 2009, 07:42 AM
    Listen to Dr Shahrour (the Syrian philospher and liberal writer) on the phone explaining that Mohammed did it, so why shouldn't we.

    He says that Sex in Islam is OK if both the man and the woman have concented. It is Zina if they are married he says. So sex in Islam is OK as long as there is no cheating (Sifah) on their spouses.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elo8Erm6u0o

    I think the Guy makes sense to me. Mohamed had Maria as his girlfriend and had a baby boy Ibrahim from his relationship with her, if we agree that at Mohammed's time artificial insemination was not practiced then!
    ...
  • Re: Sex B4 Marriage in Islam is Not Haram!
     Reply #1 - September 23, 2009, 07:46 AM
    No, only for men it isn't.  Believing women, FREE women, are not allowed to have sex before marriage in Islam.  However slave girls/captives can't be blamed for it therefore you as a man, can screw them before marriage.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Sex B4 Marriage in Islam is Not Haram!
     Reply #2 - September 23, 2009, 10:06 AM
    Quote from: BerberElla on September 23, 2009, 07:46 AM
    No, only for men it isn't.  Believing women, FREE women, are not allowed to have sex before marriage in Islam.  However slave girls/captives can't be blamed for it therefore you as a man, can screw them before marriage.


    The reason I posted this video is that this extreme yet liberal Author and thinker says otherwise. He says, it is OK for both men and women to have sex before marriage if both agree and no rape or infidelity is there. He lives in France and I guess he sees that the boyfriend girlfriend relationships of the west is not against a verse from the quran that he mentions in the video. He claims that since the quran is in Arabic you should be able to interpret it as you understand it. He is an Authority in the Arabic language, obviously he has degrees in Arabic Language.

    He has Mohammad's sexuall encounter with "Maria Al-Qobtia" as an example. He said that the Quran does not say, only Men can have Malicat Yameenokom (what your right arm poseses). He said if both agree that they (Boys and Girls) become each other Malikat Yameenokom (i.e. Boyfriend-Girlfriend) provided that the parents know about it and the comuninty too then that is fine.

    I like his liberal approach of Islam.


    Quote from: Sura Al-Nissa
    Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise. (24) If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess: And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another: Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable: They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours: when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. (25)

    ...
  • Re: Sex B4 Marriage in Islam is Not Haram!
     Reply #3 - September 23, 2009, 10:10 AM
    Actually that verse is very clear in talking about not having enough money to marry WOMEN, had it said  "If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women or men," then I could go with his point.

    Although I understand the push for reformation and support it, it would be silly of me to put any faith in these new interpretations since the whole thing is hogwash anyway and to me you can't just change a book, you have to discard it in total.
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Sex B4 Marriage in Islam is Not Haram!
     Reply #4 - September 23, 2009, 10:34 AM
    lol great video!
    brb i go have sex now!  thnkyu
    أشهد أن لا إله إلا الله وأن محمدآ عبده ورسوله
  • Re: Sex B4 Marriage in Islam is Not Haram!
     Reply #5 - September 23, 2009, 11:01 AM
    Quote from: BerberElla on September 23, 2009, 10:10 AM
    Although I understand the push for reformation and support it, it would be silly of me to put any faith in these new interpretations since the whole thing is hogwash anyway and to me you can't just change a book, you have to discard it in total.


    Berbs, I agree with you wholeheartedly on this point. I have mentioned before in previous threads that Islam is a hollistic religion and I believe that the maintream muslim community is practising the faith in the same way as the early community and their understanding of the quran and sunnah is probably in close rendition to what Muhammad would have propogated. Even mainstream muslims would agree that attempts to try to re-interpret are futile because unlike the NT which is claimed to be the "inspired" word of God, the Quran is thought to be the literal word of God. This makes it fairly rigid and hence the interpretation of it from the mainstream has to come from Hadith and how Muhammad would have interpreted it. Failing those two the mainstream would turn to Ijmaa and Qiyaas (still using the Quran and Hadith as foundation). Laws and prohibitions that already exist tend to be just that fixed and unchangeable by the mainstream muslims.

    As for sex outside marriage, the reason why it needs to be within the confines of marriage is because it is "legal" in the sight of Allah. As for having sex with slaves, trying to justify it as boyfriend and girlfriend relationships is simply adding spin. The term which indicates posessing with the right hand dictates ownership of that person. In a consenting relationship between a boyfriend and girlfriend non of the partners own each other. Either partner has the right to decline or consent and is happy to move on if the relationship breaks down. Comparing slavery to it is simply apologetic because even having sex with slaves carries the understanding on the part of the muslim that it is divinely sanctioned which makes the act legal as far as the muslim is concerned.

  • Re: Sex B4 Marriage in Islam is Not Haram!
     Reply #6 - September 23, 2009, 11:22 AM
    Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on September 23, 2009, 11:01 AM
    Berbs, I agree with you wholeheartedly on this point. I have mentioned before in previous threads that Islam is a hollistic religion and I believe that the maintream muslim community is practising the faith in the same way as the early community and their understanding of the quran and sunnah is probably in close rendition to what Muhammad would have propogated. Even mainstream muslims would agree that attempts to try to re-interpret are futile because unlike the NT which is claimed to be the "inspired" word of God, the Quran is thought to be the literal word of God. This makes it fairly rigid and hence the interpretation of it from the mainstream has to come from Hadith and how Muhammad would have interpreted it. Failing those two the mainstream would turn to Ijmaa and Qiyaas (still using the Quran and Hadith as foundation). Laws and prohibitions that already exist tend to be just that fixed and unchangeable by the mainstream muslims.

