Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →
↑ ↓
CEMB → Forum → Life, The Universe & Everything → Science → Absurd Doubts

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts

Do humans have needed kno...
Yesterday at 06:51 PM
اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
April 28, 2024, 06:41 AM
Lights on the way
by akay
April 27, 2024, 01:26 PM
New Britain
April 27, 2024, 08:42 AM
What's happened to the fo...
April 27, 2024, 08:30 AM
Qur'anic studies today
April 23, 2024, 02:50 AM
Do humans have needed kno...
April 20, 2024, 08:02 AM
Iran launches drones
April 13, 2024, 05:56 PM
عيد مبارك للجميع! ^_^
by akay
April 12, 2024, 12:01 PM
Eid-Al-Fitr
by akay
April 12, 2024, 08:06 AM
Mock Them and Move on., ...
January 30, 2024, 05:44 AM
Pro Israel or Pro Palesti...
January 29, 2024, 08:53 AM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Absurd Doubts

 (Read 45277 times)
  • 12 3 ... 13 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Absurd Doubts
     OP - May 08, 2009, 11:46 AM
    I know you guys consider me an infidel.

    But if I may, I would like to you an imprtant question.

    You people say you do not believe in religion.

    You claim that you have left false beliefs.

    You do not accept holy men, and have decided to follow scientists.

    I want to know something from you.

    What exactly do you doubt?

    Please tell me as to what is it that you actually doubt.

    truthful person never fears debates: http://omrow.blogspot.com/
  • Re: Absurd Doubts
     Reply #1 - May 08, 2009, 11:47 AM
    Quote
    You claim that you have left false beliefs and follow science.


    Who claimed that?  Nobody "follows" science, its not a faith.   Roll Eyes
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Absurd Doubts
     Reply #2 - May 08, 2009, 11:50 AM
    Come on, you know what I mean.

    Scientists are more trusted to you than any Prophet or holy man.

    Right?

    truthful person never fears debates: http://omrow.blogspot.com/
  • Re: Absurd Doubts
     Reply #3 - May 08, 2009, 11:55 AM
    Wrong.  Scientists tend to produce evidence for their claims, holy people don't.  And like any sensible person I doubt anything that has no evidence to back its claims, whether its said by a scientist or a priest/imam.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Absurd Doubts
     Reply #4 - May 08, 2009, 12:10 PM
    Dont you think its better to presume innocence until proven guility.

    You are on a path of cruelty, Cheetah.

    truthful person never fears debates: http://omrow.blogspot.com/
  • Re: Absurd Doubts
     Reply #5 - May 08, 2009, 12:18 PM
    Quote
    Dont you think its better to presume innocence until proven guility.


    Presuming innocence till proven guilty is exactly what I do - that's why I need evidence before I believe something.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Absurd Doubts
     Reply #6 - May 08, 2009, 01:02 PM
    Well i doubt ya gonna be fckin 70odd virgins when ya dead thats 4 sure.
  • Re: Absurd Doubts
     Reply #7 - May 08, 2009, 01:26 PM
    Quote from: rayback on May 08, 2009, 11:46 AM
    I know you guys consider me an infidel.

    But if I may, I would like to you an imprtant question.

    You people say you do not believe in religion.

    You claim that you have left false beliefs.

    You do not accept holy men, and have decided to follow scientists.

    I want to know something from you.

    What exactly do you doubt?

    Please tell me as to what is it that you actually doubt.


    Doubts were things I had a long time ago.

    I am now quite sure that the Qur'an is man made (as is the Bible).

    Why? There are many reasons, but for me Hell is at the top of the list.

    Smiley
  • Re: Absurd Doubts
     Reply #8 - May 08, 2009, 01:50 PM
    Quote from: rayback on May 08, 2009, 11:46 AM


    You do not accept holy men, and have decided to follow scientists.

    I want to know something from you.






    I follow no one. I worship nothing


    Quote from: rayback on May 08, 2009, 11:46 AM

    What exactly do you doubt?

    Please tell me as to what is it that you actually doubt.



    It not a matter of doubt...I simply have no reason to believe that there are supernatural super intelligent entities that control the universe. 


    Quote from: rayback on May 08, 2009, 11:50 AM
    Come on, you know what I mean.

    Scientists are more trusted to you than any Prophet or holy man.

    Right?





    Much as Medical Doctors are more trusted than voodoo necromancers.
    If you are very sick, and you can only choose one.....do you drink medicine or holy water? 
    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Absurd Doubts
     Reply #9 - May 08, 2009, 02:44 PM
    Quote from: rayback on May 08, 2009, 12:10 PM
    Dont you think its better to presume innocence until proven guility.

    You are on a path of cruelty, Cheetah.




    She's on a slippery slope to cruelty?  Because she questions bizarre stories about the divine?  Maybe you're right... and we should all stick to that totally safe, unslippery slope of blind faith.

    Out of curiousity... do you presume that Joseph Smith of Mormon fame (and the faith he espoused) are 'innocent'?
  • Re: Absurd Doubts
     Reply #10 - May 09, 2009, 07:53 AM
    Can we please get back to the original question I asked?

    Hassan said he doubts the existence of Hell. That's his number one doubt.

    Perhaps the gentleman has a problem with the concept of severe punishment.

    Our other member, Variable, asked about Joseph Smith.

    Well, I think it is not nice to call any man a liar until you are sure that he is lying. I think thats common sense.  Cheetah is cruel to convict people without proving them guility.

    Homer asked about dribking holy water to cure a disease.

    It think, if any you were "convinced" that a glass did contained holy water, then you too would drink it for your illness than trust man-made remedies.

    truthful person never fears debates: http://omrow.blogspot.com/
  • Re: Absurd Doubts
     Reply #11 - May 09, 2009, 07:56 AM
    I doubt everything. Next question?
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Absurd Doubts
     Reply #12 - May 09, 2009, 07:58 AM
    I'd very much like to know what your doubts are, Rayback. I'm very curious.
  • Re: Absurd Doubts
     Reply #13 - May 09, 2009, 08:07 AM
    On par with Hassan, the existence of Hell ranks top. The notion of a crime so terrible that it warrants eternal and infinate punishment is enough for many people to begin doubting, but the fact that it is dished out by an alleged benevolent, merciful God just makes the whole belief nonsensical.

    Anyway, given Hassan already took Hell, I'll offer my second biggest source of doubt, and that is regarding destiny (or 'qadr') and judgement. If God is an all-knowing creator, then he knows exactly what each of his creations will do, even before he has created them (thus the notion of destiny). But if the purpose of life on earth is to be judged in the afterlife, then the all-knowing creator did not need to bother with creation, since he already knows the outcome. Likewise, if he is all-knowing, and creator of all, then he created and thus determined what each of his creations would do in their lives. This makes the whole notion of creation with subsequent judgement nonsensical.
  • Re: Absurd Doubts
     Reply #14 - May 09, 2009, 08:10 AM
    Quote from: heartbomb on May 09, 2009, 07:58 AM
    I'd very much like to know what your doubts are, Rayback. I'm very curious.


    Ok.

    I doubt the integrity of bad scientists like Richard Dawkins.

    They are fanatics worse than religious fanatics.

    By the way, nice name kid.

    truthful person never fears debates: http://omrow.blogspot.com/
  • Re: Absurd Doubts
     Reply #15 - May 09, 2009, 08:11 AM
    Quote from: rayback on May 09, 2009, 08:10 AM
    Quote from: heartbomb on May 09, 2009, 07:58 AM
    I'd very much like to know what your doubts are, Rayback. I'm very curious.

    Ok.

    I doubt the integrity of bad scientists like Richard Dawkins.

    They are fanatics worse than religious fanatics.

    How so? All of it, I mean.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Absurd Doubts
     Reply #16 - May 09, 2009, 08:14 AM
    Quote from: rayback on May 09, 2009, 08:10 AM
    Quote from: heartbomb on May 09, 2009, 07:58 AM
    I'd very much like to know what your doubts are, Rayback. I'm very curious.


    Ok.

    I doubt the integrity of bad scientists like Richard Dawkins.

    They are fanatics worse than religious fanatics.

    By the way, nice name kid.




    I can assure you I am not a kid.

    I doubt the integrity of a 1400 or so year old book that has been passed down, changed, caused divisions amongst sects and a lot of bloody violence.

    No one has killed anyone in the name of Dawkins. Can't say the same about the Qur'an, the oh-so-holy word of Allah.
  • Re: Absurd Doubts
     Reply #17 - May 09, 2009, 08:23 AM
    Osmanthus.

    Fanantic religious scholars tend to exploit uneducated people and hence brainwash them with their own interpretations that are quite contrary to the original teachings of their God or Holy men.

    Bad scientists also manipulate people who are gullible and program them into accepting certain ideas that are opposite to actual findings of science.

    For example, a top genetic expert in South Korea was arrested for faking research and passing it on to his students as genuine discoveries.


    Quote from: MrSilly on May 09, 2009, 08:07 AM

    ...the existence of Hell ranks top...

    I'll offer my second biggest source of doubt, and that is regarding destiny (or 'qadr') and judgement. If God is an all-knowing creator, then he knows exactly what each of his creations will do, even before he has created them (thus the notion of destiny). But if the purpose of life on earth is to be judged in the afterlife, then the all-knowing creator did not need to bother with creation, since he already knows the outcome. Likewise, if he is all-knowing, and creator of all, then he created and thus determined what each of his creations would do in their lives. This makes the whole notion of creation with subsequent judgement nonsensical.


    Brilliantly put.

    I doubt such a scenario as well.

    It does not make sense at all.


    truthful person never fears debates: http://omrow.blogspot.com/
  • Re: Absurd Doubts
     Reply #18 - May 09, 2009, 08:24 AM
    Quote from: rayback on May 09, 2009, 08:23 AM

    For example, a top genetic expert in North Korea was arrested for faking research and passing it on to his students as genuine discoveries.



    Just existing is enough to get you arrested in North Korea.
  • Re: Absurd Doubts
     Reply #19 - May 09, 2009, 08:26 AM
    I meant South Korea.

    Typing error, just corrected it.
    truthful person never fears debates: http://omrow.blogspot.com/
  • Re: Absurd Doubts
     Reply #20 - May 09, 2009, 08:28 AM
    Quote from: rayback on May 09, 2009, 08:26 AM
    I meant South Korea.

    Typing error, just corrected it.


    Are you talking about the dog cloning thing a few years ago?

    More to the point, what is your point?
  • Re: Absurd Doubts
     Reply #21 - May 09, 2009, 08:41 AM
    Quote from: rayback on May 09, 2009, 08:23 AM
    Osmanthus.

    Fanantic religious scholars tend to exploit uneducated people and hence brainwash them with their own interpretations that are quite contrary to the original teachings of their God or Holy men.

    Bad scientists also manipulate people who are gullible and program them into accepting certain ideas that are opposite to actual findings of science.

    For example, a top genetic expert in South Korea was arrested for faking research and passing it on to his students as genuine discoveries.

    Points for your consideration:

    1/ In the case of "Islamic extremists" they have solid textual backing from the most highly regarded texts in mainstream Islam. These texts record the original teachings of the Islamic holy man, Mohammed, who claimed to have received them directly from Allah.

    2/ This would go some way to explaining how said scholars became fanatical in the first place. They are simply being true to what the texts tell them.

    3/ Yes, that bloke in Korea was clobbered for falsifying data. In case you have forgotten this has nothing whatsoever to do with Dawkins or anyone else. Condemning people who were not involved makes no sense.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Absurd Doubts
     Reply #22 - May 09, 2009, 08:43 AM
    Quote from: rayback on May 09, 2009, 08:10 AM

    Ok.

    I doubt the integrity of bad scientists like Richard Dawkins.

    They are fanatics worse than religious fanatics.

    By the way, nice name kid.




    I doubt the integrity of pseudo scientists who have actually studied fine arts who pretend to be knowledgable about biology and evolution.

    Anyway, the first major doubt that i had has already been mentioned - the concept of predestination. In about 2005, it started to puzzle me and I bought a book from the Islamic Propagation Centre (an accurate name for the business), and I read the book and it still puzzled me and didn't make much sense. I asked someone about these ayat:

    2:6-7 As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not. Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.

    And his easy response was "there are some things that we just cannot understand and comprehend so we must just have faith.

    I also started reading the Qur'an more critically rather than just accepting it as truth and more and more doubts kept cropping up. I started asking questions that I remember asking my mum and dad when I was a child, like

    "how come believers have a massive advantage over non-believers. It is no fault of the non believers that they were born to non muslim parents. So most muslims are lucky that they had these beliefs instilled in them from childhood whereas non muslims have to find all this out for themselves, and they still receive the same punishment as muslims who end up disbelieving".

    Also, hell as was mentioned by Hassan really does not make any sense.

    Other doubts I had were mostly scientific inaccuracies, such as a geocentric universe, shooting stars are missiles that are fired at jinns and so on.
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Absurd Doubts
     Reply #23 - May 09, 2009, 11:11 AM
    Quote from: aliadiere on May 09, 2009, 08:43 AM

    I doubt the integrity of pseudo scientists who have actually studied fine arts who pretend to be knowledgable about biology and evolution.

    Anyway, the first major doubt that i had has already been mentioned - the concept of predestination.

    In about 2005, it started to puzzle me and I bought a book from the Islamic Propagation Centre (an accurate name for the business), and I read the book and it still puzzled me and didn't make much sense. I asked someone about these ayat:

    2:6-7 As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not. Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.



