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 Topic: Sam Harris

 (Read 23754 times)
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  • Sam Harris
     Reply #60 - January 06, 2016, 09:00 AM

    This conversation sums up why I love this forum.

    Thanks y'all.
  • Sam Harris
     Reply #61 - January 06, 2016, 02:49 PM

    Yeeze posted this discussion somewhere. Sam Harris and Cenk Uygur. It's 3 hours long but it worths.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVl3BJoEoAU

    Well I agree mostly with Sam Harris, but not on the nuclear case. No way to nuke a country based on solid evidence, that they will bomb you. Maybe you can make a case with Israel, but Israeli themselves have used other ways just to avoid this.

    On the other way Cenk Uygur was trying so hard to absolve Islam of almost everything. Practically he is saying that because of Israel and the West muslims are feeling humiliated. Also saying that a Sunni is blowing up at a Shia wedding in Pakistan because of Israel. Ridiculous.
  • Sam Harris
     Reply #62 - January 06, 2016, 04:41 PM

    Countries build bunkers under mountains to keep their most destructive weapons, so that even direct hits wouldn't do much. They also have submarines.Not sure why no one hasn't pointed out this before when talking about Sam Harris scenario.
  • Sam Harris
     Reply #63 - January 06, 2016, 04:55 PM

    I finally read through the whole Harris-Chomsky discussion:

    http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-limits-of-discourse

    It was a total headache. Harris was trying to engineer a discussion about what is important when attempting to establish moral culpability and Chomsky was doing everything he could do to attempt to make Harris out to be a complete apologist for the West's mistakes in foreign policy. There was no goodwill at all on Chomsky's part. He clearly knew the facts better about the bombing case they discussed at length, but instead of calmly showing Harris where he had the facts wrong and that Clinton understood there would be massive casualties as a result of his action, he invested most his time into unproductive personal spite directed at Harris.

    They were clearly speaking past each other. Harris was hoping to have a philosophical discussion about the relevant components in analyzing a moral action, and Noam seemed to be only concerned with whether or not one sided with the West or against it regarding its foreign policy blunders.

    Harris is happy to criticize the West. He admits there have been massive moral failures (slavery, internment camps, support for dictators). The thing is we have learned from this and luckily as a culture, due to our education and decreasing isolation from the rest of the world, the average citizen in the west has a more finely tuned moral compass than ever before. If you took data on people living in the UK and in Pakistan on basic ethical issues regarding things like suicide bombing, freedom of expression, human rights, you would find that the average Brit comes out looking better than than the average Pakistani. This has nothing to do with race, but more to do with culture and education. At the moment, the sub-culture in parts of the Middle East that thinks that suicide bombings against civilians are justified and women should are second class citizens is morally inferior to secular humanist culture in the west.

    To say that terrorists killing thousands of innocent civilians on 9/11 is the moral equivalence of accidentally hitting a pharmaceutical plant in Sudan that unintentionally has a ripple effect that kills thousands of people is disingenuous. Certainly it was a massive mistake by the US and a tragedy with plenty of blame to go around. But there is a certain strand of liberalism that is so narcissistic that it has to make the West out to be the bad guys behind everything. And for many of these liberals, Chomsky is their hero.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Sam Harris
     Reply #64 - January 06, 2016, 06:31 PM

    justperusing
    Quote
    the moment, the sub-culture in parts of the Middle East that thinks that suicide bombings against civilians are justified

    Not sure that the view of westerners and muslims on the specific topic of targeting civilians is that difference, except that when westerners read ''suicide attacks'' it leads to thoughts of the targeting of civilians, which may not be the case for the Islamic world.
    On other issues,such as views on human rights, there are large differences, though surveys and polls can be misleading even there.
  • Sam Harris
     Reply #65 - January 06, 2016, 06:49 PM

    "The subculture in parts of the Middle East" does not equal Muslims in general as far as I'm concerned.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Sam Harris
     Reply #66 - January 06, 2016, 06:55 PM

