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 Topic: List of Contradictions in the Qur'an

 (Read 8500 times)
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  • Re: List of Contradictions in the Qur'an
     Reply #30 - January 08, 2010, 05:24 PM

    Yeah, I think you guys are reaching for something that's not there.

    These verses do not state specifcially state whether God initially created the heavens or earth first. Rather it is obvious the verses refer to the sequence in which he further developed and made adjustments to His creations - i.e. 'He gave it order and perfection', 'He spread the earth' (this could mean a number of things), 'He created all that is in the earth', 'He turned to the heaven and fashioned it as seven heavens'.

    I know you guys can do better than this.

    By the way I have a blog which completely refutes most of the claims in Hassan's 'Scientific miracles' video. If you would like to try and prove my claims wrong please visit my blog and scroll down to the relevant section:

    abuyunus2.wordpress.com

    Best wishes
    Abu Yunus

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: List of Contradictions in the Qur'an
     Reply #31 - January 08, 2010, 05:43 PM

    Thanks - will take a look (be nice if you would introduce yourself in another thread Wink)

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: List of Contradictions in the Qur'an
     Reply #32 - January 08, 2010, 06:15 PM

    Thanks IsLame - the nicest response I've had on here since signing up this afternoon!! Hope you enjoy the blog, I would be keen to hear your thoughts even if they are critical.

     Smiley

    PS I do not want to publicly formally introduce myself in case I get booed of the stage  Afro

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: List of Contradictions in the Qur'an
     Reply #33 - January 08, 2010, 06:22 PM

    Don't worry about being booed, just tell us about yourself briefly, if you want of course Afro

    Sorry for assuming you are a nut case. You seem like a smart individual.

    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
  • Re: List of Contradictions in the Qur'an
     Reply #34 - January 08, 2010, 06:22 PM

    He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens. And He is knower of all things. (Al-Baqara 29)

    If he turned to the heaven after he finished creating all that is on Earth, then I take it as meaning that the Earth came first

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: List of Contradictions in the Qur'an
     Reply #35 - January 08, 2010, 06:30 PM

    Cool Canadian, no worries mate. I kind of expected it to be honest.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: List of Contradictions in the Qur'an
     Reply #36 - January 08, 2010, 06:38 PM

    ''He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens. And He is knower of all things. (Al-Baqara 29)

    If he turned to the heaven after he finished creating all that is on Earth, then I take it as meaning that the Earth came first''

    Ras111, OK, but the verse says 'Then He turned to the Heaven' suggesting the Heaven was already there - the verse simply indicates He made that one already existing heaven into seven heavens. From these verses, it is not possible to determine, in my opinion, if the initial creation of the earth, or the initial creation of the heaven came first, or whether in fact they were created in their initial form at the same time.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: List of Contradictions in the Qur'an
     Reply #37 - January 08, 2010, 06:41 PM

    ''He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens. And He is knower of all things. (Al-Baqara 29)


    Ras111, OK, but the verse says 'Then He turned to the Heaven' suggesting the Heaven was already there - the verse simply indicates He made that one already existing heaven into seven heavens. From these verses, it is not possible to determine, in my opinion, if the initial creation of the earth, or the initial creation of the heaven came first, or whether in fact they were created in their initial form at the same time.


    First you have to tell me what is being referred to by the term 'seven heavens' in your opinion...

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: List of Contradictions in the Qur'an
     Reply #38 - January 08, 2010, 07:06 PM

    I don't think he is in a position to give opinions. It takes more than regular Muslims to give viewpoints on verses.

    Look at the commentary for the verse, if you want to see what it means. This is a note I have on this;

        Note 20 (Quran Ref: 2:29 )

        The term sama' ("heaven" or "sky") is applied to anything that is spread like a canopy above any other thing. Thus, the visible skies which stretch like a vault above the earth and form, as it were, its canopy, are called sama': and this is the primary meaning of this term in the Qur'an; in a wider sense, it has the connotation of "cosmic system". As regards the "seven heavens", it is to be borne in mind that in Arabic usage - and apparently in other Semitic languages as well - the number "seven" is often synonymous with "several" (see Lisan al-Arab), just as "seventy" or "seven hundred" often means "many" or "very many" (Taj al-'Arus). This, taken together with the accepted linguistic definition that "every samu' is a sama' with regard to what is below it" (Raghib), may explain the "seven heavens" as denoting the multiplicity of cosmic systems. - For my rendering of thumma, at the beginning of this sentence, as "and", see surah 7, first part of note 43.(Quran Ref: 2:29 )

    For those who understand, no explanation is necessary. For those who refuse to understand, no explanation is possible.
  • Re: List of Contradictions in the Qur'an
     Reply #39 - January 08, 2010, 09:01 PM

    Damn, I just got told  lipsrsealed Thanks for helping me out though.  Wink

    If my humble opinion is worth anything though, the seven (or several) heavens may refer to seperate universes. Since stars are found throughout our universe it appears that the word 'heaven' in the following verse is referring to our universe.

    ''We have indeed decked the lower heaven with beauty (in) the stars''

    37:6

    Therefore there may be 6 (or several more) additional universes in addition to ours. This idea may be consistent with current 'multiverse' theories. Indeed in the current popular 'bubble universes' model, new universes are thought to 'sprout' out from an existing universe. This would be consistent with what is present in the verses in question where God says he fashioned seven (or several heavens) from an already existing universe.

    I thought it would be OK to offer my opinion since commentaries on the Quran are written by men themselves who of course have no divine authority.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: List of Contradictions in the Qur'an
     Reply #40 - January 08, 2010, 09:36 PM

    The thing is that the world was created 9,000,000 years after the big bang.  Abuyunus, I am sorry but to associate the bubble universe theory with that verse is simply pure speculation.  My personal belief is that it refers to the 7 known planets of ancient astronomy.  This includes the sun, the moon and the first 5 planets.  7 is a mystical number with great importance in astronomy.

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: List of Contradictions in the Qur'an
     Reply #41 - January 08, 2010, 10:30 PM

    The one thing that turns me away from an omnipotent god is how bad he is at forseeing the implications of his demands. Just look at 4:34, does he want men to beat their wives or not? Some say yes, some say no, but at the end of the day, many muslims do think they have a god given right to beat their wives due to that verse, and if a god can not forsee that if he does not state in clear cut words what he wants, then it will lead to suffering for many innocent people, then its hard to belive in that god. I don't really care about contradictions in the quran. What I care about is the implications of God's demands, and those are for everyone to see in muslim countries. Of course the christian countries had the same problems until christianity fortunately took a back step in most western countries.

    If an omnipotent god supposedly has a set of rules that are supposed to create the perfect society, but still does not, then obviously you are going to doubt that god.

    I know its a diversion, but I just wanted to clarify that to me its rather the fact that the quran is written in riddles rather than clear cut words, which makes me doubt it. Because this leads to many "misunderstanings", which lead to suffering for many people.

    Its also really hard to find contradictions in a book that everyone are free to interpret as they like.
  • Re: List of Contradictions in the Qur'an
     Reply #42 - January 08, 2010, 11:35 PM

    ras111,

    These verses are evidently sometimes open to different interpretations which is why I tend to refrain from saying the verse definitley says this or that. But as you correctly point out the earth formed million of years after the big bang. Therefore if we take the verses in the sequence presented here:


    ''Are you harder to create, or the heavens that He built? He raised its canopy, and He gave it order and perfection. And He made dark its night and brought out its light. Then after that He spread the earth''. (An-Nazi'aat 27-30)



    ''He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens. And He is knower of all things.'' (Al-Baqara 29)
     
    a possible interpretation is that God first created the initial universe (our universe) and after that He created the earth. After creating everything for us in the earth, He then turned back to the heaven (our universe) and caused other universes to sprout out from our own universe (i.e. the bubble model).

    Of course I can not prove God meant this, and of course my bubble model incorporation is mere speculation. My aim here is to simply demonstrate the two verses need not contradict each other and indeed todays science.

    In addition, your proposal that the seven heavens is refering to the sun, moon and 5 known planets at the time to me appears flawed. Since there is of course the verse which says:

    ''We have indeed decked the lower heaven with beauty (in) the stars''

    37:6


    It appears that God is referring to the lower heaven i.e. our universe as containing the stars. This is contradictory to the notion that one of the heavens consists of either the the moon, sun, or one of the five known planets. Indeed a claim that I have discussed previously is the accusation that the seven heavens of the universe is meant to be a plagiarisation of the precorpernican model. If you are interested in this and other points regarding science and the Quran you can visit my blog. Simply type 'abuyunus2' into google search and click the 'A response to Abooali' link.


    Best wishes
    Abu Yunus

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: List of Contradictions in the Qur'an
     Reply #43 - January 09, 2010, 01:26 AM

    ras111,

    ''Are you harder to create, or the heavens that He built? He raised its canopy, and He gave it order and perfection.



    Not really... Systems being affected drastically by slight changes in initial conditions is not really order....

    And He made dark its night and brought out its light. Then after that He spread the earth''. (An-Nazi'aat 27-30)


    First he raises a canopy and makes it dark and then he spreads solid ground under it.  My impression is that this is the sky, and then the ground was spread beneath it.  If you are referring to geological processes that formed the Earth then it is a very inaccurate description.


    Of course I can not prove God meant this, and of course my bubble model incorporation is mere speculation. My aim here is to simply demonstrate the two verses need not contradict each other and indeed todays science.

    In addition, your proposal that the seven heavens is refering to the sun, moon and 5 known planets at the time to me appears flawed. Since there is of course the verse which says:


    It is a possible interpretation but only because you know what the bubble theory is, and the verse is so vague and short that you could make it mean anything.  One would expect an almighty creator to be a bit more specific about what he meant and provide an accurate description that could not be doubted.  There is no contradiction with science because the verse is so vague that you can simply make it mean anything you like, and that is not much of a miracle.  I could also write stuff like that.  

    This is the same thing as with the Book of Nostradamus.  Full of vague verses that could mean anything. Up til now no one has managed to predict a specific future event using his book.


    It appears that God is referring to the lower heaven i.e. our universe as containing the stars. This is contradictory to the notion that one of the heavens consists of either the the moon, sun, or one of the five known planets. Indeed a claim that I have discussed previously is the accusation that the seven heavens of the universe is meant to be a plagiarisation of the precorpernican model. If you are interested in this and other points regarding science and the Quran you can visit my blog. Simply type 'abuyunus2' into google search and click the 'A response to Abooali' link.


    Or it could imply that the stars were added to the lower heaven (already containing something else) for decoration, which is also wrong scientifically...


    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: List of Contradictions in the Qur'an
     Reply #44 - January 09, 2010, 02:04 AM

    I dont put too much stock into the contradictions either. even on the Skeptics Annotated site, for the Quran, there's like 30 contradictions and for the Bible there's like 100. There are no clear cut contradictions like the bible has, where one place it says that Joseph's father is X and in another his father is Y. However, verses that I do feel are worthy of being discussed are 5:69 and 5:72.

    Quote
    005.069
    YUSUFALI: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

    05.072
    YUSUFALI: They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help. 


    Verse 69 says that no fear shall be on the x-tians, Jews, and Muslims. I assume this means that as long as they are righteous and what not, they won't be scared on the day of reckoning and they'll go to heaven. Or at the very least, they're good people.

    Verse 72 says that those who commit shirk, the worst sin is Allah's eyes, will burn in hell. So Allah doesnt want Christians to grieve or have fear because they believe in Allah and the Last day blah blah blah. OK. These are the same Christians who say that Christ and God are the same, aren't they? If so, then why would Allah tell them not to have fear as long as they believe in him and the last day? Are these x-tians specifically not shirk-committers? Was there ever a point in time at which the majority of christians were non-trinitarian? As far as I know, the concept of Christ's divinity has officially been around since the Council of Nicea in 325, although it was obviously believed before that. And if Allah is only referring to a small subset of x-tians, then why refer to them wholly as "the Christians". Why not mention that these x-tians dont commit shirk. In any case, the verse is not specific. It is meant to include all those who believe, as it says. So does this count as a contradiction?


    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: List of Contradictions in the Qur'an
     Reply #45 - January 09, 2010, 02:17 AM

    Apparently 69 actually means: those jews who were around before Jesus and the xtians/sabians before Mo. Obviously this is an apologetic explanation for an obvious contradiction.
  • Re: List of Contradictions in the Qur'an
     Reply #46 - January 09, 2010, 02:48 AM

    Pretty poor attempt at apologetics. Even if they were the ones before Mo, they still believed the same thing- Christ=God. Its expected anyways, since there's really no way to hide this.

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: List of Contradictions in the Qur'an
     Reply #47 - January 09, 2010, 07:11 PM

    The one thing that turns me away from an omnipotent god is how bad he is at forseeing the implications of his demands. Just look at 4:34, does he want men to beat their wives or not? Some say yes, some say no, but at the end of the day, many muslims do think they have a god given right to beat their wives due to that verse, and if a god can not forsee that if he does not state in clear cut words what he wants, then it will lead to suffering for many innocent people, then its hard to belive in that god. I don't really care about contradictions in the quran. What I care about is the implications of God's demands, and those are for everyone to see in muslim countries. Of course the christian countries had the same problems until christianity fortunately took a back step in most western countries.

    If an omnipotent god supposedly has a set of rules that are supposed to create the perfect society, but still does not, then obviously you are going to doubt that god.

    I know its a diversion, but I just wanted to clarify that to me its rather the fact that the quran is written in riddles rather than clear cut words, which makes me doubt it. Because this leads to many "misunderstanings", which lead to suffering for many people.

    Its also really hard to find contradictions in a book that everyone are free to interpret as they like.


    I agree with you there Balthier, it has always bothered me how cryptic and figurative the quran is when it is supposed to be the one true guide to life for every man. what was the point of putting everything so ambiguously, and whats worse is that even the ambiguity tends to lean towards the destructive side. the average person reading the quran will obviously assume its ok to beat your wife and kill the polythiests wherever you fid them, no matter how many appologists tell you otherwise.



    Quod est inferius est sicut quod est superius,
    et quod est superius est sicut quod est inferius,
    ad perpetranda miracula rei unius.
  • Re: List of Contradictions in the Qur'an
     Reply #48 - January 10, 2010, 12:38 AM

    استوى الى (Istawa ila)

    Means: "He turned to" in the sense of 'one's new/next task.' Much like you would say he finished the foundations then he turned to building the walls. That is how it reads to me. It seems strange to suggest that it means he went back to a half finished job he'd started earlier?  I don't read that in it all. But hey, what do I know - It's God's clear book that no-one seems clear about Wink


    Hell is an absurd & wicked fiction. You're not a bad person for rejecting something that's cruel, irrational, unjust & lacks evidence. You have nothing to fear. Nothing to feel ashamed about. Enjoy your life. Do the best you can. Make yourself & others happy.
  • Re: List of Contradictions in the Qur'an
     Reply #49 - January 10, 2010, 06:59 AM

    it is a bit odd that the almighty would decide to leave something half done then come back to it.. if that is the case at all. some ultimate revelation.



    Quod est inferius est sicut quod est superius,
    et quod est superius est sicut quod est inferius,
    ad perpetranda miracula rei unius.
  • Re: List of Contradictions in the Qur'an
     Reply #50 - January 10, 2010, 08:44 AM

    Theres no full translation of this? google translator doesnt work well   Huh?
  • Re: List of Contradictions in the Qur'an
     Reply #51 - January 11, 2010, 10:38 PM

    Hassan,

    are you thinking of making a vid about contradictions in the quran?

    I think that most muslims have actually seen such lists of contradictions before - and they will also feel sure, that exist refutations of those contradictions on islamic pages. So just giving someone a list would probably not be very interesting.

    However, picking some contradictions, showing the islamic explanation for the contradiction and then giving your own oppinion about it, would probably be better.  As an example, you could show, why certain explanations for contradictions do not convince you.

    UG
  • List of Contradictions in the Qur'an
     Reply #52 - March 21, 2017, 03:15 PM

    ''He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens. And He is knower of all things. (Al-Baqara 29)

    If he turned to the heaven after he finished creating all that is on Earth, then I take it as meaning that the Earth came first''

    Ras111, OK, but the verse says 'Then He turned to the Heaven' suggesting the Heaven was already there - the verse simply indicates He made that one already existing heaven into seven heavens. From these verses, it is not possible to determine, in my opinion, if the initial creation of the earth, or the initial creation of the heaven came first, or whether in fact they were created in their initial form at the same time.


    So you mean to say when Allah says " the earth and the heavens were joined..  The earth and the already made heavens were joined?
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