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Theme Changer

 Topic: Putting Faith in its Place

 (Read 37114 times)
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  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #120 - November 14, 2009, 11:02 AM

    There is alot of evidence of an intelligent design as regards the creation. The Bible gives credit to Jehovah stating all the things he made were good.

    That is not evidence. That is what is known as an unsupported assertion.  Wink


    Quote
    I just resently read an acticle about the how the feathers of the owl make them soundless (or very very little sound) during flight. The article also brought out how advantageous soundless (or very very quiet) commercial airliners would be, but as of yet none have been designed. Even very smart and modivated men and women have not been able to design such a quiet commercial airliner.  So if we know it is hard to design things that work well why would we want to look at the complex and wonderful things in the creation and think they happened by accident? I think it is far more reasonable to give credit to Jehovah.

    That is not a particularly good analogy, Lynna. There are factors you are not considering.

    First is that if owls do not hunt successfully they will die. If have never heard of a plane designer or engineer being put to death because a plane they were responsible for was a bit too noisy. This is not a joke. I am quite serious. Owls have a great "incentive" to be quiet.

    Second, owls are not required to cruise at speeds of five hundred miles per hour at altitudes in excess of thirty thousand feet, which means that owls do not require two thumping great jet engines on each wing. If owls did require this I assure you that "Jehovah" would have had a lot more difficulty "creating" silent owls. In fact I would expect such owls to be renowned as the noisiest birds on earth.

    Bottom line: you are trying to compare chalk and cheese.


    Quote
    I'm a nurse, not a surgical nurse but I've had the opportunity to see several surgeries. When I have seen the inside of a living functioning human body it is awesome. Wonderfully made. I see the evidence of a designer, and no possibility of it happening by accident. No matter how many trillions and trillions of accidents are said to have occurred untold eons, I find that an unreasonable explanation for the complexity of a single life form let alone our entire earths ecosystems.

    This is a common logical fallacy known as the argument from personal incredulity. Examples are easy to find. For instance, when the first steam locomotives were introduced there was a common belief that human beings could not survive speeds much faster than a galloping horse. It was thought that a train travelling at sixty miles per hour would result in the death of its passengers. Why? Well because nobody had ever travelled that fast and it "seemed impossible" that anyone could survive at such a speed. Of course we now know that humans are quite chuffed about travelling fast and tend to go for it at any opportunity. Scratch one theory based on personal incredulity.

    If you have no knowledge of how biology and particularly evolution work then yes, bodies may seem to be impossible without a designer. This just reflects your limited knowledge. Smiley   


    Quote
    I have no idea what kind of evidence you want. There are people who claim if they saw miracles like happened in the Bible they would believe. This however did not occur for all during Bible times. The Israelites leaving Egypt saw great acts of Jehovah but they still didn't believe enough to live their life by God's directions. The Bible records Jesus by Jehovah's power healing ten men of leprosy. Only one of those cured acknowledged the source of the cure by returning to give thanks and praise Jehovah.

    Brief note regarding the Exodus: it never happened. It is mythology, not history.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #121 - November 14, 2009, 11:20 AM

    Quote
    Second, owls are not required to cruise at speeds of five hundred miles per hour at altitudes in excess of thirty thousand feet, which means that owls do not require two thumping great jet engines on each wing. If owls did require this I assure you that "Jehovah" would have had a lot more difficulty "creating" silent owls. In fact I would expect such owls to be renowned as the noisiest birds on earth.


     Cheesy Cheesy  Cheesy

    Another reason you're comparing chalk and cheese, Lynna - owls are biological organisms, aeroplanes are not.  An aeroplane cannot reproduce and therefore cannot evolve slowly through descent with modification.  This is why natural selection can act on owls, favouring the silent hunters' chances of passing on their genes over their noisier counterparts, until eventually owls per se become silent hunters. 

    Aeroplanes have no genes, cannot reproduce and are therefore a useless analogy for evolution.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #122 - November 14, 2009, 11:46 AM

    Let's hope Noah comes by in his ark soon Lynna, you appear to be drowning.

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #123 - November 14, 2009, 02:19 PM

    I think it is far more reasonable to give credit to Jehovah


    Why Jehova? Why not Allah? Brahma? Jomulju? Pangu? Demiurge? Marduk? Atum?  Ptah? Kamui? Izanagi and Izanami? Unkulunkulu? Ranginui? Viracocha? etc...

    Or my particular favourite The Giant Mbombo, who vomited out the world upon feeling a stomach ache.

    Hell is an absurd & wicked fiction. You're not a bad person for rejecting something that's cruel, irrational, unjust & lacks evidence. You have nothing to fear. Nothing to feel ashamed about. Enjoy your life. Do the best you can. Make yourself & others happy.
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #124 - November 14, 2009, 02:21 PM

    Quote
    Or my particular favourite The Giant Mbombo, who vomited out the world upon feeling a stomach ache.


    You just made that one up.   Tongue

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #125 - November 14, 2009, 02:26 PM

    You just made that one up.   Tongue


    "In the Bakuba account of demiurge, the Earth was originally nothing but water and darkness, ruled by the giant Mbombo. This giant, after feeling an intense pain in his stomach one day, vomited up the sun, moon, and stars...  Mbombo vomited once more. Many things were contained in this second vomiting - people (the first man and the first woman), animals (the leopard, the eagle, and the monkey Fumu), trees, the falling star, the anvil, the firmament, the razor, medicine, and lighting... "

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_myths

    Tongue

    Hell is an absurd & wicked fiction. You're not a bad person for rejecting something that's cruel, irrational, unjust & lacks evidence. You have nothing to fear. Nothing to feel ashamed about. Enjoy your life. Do the best you can. Make yourself & others happy.
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #126 - November 14, 2009, 02:27 PM

    You just made that one up.   Tongue

    So what if he did - isnt that how the rest of the list was conceived? Wink

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #127 - November 14, 2009, 02:30 PM

    "In the Bakuba account of demiurge, the Earth was originally nothing but water and darkness, ruled by the giant Mbombo. This giant, after feeling an intense pain in his stomach one day, vomited up the sun, moon, and stars...  Mbombo vomited once more. Many things were contained in this second vomiting - people (the first man and the first woman), animals (the leopard, the eagle, and the monkey Fumu), trees, the falling star, the anvil, the firmament, the razor, medicine, and lighting... "

    Thats one to certainly attempt to store in the memory banks - how did you come across this vomitting God?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #128 - November 14, 2009, 02:34 PM

    Wow.   wacko

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #129 - November 14, 2009, 02:41 PM

    Thats one to certainly attempt to store in the memory banks - how did you come across this vomitting God?


    Just looked up 'Creation Myths' Smiley

    Hell is an absurd & wicked fiction. You're not a bad person for rejecting something that's cruel, irrational, unjust & lacks evidence. You have nothing to fear. Nothing to feel ashamed about. Enjoy your life. Do the best you can. Make yourself & others happy.
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #130 - November 14, 2009, 03:50 PM

    The ancient Egyptians also had one who jacked off and created two twin gods apparently...

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #131 - November 14, 2009, 04:03 PM

    Atum created the god Shu and goddess Tefnut from his semen by masturbation in the city of Annu   Cheesy

    http://bulfinch.englishatheist.org/b/pantheon/God-List-A.htm

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #132 - November 14, 2009, 11:44 PM

    Hi Lynna,

    Thanks for your answer to Jephthah's story. I'm a bit busy atm, so please don't mind if I take some time to reply.

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
    Wikis: en de fr ar tr
    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #133 - November 19, 2009, 08:02 PM

    Oh my gosh!!

    For some reason, I never quite expected to see a JW actively 'preaching' on this site.

    I have observed such folk pretty much 'owned' on ex-JW sites but it's even more pleasing to see the posters here do a great job too, despite coming from various backgrounds and faiths! Makes for very entertaining and enlightening reading!!  Afro

    It's encouraging to see non-JWs find the same 'holes' in witness doctrine as ex-JWs  dance

     thnkyu

  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #134 - November 19, 2009, 08:14 PM

    I almost forgot you are an ex-JW - perhaps you could throw a few arguments Lynna's way to assist in closing the JW coffin lid shut

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #135 - November 19, 2009, 08:27 PM

    Hmmm... maybe I might, or maybe not.

    You see, just like with muslims, JWs are far more willing to debate with 'outsiders' rather than 'apostates'.
    Any objections we might raise are dismissed as resentment/bitterness/having an axe to grind and..... turning our back on the 'truth'!!

    So hopefully, critiques from non-witnesses might help sow the seeds of doubt and encourage logical thinking.

    I do know that JWs are certainly forbidden from venturing onto 'apostate' websites and are cautioned against spending too much time arguing with disbelievers lest it 'weaken the faith' as the big bad guy, satan the devil, controls us all  Wink

  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #136 - November 19, 2009, 08:30 PM

    I dont think Lynne is like that - she's pretty reasonable.  Also I think you are underestimating the power of the mere presence an apostate has in front of a believer.  You used to see the world like she did, and now you have moved on - that must be humbling when put to a JW.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #137 - November 19, 2009, 08:46 PM

    I do know that JWs are certainly forbidden from venturing onto 'apostate' websites and are cautioned against spending too much time arguing with disbelievers lest it 'weaken the faith' as the big bad guy, satan the devil, controls us all  Wink


    Hmm.. Sounds familiar. There is one other point that muslims add to this, and that's they shouldn't concern themselves with discussions from which there is no benefit to be derived.
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #138 - November 19, 2009, 08:48 PM

    You are right. One can never assume what a person would be/is like especially since I have not yet engaged with her in discussion.

    The fact that she spends a lot of time defending her faith and makes the effort to answer everyone's questions to the best of her abilities is testament to her genuine willingness to engage in sensible discussion.

    I have not read all of her posts yet, partly because I have only just come across this thread today, but also because I know I will be reminded of all the beliefs I used to have and the wide range of emotions and thoughts that usually accompany such flashbacks.

    However, I am intrigued to see what she has to say and maybe I will have a few questions to put forth to her myself  Smiley

  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #139 - November 19, 2009, 08:58 PM

    Hmm.. Sounds familiar. There is one other point that muslims add to this, and that's they shouldn't concern themselves with discussions from which there is no benefit to be derived.



    I don't have immediate access to resources, but I have seen the same thought expressed in witness literature and publications, similar to the 'pearls before swine' analogy.

    I think the reason I still peek at this forum from time to time is because there are several similarities in muslims and jws, that and the fact that my mum is jw and my dad is muslim....  Roll Eyes Tongue bunny

  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #140 - November 27, 2009, 03:39 PM

    Is this a joke?  God can't be proved by logic... der! What a revelation that is.  Logic is a tool of a limited human mind.  Our mind makes use of it certainly for getting on with our daily lives.  ie one step in front of another and we will move forward.  Logicians have show the benefts and flaws of logic even in debates pertaining to the physical nature of creation.  As far back as ancient greece this was understood and logic given a secondary role in metaphysical debates and most effectively directed to algebra and geometry.  (and by the way much of current physics defies logic). For metaphysical issues logic is almost redundant.  It can provide metaphors to provide meditation and intuitive thought.  This is just so dumb.  I understand you feel a need to prosletize here.  Indeed the irreligious zeal exhibited here is fercvent to be sure but really you need to learn tolerance and not to so arrogantly from a position of such ignorance
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #141 - November 27, 2009, 05:53 PM

    I think the reason I still peek at this forum from time to time is because there are several similarities in muslims and jws, that and the fact that my mum is jw and my dad is muslim....  Roll Eyes Tongue bunny



    Would just like to say that taking the 'e' out of 'jew' was a master-stroke, must saved you some very important mili-seconds. I wonder what you will do them.

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #142 - November 27, 2009, 05:54 PM

     Cheesy

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #143 - November 27, 2009, 06:05 PM

    And incidentally, not long ago, I lost a few mili-seconds taking the p out of religion. I'd like to make them up, is anyone into swapsies? Smiley

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #144 - November 27, 2009, 07:30 PM


    Would just like to say that taking the 'e' out of 'jew' was a master-stroke, must saved you some very important mili-seconds. I wonder what you will do them.


    She wasn't saying "Jew", she was saying jw as in Jehovah's Witnesses.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."

    Help keep this forum going! Donate to the Council of ExMuslims here: ex-muslim.org.uk/donate
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #145 - November 27, 2009, 08:11 PM

    O, right, i see, makes sense now Afro

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #146 - January 28, 2010, 05:50 PM

    Is this a joke?  God can't be proved by logic... der! What a revelation that is.  Logic is a tool of a limited human mind.  Our mind makes use of it certainly for getting on with our daily lives.  ie one step in front of another and we will move forward.  Logicians have show the benefts and flaws of logic even in debates pertaining to the physical nature of creation.  As far back as ancient greece this was understood and logic given a secondary role in metaphysical debates and most effectively directed to algebra and geometry.  (and by the way much of current physics defies logic). For metaphysical issues logic is almost redundant.  It can provide metaphors to provide meditation and intuitive thought.  This is just so dumb.  I understand you feel a need to prosletize here.  Indeed the irreligious zeal exhibited here is fercvent to be sure but really you need to learn tolerance and not to so arrogantly from a position of such ignorance


    You are right that it is certainly no revelation to say that God cannot be proved by logic, just as it is no revelation that there is not a single scientific claim that can be proved by logic. Though I think the maker of the video will agree to both of those claims above, I think the point he was really trying to push home was that one cannot come up with evidence for anything non-physical, since by definition, anything non-physical lacks the defining property of anything physical - perceivability. This is where God differs from science, because scientific claims can hold evidence in its favour, exactly because it makes a claim about the perceivable physical dimension.

    You say that logicians have pointed out flaws in logic. I'm not sure what you think logic is, because it seems to me that the only way in which logic could be shown to have flaws is through the use of logic itself. In which case, the "flaw" would not be a flaw in logic. What would have actually occured is a logician with a proper (or at least better) understanding of logic would have pointed out the flaw in a mistaken understanding of logic. I'm equally confused at how physics could defy logic...

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #147 - January 11, 2011, 05:13 AM

    love it... i can especially relate to the last few minutes Wink



    Quod est inferius est sicut quod est superius,
    et quod est superius est sicut quod est inferius,
    ad perpetranda miracula rei unius.
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #148 - January 11, 2011, 05:18 AM

    Damn Bella, you're really catching up for lost time here, huh?  Smiley

    fuck you
  • Re: Putting Faith in its Place
     Reply #149 - January 11, 2011, 05:59 AM

    I'm sorry  Cry  I miss a lot of things and will probably take forever to catch up  mysmilie_977



    Quod est inferius est sicut quod est superius,
    et quod est superius est sicut quod est inferius,
    ad perpetranda miracula rei unius.
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