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 Topic: 47 million year old 'missing link'

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  • 47 million year old 'missing link'
     OP - May 20, 2009, 05:59 AM
    Does this stink of hoax to anyone else. Don't know why yet but, at first glance, it does to me. Remember Piltdown Man? could this be a modern attempt at 'piltdowning'.
    Ignore the clumsy reportage: It's obviously not a link (whatever that's supposed to be anyway) between apes and humans.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2009/05/19/2009-05-19_missing_link_found_fossil_of_47_millionyearold_primate_sheds_light_on_.html
    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: 47 million year old 'missing link'
     Reply #1 - May 20, 2009, 06:18 AM
    Quote from: sojournerlumus on May 20, 2009, 05:59 AM
    Does this stink of hoax to anyone else. Don't know why yet but, at first glance, it does to me. Remember Piltdown Man? could this be a modern attempt at 'piltdowning'.
    Ignore the clumsy reportage: It's obviously not a link (whatever that's supposed to be anyway) between apes and humans.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2009/05/19/2009-05-19_missing_link_found_fossil_of_47_millionyearold_primate_sheds_light_on_.html


    "A History Channel film on the discovery will air next week. "

    you'll have to wait till next week
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  • Re: 47 million year old 'missing link'
     Reply #2 - May 20, 2009, 06:22 AM
    Yes, I'll wait until I've seen more. It may just be a victim of appallingly bad reportage.
    We need a proper scientific presentation, not a mangled, sensationalised press version.
    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: 47 million year old 'missing link'
     Reply #3 - May 20, 2009, 06:37 AM
    this is some commentary in reference to the find:

    http://hotair.com/archives/2009/05/19/darwinists-rejoice-missing-link-found/

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  • Re: 47 million year old 'missing link'
     Reply #4 - May 20, 2009, 08:03 AM
    NS has an article but it's quite bad- http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/shortsharpscience/2009/05/is-ida-a-pop-star-fossil-or-po.html
    ~My story~
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  • Re: 47 million year old 'missing link'
     Reply #5 - May 20, 2009, 08:33 AM
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: 47 million year old 'missing link'
     Reply #6 - May 20, 2009, 09:22 AM
    RIP grandad
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  • Re: 47 million year old 'missing link'
     Reply #7 - May 20, 2009, 09:47 AM
    Quote from: IsLame on May 20, 2009, 09:22 AM
    RIP grandad


    It is most likely a female. Rip great, great, great, great greandmother.
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: 47 million year old 'missing link'
     Reply #8 - May 20, 2009, 09:51 AM
    Quote from: King Tut on May 20, 2009, 09:47 AM
    Quote from: IsLame on May 20, 2009, 09:22 AM
    RIP grandad


    It is most likely a female. Rip great, great, great, great greandmother.


    Actually, its most likely a female who is not our direct ancestor, so RIP great, great, great, great, grand aunt.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: 47 million year old 'missing link'
     Reply #9 - May 20, 2009, 10:24 AM
    Quote from: IsLame on May 20, 2009, 06:37 AM
    this is some commentary in reference to the find:

    http://hotair.com/archives/2009/05/19/darwinists-rejoice-missing-link-found/



    Thanks Islame, that's one helluva powerful link. I'm really looking forward to reading Colin Tudge's book, 'The Link'. With this info it sure looks like the real thing.
    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • New Evolutionary Evidence
     Reply #10 - May 20, 2009, 05:44 PM
    If you have been on Google homepage you will have seen they have changed the image to celebrate the unveiling of a new fossil that has been found that they have called "Darwinius Masillae". It is described as the "missing link" in the evolution of humans.

    Read the full story here (with video):

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/05/090519-missing-link-found.html

    Read about the Creationist reaction here:

    http://sensuouscurmudgeon.wordpress.com/2009/05/19/creationist-reactions-to-darwinius-masillae/
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: New Evolutionary Evidence
     Reply #11 - May 20, 2009, 05:50 PM
    Merge? with:

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=5431.0
  • Re: New Evolutionary Evidence
     Reply #12 - May 20, 2009, 06:00 PM
    I wish people would drop this "missing link" idiocy. There is no "THE Missing Link". There is only a succession of fully functional creatures that show change over time. Just about any dead primate can be called a missing link between one sort of primate and another.

    Anyway this latest find is very interesting in its own right but is not in any way revolutionary. It's more or less what would be expected. It just hasn't been found before. Wink
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: 47 million year old 'missing link'
     Reply #13 - May 20, 2009, 06:05 PM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on May 20, 2009, 08:03 AM
    NS has an article but it's quite bad- http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/shortsharpscience/2009/05/is-ida-a-pop-star-fossil-or-po.html

    Actually I thought that was a good article. It clearly explains the situation regarding the current media hype even if it doesn't give an in depth analysis of the fossil itself. If you'd like to read the latter I'm sure I can find you a paper on it, but it's likely to be rather heavy going. Grin
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: New Evolutionary Evidence
     Reply #14 - May 20, 2009, 06:42 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on May 20, 2009, 06:00 PM
    I wish people would drop this "missing link" idiocy. There is no "THE Missing Link". There is only a succession of fully functional creatures that show change over time. Just about any dead primate can be called a missing link between one sort of primate and another.

    Anyway this latest find is very interesting in its own right but is not in any way revolutionary. It's more or less what would be expected. It just hasn't been found before. Wink

    Isnt it a significant stage between one form & the next e.g. this one exhibited finger nails as opposed to claws and could stand on 2 legs, without which it makes it more difficult to prove that the earlier stages morphed into one another?
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  • Re: 47 million year old 'missing link'
     Reply #15 - May 20, 2009, 06:51 PM
    I think even lemurs can stand on two legs, although they don't make a habit of traveling that way. I'd have to check on that though. For that matter the majority of apes don't travel that way either, only us mutants.

    The fingernails are interesting but then you'd expect that at some point you are going to get them or else we wouldn't have them now. So if you dig in the right place, and assuming the relevant critter managed to be preserved, then fingernails are going to be on said critter. It still doesn't prove any direct link because it's from a period that so far has given us little in the way of fossil evidence. So this critter could be a case of covergent evolution but not directly related to us. We don't know at the moment because we don't have much context to put it in.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: 47 million year old 'missing link'
     Reply #16 - May 20, 2009, 06:54 PM
    I know what you're getting at. I'm just pointing out the counterbalance to all the "missing link" hype.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: 47 million year old 'missing link'
     Reply #17 - May 20, 2009, 06:57 PM
    It's a transitional species, which shows clear evidence of human evolution. Which the creationists have denied.   
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: 47 million year old 'missing link'
     Reply #18 - May 20, 2009, 07:04 PM
    No. It shows evidence of primate evolution. Obviously humans are primates but this particular critter may not be a direct ancestor of humans. We have no way of knowing whether it is or isn't.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: 47 million year old 'missing link'
     Reply #19 - May 20, 2009, 07:17 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on May 20, 2009, 07:04 PM
    No. It shows evidence of primate evolution. Obviously humans are primates but this particular critter may not be a direct ancestor of humans. We have no way of knowing whether it is or isn't.


    Well it is though, it has fingers, clear evidence of claws being replaced for fingers and thumbs.
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: 47 million year old 'missing link'
     Reply #20 - May 20, 2009, 07:21 PM
    Look up "covergent evolution".Tongue

    Basically this critter is a primate that has characteristics that we would expect to find in an ancestral primate. We still can't tell whether it is a direct ancestor of humans or not. It could be from a dead end side branch.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: 47 million year old 'missing link'
     Reply #21 - May 20, 2009, 07:24 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on May 20, 2009, 07:21 PM
    Look up "covergent evolution".Tongue

    Basically this critter is a primate that has characteristics that we would expect to find in an ancestral primate. We still can't tell whether it is a direct ancestor of humans or not. It could be from a dead end side branch.


    What about evidence suggesting it evolved into an upright position?
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: 47 million year old 'missing link'
     Reply #22 - May 20, 2009, 07:33 PM
    Same applies. I haven't read any in-depth articles from a substantive source yet but there's a vast difference between "capable of standing on two legs" and "habitually travels on two legs". 
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: 47 million year old 'missing link'
     Reply #23 - May 20, 2009, 07:48 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on May 20, 2009, 07:33 PM
    Same applies. I haven't read any in-depth articles from a substantive source yet but there's a vast difference between "capable of standing on two legs" and "habitually travels on two legs". 

    But the above is the ONLY species showing, that phase of going from walking on four legs to two, a clear transition, before this we did not have this transitional species, we know this was the process but we did no have fossil evidence for it. 
    Left the forum: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=22997
  • Re: 47 million year old 'missing link'
     Reply #24 - May 20, 2009, 07:58 PM
    I typed in "Darwinius Masillae" in the search box and there were no results so I started a whole new thread. Sorry about that.

    From what I've heard Creationists are using the argument "If we evolved from these lemurs, then why are there still lemurs around?" Sound familiar?

    What I wanna know is, if these new Flamin' Cheeseball flavour Doritos I am eating came from whole maize kernels, then how come there are still whole maize kernels around?  popcorn
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: 47 million year old 'missing link'
     Reply #25 - May 20, 2009, 08:09 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on May 20, 2009, 07:58 PM
    I typed in "Darwinius Masillae" in the search box and there were no results so I started a whole new thread. Sorry about that.

    From what I've heard Creationists are using the argument "If we evolved from these lemurs, then why are there still lemurs around?" Sound familiar?

    What I wanna know is, if these new Flamin' Cheeseball flavour Doritos I am eating came from whole maize kernels, then how come there are still whole maize kernels around?  popcorn

    Because your maize kernels still are able to stand their own, with or without Doritos.  Doritos just seem to be bettter placed in todays society so you find them everywhere, but its a big world out there for them both to survive despite todays competitive environment.  Who knows either / both / none will be around tomorrow, thats another day.
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  • Re: 47 million year old 'missing link'
     Reply #26 - May 21, 2009, 08:24 AM
    It's not the missing link - http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17173-why-ida-fossil-is-not-the-missing-link.html
    Quote
    Ida forms the basis for a new genus and species of adapiform primate, Darwinius massillae. The adapids are a branch of the primate tree that leads to modern lemurs.

    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: 47 million year old 'missing link'
     Reply #27 - May 23, 2009, 11:52 PM
    For anyone who really wants to know about this critter without all the media hype here's one of them scientific papers I threatened to dredge up. There's a lot of nasty scientific stuff but also some cool information.

    Complete Primate Skeleton from the Middle Eocene of Messel in Germany: Morphology and Paleobiology  parrot

    From the section of the paper on locomotion we have this:

    Quote
    When Darwinius is projected into this PCA, as the juvenile it is (filled red circle) or as the adult it is projected to have become (open red circle), the result is virtually the same. Darwinius falls in the middle of both plots, near Callitrichidae in size, and overlapping Lemuridae and Cebidae in trunk and limb proportions. Thus Darwinius is interpreted as an arboreal quadruped specialized neither for slow climbing nor for leaping. Notharctus osbornianus (filled blue circle) is a larger North American contemporary of Darwinius masillae, but it occupies a similarly central position in the PCA.


    and this:

    Quote
    After comparative study, we conclude that the Darwinius holotype was a juvenile female, weaned and feeding independently on fruit and leaves in the middle floor of early Middle Eocene rain forest of Messel. She may have been nocturnal. She moved as an agile, nail bearing arboreal quadruped and, although perhaps only 60 percent of adult weight at death (Fig. 12), would have grown to be the size of an adult female Hapalemur, in the range of 650–900 g. Her pattern of tooth development shows that her species grew up fairly quickly and suggests that she died before one year of age.


    So the claims that the critter was basically a terrestrial biped are complete bollocks. Darwinius was not adapted to walk around on two legs.  Wink

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: 47 million year old 'missing link'
     Reply #28 - May 24, 2009, 05:34 AM
    Uncovering Our Earliest Ancestor: The Link

    The story behind one of the 21st century's most ground-breaking scientific discoveries, which is set to change humanity's understanding of the mechanics of evolution. David Attenborough narrates.

    Tuesday 26th May on BBC1 from 9:00pm to 10:00pm

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2009/05_may/19/ancestor.shtml

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00ksh5y
  • Re: 47 million year old 'missing link'
     Reply #29 - May 24, 2009, 05:49 AM
    Oh bloody hell. Why do the Beeb have to be so goddammed retarded about this? That press release is complete bollocks. This fossil is not going to "revolutionise our understanding of human evolution". It isn't even on our direct ancestral line. It's from a side branch of extinct critters. Bloody populist tossers that don't read the scientific papers but want to preach to the public about something they know nothing about. They spread more bullshit than the average imam.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
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