    As for sex outside marriage, the reason why it needs to be within the confines of marriage is because it is "legal" in the sight of Allah. As for having sex with slaves, trying to justify it as boyfriend and girlfriend relationships is simply adding spin. The term which indicates posessing with the right hand dictates ownership of that person. In a consenting relationship between a boyfriend and girlfriend non of the partners own each other. Either partner has the right to decline or consent and is happy to move on if the relationship breaks down. Comparing slavery to it is simply apologetic because even having sex with slaves carries the understanding on the part of the muslim that it is divinely sanctioned which makes the act legal as far as the muslim is concerned.




    Agreed, plus the Quran and the hadiths lay a heavy emphasis on the dofference between that of a FREE woman and that of a slave/right hand possession.  The slave is not to be blamed because she is not in control of herself, she has no ownership of her own body and therefore it is fine to sleep with her before marriage, or alongside it.



    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Sex B4 Marriage in Islam is Not Haram!
     Reply #7 - September 23, 2009, 04:03 PM
    When mo had sex with maria he was already married, and it was Asma's day, and he banged maria on Asma's bed. Is that what the nice liberal philosopher is referring to as 'Sifah' ? Shouldn't mo had ordered himself stoned like he stoned so many others? If he was merciful then shouldn't he at least had ordered himself flogged in public?

     Instead what did Mohammed do? he modified the koran, first verses in 66 and 33:50 and more.



    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Sex B4 Marriage in Islam is Not Haram!
     Reply #8 - September 23, 2009, 08:49 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on September 23, 2009, 11:24 AM
    It existed for sunni muslims too, "misyar" however the hadiths which sunni muslims follow do contain hadiths in which the practise was disallowed as no longer necessary.


    Oh misyar is enjoying a revival and it is still being practiced.  Not only by the stereotypical rich Gulf guys, but in America and England and other places too. 
    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Sex B4 Marriage in Islam is Not Haram!
     Reply #9 - September 24, 2009, 01:51 AM
    I like this approach as well. Seems more reasonable then just a guy having a slave girl and being able to have sex with her. There is more equality between the sexes implied through this idea so the girl and boy can have a relationship without fear of punishment.
    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Sex B4 Marriage in Islam is Not Haram!
     Reply #10 - September 24, 2009, 04:29 AM
    Yup. His approach of Islam is way different. I listened to many of his lectures on YouTube from talks in Cairo and Oman and was very surprised how freely he spoke about the negative 1400 old Islam. He urges Muslims to reinterpret the Quran with a mentality fit for the 21 century. Shame these videos are in Arabic only and not subtitled.
    ...
  • Re: Sex B4 Marriage in Islam is Not Haram!
     Reply #11 - September 24, 2009, 11:23 AM
    Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on September 23, 2009, 11:01 AM
    Berbs, I agree with you wholeheartedly on this point. I have mentioned before in previous threads that Islam is a hollistic religion and I believe that the maintream muslim community is practising the faith in the same way as the early community and their understanding of the quran and sunnah is probably in close rendition to what Muhammad would have propogated. Even mainstream muslims would agree that attempts to try to re-interpret are futile because unlike the NT which is claimed to be the "inspired" word of God, the Quran is thought to be the literal word of God.


    Isnt the idea that the NT is inspired in itself a modern re-interpretation?

    Ive met and seen fundamentalist christians and jews who believe that the bible is the literal word of god (precisely why they would be called fundamentalists)
    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
  • Re: Sex B4 Marriage in Islam is Not Haram!
     Reply #12 - September 24, 2009, 01:03 PM
    Quote
    Isnt the idea that the NT is inspired in itself a modern re-interpretation?


    No, it isn't.  It was always known that the Gospels were eye witness accounts of Jesus' life written by people, and  not scripts dictated by God.

    Quote
    Ive met and seen fundamentalist christians and jews who believe that the bible is the literal word of god (precisely why they would be called fundamentalists)


    I dunno anything about fundamentalist Jews but fundie Christians are dumbasses on theological grounds as well as all other grounds.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Sex B4 Marriage in Islam is Not Haram!
     Reply #13 - September 24, 2009, 05:23 PM
    sorry I meant OT
    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
  • Re: Sex B4 Marriage in Islam is Not Haram!
     Reply #14 - September 24, 2009, 08:51 PM
    OT is also considered written by man. Even more so then the NT. But you already know that. Why the trolling?

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Sex B4 Marriage in Islam is Not Haram!
     Reply #15 - September 24, 2009, 10:16 PM
    what is OT and NT?
    ...
  • Re: Sex B4 Marriage in Islam is Not Haram!
     Reply #16 - September 24, 2009, 10:30 PM
    old testament / new testament
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Sex B4 Marriage in Islam is Not Haram!
     Reply #17 - September 25, 2009, 07:23 AM
    Quote from: Baal on September 24, 2009, 08:51 PM
    OT is also considered written by man. Even more so then the NT. But you already know that. Why the trolling?




    By who? you?

    The Torah was revealed to the jews after exodus, orthodox jews consider it the litteral word of god. Orthodox jews dont think moses wrote the ten commandments, they think GOD wrote them.

    As a matter of fact, some people think it gives them a religious claim to a land in the middle east, they think God gave the land to them because he said so in his book.



    "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them." [Saheeh Muslim]

    "Wherever you are, death will find you, Even in the looming tower."
    - Quran 4:78
  • Re: Sex B4 Marriage in Islam is Not Haram!
     Reply #18 - September 27, 2009, 03:49 AM
    And they are being put in their place again and again and being ridiculed and exposed. You keep latching on to the lowest common denominator and claim it justifies someone else's bad majority, so again, why the trolling.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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