    I finally read through the whole Harris-Chomsky discussion:

    http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-limits-of-discourse

    It was a total headache. Harris was trying to engineer a discussion about what is important when attempting to establish moral culpability and Chomsky was doing everything he could do to attempt to make Harris out to be a complete apologist for the West's mistakes in foreign policy. There was no goodwill at all on Chomsky's part. He clearly knew the facts better about the bombing case they discussed at length, but instead of calmly showing Harris where he had the facts wrong and that Clinton understood there would be massive casualties as a result of his action, he invested most his time into unproductive personal spite directed at Harris.

    They were clearly speaking past each other. Harris was hoping to have a philosophical discussion about the relevant components in analyzing a moral action, and Noam seemed to be only concerned with whether or not one sided with the West or against it regarding its foreign policy blunders.

    Harris is happy to criticize the West. He admits there have been massive moral failures (slavery, internment camps, support for dictators). The thing is we have learned from this and luckily as a culture, due to our education and decreasing isolation from the rest of the world, the average citizen in the west has a more finely tuned moral compass than ever before. If you took data on people living in the UK and in Pakistan on basic ethical issues regarding things like suicide bombing, freedom of expression, human rights, you would find that the average Brit comes out looking better than than the average Pakistani. This has nothing to do with race, but more to do with culture and education. At the moment, the sub-culture in parts of the Middle East that thinks that suicide bombings against civilians are justified and women should are second class citizens is morally inferior to secular humanist culture in the west.

    To say that terrorists killing thousands of innocent civilians on 9/11 is the moral equivalence of accidentally hitting a pharmaceutical plant in Sudan that unintentionally has a ripple effect that kills thousands of people is disingenuous. Certainly it was a massive mistake by the US and a tragedy with plenty of blame to go around. But there is a certain strand of liberalism that is so narcissistic that it has to make the West out to be the bad guys behind everything. And for many of these liberals, Chomsky is their hero.


    This bolded part is the kind of statements that Neocons make when defending Western foreign intervention or make excuses for them in the name of "secular humanism".You may not be his fan or his dick rider but you do share views with him which i dont agree and approve. I should have seen that coming and not waste my time arguing with you in the first place

    Folks always trying to excuse West or downplay their imperialism in Middle East. Its getting tiring.

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Sam Harris
     Reply #67 - January 06, 2016, 07:04 PM

    Ah so you're gonna shut down the discussion due to me holding a particular different view from yours and immediately declaring any discussion to be a waste of time because you judge me to be beyond reason without even knowing me.

    How Chomsky-esque of you.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Sam Harris
     Reply #68 - January 06, 2016, 07:14 PM

    Ah so you're gonna shut down the discussion due to me holding a particular different view from yours and immediately declaring any discussion to be a waste of time because you judge me to be beyond reason without even knowing me.

    How Chomsky-esque of you.


    Here we go  Roll Eyes

    I may not know you personally but i dont like your political views and experience have taught me that arguing with lots like you is a waste of time.So you can go ahead and declare yourself a winner and be smirk about it. Its just a forum thread.

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Sam Harris
     Reply #69 - January 06, 2016, 07:16 PM

    FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!FIGHT! FIGHT!




    Tongue
  • Re: Sam Harris
     Reply #70 - January 06, 2016, 07:21 PM

    "The subculture in parts of the Middle East" does not equal Muslims in general as far as I'm concerned.

    It may very apply to Pakistan on the specific topic of targeting civilians(which you mention), but not to the same degree on issues with human rights.
  • Sam Harris
     Reply #71 - January 06, 2016, 07:27 PM

    Here we go  Roll Eyes

    I may not know you personally but i dont like your political views and experience have taught me that arguing with lots like you is a waste of time.So you can go ahead and declare yourself a winner and be smirk about it. Its just a forum thread.


    Alright dude. I guess I'm just too far beneath you to have a decent discussion.

    Don't mind me guys. I'm just a waste of time  whistling2

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Sam Harris
     Reply #72 - January 06, 2016, 07:30 PM

    Alright dude. I guess I'm just too far beneath you to have a decent discussion.

    Don't mind me guys. I'm just a waste of time  whistling2


    Damn right,son . Betta recognize  cool2

    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Sam Harris
     Reply #73 - January 06, 2016, 07:44 PM

     popcorn

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Sam Harris
     Reply #74 - January 06, 2016, 08:45 PM

    You're welcome, David.
  • Sam Harris
     Reply #75 - January 07, 2016, 07:31 AM

    Honey, I jinxed the thread.
  • Sam Harris
     Reply #76 - January 07, 2016, 10:22 AM

    Honey, I jinxed the thread.

    no way  David ...  YOU WILL NOT WIN...I will fight along with that "honey" to fight you. You will not be allowed to win over this Goliath

    Noam Chomsky (2013) "What is Anarchism?"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yccBBzSHFAM

    Noam Chomsky: The Kind of Anarchism I Believe in, and What's Wrong with Libertarians

    "Who does control the world?" - Noam Chomsky - BBC interview 2003
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqznqIpkZz0

    Noam Chomsky explaining the reason for Islamic terrorism!!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oS0L8mQFRAk

    But it is true Noam although an atheist himself he comes very short in criticizing religions and how they brain wash people   and stagnate the progress  unlike his hard hitting articles/interviews against imperialism.  And..... and Sam Harris must realize Noam Chomsky has long track record  Oops .......... I mean loooong dick and lot of people ride on it...........  On top of that Noam is true to his words throughout his life. But that is not true w.r.t  Sam.,  It is a mistake on part of Sam Harris  to write that pdf file  

    but Sam Harris is right on one thing when he  says " Human belief.....unquestionable belief.... on some stupid  blind beliefs of cave ages will have consequences in these modern times"

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Sam Harris
     Reply #77 - January 07, 2016, 10:55 AM

    Quote
    Alright dude. I guess I'm just too far beneath you to have a decent discussion.

    Don't mind me guys. I'm just a waste of time  whistling2

    Damn right,son . Betta recognize  cool2


    Is that just for that word "Dude"?? Then there is nothing to recognize in you cato.. such responses will make you to look like a flying duck fucking around trying to catch a bullet .........

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Sam Harris
     Reply #78 - January 07, 2016, 11:09 AM

    Noam Chomsky (2014) "How to Ruin an Economy; Some Simple Ways"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mhj-j0z-fk

    that is a great lecture..........

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Sam Harris
     Reply #79 - January 23, 2016, 06:01 PM

    Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris in Conversation on Religion, Atheism and Morality

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VafeJ_4Ywso

    that is a good discussion to watch...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Sam Harris
     Reply #80 - February 12, 2016, 09:39 PM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrA-8rTxXf0

    that has good Q & A  session ...  never watcher it...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Sam Harris
     Reply #81 - March 16, 2016, 08:19 PM

    Sam Harris slurs Malala: Famed atheist wrongly co-opts teenager’s views

    Hmm That link has great heading  and it should be here. This  was written by my good friend MURTAZA HUSSAIN who often pens at salon.com writes that article with this picture




    but..but I never read Sam Harris sluring or insulting that girl  Malala Yousafzai of Pakistan   Huh? Huh?

    Oh well., that is the way life is on internet


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Sam Harris
     Reply #82 - July 05, 2017, 05:24 PM

    Here's Kenan Malik's review of Sam Harris's "The Moral Landscape." It's a lengthy read but it's entirely worth it. Btw, can anyone who's read the Moral Landscape chime in on what they think of Kenan's review.



    “If God does not exist, everything is permitted.” Dostoevsky never actually wrote that line, though so often is it attributed to him that he may as well have. It has become the almost reflexive response of believers when faced with an argument for a godless world. Without religious faith, runs the argument, we cannot anchor our moral truths or truly know right from wrong. Without belief in God we will be lost in a miasma of moral nihilism.In recent years, the riposte of many to this challenge has been to argue that moral codes are not revealed by God but instantiated in nature, and in particular in the brain. Ethics is not a theological matter but a scientific one. Science is not simply a means of making sense of facts about the world, but also about values, because values are in essence facts in another form.

    Few people have expressed this argument more forcefully than the neuroscientist Sam Harris. Over the past few years, through books such as The End of Faith and Letter to a Christian Nation, Harris has gained a considerable reputation as a no-holds-barred critic of religion, in particular of Islam, and as an acerbic champion of science. In his new book, The Moral Landscape: How Science Can Determine Human Values, he sets out to demolish the traditional philosophical distinction between is and ought, between the way the world is and the way that it should be, a distinction we most associate with David Hume.

    What Hume failed to understand, Harris argues, is that science can bridge the gap between ought and is, by turning moral claims into empirical facts. Values, he argues, are facts about the “states of the world” and “states of the human brain”. We need to think of morality, therefore, as “an undeveloped branch of science”: “Questions about values are really questions about the wellbeing of conscious creatures. Values, therefore, translate into facts that can be scientifically understood: regarding positive and negative social emotions, the effects of specific laws on human relationships, the neurophysiology of happiness and suffering, etc.”Science, and neuroscience in particular, does not simply explain why we might respond in particular ways to equality or to torture but also whether equality is a good, and torture morally acceptable. Where there are disagreements over moral questions, Harris believes, science will decide which view is right “because the discrepant answers people give to them translate into differences in our brains, in the brains of others and in the world at large.”

    Harris is nothing if not self-confident. There is a voluminous philosophical literature that stretches back almost to the origins of the discipline on the relationship between facts and values. Harris chooses to ignore most of it. He does not wish to engage “more directly with the academic literature on moral philosophy”, he explains in a footnote, because he did not develop his arguments “by reading the work of moral philosophers” and because he is “convinced that every appearance of terms like ‘metaethics’, ‘deontology’, ‘noncognitivism’, ‘antirealism’, ‘emotivism’, etc directly increases the amount of boredom in the universe.”

    Imagine a sociologist who wrote about evolutionary theory without discussing the work of Darwin, Fisher, Mayr, Hamilton, Trivers or Dawkins on the grounds that he did not come to his conclusions by reading about biology and because discussing concepts such as “adaptation”, “speciation”, “homology”, “phylogenetics” or “kin selection” would “increase the amount of boredom in the universe”. How seriously would we, and should we, take his argument? It is one thing to want to “start a conversation that a wider audience can engage with and can find helpful”, something that many of us, including many of those boring moral philosophers, seek to do. It is quite another to imagine that you can engage in any kind of conversation, with any kind of audience, by wilfully ignoring the relevant scholarship because it is “boring”.

    How does Harris establish that values are facts? There are, he says, certain kinds of lives that most would agree are bad, and certain kinds of lives that most would agree are good. Imagine a young widow whose seven-year-old daughter was “raped and dismembered” in front of her by her own 14-year-old son “goaded to this evil at the point of a machete by a press gang of drug-addled soldiers”. It was an act “not entirely out of character with the other days of [a] life” that from the moment of birth has been “a theatre of cruelty and violence”. Most people would accept that this woman was living what Harris calls “a Bad Life”. Now imagine a woman who is “married to the most loving, intelligent and charismatic person”, who has a career that is “intellectually stimulating and financially rewarding”, who is able to devote herself “to activities that bring [her] immense personal satisfaction” and who has “just won a billion-dollar grant to benefit children in the developing world”. Not many people, I would imagine, would disagree with Harris that this woman is living “a Good Life”. “Once we agree that the extremes of absolute misery and absolute flourishing – whatever those states amount to for each particular being in the end – are different and dependant upon facts about the universe,” Harris argues, “then we have admitted that there are right and wrong answers to the question of morality.” Good circumstances give rise to good lives, bad circumstances to bad lives. It is objectively good to value a good life and objectively bad to value a bad life.

    Therefore there are objectively good values and objectively bad values and values are facts about the world.   It is a kind of argument that suggests that Harris might have done well to spend a bit more time immersed in all the boring stuff. To accept that murder and rape are bad is to accept that one is not a psychopath. But being able to distinguish between psychopaths and non-psychopaths is not the same as establishing the ontological status of non-psychopathic values. Or, to put it another way, even most moral relativists abhor murder and rape and few carry a torch for either Hitler or the Taliban. The insistence that because it seems obvious that rape and murder are bad, and that wealth and security are good, so there must be objective values seems about as plausible as the argument that because there are gaps in the fossil record, so God must have created Adam and Eve.

    Having established the objectivity of values, Harris then insists that morality “really relates to the intentions and behaviours that affect the wellbeing of conscious creatures” and so can “translate into facts that can be scientifically understood”. But why should morality self-evidently relate solely to the “wellbeing of conscious creatures”? Why not, as some insist, to the wellbeing of the planet? Or of ecosystems? Or, as others argue, to the wellbeing of humans, as autonomous moral agents, rather than to that of all conscious creatures? I can think of rational arguments that can help distinguish between these claims. But I can think of no empirical test that can do so. Nor does Harris suggest any. And if there is no such test, it is difficult to know how it is a fact that can be scientifically understood.Let us grant that morality does relate solely to the wellbeing of conscious creatures. What scientific test can be used to define wellbeing? Harris accepts that wellbeing is a fuzzy concept. But so, he points out, are many scientific categories. We cannot define with absolute accuracy what it means to be healthy but most people would know the objective difference between a healthy person and an unhealthy one.

    This, however, is to misunderstand the problem. The issue is not so much that wellbeing is a fuzzy category as that it can, in specific cases, be well-defined but in a number of different ways that are often conflicting in a manner that science cannot resolve. Perhaps the best way to understand this is to explore Harris’ own moral values, particularly in relation to Islam. “There is,” Harris observes, “absolutely no reason to think that demonising homosexuals, stoning adulterers, veiling women, soliciting the murder of artists and intellectuals and celebrating the exploits of suicide bombers will move humanity towards a peak on the moral landscape.” I agree. But why does Harris seem to believe that demonising Muslims will help move humanity to a peak on the moral landscape? What is moral about insisting, as Harris does in his book The End of Faith, that a “good Muslim” (“good” in the sense of being religiously faithful) who possesses “military and economic power” poses “an unconscionable threat to the civil society of others”?

    Or in claiming, as he did in a Los Angeles Times column, that “the people who speak most sensibly about the threat that Islam poses to Europe are actually fascists”? I agree with Harris that “killing cartoonists for blasphemy does not lead anywhere worth going on the landscape”. But I cannot see how suggesting, as Harris does in The End of Faith, that “some propositions are so dangerous that it may even be ethical to kill people for believing them” does so either. Nor claiming, as Harris did in the Huffington Post, that “torture may be an ethical necessity in our war on terror”.Harris has what he considers to be rational defences against such criticisms. Since we are happy to accept “collateral damage” in the war on terror, actions in which innocent noncombatants may be maimed or killed, why, he asks, should we cavil at torturing suspected terrorists? And what, he wonders, is wrong with killing an individual whose beliefs could inspire others to commit great violence? It would, he suggests, be an act of “self-defence”.

    I disagree with Harris’s rationalisations, not because I am a “self-hating moral relativist”, as Harris insists on dubbing most of his critics, but because I have a fundamentally different view of what constitutes the good. The difference between torture and collateral damage, for instance, is the difference between deliberately treating a human being as a piece of meat and unintentionally killing some people. For a consequentialist like Harris the distinction between means and ends revealed in that difference may not be important. For those not entirely trapped within a consequentialist view of morality, it is. Consequences clearly matter. But there is more to morality than poring over a spreadsheet of outcomes.All moral codes have, of course, a certain in-built flexibility. Most people would accept that murder is a moral wrong. But if a woman in a violent and abusive relationship murders her husband, most would understand her actions, perhaps even accept them as having been necessary, while still deeming murder, and maybe even her specific response, to be morally unacceptable. This can be as true of torture as of murder.

    Even though I reject the comparison between torture and collateral damage, and even though I regard torture as treating a human being as a piece of meat, I also accept that there may be circumstances – the famous “ticking bomb” scenario, for instance – in which I would understand why an individual had been treated as a piece of meat. This does not make torture ethically right, or collapse the moral chasm between torture and collateral damage. Rather it reveals the distinction between ethical norms and pragmatic needs. Those who murder and torture should always have to answer, morally and legally, for their actions. How we judge those actions depends, however, upon the context – the particular circumstances, the intentions of the perpetrator, and so on. Such judgment is as much a matter of wisdom – admittedly, an unfashionable word these days – as of science.

    If Sam Harris and I were to debate these issues, each of us would insist that he was right and the other wrong. Both would draw upon facts about the world, root those facts within our particular political and moral framework, and use reason to bind the argument together. Neither would accept that our moral stance was valid only for a specific culture but would maintain its universal validity. It would not, however, be a “scientific” debate. The difference between a consequentialist and a non-consequentialist view of torture, for instance, cannot be resolved empirically. It rests upon whether or not one accepts that counting consequences is a useful way of thinking about torture. A debate between Harris and me would be very different to either of us debating, say, a defender of intelligent design or someone who rejects anthropogenic climate change.  

    What would be the effect of Harris insisting that that his view was scientific and mine not so? It would not make his argument scientific. It may, however, give his argument the authority of science, which is something very different.And therein lies the danger. Science has great authority in the modern world, and rightly so. But if it is important to defend the authority of science in matters of fact, it is equally important to reject attempts to make use of such authority in arenas in which more is at play than simply facts. There is, of course, a long history of the use of science as a mask for prejudice.

    There is a deeper problem, too, in Harris’s argument. His is an aristocratic view of morality. Moral norms seem not to emerge through a process of social engagement and collective conversation, nor in the course of self-improvement, but rather are laws to be revealed from on high and imposed upon those below. Science will tell us which conception of the good life is objectively true, and ensure that we all keep to the moral straight and narrow. Harris looks forward, for instance, to the day that governments and corporations will be able to use brain scanning technology to detect whether people are lying, thereby creating “zones of obligatory candour” and enabling an entirely truthful public life. “Thereafter, civilised men and women might share a common presumption,” he writes, “that whenever important conversations are held, the truthfulness of all participants will be monitored.” This would no more be a deprivation of freedom than currently it is to be denied “the right to remove our pants in the supermarket”.

    It is an argument that reveals once again the difficulties of the claim that science can umpire moral disagreements. The question of whether the creation of “zones of obligatory candour” would be a rational enterprise or a totalitarian nightmare, of whether enforced truthfulness is a moral good or a denial of individual autonomy, cannot be determined scientifically but expresses, rather, a philosophical and political distinction. Harris dismisses the criticism that using compulsory brain scans in the courtroom would be an infringement of the US Fifth Amendment, which protects an individual against self-incrimination. “Prohibition against compelled testimony,” he writes, “appears to be a relic of a more superstitious age” in which it was “believed that lying under oath would damn a person’s soul for eternity.” This is an odd view of moral and political history. Protection against compelled testimony is, in fact, an Enlightenment concept, a product of the liberal defence of individual autonomy against the power of the state. Harris’s insistence on enforced truthfulness is, on the other hand, far closer to the premodern and religious belief that authority should take precedence over individual freedom.

    The desire to root morality in science derives from a laudable aspiration to demonstrate the redundancy of religion to ethical thinking. The irony is that the classic argument against looking to God as the source of moral values – Plato’s Euthyphro dilemma – is equally applicable to the claim that science is, or should be, the arbiter of good and evil. In his dialogue Euthyphro, Plato has Socrates ask the famous question: do the gods love the good because it is good, or is it good because it is loved by the gods? If the good is good simply because the gods choose it, then the notion of the good becomes arbitrary. If on the other hand, the gods choose the good because it is good, then the good is independent of the gods.
     
    The same dilemma faces contemporary defenders of the claim that science determines moral values. Harris argues that wellbeing can be defined through data gained from fMRI scans, physiological observation, pharmacological measures, etc. Such studies may be able to tell us which brain states, neurotransmitters or hormones calibrate with particular real-world conditions. But whether those states, neurotransmitters or hormones are seen as indicators of wellbeing depends on whether we consider those real-life conditions as expressions of wellbeing. If wellbeing is defined simply by the existence of certain neural states, or by the presence of particular hormones or neurotransmitters, or because of certain evolutionary dispositions, then the notion of wellbeing is arbitrary. If such a definition is not to be arbitrary, then it can only be because the neural state, or the hormonal or neurotransmitter level, or the evolutionary disposition, correlates with a notion of wellbeing or of the good, which has been arrived at independently.

    Science (or rather scientists) may be able to develop machines that can predict whether an individual is lying or not. But it cannot tell us whether it is a good that all our thoughts be monitored. That is a moral, not a scientific, judgment.The desire to look either to God or to science to define moral values is a desire to set moral values in ethical concrete. It is a yearning for moral certainty, a fear that without external authority, humans will fall into the morass of moral relativism. But just as we do not need the false certainty of a divinely sanctified moral code, neither do we need the false certainty of a morality rooted in science.
     
    There is an important truth to Harris’s argument that facts and values are not as distinct as many now suggest. Unless we wish to believe that values are simply plucked out of the sky, then we must accept that there is some relationship between the kinds of values that we hold, the kinds of beings that we are, and the kind of world in which we live. But while values can never be entirely wrenched apart from facts, neither can they be collapsed into facts. Humans are the bridge between facts and values. The significance of the Euthyphro dilemma is that it embodies a deeper claim: that concepts such as goodness, happiness and wellbeing only have meaning in a world in which conscious, rational, moral agents exist that themselves are capable of defining moral right and wrong and acting upon it.It is the existence of humans as autonomous moral agents that allows us to act as the bridge between facts and values.

    Or, to put it another way, it is the fact of our existence as moral beings that ensures both that facts and values are linked but also that they are distinct. Creating a distinction between facts and values is neither to denigrate science nor to downgrade the importance of empirical evidence. It is, rather, to take both science and evidence seriously. It is precisely out of the facts of the world, and those of human existence, that the distinction between is and ought arises, as does the necessity for humans to take responsibility for moral judgement.

    http://newhumanist.org.uk/2538/test-tube-truths


    This is a nice debate about the book.

    https://youtu.be/Lyp3tHpGxw4
  • Sam Harris
     Reply #83 - April 11, 2018, 03:05 PM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4z7mGN8Xuc

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCe26T92Wmw

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Sam Harris
     Reply #84 - August 31, 2020, 12:03 AM

    summary: he's still tone deaf.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000m96h
  • Sam Harris
     Reply #85 - August 31, 2020, 08:27 AM

    Quote
    summary: he's still tone deaf.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000m96h


    Seemed more like being trigger happy than rationality was the factor in Jacob Blake getting shot 7 times in the back. Couldn't the cowboy cops have apprehended him before he walked to his car, if there was such a risk that he might pull out a gun on them? I don't know but Sam 'the non regressive man' Harris has too much of a skewered understanding of rationality for my liking given that he's such a big proponent of it.
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