    Some Atheists also accuse religious people of being stubborn. There is whole thread here on the subject. They claim that no matter how much scientific evidence is presented to some religious fanatics, they are so brainwashed that they will never leave their delusions.

    Its a fair criticism. And it is a true observation. Some religious nutters are totally closed off.

    That criticism is exactly what the verse is making about some Atheists: That no matter how good the reason, or, even if they were shown a divine miracle, they would dismiss it as a trick, and reject all reasonable arguments.

    After a certain number of chances given to them to use or abuse their God given-intellect, God says that as a punishment He has sealed their mind. They will now burn in Hell.

    I also do not accept predestination. But you have to ask is that what is being presented in the verses?

    Honest thinkers would never have double standards in evaluating things.

    Any serious researcher should use their intellect to its best capacity and not follow what suits their wishes and desires.

    If a person is not truly objective then he willl only hear whatever he LIKES to hear.

    Truth never fits the biased.

    truthful person never fears debates: http://omrow.blogspot.com/
  • Re: Absurd Doubts
     Reply #24 - May 09, 2009, 11:29 AM
    Erm. yeah Huh?
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Absurd Doubts
     Reply #25 - May 09, 2009, 12:10 PM
    Quote from: rayback on May 09, 2009, 11:11 AM
    After a certain number of chances given to them to use or abuse their God given-intellect, God says that as a punishment He has sealed their mind. They will now burn in Hell.


    For arguments sake, let's say there really is such a God that sends people to Hell.

    Could you clarify exactly why these unbelievers are going to be kept alive by God so that he can torture them eternally in Hell?

    Are you saying they know Islam is the truth but still refuse to submit (knowing they will be tortured eternally)?

    Or is it that they are genuinely not convinced?

    Is it their reasoning abilities that fail them?

    Or is it that they "abuse" their reasoning abilities? (Please explain how and why anyone would do that? Are they a little crazy? Evil? - Whose fault is that?)

    I'd be interested in your answers. Smiley
  • Re: Absurd Doubts
     Reply #26 - May 09, 2009, 12:17 PM
    @Rayback.

    Let me cut to the chase.

    Hell is an unbelievably cruel punishment. Cruel beyond all reason - beyond all imagination (eternity of the most agonising torture is unimaginable)

    It is also completely unjust.

    If a Muslim really understands the Qur'an and is honest - and still clings to his faith that Islam is true - then he must accept that the God of Islam is incredibly cruel and unjust.

    I have a certain amount of respect for Ahmed Bahgat because he accepted that and only said in defense of God that - well he is God and we are his puny creation and so he can do whatever he wants and we cant say anything.

    Fine!

    If you believe that - then be honest and says so.

    But don't pretend that Hell can be justified in any shape or form.

    Thanks Smiley
  • Re: Absurd Doubts
     Reply #27 - May 09, 2009, 01:20 PM
    The only possible logical reason why a God like that would make a hell like that is that some clever spark/group of clever sparks wanted to think up the worst punishment possible, worse than anything else, the most vile form of horror porn imaginable, so that it could be used as a threat at all times, far reaching, ensuring that even when you are alone, behind closed doors, God is still watching you very fucking carefully! The fact that this form of punishment for not 'doing like us' is inwardly relished by its followers (they will have proven themselves 'good' the others, 'bad'. Hell being the ultimate  'see I told you!') is yet more proof, if needed, that the reason it is so appealing/abhorent (depending on where you stand) to a human's ego is because it comes from one. The worst thing about Islam, to me, is the thought of all that wasted time and effort and lack of fun - all for nothing, that's nearly as bad as the eternal fire......maybe not Smiley
    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Absurd Doubts
     Reply #28 - May 09, 2009, 01:20 PM
    Quote from: rayback on May 08, 2009, 11:46 AM
    I know you guys consider me an infidel.

    But if I may, I would like to you an imprtant question.

    You people say you do not believe in religion.

    You claim that you have left false beliefs.

    You do not accept holy men, and have decided to follow scientists.

    I want to know something from you.

    What exactly do you doubt?

    Please tell me as to what is it that you actually doubt.




    I do not consider you an infidel. You have the wrong god. That's all.
  • Re: Absurd Doubts
     Reply #29 - May 09, 2009, 01:44 PM
    Quote from: Shaneequa on May 09, 2009, 01:20 PM


    I do not consider you an infidel. You have the wrong god. That's all.


    On could be forgiven no?  There are so many of them out there...
  • 12 3 ... 13 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »