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 Topic: Putting Faith in its Place

 (Read 36534 times)
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  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #30 - October 04, 2009, 08:30 PM

     Wink

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  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #31 - October 04, 2009, 08:43 PM

     Cheesy Good line. I might steal that one.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #32 - October 05, 2009, 10:22 PM

    Peace all,

    Thanks for the video Hassan.

    The author seems to be arguing against (a standard religious view and of course a legitimate target) of a transcendental God that stands outside of human reality and pronounces external judgement on us. Thus providing an external "semantics" or meaning to reality. His arguments are fine valid enough -- although his use of language belies an assumption that there is a semantics out there -- a final meaning to reality -- given by, presumably, science. And ultimately, such a presumption dies the same death as the transcendental God. Everything is relative, everything is permitted. There is no absolute truth within the world views we construct for ourselves -- there are only relative comparisons we can make between them. God is dead, but so is the idea of an ultimate science that transcends human language. Life is just a series of games we construct by ourselves, in total freedom.

    This is Neitzche's point. He used it to do a far superior job of killing off such a God more than 100 years ago.  Ditto his successors, philosophers like Heidegger or Deleuze. Particularly Deleuze because he answers the question -- if ALL such Gods are dead (the religious God, but also the God of scientism or the God of a politics) what am I to do with my freedom? He came up with a very good atheist response, and I would thoroughly recommend his book "A thousand plateaus" to anyone interested.

    On the other hand, my Islam takes judgement as as intrinsic to the human condition, agrees with Neitzche's point and (because Neitzche is a superset) much of this video. And yet I have a relationship with a non-trascendental (and also non-immanent) God:
      http://thegoodgarment.wordpress.com/2009/04/04/judgement-and-life/

    The secret is to bang the rocks together guys.

    Love and Light,

    The Tailor

    The Divisions of Love, second album by my Cabbalacore band, the Friends of Design, out now:

    https://vimeo.com/110528857
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #33 - October 07, 2009, 01:05 AM

    Hi Hassan,

    I'm having a hard time figuring out how to locate posts that are replies to mine.


    Do you mean those who reject Christ don't suffer an eternity in torment?



    According to my understanding of the Bible: No body at all who dies is tormented or tortured even for one minute let allow eternity. (Ecc 9:5)

    One of the things the video you posted got right was that the Hebrew word She'ol that some translate Hell, is more correctly translated Grave.

    In the Genesis account when Jehovah was talking to Adam about what happened for his disobeying Jehovah's law was that Adam returned to the dust from which he came. (Genesis 3:19) Before Adam was created he did not know or feel anything, when Adam died he once again was in the same state he was before he was created, feeling and knowing nothing. Think about it: If any thing else happened to Adam then what Jehovah said, that would make Jehovah a liar.
     
    Now you might like to think that Jehovah God is a liar. You may even think you could prove it. You however could not prove it with the information in the Bible.

    Another Bible accounts that disprove a burning hell: The righteous man Job asked to be concealed in she'ol. (Job 14:13-14)

    Are you waiting for a secret aganda of torture and torment to be exposed?

    Well, there isn't one.

    If a person has proved unworthy to be in "the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous" then they are simply gone.

    Even, if some one would like to show Revelation 20:15 to prove there is burning place of torment and torture. Looking at what is said proves other wise.

    Relevations 20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Ha?des gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. 14 And death and Ha?des were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. 15 Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire.

    Questions that needs answering: 1) What is the lake of fire mentioned in verse 15?
    - Verse 14 helps answer that. "...This means the second death, the lake of fire."
    So the lake of fire is the second death. 
    2) What else does the lake of fire have an effect on?
    - Also in verse 14 we see that "death and Ha'des" were hurled into the lake of fire. (Ha'des is the Greek word for grave) So death and the grave are put in the lake of fire. Take a minute to think is death and the grave the sort of thing that would be effected by a lake of physical fire? I think not. If you think other wise let me know. (It would be kind of a challenge if you thought it did because I have as yet not met some one who did)
    3) What is the purpose of putting something in the lake of fire?
    -When you put something in an actual physical fire what happens to it?  How about; It turns back into dust? Is it not destroyed? The thing no longer exists. The purpose of the lake of fire is to put out of existence death, the grave, and the people who in the face of physical evidence denie God.

    So anyhow the out come is the same as Jehovah told Adam, from dust you were made into dust you will return. No everlasting torment.

    If you would like an explanation better then mine check this site out:

    http://www.watchtower.org/cgi-bin/lib/ProcessForm.pl

    Until next time.

    Lynna

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #34 - October 07, 2009, 01:15 AM

    Hi Hassan,
    Sorry, I didn't answer the exac question you asked.

    So it makes no difference whether one accepts Christ or not?


    It does matter in general whether a person accepts Jesus (storing up treasure in heaven, resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous) but accepting or not accepting Jesus has nothing to do with whether a person is tormented in fire after death because after death and while a person is dead there is no activity, thinking and feeling.

    Until next time.

    Lynna

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #35 - October 07, 2009, 01:19 AM

    "So it makes no difference whether one accepts Christ or not.'

    Good news! Thanks Jehova's Witnesses O0


    As regards a burning hell or not.

    Remember not to take thing out of context, if you will please.

    Until next time. Lynna

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #36 - October 07, 2009, 08:29 AM

    Ah....so there's a catch, 'as regards burning hell' - do you mean there are other penalties for not believing in JC?

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #37 - October 08, 2009, 04:08 PM

    A catch?

    Penalties?

    Ah....so there's a catch, 'as regards burning hell' - do you mean there are other penalties for not believing in JC?


    Believing or not Believing.

    In the Bible even the demons believed who Jesus is. Actually they know who Jesus is. They saw him in Heaven. But that doesn't help them one bit if they keeping acting like manslayers.

    There are benefits to knowing who Jesus is and what role he plays in Jehovah's purpose and acting on what you know.

    So, is it a penalty to not get benefits that you could have if you wanted them. Humm... I'll have to think about that one. What do you think? Really I'd like to know what you think. I'm not very much into the torment, torture, punish, penalize mode if thinking. Actually that way of thinking really throws me off frequently.

    Lynna


    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #38 - October 08, 2009, 04:20 PM

    Yeah, I can see that the penalties could be in not getting the benefits. I guess if you're right, then, I won't be getting any Jesus benefits because I'm not sure I believe he even existed. Maybe he'll do something miraculous for me later and I change my mind Smiley

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #39 - October 08, 2009, 04:45 PM

    Cant believe I only just saw that video >_<

    It was brilliantly made I have to say. Subscribed to QualiaSoup  Afro

    Pakistan Zindabad? ya Pakistan sey Zinda bhaag?

    Long Live Pakistan? Or run with your lives from Pakistan?
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #40 - October 08, 2009, 04:47 PM

    Qualia soup rules - he's on of my favourite youtubers

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  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #41 - October 08, 2009, 05:13 PM

    It does matter in general whether a person accepts Jesus (storing up treasure in heaven, resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous)


    Please explain - I don't understand?

    Hell is an absurd & wicked fiction. You're not a bad person for rejecting something that's cruel, irrational, unjust & lacks evidence. You have nothing to fear. Nothing to feel ashamed about. Enjoy your life. Do the best you can. Make yourself & others happy.
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #42 - October 09, 2009, 07:39 AM

    You store up treasure in heaven if you accept Jesus, dumbo...I mean, come on Wink!!

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #43 - October 17, 2009, 03:11 AM

    Hi Hassan,

    Sorry for the delay in replying to you. I've had a long work week.

    I suppose you are thinking there must be more to the idea then Jack Torrance seems to think.

    You store up treasure in heaven if you accept Jesus, dumbo...I mean, come on ;)!!


    A main theme in the Bible is the Kingdom of God that will restore the earth to the paradise God intended for mankind. Accepting Jesus by understanding his role in God's purpose helps us become ready to live in that Kingdom and on into the future.

    Storing up treasure in heaven isn't like scoring points in a football game. There is no "yahoo, look what I've done". If a person is doing good things to be seen by mankind there is where they will get thier reward.

    Storing up treasures in heaven is more like changing your personality and activities:
    for the sake of justice,
    to be a peace seeker,
    to act with empathy,
    to desire to do God's will,
    to not only love righteousness but to also hate wickedness,
    (just to list a few things)

    So, a person who right now starts learning about God's Kingdom and understands Jesus' role as King has benefitted by already making changes and developing a desire to praise God and a longing to see God's will done.

    The resurrection of the righteous will enclude people such as these who had already started making changes, storing up treasure, before they died.

    The resurrection of the unrighteous will be for those who had no knowledge of God's Kingdom before they died.  Perhaps they lived during a time or at a place where there was no one to teach them about God's Kingdom. Perhaps during thier life they were so oppressed they lacked the ability to act.

    The people who have actions that show they desire to live under God's rules that are living when God's war against ungodly mankind starts will be able to live and never die.

    Ungodly mankind are those who by thier action demostrate they have no desire to live by God's standard. (by the way these just return to the dust, no everlasting fire for anyone)

    Have I been any help?

    until next time.
    Lynna

    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #44 - October 17, 2009, 08:27 AM

    Lynna, do you accept that you might be wrong in what you believe? It's just that you state it all as 'fact' - and I think any honest person will tell you, we just don't know.

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #45 - October 19, 2009, 05:17 AM

    What?!? I might be wrong??? What then...

    Jack Torrence, something has got to be right.

    Do you accept that you might be wrong in what you believe?

    I've spent alot of time reading and studying the Bible. Often I do my resreach with a reference Bible and a concordence to see if I can understand the point on just what I find in the Bible. It takes longer that way but it is worth it in the end.

    Some would like to imply that an inteligent and honest person would understand that we just can't know for sure.

    Lynna, do you accept that you might be wrong in what you believe? It's just that you state it all as 'fact' - and I think any honest person will tell you, we just don't know.


    I don't think that is so. I'm an honest person and have a higher then average IQ (even if I am a horrible speller). I don't need to follow the crowd of the so called inteligent and informed.

    One of the things that makes me confident that the Bible is trust worthy is the fact even all of Christendom's effort to change the the information there in by their traditions, they have not been able to change the actual words of the Bible to agree with their traditions. This whole issue of a burning hell is proof of that.






    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #46 - October 19, 2009, 09:02 AM

    "Lynna, do you accept that you might be wrong in what you believe? It's just that you state it all as 'fact' - and I think any honest person will tell you, we just don't know."


    "I don't think that is so. I'm an honest person and have a higher then average IQ (even if I am a horrible speller). I don't need to follow the crowd of the so called inteligent and informed."


    So you are saying that you do 'know', beyond any doubt, and that you are 'right' because you are an honest person with a high IQ. I'm afraid one or more of these statements contradicts the other. It's got nothing to do with following a crowd, but everything to do with being honest with yourself, which I don't thin you are being.

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #47 - October 19, 2009, 04:12 PM

    One of the things that makes me confident that the Bible is trust worthy is the fact even all of Christendom's effort to change the the information there in by their traditions, they have not been able to change the actual words of the Bible to agree with their traditions. This whole issue of a burning hell is proof of that.

    Not really, youre not being objective and inferring whatever you want to make it sound nice and fit into your own utopian version of it - unforunately for you and without knowing it, punishment of Hell and reward of Heaven is what your religion hinges on. 

    Without this you would not be motivated to do what you are doing, and much like the dodo which had little purpose and ability to propogate, so too, your belief system would become extinct.  That's why religions that base themselves on this concept of reward and punishment, are among the most successful religions today.  The more extreme these rewards and punishments, e.g. Judaism vs. Islam , the more successful and more virulent the growth of the belief system.

    I sometimes wish we could introduce a similar concept in humanism, but its impossible without this concept of a supreme tyrannical being at its centre.  But imagine where humanism would be now if the worlds governments rewarded all the best humanists, and punished the worst-performing humanists with torture?

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  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #48 - October 19, 2009, 04:28 PM

    I sometimes wish we could introduce a similar concept in humanism, but its impossible without this concept of a supreme tyrannical being at its centre.  But imagine where humanism would be now if the worlds governments rewarded all the best humanists, and punished the worst-performing humanists with torture?


    I'm glad there isn't any type of carrot or stick to dangle in front of the adherents. It's what makes it humane.
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #49 - October 19, 2009, 04:32 PM

    I'm glad there isn't any type of carrot or stick to dangle in front of the adherents. It's what makes it humane.

    .. yet inconsequential on the world stage.  Which method should we adopt?  i.e. Humane and inconsequential vs. inhumane and ubiquitous?

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  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #50 - October 20, 2009, 03:57 AM

    Hi Islame,

    I am more then a little bit surprised at this:

    Not really, youre not being objective and inferring whatever you want to make it sound nice and fit into your own utopian version of it - unforunately for you and without knowing it, punishment of Hell and reward of Heaven is what your religion hinges on.


    My religion hinges on punishment of Hell and reward of Heaven? Say what? What religion do you think I am?

    Are you being objective?

    The video that Hassan posted provided some information that there is no torment in a burning Hell. It stated the Hebrew word she'ol that is translated Hell should more correctly be translated grave. This of course was fine and wonderful by the comments of many here. However when I say the same thing I am trying to fit things into my own utopian view.

    Really now who is not being objective?

    Most of my time so far on this forum has been spent explaining that there is no such place as a burning hell of torment. I in fact have used Bible text to prove my point. Additionally I provided a link to a site with a great deal of information on this subject. Respond if you will please to those scripture. Not just using some fantastical statements that it seems you have pulled out of thin air.

    It is not for fear of punishment in Hell that I have by choice followed the religion that I do. The Bible does not teach that there is burning hell. Go ahead, try to show me where the Bible does teach such a thing. Even the most disgusting and horrible of people who have committed the worst of crimes will not burn in Hell, they will return to the dust.

    I don't even want to go to Heaven. Most people wont end up going to Heaven. The earth was made for mankind that was clearly stated by Jesus. Try reading Matthew chapter 5.

    Looking forward to a conversation that is actually based on some sort actual information.

    Until next time. Lynna.




    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #51 - October 20, 2009, 04:13 AM

    The Bible does not teach that there is burning hell. Go ahead, try to show me where the Bible does teach such a thing.


    Since you asked:

    (Most of the Old Testament is the abrahamic god showing his more sociopathic side, we get into the real meat and bones of hell, the lake of fire etc. mostly once Jesus arrives on the scene.)



    Malachi 4
    4:1  For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
    4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
    4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.



    Matthew 7
    7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.



    Matthew 18
    18:8  Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
    18:9  And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.



    Matthew 25
    25:41  Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:



    Mark 9
    9:43  And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
    9:44  Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
    9:45  And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
    9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.   
    9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:   
    9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.



    Luke 12
    12:4  And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.   
    12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.



    Revelation 1
    1:18  I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.



    Revelation 6
    6:8  And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
    6:9  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
    6:10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
    6:11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.



    Revelation 20
    20:10  And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
    20:11  And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
    20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
    20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


    And there are several more.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."

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  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #52 - October 20, 2009, 09:23 AM

    Yes but apart from those. You're cheating.  Cheesy

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #53 - October 20, 2009, 10:51 PM

    Hi Allat,

    A very interesting list of Scriptures you have listed. Have you actually read them in context? Or was this list just an exercise in cut and paste for you?

    -Okay, Let's look at Malachi 4:1-3 first:

    Malachi 4:1 ?For, look! the day is coming that is burning like the furnace, and all the presumptuous ones and all those doing wickedness must become as stubble. And the day that is coming will certainly devour them,? Jehovah of armies has said, ?so that it will not leave to them either root or bough. 2 And to YOU who are in fear of my name the sun of righteousness will certainly shine forth, with healing in its wings; and YOU will actually go forth and paw the ground like fattened calves.?

    3 ?And YOU people will certainly tread down [the] wicked ones, for they will become as powder under the soles of YOUR feet in the day on which I am acting,? Jehovah of armies has said.

    >Are you concerned about the presumptuuous one that is doing wickedness being like stubble in a furnace?
    Exactly how long do you think it takes for stubble to burn up (and become dust or ashes or nothing) in a hot furnace? Maybe a few seconds?
    Thus the illustration of stubble in a furance can be apply applied to the distruction of those making no effort to, or not desiring to, live in God's Kingdom. Just like, not necessarily by the exact method, the stubble becomes quickly nothing in a furnace so those not desiring to live in God's Kingdom will quickly become nothing.

    >>Now, if you are able in your own words explain what at Malachi 4:1-3 talks about everlasting torment in a burning Hell.

    -Okay on to the next Scripture on your list:

    Matthew 7:19 Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire.

    >It is well known that Jesus used illustrations common to the people to explain things. In an agricultural society it would be common knowledge that burning unproductive trees is a way to clean off the land to propare it for more desirable productive trees. Perhaps you have never seen this done, none the least such is practised to this day by agricultural people. The useless trees are burned up and become ash (also could be referred to as returning to the ground).  People accustom to burning trees would be well aware that trees burn up, thereby being totally destroyed. There is nothing in this illustration that states or implies an everlasting burning of the same tree. I think it is reasonable to understand that it applies well to the fact that those people not desiring to live in God's Kingdom will, just like a burned up tree, return to the ground.

    >>If you will please, give a reasonable explaination of how the burning up of a single tree could be applied to a single person burning forever.

    -Let's look at the next scripture on your list:

    Matthew 18:8 If, then, your hand or your foot is making you stumble, cut it off and throw it away from you; it is finer for you to enter into life maimed or lame than to be thrown with two hands or two feet into the everlasting fire. 9 Also, if your eye is making you stumble, tear it out and throw it away from you; it is finer for you to enter one-eyed into life than to be thrown with two eyes into the fiery Ge?hen?na.

    >As I have mentioned before Jesus used illusrtations that the people whom he taught could easily understand. Perhaps you are unaware that Ge?hen?na refers to the Valley of Hinnom which was just outside the walls of Jerusalem. During Jesus day this is where the dead bodies of criminals and other trash was dumped to be totally destroyed by fires that were kept burning. Then just like today dead bodies can be totally destroyed by fire. I can see nothing in this illustration that would indicate everlasting torment. It seems much more reasonable to understand this illustration as teaching that it would be better to conduct your life in such a way as to avoid the shameful lack of a burial that criminals receive. As regards the words "everlasting fire", perhaps to some degree the fire seemed everlasting (but it's not there now) however it would have been obvious that the dead bodies didn't stay there for very long. Also it would be as obvious that those dead bodies were not feeling a thing.

    >>Please do, in your very own words, explain to me how this illusrtation could apply to everlasting torment in Hell.

    I'm out of time for now.

    Please do respond to my inquiries. That way I can determine how interested you actually are in a reasonable discussion and exchange of information on this topic.

    I'll hopefully be able to respond to more of these scriptures on Thursday.

    Until next time.

    Lynna.



    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #54 - October 20, 2009, 11:29 PM

    Have you actually read them in context? Or was this list just an exercise in cut and paste for you?


    The words are there in the Bible, just like the words of the Quran are there in the Quran. Now, everytime an atheist quotes the Quran, Muslims start crying "oh but the context! the context!", as though a verse that has the words "beat your wife" can somehow be justified. I guess if a person's bias lies towards following a certain religion, they'll find all sorts of justifications for its more distasteful parts. Just like you are doing with the Bible. And if a person's bias lies towards looking at things a bit more objectively and taking people and texts as they themselves claim, then they'll be curious as to why these texts say what they say when they don't really mean what they say.

    Please do respond to my inquiries. That way I can determine how interested you actually are in a reasonable discussion and exchange of information on this topic.


    A reasonable discussion would necessitate that both of us look at what the Bible actually says, not dilute it or transmogrify but really, honestly consider that these divinely inspired texts are chock full of fear-mongering, infanticide, misogyny and homophobia, and yes, the threat of everlasting torture in "hell" whichever way you choose to understand that. I am familiar with the origin of the word Gehenna as well as the Islamic word for hell (Jahannum) both based on the Valley of Hinnom.

    Thing is, just like you I do not believe in hell or everlasting fire or any such nonsense either. Smiley As a pantheist-atheist with a love for studying mythologies of all kinds, be they Egyptian, Greek, Indian, Chinese, Christian, Islamic, Hebrew, Sumerian, or any other, I do not actually believe that any of them is "The Truth", but they are all part of human history and have shaped our cultures in various ways. My purpose in posting those verses was to respond to you saying that there were no references to a "burning hell" in the Bible. Now, I know from your past postings that you subscribe to a version of Christianity that denies the existence of hell, so at least, we have that much in common Smiley The difference is, I don't have a need to explain or excuse the Bible or justify it or reinterpret to suit me. Same for the Quran/Hadiths.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."

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  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #55 - October 22, 2009, 11:06 PM

    Hi Allat,

    You of course are can believe or disbelieve whatever you want.

    It is my thought, if you are actually interested in the believes of other culture you would actually be interest in objectively considering the history and language behind those believes.

    Did you actually watch the video that Hassan posted (reply #14) on this thread? You may actually be able to find some interesting information about the word hell and the words it was translated from.

    To say the word "hell" is in the Bible so the Bible supports the teaching of a place of everlasting burning torment is, as far as I can tell, an admission that you have not truthfully investigated the subject.

    How about just looking at a dictionary definition of the word "hell". This one happens to be from Online Plain Text English Dictionary:

    Hell
    (v. t.) A dungeon or prison; also, in certain running games, a place to which those who are caught are carried for detention.
    (v. t.) A gambling house.
    (v. t.) A place into which a tailor throws his shreds, or a printer his broken type.
    (v. t.) A place where outcast persons or things are gathered
    (v. t.) The place of the dead, or of souls after death; the grave; -- called in Hebrew sheol, and by the Greeks hades.
    (v. t.) The place or state of punishment for the wicked after death; the abode of evil spirits. Hence, any mental torment; anguish.
    (v. t.) To overwhelm.

    So if we wanted to look at the phrase, "he hath killed hath power to cast into hell", and do so completely out of context, what kind of stories could we make up? Humm...
    -"he hath killed hath power to cast into the gambling house"
    -"he hath killed hath power to cast into the place which a tailor throws his shreds"
    -"he hath killed hath power to cast into a dungeon"
    -"he hath killed hath power to cast into the grave"

    How about this information from Thefreedictionary.com

    [Middle English helle, from Old English; see kel-1 in Indo-European roots.]
    Word History: Hell comes to us directly from Old English hel. Because the Roman Church prevailed in England from an early date, the Romanthat is, Mediterraneanbelief that hell was hot prevailed there too; in Old English hel is a black and fiery place of eternal torment for the damned. But because the Vikings were converted to Christianity centuries after the Anglo-Saxons, the Old Norse hel, from the same source as Old English hel, retained its earlier pagan senses as both a place and a person. As a place, hel is the abode of oathbreakers, other evil persons, and those unlucky enough not to have died in battle. It contrasts sharply with Valhalla, the hall of slain heroes. Unlike the Mediterranean hell, the Old Norse hel is very cold. Hel is also the name of the goddess or giantess who presides in hel, the half blue-black, half white daughter of Loki and the giantess Angrbotha. The Indo-European root behind these Germanic words is *kel-, "to cover, conceal" (so hell is the "concealed place"); it also gives us hall, hole, hollow, and helmet.

    Do you get the point? The history and context is of great value when considering the meaning of words.

    I suppose if I selected just one word from your post and picked an alternative definition I could make it seem as if you were saying something completely different. I wont bother to do that because it's not my style to twist words and hide behind circular arguements.

    The words are there in the Bible, just like the words of the Quran are there in the Quran. Now, everytime an atheist quotes the Quran, Muslims start crying "oh but the context! the context!",... I guess if a person's bias lies towards following a certain religion, they'll find all sorts of justifications for its more distasteful parts. Just like you are doing with the Bible. And if a person's bias lies towards looking at things a bit more objectively and taking people and texts as they themselves claim, then they'll be curious as to why these texts say what they say when they don't really mean what they say.


    I suppose the above statement is meant to clearly show your bias, to which you are completely entitled. However that is not proof in and of itself that your's is the correct understanding of the subject. What I see as a lack of objective thinking on the subject is the statement, "Now, everytime an atheist quotes". It is seldom, if ever, the case that statements that include "everytime a(n) (insert group of choice) quotes... ",is an objective statement. Swiping statements using stereotypical discription of a group generally tend to be prejudical. Did you in fact intend to have such a meaning? Think of the statement, "everytime a teenager asks to go to a party they intend to get drunk". That statement simply is not true, any more the your statement about atheists. Case in point is the video (reply #14 on this thread) that I referred to is most certainly presented by an atheist. The information about the word "hell" is most certainly based on easily obtainable information. I just don't happen to agree with the conclusion that is come to by means of that information. Perhaps you do. That point however that I am trying to make is information is not necessarily suspect solely on bases of who presents it.

    A reasonable discussion would necessitate that both of us look at what the Bible actually says, not dilute it or transmogrify but really, honestly consider that these divinely inspired texts are chock full of fear-mongering, infanticide, misogyny and homophobia, and yes, the threat of everlasting torture in "hell" whichever way you choose to understand that. I am familiar with the origin of the word Gehenna as well as the Islamic word for hell (Jahannum) both based on the Valley of Hinnom.


    Exactly right a reasonable discussion necessitate that both of us look at what the Bible actually says. So, I was of some hope that you had more of a knowledge of the subject then to  just say "The words are there in the Bible, just like the words of the Quran are there in the Quran." Exactly what words are in the Bible? She'ol? Had'es? From where did the English word "hell" come? When historically was the belief in a hell of torment added to the dogma of Christendom? Not even all the Scriptures you presented use the word "hell".  The Bible clearly states in more then one place that there is the use of illustration there in. (Rev 1:1, Mt 13:3, Mt 13:10, Mk 4:2 for starters). You can believe that or not, as you deside to. However what you deside doesn't change the fact that the Bible speaks truthfully about it's self.  As regards the Qur'an I would be greatly interested to know if the Qur'an itself makes the claim to be 100% literially true or if that is just the claim of some Muslim believers. If in fact the Valley of Hinnom is the inspiration for some of the Hell verses in the Qur'an it might be mildly amusing to look at how that would inpact the Qur'an's version of hell. Be that as it may be.

    Until another time.
    Lynna.


    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #56 - October 22, 2009, 11:23 PM

    Lynna, I do have a bias and so do you. My bias is that I look at these things objectively (no matter how painful the reality of them) while you and other religious folks are biased toward needing to apologize, explain, excuse, justify and "re-interpret" what's obviously distasteful within the religious traditions you choose to subscribe to. I'm really not interested in long diatribes, I've done it before and frankly, it's boring as neither of us will change our minds about these things just because the other one wants them to - I think we understand where we are similar and where we differ. Please don't presume that I or others have no background in the study of Biblical exegesis or that your version of the Bible's interpretation is the "right" one. Even if according to you, the likes of me aren't going to hell, and that we'll just "disappear", it's totally fine with me that you believe that. You have the right to believe that. What you don't have the right to do is force upon me or anyone else that your version of things is the only "correct" way of interpreting the Bible or that your version of religion/philosophy is the only right way to live. I've made my points by quoting the Bible, now you can take it apart, and by all means, as I've already told you, I do like the no-hell version of Christian mythology a lot better than the other versions, but just because we *would like* something to be true, doesn't make it so. I also liked the 3rd Harry Potter book a lot more than the 5th one, doesn't mean I can just rewrite or "re-interpret" what was already there and is there and will continue to be there in black and white text long after we're gone. In any case... Good luck in your journey.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."

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  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #57 - October 22, 2009, 11:33 PM

    Yes but apart from those. You're cheating.  Cheesy


     hope Oh no I must repent!

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  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #58 - October 23, 2009, 12:16 AM

    So, Allat,
    You think you made points by quoting the Bible? Interesting. Want are those points good for?
    Until another time.
    Lynna










    If at first you succeed...try something harder.

    Failing isn't falling down. Failing is not getting back up again.
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #59 - October 23, 2009, 06:39 AM

    Lynna, that's a totally amazing post, but not in the way you might have intended it to be. whistling2

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
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