Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Qur'anic studies today
Yesterday at 11:22 PM

Satanic verses
Yesterday at 09:10 PM

Painted pious ladies
Yesterday at 07:36 PM

Climate catastrophe, sinn...
Yesterday at 03:08 PM

مدهش----- لماذا؟؟؟؟
by akay
Yesterday at 10:12 AM

NayaPakistan...New Pakist...
September 20, 2019, 09:30 PM

Kashmir endgame
September 19, 2019, 02:15 PM

Blasphemy Case of Junaid...
September 19, 2019, 12:57 PM

The Cult of Social Justic...
September 18, 2019, 03:50 PM

The Battle for British Is...
September 17, 2019, 06:28 PM

Muslim heritage?
September 17, 2019, 06:04 PM

Scientists and .............
by akay
September 17, 2019, 06:22 AM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Hadith and Sira historical picture or weak fables?

 (Read 4601 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Hadith and Sira historical picture or weak fables?
     OP - August 14, 2009, 11:10 AM

    Guys - Many studies have been done on these sources by muslims and non-muslims. There are people who have valid opinions claiming that both the above mentioned sources are simply fables and cannot be used to construct a historical account of the life of Muhammed. This is due to the lack of sources available in the seventh century itself. There is also the problem of the "isnaad" which is the pseudo-science of chains of transmission. This science is supposed to be unique to Islam and books have been written to prove the veracity of these accounts. Have any of you read these books and what do you think? Or is it enough to just take the hadith and sira at face value to indict islam?
  • Re: Hadith and Sira historical picture or weak fables?
     Reply #1 - August 14, 2009, 11:45 AM

    Or is it enough to just take the hadith and sira at face value to indict islam?

    Depends on whether the person you are debating with takes them at face value.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hadith and Sira historical picture or weak fables?
     Reply #2 - August 14, 2009, 12:04 PM

    Yeah I know a couple of people who did apostate because the historicity of the sources were questionable themselves. These guys studied at SOAS.
  • Re: Hadith and Sira historical picture or weak fables?
     Reply #3 - August 14, 2009, 02:33 PM

    What is SOAS,

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Hadith and Sira historical picture or weak fables?
     Reply #4 - August 14, 2009, 02:36 PM

    SOAS = School of oriental and african studies. Hass knows more about it he studied there.
  • Re: Hadith and Sira historical picture or weak fables?
     Reply #5 - August 14, 2009, 08:27 PM

    All depend on the level of the Hadith (authenticity);

    now for ex. Bukhari and Muslim narrated the strongest Hadiths in terms of (Science of Hadith) conditions, such as:

    - Chain of Narrators (transmitters), (Science of People), knowing the authenticity of the narrator...etc.

    - Matn (actual text).

    et al.

    Bukhari and Muslim applied the most strict rules when accepting/narrating a hadith, hence theirs are regarded automatically correct by most Sunni Muslims...(few reject the whole package like Quranists, others question a few hadiths by both Bukhari and Muslims)..


    Other narrators such as: Abu Dawood, Al-Nasai'i, had actually many fair and sahih hadiths, among some weak ones...and the list goes on with other less famous/reliable narrators.

    ===========

    As for Siras, basically these are more of historical records about Mu.

    Some stories are well-attested, others ain't;

    I wonder why Muslims take history books seriously and rely on them, but when it comes to Islam they pick the parts they prefer..!



    I consider Hadiths (especially the sahih and hasan) to be a solid form of historical records...and to question the authenticity of these record is like attacking the science we know as (History), given that those scholars set very strict rules and conditions and the said strong memory of Arabs at the time.   


    And Allah knows best... parrot


    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Hadith and Sira historical picture or weak fables?
     Reply #6 - August 14, 2009, 10:38 PM

    That's fine, we can accept the sahih and hassan as valid historical records, but you see muslims then say, you accept the hadith which attest to aisha being 6 years old and accept it because it paints Mo in a bad light. But anything that might "confirm" miracles we reject such as the hadith in which Mo hugs and comforts a tree that starts to cry when he gives his sermon from the mimbar instead of leaning against that tree (something like that). That hadith gained muttawatir status. I see those hadith as just part of stories used to glorify the prophet and that era was abound with stories like that. However things about aisha's age and his day to day dealings can probably be relied upon. The only issue is that there seemed to be a sudden surge of collecting hadith and writing sira. Which arrived on the scene late. For a religion claiming to be the final and universal message it's rather careless. Also when they mention oral reports, they are coming through the sira and hadith literature as well which makes the argument circular.
  • Re: Hadith and Sira historical picture or weak fables?
     Reply #7 - August 14, 2009, 11:58 PM

    Very good point about miracles that I had thought about for long time;

    Muslims themselves deny Mu's miracles according to Quran...and that Quran is his only single miracle.


