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Theme Changer

 Topic: Pre Islamic Achievements of Islamic or Islam Ruled Societies

 (Read 9580 times)
  • Previous page 1 2« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: Pre Islamic Achievements of Islamic or Islam Ruled Societies
     Reply #30 - May 11, 2009, 05:33 AM

    Second one doesn't mean anything. First one might carry some weight.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Pre Islamic Achievements of Islamic or Islam Ruled Societies
     Reply #31 - May 11, 2009, 06:41 AM

    I found a translation of the "pious preface" mentioned by Toomer.

    Quote from: al-Khwarizmi
    Let us speak praises to God our guide and defender,
    worthy both to render Him His due and multiply His praise by increasing it, and
    let us entreat Him to guide us in the path of righteousness and lead us into the way
    of truth, and to help us in addition with goodwill in these things which we have
    decided to set out and reveal: concerning the numbering of the Indians by means
    of IX symbols (literae), by which they set out their universal system of numbering,
    for the sake of its ease and brevity, so that this work, to be sure, might be
    made easier for the seeker after arithmetic, i.e., the greatest number as much as
    the smallest, and whatever there is in it as a result of multiplication and division,
    also addition and subtraction, etc.

    Since I had seen that the Indians had set up IX symbols in their
    universal system of numbering, on account of the arrangement which they established,
    I wished to reveal, concerning the work that is done by means of them,
    something which might be easier for learners if God so willed. If, moreover, the
    Indians had this desire and their intention with these IX symbols was the reason
    which was apparent to me, God directed me to this. If, on the other hand, for
    some reason other than that which I have expounded, they did this by means of
    this which I have expounded, the same reason will most certainly and without any
    doubt be able to be found. And this will easily be clear to those who examine and
    learn.

    This doesn't prove he was a Muslim as he didn't mention Muhammad, a Zoroastrian might well praise and invoke his God in these terms.

    From the contemporary reference to Khwarizmi as a Majusi, together with his Avestan name, it seems plausible he was indeed a Zoroastrian.

    "It may happen that the enemies of Islam may consider it expedient not to take any action against Islam, if Islam leaves them alone in their geographical boundaries... But Islam cannot agree to this unless they submit to its authority by paying Jizyah"

    -Sayyid Qutb, Milestones
  • Re: Pre Islamic Achievements of Islamic or Islam Ruled Societies
     Reply #32 - May 11, 2009, 06:54 AM

    There is absolutely nothing Islamic about that preface. It could apply to any religion at all.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Pre Islamic Achievements of Islamic or Islam Ruled Societies
     Reply #33 - May 11, 2009, 07:05 AM

    An excerpt from another translation of the benediction found in this book (Al-Khwarizmi
     by Corona Brezina):

    Quote
    Prais'd be God for his bounty towards those who deserve it by their virtuous acts... He sent MOHAMMED (on whom may the blessing of God repose!) with the mission of a prophet, long after any messenger from above had appeared, when justice had fallen into neglect, and when the true way of life was sought for in vain. Through him he was cured of blindness, and saved him from perdition, and increased through him what before was small, and collected through him what before was scattered. Praised be God our Lord! and may his glory increase, and may all his names be hallowed -- besides whom there is no God; and may his benediction rest of MOHAMMED the Prophet and on his descendants!


    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Pre Islamic Achievements of Islamic or Islam Ruled Societies
     Reply #34 - May 11, 2009, 07:11 AM

    Well that is a completely different text. What's the entire thing say?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Pre Islamic Achievements of Islamic or Islam Ruled Societies
     Reply #35 - May 11, 2009, 07:30 AM

    Aksel, from where did you find that translation?

    eta:

    Aha! Found the translation excerpted in the book I quoted. WikiP has it "A unique Arabic copy is kept at Oxford and was translated in 1831 by F. Rosen."  "The Algebra" translated by Frederick Rosen, whom he names al-Khwarizmi as "Mohammed ben Musa"  dance

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Pre Islamic Achievements of Islamic or Islam Ruled Societies
     Reply #36 - May 11, 2009, 08:31 AM

    Aksel, from where did you find that translation? And his Avestan name?

    eta:

    Aha! Found the translation excerpted in the book I quoted. WikiP has it "A unique Arabic copy is kept at Oxford and was translated in 1831 by F. Rosen."  "The Algebra" translated by Frederick Rosen, whom he names al-Khwarizmi as "Mohammed ben Musa"  dance


    Don't be so hasty awais, either during quoting Islamic Scriptures out of context to make them sound benign & beautiful, or while giving undue credit to Islam.

    Here's a book on al Khwarizmi by Corona Brezina where she too writes about Tabari mentioning Khwarizmi as a Zoroastrian. The counter evidence is that Khwarizmi praised Muhammad & Islam in his writings, but that would pretty much compulsory for someone living under Islamic rule. She further states that his family was probably Zoroastrian, & he too was probably a follower of that faith in his youth.

    He might have converted to Islam in later life, & this conversion greatly facilitated his position in Court, he was a Muslim, from a fire worshipping dhimmi now! Roll Eyes
     And here's the Wikipedia article on him:
    Quote from: wikipedia
    The historian al-Tabari gave his name as Muhammad ibn Musa al-Khwārizmī al-Majousi al-Katarbali (Arabic: محمد بن موسى الخوارزميّ المجوسيّ القطربّليّ). The epithet al-Qutrubbulli indicates he might instead have came from Qutrubbull, a small town near Baghdad. Regarding al-Khwārizmī's religion, Toomer writes:
    Another epithet given to him by al-Ṭabarī, "al-Majūsī," would seem to indicate that he was an adherent of the old Zoroastrian religion. This would still have been possible at that time for a man of Iranian origin, but the pious preface to al-Khwārizmī's Algebra shows that he was an orthodox Muslim, so al-Ṭabarī's epithet could mean no more than that his forebears, and perhaps he in his youth, had been a Zoroastrian.[8]
    In Ibn al-Nadīm's Kitāb al-Fihrist we find a short biography on al-Khwārizmī, together with a list of the books he wrote. Al-Khwārizmī accomplished most of his work in the period between 813 and 833. After the Islamic conquest of Persia, Baghdad became the center of scientific studies and trade, and many merchants and scientists, from as far as China and India, traveled to this city?and apparently, so did Al-Khwārizmī. He worked in Baghdad as a scholar at the House of Wisdom established by Caliph al-Maʾmūn, where he studied the sciences and mathematics, which included the translation of Greek and Sanskrit scientific manuscripts.


    Of course, the Muslims made full use of Greaco Indian knowledge, while giving the people of those civilizations a terrible time!

    Now they have to make a big brouhaha about their scientific(or is it translation? Roll Eyes ) achievements, when they had newly conquered successful & achieving cultures, & made dhimmis of the population, slowly draining out their creativity-& shout from the rooftops about the fact that a Zoroastrian\ newly converted from Zoroastrianism to Islam to  be freed of dhimmi status guy had contributed to Algebra! finmad

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Pre Islamic Achievements of Islamic or Islam Ruled Societies
     Reply #37 - May 11, 2009, 08:49 AM

    Seems you're the hasty one. Did you not see that you quoted the same book and article I did. Roll Eyes

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Pre Islamic Achievements of Islamic or Islam Ruled Societies
     Reply #38 - May 11, 2009, 08:55 AM

    Seems you're the hasty one. Did you not see that you quoted the same book and article I did. Roll Eyes


    I noticed that, what does it say? Khwarizmi converted to Islam, by his own admission?

    Khwarizmi declared that, "I am a Muslim, my God is Allah?"

    Khwarizmi was reciting the shahada?

    Nope.

    He praised Mo, & spoke of his devotion to God, an Only God. Zoroastrians too have a single God.

    As for praising Mo as a Prophet, not only would it be suicidal to criticise Mo(then & now) but if a few words of praise for Mo & his achievements as a Prophet could help Khwarizmi move ahead in life, why not?

    Nowhere does it speak of a conversion to Islam, only his praise for Mo, something which would help him get ahead in life, & his piety to a single God-again something Zoroastrians too have.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Pre Islamic Achievements of Islamic or Islam Ruled Societies
     Reply #39 - May 11, 2009, 09:08 AM

    Some more pre Islamic achievements:

    The mirror:
    Quote
    Mirrors of polished copper were crafted in Mesopotamia from 4000 BC, and in ancient
    Egypt from around 3000 BC. Metal-coated glass mirrors are said to have been invented in Sidon (modern-day Lebanon) in the first century AD


    The perfume:

    Quote from: wikipedia perfumes
    Perfumery, or the art of making perfumes, began in ancient Mesopotamia and Egypt and was further refined by the Romans and Persians. Although perfume and perfumery also existed in India, much of its fragrances are incense based. The world's first recorded chemist is considered to be a woman named Tapputi, a perfume maker who was mentioned in a cuneiform tablet from the second millennium BC in Mesopotamia.[1] She distilled flowers, oil, and calamus with other aromatics then filtered and put them back in the still several times.[2]


    Today, Tapputi's Muslim descendents blow themselves up for Allah, under Al Queda's training! dance

    But then Allah does hate women wearing perfumes, yet says,

    " He that leaves his dwelling to fight for God & His Apostle & is overtaken by death, shall be rewarded by God...(Quran 4:95-101) bunny








    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Pre Islamic Achievements of Islamic or Islam Ruled Societies
     Reply #40 - May 11, 2009, 09:12 AM

    But then Allah does hate women wearing perfumes, yet says,

    " He that leaves his dwelling to fight for God & His Apostle & is overtaken by death, shall be rewarded by God...(Quran 4:95-101) bunny

    What does that ayah have to do with anything?

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Pre Islamic Achievements of Islamic or Islam Ruled Societies
     Reply #41 - May 11, 2009, 09:18 AM

    But then Allah does hate women wearing perfumes, yet says,

    " He that leaves his dwelling to fight for God & His Apostle & is overtaken by death, shall be rewarded by God...(Quran 4:95-101) bunny

    What does that ayah have to do with anything?


    Nothing, just mentioned it, seems peculiar why Allah &\or Muhammad dislikes perfumes but likes these sort of actions! Tongue

    Again, where did Khwarizmi perform & record his shahada? I regularly have to sing hymns to Jesus as my "Lord & Saviour & a blessing to our World," in school, does this make me a Christian?

    If I have to do this for a boarding school, Khwarizmi would probably have to  :buttkiss:his Muslim rulers more than a li'l bit, if he wanted to get ahead in life as a very intelligent guy, born in the wrong faith...

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Pre Islamic Achievements of Islamic or Islam Ruled Societies
     Reply #42 - May 11, 2009, 09:32 AM

    Allah dislikes women wearing perfume outside the home around men they're not married to. At home it's cool. He likes men to wear perfume.

    al-Khwarizmi may have converted for economic advantage, but he chose to write with those words. "few details about al-Khwārizmī's life are known" "perhaps he in his youth, had been Zoroastrian" It's all speculation, but it leans towards him being muslim. Tongue

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Pre Islamic Achievements of Islamic or Islam Ruled Societies
     Reply #43 - May 11, 2009, 09:41 AM

    Allah dislikes women wearing perfume outside the home around men they're not married to. At home it's cool. He likes men to wear perfume.


    Oh how sweet & magnanimous of Allah! grin12

    al-Khwarizmi may have converted for economic advantage, but he chose to write with those words. "few details about al-Khwārizmī's life are known" "perhaps he in his youth, had been Zoroastrian" It's all speculation, but it leans towards him being muslim. Tongue


    Again, its difficult to come to a conclusion, Tabari a fellow Persian seems to suggest Zoroastrianism was Khwarizmi's current\ex faith, he wrote a few words praising Allah & Mo which was a prudent move to use his talents fully, might \might not have converted to Islam, didn't recite the shahada in his words etc.

    Point is Khwarizmi came not from arid, unsuccessful Saudi but from a region which had been a global superpower & pre eminent innovator for a millennia & was conquered by a faith which demanded conversion or jizya & dhimmi status, he made some translations of Indian\Greek knowledge(two other old successful civilizations) + added bits to that & on top of that even whether he was Muslim is questionable.

    How gloriously all this reflects on Islam's so called Golden Age!  mysmilie_977
    When you have little to boast about, invent some stuff to boast about & tom tom those! dance

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Pre Islamic Achievements of Islamic or Islam Ruled Societies
     Reply #44 - May 11, 2009, 09:51 AM

    sidenote: it bothers me that you refer to Arabia as Saudi before the Saudis took it over.

    Quote from: WikiP
    The current Kingdom was founded by Abdul-Aziz bin Saud, whose efforts began in 1902 when he captured the Al-Saud?s ancestral home of Riyadh, and culminated in 1932 with the proclamation and recognition of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, though its national origins go back as far as 1744 with the establishment of the First Saudi State.

    Before that, it was just regular ole' Arabia.

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Pre Islamic Achievements of Islamic or Islam Ruled Societies
     Reply #45 - May 11, 2009, 10:00 AM

    sidenote: it bothers me that you refer to Arabia as Saudi before the Saudis took it over.

    Quote from: WikiP
    The current Kingdom was founded by Abdul-Aziz bin Saud, whose efforts began in 1902 when he captured the Al-Saud?s ancestral home of Riyadh, and culminated in 1932 with the proclamation and recognition of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, though its national origins go back as far as 1744 with the establishment of the First Saudi State.

    Before that, it was just regular ole' Arabia.


    Allright good point-regular ole' Arabia!  Smiley

    Persia=Iran

    Mesopotemia=Sumer = Babylon

    Bharatvarsh=Hindustan=India

    So many names! Cool

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Pre Islamic Achievements of Islamic or Islam Ruled Societies
     Reply #46 - May 12, 2009, 03:58 AM

    Aksel, from where did you find that translation?

    eta:

    Aha! Found the translation excerpted in the book I quoted. WikiP has it "A unique Arabic copy is kept at Oxford and was translated in 1831 by F. Rosen."  "The Algebra" translated by Frederick Rosen, whom he names al-Khwarizmi as "Mohammed ben Musa"  dance


    Here's the link, but you will need a subscription to Historia Mathematica to view it.

    Quote from: Rashna
    Point is Khwarizmi came not from arid, unsuccessful Saudi but from a region which had been a global superpower & pre eminent innovator for a millennia & was conquered by a faith which demanded conversion or jizya & dhimmi status, he made some translations of Indian\Greek knowledge(two other old successful civilizations) + added bits to that & on top of that even whether he was Muslim is questionable.

    How gloriously all this reflects on Islam's so called Golden Age!

     
    Exactly Rashna, couldn't have said it better myself.  parrot

    "It may happen that the enemies of Islam may consider it expedient not to take any action against Islam, if Islam leaves them alone in their geographical boundaries... But Islam cannot agree to this unless they submit to its authority by paying Jizyah"

    -Sayyid Qutb, Milestones
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