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 Topic: Another Infidel joins

 (Read 11049 times)
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  • Re: Another Infidel joins
     Reply #30 - July 27, 2009, 09:08 AM

    Is lame - Neither did you over the origin of life.

    Cheetah - So the other end of that theory is that we do not exist because scientifically we do not know how everything originated, only speculations.

    And yet here we are molecules that have some how randomly mashed up together with a lot of chemical reactions that somehow they are typing on keyboards.

    Those funny molecules.

  • Re: Another Infidel joins
     Reply #31 - July 27, 2009, 09:16 AM

    Quote
    Cheetah - So the other end of that theory is that we do not exist because scientifically we do not know how everything originated, only speculations.


    No, the other end of that argument is that telling someone that their existence is proof of a creator God is completely untenable and illogical.

    Quote
    And yet here we are molecules that have some how randomly mashed up together with a lot of chemical reactions that somehow they are typing on keyboards.

    Those funny molecules.



    There's nothing random about evolution, the only people who ever try to claim that the choice is between a creator God and random chance are creationists, because they don't know what they are talking about.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Another Infidel joins
     Reply #32 - July 27, 2009, 09:21 AM

    Is lame - Neither did you over the origin of life.

    Yes, but I did not initially mock you about being ignorant of the unknown. That was a trick you were trying to pull.  

    Thats the beauty of the scientific method, we dont say we know something when we are not sure.  Believers somehow believe they are sure, but in reality they have even less factual evidence to go off.

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  • Re: Another Infidel joins
     Reply #33 - July 27, 2009, 09:23 AM

    Is lame - Neither did you over the origin of life.

    Cheetah - So the other end of that theory is that we do not exist because scientifically we do not know how everything originated, only speculations.

    And yet here we are molecules that have some how randomly mashed up together with a lot of chemical reactions that somehow they are typing on keyboards.

    Those funny molecules.



    So you dont believe in evolution?  Did God just plant all the different varieties of animals & trees each time he fancied a change of scene?

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  • Re: Another Infidel joins
     Reply #34 - July 27, 2009, 09:31 AM

    Sorry Islame for my mockery perhaps I should control myself.

    anyway,

    If so called evolution did exist then it was a tool in god's creation.

    I do not believe we are the descendants of apes, perhaps our ancestors looked different back then and today we look the way we are because of genetic material variability.

    From religion there is evidence that man was larger in size back then and lived longer (adam was believed to be 20 meters tall and Noah lived for around 1000 years).

    From a genetic perspective I once read research that over the years our tolemeres on chromosomes got shorter which may have resulted in the loss of some genetic material. That could mean we started with a larger pool of organisms with a high variability of traits that have diminished over the years, both in specied and traits within species themselves.

    No I do not think that a random genetic mutation can contribute to the genome, the math doesn't fit.
  • Re: Another Infidel joins
     Reply #35 - July 27, 2009, 09:36 AM

    adam was believed to be 20 meters tall and Noah lived for around 1000 years

    and you believe this too because a book older than a thousand years, happened to tell you so?

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  • Re: Another Infidel joins
     Reply #36 - July 27, 2009, 09:37 AM

    Quote
    From religion there is evidence that man was larger in size back then and lived longer (adam was believed to be 20 meters tall and Noah lived for around 1000 years).

     Cheesy Ahem. That is not evidence. That is only mythology.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Another Infidel joins
     Reply #37 - July 27, 2009, 09:45 AM

    No I do not think that a random genetic mutation can contribute to the genome, the math doesn't fit.

    Have you done the maths?  Have you spent a few minutes thinking about the time involved as well as the number of different permutations & combinations that could have been carried out? 

    Trust me - its far, far easier to believe that Adam being 20 metres tall & Noah living to a 1000 years old!

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  • Re: Another Infidel joins
     Reply #38 - July 27, 2009, 09:52 AM

    I meant evidence from within Scriptures that some of you by your choice disregard (which is your choice)

    Regarding the math of genetic mutations, there are 3 types of genetic mutations a deletion, an addition and alteration to a nitrogen base. An addition and a deletion would have a devastating effect on the genome and would cause severe mutation. An alteration may have insignificant or very unnoticeable effect.

    Look at how long is the genetic code, do the math. (Including the possibility of the 2 other mutations will destroy the mutated to have offspring as such mutations do render the mutated sterile in most cases. A random effect ? Or a well designed system?)
  • Re: Another Infidel joins
     Reply #39 - July 27, 2009, 10:08 AM

    You're wrong. For a start there is at least one other type of mutation and it is quite well known: frame shift.  dance
    Also, your assertion that the addition or deletion of a base would have a devastating effect is just that. An assertion. The effect will not invariably be devastating. Another type of mutation is substitution, where one base is replaced by another. Sometimes this will be completely unnoticeable because, get this, some bases are interchangeable in certain contexts. You can swap them without it making a damned bit of difference.  parrot

    If you want to preach about genetics you should brush up on the topic. As for scriptures, a man twenty metres tall is not going to happen. The square/cube law makes it impossible. A man that size would not be able to walk and would have severe difficulty breathing.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Another Infidel joins
     Reply #40 - July 27, 2009, 11:16 AM

    Osmanthus :

    from wiki:

    A frameshift mutation is a mutation caused by insertion or deletion

  • Re: Another Infidel joins
     Reply #41 - July 27, 2009, 11:41 AM

    Yes but an insertion or deletion does not always result in a frame shift. Also, they do not always have a devastating effect. Sometimes they can have a beneficial effect.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Another Infidel joins
     Reply #42 - July 27, 2009, 11:43 AM

    Also from wiki, there are six types of genetic mutation...

    A frameshift mutation is a mutation caused by insertion or deletion of a number of nucleotides that is not evenly divisible by three from a DNA sequence. Due to the triplet nature of gene expression by codons, the insertion or deletion can disrupt the reading frame, or the grouping of the codons, resulting in a completely different translation from the original. The earlier in the sequence the deletion or insertion occurs, the more altered the protein produced is.
     
    Missense mutations or nonsynonymous mutations are types of point mutations where a single nucleotide is changed to cause substitution of a different amino acid. This in turn can render the resulting protein nonfunctional. Such mutations are responsible for diseases such as Epidermolysis bullosa, sickle-cell disease, and SOD1 mediated ALS (Boill?e 2006, p. 39).

    A neutral mutation is a mutation that occurs in an amino acid codon which results in the use of a different, but chemically similar, amino acid. This is similar to a silent mutation, where a codon mutation may encode the same amino acid (see Wobble Hypothesis); for example, a change from AUU to AUC will still encode leucine, so no discernible change occurs (a silent mutation).

    A nonsense mutation is a point mutation in a sequence of DNA that results in a premature stop codon, or a nonsense codon in the transcribed mRNA, and possibly a truncated, and often nonfunctional protein product.

    Silent mutations are mutations that do not result in a change to the amino acid sequence of a protein. They may occur in a region that does not code for a protein, or they may occur within a codon in a manner that does not alter the final amino acid sequence. The phrase silent mutation is often used interchangeably with the phrase synonymous mutation; however, synonymous mutations are a subcategory of the former, occurring only within exons. The name silent could be a misnomer. For example, a silent mutation in the exon/intron border may lead to alternative splicing by changing the splice site (see Splice site mutation), thereby leading to a changed protein.

    [edit] Special classes
    Conditional mutation is a mutation that has wild-type (or less severe) phenotype under certain "permissive" environmental conditions and a mutant phenotype under certain "restrictive" conditions. For example, a temperature-sensitive mutation can cause cell death at high temperature (restrictive condition), but might have no deleterious consequences at a lower temperature (permissive condition).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation

    And  none of this supports your argument from design, which remains a mere assertion unsupported by evidence.



    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Another Infidel joins
     Reply #43 - July 27, 2009, 12:07 PM

    Osmanthus :

    Yes its a possibility, but it becomes less evident with more complex organisms (such as us). It can be seen as an advantage for viruses and bacteria where they instantly change there bio receptors and gain an advantage over detection with white blood cells and the rest are wiped out, but for other organisms this does not occur as often if not very rarely.

    If it did we should all expose ourselves to nuclear material and see what our offspring will be like, hey most of them would be deformed but damit we sure sped up the process?

    Cheetah:

    The genetic material is god's design.
  • Re: Another Infidel joins
     Reply #44 - July 27, 2009, 12:09 PM

    So what you are saying is that complex organisms evolve more slowly than bacteria. No problem. Any biologist will agree with that.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Another Infidel joins
     Reply #45 - July 27, 2009, 12:12 PM

    Quote
    The genetic material is god's design.


    That is a mere assertion unsupported by any evidence.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Another Infidel joins
     Reply #46 - July 27, 2009, 12:22 PM

    ...I do not believe we are the descendants of apes, perhaps our ancestors looked different back then and today we look the way we are.....


    ...From religion there is evidence that man was larger in size back then and lived longer (adam was believed to be 20 meters tall and Noah lived for around 1000 years)....



    Welcome to the forum Shadowq8.

    You are convinced that Good created Man in a different form millions of years ago then started to change his design as time passes? Was becasue of design errors he wanted to correct? Or there are other reasons perhaps?

    ...
  • Re: Another Infidel joins
     Reply #47 - July 27, 2009, 12:24 PM

    and thus we are back to the question of the origin of life the universe the everything and the basic philosophical question,

    Why are we here? Who made us ? Why can I think? Why do I feel pain? Why do I feel emotions? Why do we die? What were we before we existed? What will we become after we are gone?

    And the defiant questions:

    Why can't we stop death?

    Further expand on the previous question look up the second law of thermodynamics.

    Sit there and accept your deaths? Or is there a greater purpose? Enjoy whatever remains of your life ? And as you approach the end regret what time you have wasted?
  • Re: Another Infidel joins
     Reply #48 - July 27, 2009, 12:32 PM

    RIBS:
    In the end it is a question of chance. What are the chances of life originating from molecules ? One man stated the same chances that a tornado can assemble a boeing 727 by those same chances.
  • Re: Another Infidel joins
     Reply #49 - July 27, 2009, 12:34 PM

    So surely God is the ultimate Boeing 747! (Yes, I know I plagiarised Dawkins!)

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Another Infidel joins
     Reply #50 - July 27, 2009, 12:35 PM

    Quote
    and thus we are back to the question of the origin of life the universe the everything and the basic philosophical question,


    As I said to you at the start, this is simply a question we don't yet know the answer to.  We meaning all of us, religious people included.  The difference is that the religious are content to settle for God did it, and the non-religious are looking for the real answer.

    Quote
    Why are we here?


    The meaning of your life is a personal question for you to answer.

    Quote
    Who made us ?


    There is no reason to think that anybody made us.

    Quote
    Why can I think? Why do I feel pain? Why do I feel emotions?


    Because of the neurons in your brain.

    Quote
    Why do we die?


    Because we're organic matter, we only last so long.

    Quote
    What were we before we existed? What will we become after we are gone?


    Nothing and nothing.

    Quote
    And the defiant questions:

    Why can't we stop death?


    We have already gone a long way in improving peoples' life spans.  Not by praying though, Shadow, not by beseeching Allah or reciting the Qur'an.  By investing in time and effort to look for the real answers to all the don't knows in the natural world around us.

    Quote
    Further expand on the previous question look up the second law of thermodynamics.


    The second law of thermodynamics deals with entropy in a closed system, and is utterly irrelevant to everything else in your post, and indeed the entire thread.

    Quote
    Sit there and accept your deaths? Or is there a greater purpose? Enjoy whatever remains of your life ? And as you approach the end regret what time you have wasted?


    This life is the one and only life you've got so instead of wasting it praying to an imaginary friend I suggest you make the most of it.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Another Infidel joins
     Reply #51 - July 27, 2009, 12:37 PM

    RIBS:
    In the end it is a question of chance. What are the chances of life originating from molecules ? One man stated the same chances that a tornado can assemble a boeing 727 by those same chances.


    That was Fred Hoyle who knew no more about biology than my cat does, and he has been thoroughly debunked.  Besides, his 747 fallacy was only ever a reworking of the old watchmaker fallacy.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Another Infidel joins
     Reply #52 - July 27, 2009, 01:33 PM

    So surely God is the ultimate Boeing 747! (Yes, I know I plagiarised Dawkins!)


    dawkins had an argument for this?
  • Re: Another Infidel joins
     Reply #53 - July 27, 2009, 01:38 PM

    Cheetah:

    Regarding your statement on death
    Even as Muslims we know that if u want something done you go do it, you don't sit there and say O Allah please give me a million dollars and go sleep.

    Muslims were scholars as well, and many acheivements were made by them.

    To the others:

    Please don't respond if you are gona troll.
  • Re: Another Infidel joins
     Reply #54 - July 27, 2009, 03:15 PM

    dawkins had an argument for this?


    There is a chapter in The God Delusion titled "The Ultimate Boeing 747"

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Another Infidel joins
     Reply #55 - July 27, 2009, 03:51 PM

    There is a chapter in The God Delusion titled "The Ultimate Boeing 747"

    What was Dawkins point?

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  • Re: Another Infidel joins
     Reply #56 - July 27, 2009, 03:54 PM

    Creationists use the example of the Boeing 747 - If all the parts for the Boeing 747 were in a junkyard and a tornado came, what are the chances that the parts would assemble into a Boeing 747. But Dawkins says that if you are going to say that, then God is the ultimate Boeing 747.

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Another Infidel joins
     Reply #57 - July 27, 2009, 03:56 PM

     Thinking hard

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  • Re: Another Infidel joins
     Reply #58 - July 27, 2009, 04:51 PM

    Quote
    Muslims were scholars as well, and many acheivements were made by them.


    Yes, they were.  The poor guys would be turning in their graves if they could hear modern day muslims parrot ignorant creotard canards cooked up in the Bible belt and by con merchants like Harun Yahya.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Another Infidel joins
     Reply #59 - July 27, 2009, 06:22 PM

    Lol this thread reminds me of such old thoughts which I solved ages ago  dance

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
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