    Those Sahaba who transmitted such ahadith were IMO deceived somehow, some might say hypnotized or so...I'm not sure, and I generally as an Agnostic do not believe in si7r (whichcraft).

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: Hadith and Sira historical picture or weak fables?
     Reply #8 - August 15, 2009, 09:10 AM

    The thing is people believe in all sorts of rubbish that modern "pirs" claim to do, so it wouldn't be so hard for people to invent such stories 1400 years ago in an era and area where stories like these were rife.
  • Re: Hadith and Sira historical picture or weak fables?
     Reply #9 - August 17, 2009, 03:09 PM

    Muslims still believe in magic...

    Maliki yawm ul LULZ
  • Hadith and Sira historical picture or weak fables?
     Reply #10 - February 23, 2015, 12:35 AM

    As this is an old thread, does anyone have any new thoughts relating to this topic?

    Looking into the dates for the hadiths and biography's of the prophet and considering how these were passed on through oral tradition, I would think that the vast majority of it would be false propaganda and other fabricated sayings and stories designed to further certain ideological and theological viewpoints. I have studied the New Testament and the gospels and they are rife with contradictions and things that just don't add up and these were supposedly based on eyewitness tradition written down only about 40-80 years after the events they attempt to describe. I can't imagine how much stories about Muhammad would have been distorted in a much longer time frame in an environment that was predominantly looking to confirm the Islamic narrative.

    For example, if mormonism had completely taken off in the U.S. and nearly every American was a Mormon, imagine having to piece together the biography of Joseph Smith now. Now assume that there were no written records of his life and we had to rely on oral stories passed from generation to generation by pious Mormons who held Joseph smith to be a perfect role model. Finally, his biography would be in the hands of the most dedicated and faithful Mormons who would shudder at the thought of doubting their faith in such a great man. It seems to me we would get a wildly distorted picture of the man and we wouldn't get to know about all the scandalous info we know about smith today. The biography would abound with fabulous claims of his integrity and dedication to his calling. We would be lucky if even a slight hint of any story shedding negative light would be included, and even then it would attempt to twist them in the most positive light. It seems to me this is what we have on Muhammad and the time frame is really only similar to the very earliest Islamic source we have on him (Ibn Ishaq I believe).

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Hadith and Sira historical picture or weak fables?
     Reply #11 - February 23, 2015, 05:07 AM

    Berg has written a book that is the best sort of objective discussion of these issues that I've seen.

    In general, I'm amazed by the attitude that takes a vast body of miracle-laden and contradictory oral stories, transmitted (per even the orthodox account) by an elaborate telephone game over centuries, and with the vast majority of these stories conceded to be fabrications, and yet thinks that one could sort of subtract the improbable (just delete miracles + magical numbers!) and end up with the likely.  And as is often said with monotheism, once one disbelieves in 99% of the polytheist gods, it's not much of an intellectual jump to disbelieve the last 1%, leaving zero ... there is little reason to pop off every other god as foolish superstition but then, with the last one, say "okay, actually this time seems like we got a good one, he's a keeper."

    The most that one can reliably extract IMO is that some of the hadith traditions were circulating earlier than others, in my opinion, such that some of the base sirah/hadith traditions were demonstrably circulating by the early 8th century.  But as to historicity, I don't think it is possible to ascertain any historical details by any reliable method from the hadith/sirah ... except for the bare fact that such stories were circulating at the later date, and must have been intended to accomplish various purposes at that juncture.
  • Hadith and Sira historical picture or weak fables?
     Reply #12 - February 23, 2015, 06:35 AM

    Do any Muslims reject both the koran and hadith and say they talk directly to Allah?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Hadith and Sira historical picture or weak fables?
     Reply #13 - February 23, 2015, 06:56 AM

    Not that I'm aware of, though it wouldn't surprise me if one or two exist claiming to talk to the islamic version of god, though how they'd consider themselves muslims without believing in the quran is another question...theistic cultural muslim?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Hadith and Sira historical picture or weak fables?
     Reply #14 - February 23, 2015, 08:31 AM

    Berg has written a book that is the best sort of objective discussion of these issues that I've seen.

    In general, I'm amazed by the attitude that takes a vast body of miracle-laden and contradictory oral stories, transmitted (per even the orthodox account) by an elaborate telephone game over centuries, and with the vast majority of these stories conceded to be fabrications, and yet thinks that one could sort of subtract the improbable (just delete miracles + magical numbers!) and end up with the likely.  And as is often said with monotheism, once one disbelieves in 99% of the polytheist gods, it's not much of an intellectual jump to disbelieve the last 1%, leaving zero ... there is little reason to pop off every other god as foolish superstition but then, with the last one, say "okay, actually this time seems like we got a good one, he's a keeper."

    The most that one can reliably extract IMO is that some of the hadith traditions were circulating earlier than others, in my opinion, such that some of the base sirah/hadith traditions were demonstrably circulating by the early 8th century.  But as to historicity, I don't think it is possible to ascertain any historical details by any reliable method from the hadith/sirah ... except for the bare fact that such stories were circulating at the later date, and must have been intended to accomplish various purposes at that juncture.


    What would you say is the argument for considering the Quran a somewhat more reliable historical source?

    Or would you regard it as equally unreliable ?
  • Hadith and Sira historical picture or weak fables?
     Reply #15 - February 23, 2015, 08:52 AM

    Do any Muslims reject both the koran and hadith and say they talk directly to Allah?

     that would be  Theistic Ex-Muslims ... I mean those who think like the parents of the Muhammad and their generation before Islam..

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Hadith and Sira historical picture or weak fables?
     Reply #16 - February 23, 2015, 08:59 AM

    Hadith and Sira historical picture or weak fables?  
    As this is an old thread, does anyone have any new thoughts relating to this topic?

    Looking into the dates for the hadiths and biography's of the prophet and considering how these were passed on through oral tradition, I would think that the vast majority of it would be false propaganda and other fabricated sayings and stories designed to further certain ideological and theological viewpoints..................

    Quran is Filled with short stories/fables from OT &NT ., Hadith and Sira  are filled with stories/Fables of a character "Muhammad"  and his family, friends, relatives, pets and places ..

    Now question is,

    can we get any reliable information on real past history on the origins of these religions and the characters in them from Oral or Anal  Stories??

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Hadith and Sira historical picture or weak fables?
     Reply #17 - February 23, 2015, 09:23 AM

    Is there a distinction, as in xianity between orthodoxy - what you must believe - and orthopraxy - what you must do?

    I get the impression Islam is actually a series of rituals upon which words have been imposed.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Hadith and Sira historical picture or weak fables?
     Reply #18 - February 23, 2015, 09:26 AM

    Isn't the shahada a classic magical invocation?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Hadith and Sira historical picture or weak fables?
     Reply #19 - February 23, 2015, 09:28 AM

    I see some Prophetic  words from moi ., let me  modify a bit

    Islam is a series of rituals upon which some stories have been imposed/told along with those  rituals............  moi


    That not only goes to Islam but to all religions...

    Do not let silence become your legacy  
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Hadith and Sira historical picture or weak fables?
     Reply #20 - February 23, 2015, 09:36 AM

    OK, what do the rituals in Islam do?  In xianity one eats the body and blood of christ to become the god and get eternal life.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Hadith and Sira historical picture or weak fables?
     Reply #21 - February 23, 2015, 09:38 AM

    You don't do it to become god.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Hadith and Sira historical picture or weak fables?
     Reply #22 - February 23, 2015, 09:39 AM

    Village church bells in Britain keep demons away!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Hadith and Sira historical picture or weak fables?
     Reply #23 - February 23, 2015, 09:40 AM

    You don't do it to become god.


    Are you sure?  What is all the bride of christ stuff about?  What does emmanuel mean?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Hadith and Sira historical picture or weak fables?
     Reply #24 - February 23, 2015, 09:43 AM

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_(liturgy)

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Hadith and Sira historical picture or weak fables?
     Reply #25 - February 23, 2015, 11:02 AM

    Quote
    The priest then presents the transubstantiated elements to the congregation, saying: "Behold the Lamb of God, behold him who takes away the sins of the world. Blessed are those called to the supper of the Lamb." Then all repeat: "Lord, I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed." The priest then receives Communion and, with the help, if necessary, of extraordinary ministers, distributes Communion to the people, who usually approach in procession.[25] Silence is called for following the Communion procession. A Prayer After Communion is then proclaimed by the priest while all stand.


    People who are eating a god are becoming a god - you are what you eat!  This is magick101!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Hadith and Sira historical picture or weak fables?
     Reply #26 - February 23, 2015, 06:14 PM

    What would you say is the argument for considering the Quran a somewhat more reliable historical source?

    Or would you regard it as equally unreliable ?


    It depends what you mean by historical source.  Both are nearly useless if read to correctly relay contemporary historical narratives about historical facts.  The Qur'an takes pains to avoid even trying to do this, instead preferring to operate as a sort of anonymous text that is almost devoid of contemporary narrative context.  The few exceptions are probably the latest and crudest interpolations, such as 33:40, where we finally get what seem to be a couple proper names (MHMD, Zayd) in the context of contemporary narrative proclamations ... also the solitary Qur'anic mention of Makkah.

    But both are critically important historical sources that bear on the specific societies and beliefs at the times and places where they were composed.  The Qur'an is not more historically reliable, in that sense, but it was composed much earlier than the hadith, and thus is a much better resource for deciphering the very early history of what became Islam.

    A question that has been occupying me lately is this:  Did the Qur'anic Kuffar Exist?  At first glance, it seems to be a ridiculous question.  The Qur'an is always railing against the unbelievers, hence the unbelievers existed and were seen as a specific group of people distinct from the believers.  Patricia Crone has written a long article on who the "mushrikun" likely were, and takes this to be a historical question about a specific historical group of people; she thinks they are monotheists of some sort.

    https://www.hs.ias.edu/files/Crone_Articles/Crone_Quranic_Deities.pdf

    But that is only true if we accept the picture of the Qur'an as a contemporary text delivered by Mohammed to his faithful.  If we think of the Qur'an instead as a theological composite that was largely assembled *in response* to Mohammed's death, in the decades thereafter, then the people called 'unbelievers' and 'associators' are essentially theological constructs who are invoked to make a dogmatic point and help articulate a new religious community.

    It has been convincingly argued (by Hawting etc.) that the Qur'anic 'polytheists' were probably monotheists, and that the later Muslim arguments about jahiliyya were ahistorical fantasies.  But the more I think about it, the more I suspect it is an error to read the Qur'anic diatribes against polytheists/unbelievers as a historical description of historical conflicts that were actually happening at the time of textual composition.  Rather I think the pre-existing language of monotheists struggling with kuffar was *anachronistically* adopted over time to help articulate a new religion, increasingly distinct amongst the monotheists.  In this sense, there never were any kuffar, any more than there were 'sinners.'  The Qur'an is not talking about actual people.  You basically have early believers who are articulating what they believe, and trying to distinguish it from those who do not believe it.  Not a conflict between well-defined actual groups of historical people!  A theological conflict, vaguely imposed on (intentionally) vague underlying circumstances, anachronistically borrowing the language of more archaic conflicts between monotheist and pagan.
  • Hadith and Sira historical picture or weak fables?
     Reply #27 - February 23, 2015, 06:40 PM

    The Qur'an is not more historically reliable, in that sense, but it was composed much earlier than the hadith, and thus is a much better resource for deciphering the very early history of what became Islam.


    Thanks.

    Do you think there was a real historical Muhammad who uttered at least some of the Qur'an?
  • Hadith and Sira historical picture or weak fables?
     Reply #28 - February 23, 2015, 07:12 PM

    I read Fred Donner's Muhammad and the Believers and to reconstruct the life of Muhammad and the early believers he used almost exclusively the Quran, early non-Muslim sources, and archaeology. The later Islamic traditions were regarded as spurious, although he held to very general and basic aspects of the sira and hadith such as Muhammad's flight from Mecca to Medina. It seems this approach is characteristic of any serious attempt at historical reconstruction.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Hadith and Sira historical picture or weak fables?
     Reply #29 - February 23, 2015, 07:54 PM

    I wonder if historians continually miss a huge very significant chunk of evidence in attempting to work out timelines?

    The rituals.

    It is as if they are thought of somehow not relevant to the stories and the theologies.

    But why?

    Rituals create myth and history.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »