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Theme Changer

 Topic: Apostasy Sanctuary?

 (Read 3038 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Apostasy Sanctuary?
     OP - August 13, 2014, 12:11 PM

    I was born a Christian, became an athiest, and now I am contemplating a more wholistic (Scientific/Spiritualistic) understanding of reality. With that being said, I live in America and have been very fortunate to not have a religious authority dominate my reason, logic, education and inquiries. To say that I feel sorry for those who were raised in such religiously dominated societies is not even close to the sentiment I truly want to express. [A sentiment that currently has no words]

    I know very little of religions in general, and less about Islam. However, upon investigation I have unvelied what I consider to be one of the most spiritually depressing devices of religion: the notion of punishment for apostasy.

    Having been a passive member of this forum for several weeks, I have read numerous accounts of 'ex-muslims' who have had to endure unbelievable hardships and trespass seemingly insurmountable obstacles in order to merely believe what their hearts lead them to.

    And so I wonder, for those who live in religiously dominated and spiritually constricted societies, how do you manage to live in such societies while believing something other what is mandated by the religious authority of the state?

    What is one's intellectual/spiritual sanctuary? This forum? or perhaps some other means...
  • Apostasy Sanctuary?
     Reply #1 - August 13, 2014, 12:19 PM

    I was born a Christian, became an athiest, and now I am contemplating a more wholistic (Scientific/Spiritualistic) understanding of reality. With that being said, I live in America and have been very fortunate to not have a religious authority dominate my reason, logic, education and inquiries. To say that I feel sorry for those who were raised in such religiously dominated societies is not even close to the sentiment I truly want to express. [A sentiment that currently has no words] 

    I know very little of religions in general, and less about Islam. However, upon investigation I have unvelied what I consider to be one of the most spiritually depressing devices of religion: the notion of punishment for apostasy.

    Having been a passive member of this forum for several weeks, I have read numerous accounts of 'ex-muslims' who have had to endure unbelievable hardships and trespass seemingly insurmountable obstacles in order to merely believe what their hearts lead them to.

    And so I wonder, for those who live in religiously dominated and spiritually constricted societies, how do you manage to live in such societies while believing something other what is mandated by the religious authority of the state?

    What is one's intellectual/spiritual sanctuary? This forum? or perhaps some other means...

    hello mycah  welcome to CEMB...

    No..no no  intellectual  sanctuary no  spiritual sanctuary here in CEMB.,  it is all fun ..learn..teach..reach .. reach people ..put your legs in their shoes .. feel pains and pleasures

    that is all what this forum is doing ., NO  intellectual/spiritual  nonsense..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Apostasy Sanctuary?
     Reply #2 - August 13, 2014, 12:38 PM

    Unfortunately I believe my post was misinterpreted.

    I wanted to understand how non-religious people in religiously dominated societies come to find refuge from the societies in which they live. (Of course there is one's own mind, but this hardly seems good enough. )

    In reference to the notion of "intellectual and spiritual nonsense", I do not intend to create nor attract nonsense. I only hope to gain insight from those non-religious people who live in religiously dominated societies.
  • Apostasy Sanctuary?
     Reply #3 - August 13, 2014, 12:52 PM

    You live a double life. Much like a gay person in the closet.

    This forum helps a lot.
  • Apostasy Sanctuary?
     Reply #4 - August 13, 2014, 01:15 PM

    I would assume (much like Winston and Julia in the novel 1984) that the stress of leading such a double life will eventually come into the light. I also assume that when this happens, the life that existed behind closed doors will either be met with support from others in a similar situation, or it will be met with punishment on behalf of the authority.

    In a situation where there is support from like-minded others, I presume that the society will eventually change (at least to some degree) in order to accommodate those people who think differently. On behalf of this possibility I must now ask the question: Has society indeed changed in order to accommodate apostates in traditionally Muslim countries?

    In another situation where there is punishment from the religious enforcement, I presume that apostates can either suppress expression of their disbelief until it become unnoticeable by the public. ( I would think this to be mentally exhausting and eventually unbearable), or I imagine an apostate would leave the society. I've read a few blogs where ex-Muslims have done exactly this. For example, they've gone to Britain.

    But what happens when one cannot leave their country, (either because of family reasons or financial reasons etc..) and yet they cannot continue living a lie? Is there some aspect of traditionally Islamic countries where apostasy in tolerated, ..perhaps as an unwritten rule or custom?
  • Apostasy Sanctuary?
     Reply #5 - August 13, 2014, 01:24 PM

    Welcome Mycah, i guess those people live the double life hidden behind closed doors with other like minded people, either that or live in constant misery ?
  • Apostasy Sanctuary?
     Reply #6 - August 13, 2014, 02:16 PM

    Welcome! parrot
  • Apostasy Sanctuary?
     Reply #7 - August 14, 2014, 08:01 AM

    I have assumed there are very few completely closed societies now like North Korea, and that the internet is very important.

    Thinking about this, we have examples from other societies - Sozhenitsyn comes to mind.

    I think some people always found ways around the most horrendous situations.

    There is a film out now about the alleged true story of Cinderella, in which Leonardo da Vinci is a key character.  Another programme is discussing art in China, and notes how one emperor only copied some parts of the Western artistic tradition, when the reality in the West has followed Da Vinci's route of both art and science.

    For me personally, Science Fiction - Arthur C Clarke has been critical in changing things.

    I get the impression some parts of the Islamic world are stuck.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejsWm2D5S78




    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Apostasy Sanctuary?
     Reply #8 - August 14, 2014, 09:59 AM

    Just come across this - about xianity but directly relevant

    Quote
    Recovery is Revolution

    Recovery is Revolution
    “Re-examine all you have been told… Dismiss what insults your Soul"   – Walt Whitman

    In the South Pacific, “cargo cults” sprang up as religions with people longing for the return of white gods in their ships with amazing stuff – their cargo.  It sounds quaint and innocent enough, just as hoping for Jesus to come back after 2000 years is quirky but “whatever gets you through the night,” right?  But what is the real cost of having millions of people holding to a belief system with a decidedly magical view of the universe?  The consequences may be hidden and far-reaching, personal and societal, even global.  Certainly we have increasing evidence that individuals are harmed by mental and emotional trauma often unrecognized.

    Two major factors seem to be responsible for this.  One is the nature of the trauma itself.  Unlike other harm, such as physical beating or sexual abuse, the injury is far from obvious to the victim, who has learned, as part of the abuse itself to self-blame.  It’s as if a person black and blue from a caning were to think it was self-inflicted.  Much like Alice Miller described, it would follow that because it is unconscious, we have thousands of walking wounded in society suffering deeply but at a loss about their fear and rage and lack of meaning in life.

    The belief system of Christianity teaches avoidance of self-reflection.  Even those who leave take with them their low self-awareness as well as their self-loathing.  Understandably this is passed on to their children.   Christians are warned not to engage their own minds and hearts, lest they be led astray.   The most insidious Bible verses, reminders that humans are evil and foolish, are repeated so often most believers know them by heart: 

    "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked.” (Jeremiah 17:9)
    "Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes."  (Proverbs 26:5)

    Former believers have to engage in a tremendous battle to have any clarity of mind.  As one person put it:

    I hear something, read something or think something and suddenly I feel panic about the decision I have made to leave Christianity.  I start to question my reasoning.   I just feel like a battered woman trying to leave an abusive relationship.

    The second reason that religious harm goes unrecognized is that Christianity is still the cultural backdrop for the indoctrination.  While the larger society may not be fundamentalist, there are references to God and faith everywhere in the U.S.  The courts use the Bible to swear in witnesses and the President is made to put his hand on the Bible to be sworn into office.  Having faith is a requirement in this country for being in politics at all.  At President Obama’s inauguration in 2009, the invocation was given by a well-known evangelical minister and author, Rick Warren, who writes in his best selling book that people will be judged in the afterlife: “One day you will stand before God, and he will do an audit of your life, a final exam, before you enter eternity.”....


    http://journeyfreeorg.blogspot.co.uk

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Apostasy Sanctuary?
     Reply #9 - August 17, 2014, 05:48 PM

    I appreciate the insight moi, but I think you completely disregarded my questions, and to a large extent, the subject of this post.
    Thanks anyway though

  • Apostasy Sanctuary?
     Reply #10 - August 17, 2014, 05:54 PM

    You live a double life. Much like a gay person in the closet.

    This forum helps a lot.

    Basically this I'm afraid.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Apostasy Sanctuary?
     Reply #11 - August 18, 2014, 10:47 AM

    Is there anyone out there? Anyone who has experienced this type of society first hand, who can really give me a description of what it is like? Hopefully a description beyond the typical "secret life" analogy. Please understand that, as a 'Westerner' I really can't relate, and I don't know of many people with whom I can speak with in my small community.
  • Apostasy Sanctuary?
     Reply #12 - August 18, 2014, 11:22 AM

    I appreciate the insight moi, but I think you completely disregarded my questions, and to a large extent, the subject of this post.
    Thanks anyway though




    Quote
    And so I wonder, for those who live in religiously dominated and spiritually constricted societies, how do you manage to live in such societies while believing something other what is mandated by the religious authority of the state?


    I don't understand what it is I haven't responded to!  I gave examples of what others have done under repressive societies, the importance of imagination and a discussion about how the controlling society controls!

    How is that missing the point?  parrot

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Apostasy Sanctuary?
     Reply #13 - August 18, 2014, 12:01 PM

    Moi,

    From your first post, I mainly gathered that you were giving me some examples to look up. You gave examples like  Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn , the true Cinderella Story, and Arthur C Clarke. While I do recognize the similarity in two of these examples ( 'Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn' and the 'Cinderella Story'), both of which I take to be centered around the existence of individuals living repressive lives, I don't see how any of those references points me to the direction of what apostates have to endure while living in traditionally Islamic States. I'm sure I could watch that Cinderella Movie, or read one of Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's books, but neither of those things specifically relates to what I inquired.

    In a general sense, I'm certain I could extract some kind idea of living in a repressed society is like from the examples you've given, but I was hoping that someone in this forum would have first hand experiences they'd like to share. Specifically, I was curious about how Islam and Muslim's dealt with apostasy within Islamic States. I wanted someone to explain what it was really like to live a "double life"; I wanted to know what they had to do to hide their lack of faith, their day to day experiences, any sub-communities that they found were welcoming to them, their outlook on the future, how their families and friends deal with them (whether they know or not), etc...

    As for your second post, I also don't see much relevance. However, I sincerely do appreciate your willingness to respond to my questions.

    Thanks
  • Apostasy Sanctuary?
     Reply #14 - August 18, 2014, 02:42 PM

    Welcome.

    Has society indeed changed in order to accommodate apostates in traditionally Muslim countries?


    The key to an answer, I suspect, lies in your use of the word "traditional", and is somewhat bound by both a country's history and politics (which is why generalisations will be difficult) - there is no one uniform Muslim model of state or society to follow (no matter how many people will try to tell you that there is only one Islamic model - this is mainly, well, ahistorical bollocks). I will generalise as far as I think is supportible.

    To illustrate; the prominent strands of Sunni political Islam may be seen as rooted in reaction, beginning as responses to modern ideologies (the fascisms and communisms seen in Maududi's day, or Sayyid Qutb's, for that matter) and may be characterised as pseudo-traditional at best. There was a period where apostasy was not much of an official concern in some post-colonial Muslim states led by secular governments (and not a matter much affecting the secular elites who constituted them); its importance as an issue arguably grew in proportion to the influence wielded by either religious establishments, Islamist political movements or both (see e.g. Egypt, Pakistan, Iran*, from the 1970s onwards).

    Where a state has never had an intervening secular government in the aftermath of independence from a colonial power (Saudi Arabia, say), the historical picture is far murkier. While nobody doubts that there are Saudi apostates, it's difficult to imagine that a Saudi apostate can carve out a niche for themselves beyond their immediate family (if it's accepting enough of such things), never mind their clan.. which brings me to another point. There's a huge degree of variety in how societies have traditionally been constituted throughout the Muslim world; some structures may make it more difficult for apostasy to be accepted than others.

    In short, this question of what Muslim societies have the necessary room for apostasy to be accepted can't be answered beyond a country-by-country basis, and I suspect the research would be rather difficult to carry out equally thoroughly.

    * Iran may not have been, formally speaking, a colonial possession, but it fits this model nonetheless.
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