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Theme Changer

 Topic: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?

 (Read 17529 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
     OP - April 19, 2009, 11:40 PM


    Why Was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?

    This site explains why! grin12

    Quote from: quran.org
    We learn from 41:44 that the sincere believers have access to the Quran, regardless of their mother tongue. The disbelievers, on the other hand, are not permitted access to the Quran, even if they are professors of the Arabic language (17:45, 18:57, 41:44, & 56:79).


    Arabic is the most efficient language in the world, especially when it comes to the precise statement of laws. Since the Quran is a Statute Book, it was crucial that such laws must be clearly stated. God chose Arabic for His Final Testament because of the obvious reason that it is the most suitable language for that purpose. Arabic is unique in its efficiency and accuracy. For example, the word "they" in English does not tell you if "they" are males or females. In Arabic there is a "they" for the males, "HUM," and a "they" for the females, "HUNNA." There is even a "they" for two males, "HUMAA," and a "they" for two females, "HAATAAN." This feature does not exist in any other language in the world.

    I came to appreciate this efficiency of the Arabic language when I translated, for example, 2:228. This verse enjoins the divorcee to give up her own wishes to divorce her husband, if she discovers that she is pregnant, and the husband wishes to reconcile - the welfare of the child takes a priority. The efficiency of the Arabic language was extremely helpful in stating this law. Any other language would have made it almost impossible to point out whose wishes are to be superseded, at least not in such a few words as we see in 2:228.

    The word "Qaalataa" of 28:23, for example, translates into four English words: "the two women said." Such is the efficiency of the Arabic language.

    Another possible reason for choosing Arabic is the fact that "He" and "She" do not necessarily imply natural gender. Thus, when God is referred to as "He," this does not imply gender at all. God be glorified; He is neither male, nor female. The usage of "He" to refer to God in the English language, for example, has contributed to a false image of God. This was not helped by such distorted expressions as "Father" when referring to God. You never find such a reference to God in the Quran.

     


    In Quran 2:228, if a woman wants a divorce, & her husband is (say) abusive, going back to him if she's pregnant & he wants to reconcile will give priority to the kids' welfare? finmad

    If Arabic is such a clear, precise language-why is there such confusion over everything from wife beating, to divorcing pre menstrual wife\wives, verses teaching violence to even whether Allah has a literal chair? Huh?



    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
     Reply #1 - April 20, 2009, 12:16 AM

    I think the entire basis of his argument is faulty. I've never heard of any respectable linguist who said that Arabic is particularly more precise compared to any other language. Besides, if "sincere believers have access to the Quran, regardless of their mother tongue," and disbelievers the opposite, then it wouldn't matter what language the Quran is in, so why not stick with Hebrew or Aramaic, which apparently was the language of God before Arabic was developed?

    How does that whole "language of god" thing work, anyway? First he spoke Hebrew, then Aramaic, then Arabic? Maybe today the language of God is something more modern, like English or Chinese or LOLcat?

    Though it has no bridge,
    The cloud climbs up to heaven;
    It does not seek the aid
    Of Gautama's sutras.

    - Ikkyu
  • Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
     Reply #2 - April 20, 2009, 12:46 AM

    I think the entire basis of his argument is faulty. I've never heard of any respectable linguist who said that Arabic is particularly more precise compared to any other language. Besides, if "sincere believers have access to the Quran, regardless of their mother tongue," and disbelievers the opposite, then it wouldn't matter what language the Quran is in, so why not stick with Hebrew or Aramaic, which apparently was the language of God before Arabic was developed?

    How does that whole "language of god" thing work, anyway? First he spoke Hebrew, then Aramaic, then Arabic? Maybe today the language of God is something more modern, like English or Chinese or LOLcat?


    Many faiths associate a particular language with their idea of Divinity, eg the Zoroastrians associate Pahlavi, or the Jews Hebrew & Aramaic, but in case of Islam, it makes such grandoise claims for itself, its supposedly the Last time the Creator of our Universe spoke to all mankind, he dictated everything all humans needed to know, there'd be no further Prophets & Revelations, every convert to Islam is called a "revert" as we're all presumed to be born Muslims- you'd think that the Quran would be absolute clear & precise!

    Indeed the Quran itself claims to be all clear & precise. bunny

    "Behold, We have sent it down in all clarity, in the Arabic tongue, so that you might encompass it with your reason." [12:2]
    "Behold, We have made it a Qur'an in clear Arabic language that you may fully understand." [43:3]


    Sociolinguistic scholars  generally hold that all languages are equal:

    Quote from: Wikipedia Language Ideology
    While research in sociolinguistics generally holds that all languages are equal in their communicative and expressive abilities, language ideologies may privilege a given lect, language or even linguistic family above all others, claiming it to be intrinsically better for some or all purposes.


    Seems Allah, who's supposedly the Only Creator of our Universe, is an Arabic linguistic supremacist!  dance

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
     Reply #3 - April 20, 2009, 01:34 AM

    Maybe today the language of God is something more modern, like English or Chinese or LOLcat?


    THAT language would definitely make the "word of God" worth reading  Cheesy

    "when you've got thousands of hadith/sunnah and a book like the Qur'an where abrogation is propagated by some; anyone with a grudge and some time on their hands can find something to confirm what ever they wish"- Kaiwai
  • Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
     Reply #4 - April 20, 2009, 02:20 AM

    Maybe today the language of God is something more modern, like English or Chinese or LOLcat?


    THAT language would definitely make the "word of God" worth reading  Cheesy


    AlmostAisha, this is especially for you, LOL cats in the Quran, translating it into LOLspeak!

    Enjoy!  MSinghK

    P.S. Seriously, with all the talk of Arabic being a crystal clear language, & the Quran claiming to be clear, why is there so much confusion over whether wife beating is allowed or not, some say its clearly allowed, later English translators embarrassed by beat add "lightly" after it, some say beat means to separate or condemn, why?  Yep_True.

    Why is there confusion over whether 65.4 says pre menstrual child or not? Huh?

    If this is the best Allah can manage, in the clearest tongue, He seriously needs some language classes, & needs to get over his pride about His surah writing skills! rofl


    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
     Reply #5 - April 20, 2009, 04:04 AM

    I hear this all the time unfortunately.  It's astonishing to hear anyone, in this day and age, state plainly that their language is simply, and obviously head and shoulders above all the others in terms of eloquence and complexity.  It's a way for some people to claim their own group's superiority without explicitly sounding racist/ethnocentric.  Most do so unconsciously.

    For some reason, common cross-cultural sensitivities go out the window when it comes to language, and few people have any qualm about describing their language as "sophisticated" and "beautiful", while others are "simpler".  "Not bad" they say... just... "simpler"

    To my own shame, I used to harbor the same sentiments about English (my mom told me so when I was little).  That belief survived in latent form until my first linguistics prof thankfully demolished it. 

    In any case, the Arabic supremacists are free to revel in their own myth if it makes them feel more comfortable. 
  • Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
     Reply #6 - April 20, 2009, 05:31 AM

    Because Arabic is so goddamned CONFUSING  Huh? in all its  forms...its a difficult language to master (slang is relatively easy but classical Arabic is a bitch)...even Arabs have a tough time mastering their own classical Arabic.

    Its also just one more way for Arabs (the only true muslims on the planet  whistling2 )to throw back the fact that YOU...the nonArab...nonArabic speaker...will never truly understand the Quran, Gods Word, because you are not privy to the Divine Language...or some such horseshit  wacko

    If it was sooo clear and concise...why do we need different madhabs to explain it...why do we need hadith to explain it...why do we need context and extraQuranic sources to explain it?  Huh?

    Why cant the average Joe...or Mohammed  whistling2 , just open the the darn thing...read a page...and say Ahhhh! thats what God was talking about...I get it...high 5 me.  grin12
  • Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
     Reply #7 - April 20, 2009, 08:43 AM

    "Why Was the Quran Revealed in Arabic? "

    Because Allah is a hairy Arab.

    oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, this is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!"
  • Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
     Reply #8 - April 20, 2009, 08:59 AM

    Quote from: quran.org
    The word "Qaalataa" of 28:23, for example, translates into four English words: "the two women said." Such is the efficiency of the Arabic language. 

    "venturarum" in Latin means "of the women who have to arrive"

    7 words.

    Beat that, Arabic :S

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
     Reply #9 - April 20, 2009, 11:48 AM


    Why Was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?

    This site explains why! grin12

    Quote from: quran.org
    We learn from 41:44 that the sincere believers have access to the Quran, regardless of their mother tongue. The disbelievers, on the other hand, are not permitted access to the Quran, even if they are professors of the Arabic language (17:45, 18:57, 41:44, & 56:79).

    Wrong. The writer is a liar. Professors of Arabic have full access to the koran.

    Quote from: quran.org
    Arabic is the most efficient language in the world,

    Wrong. the writer is a liar. No study had been peer-reviewed to prove this.

    Quote from: quran.org
    especially when it comes to the precise statement of laws. Since the Quran is a Statute Book, it was crucial that such laws must be clearly stated. God chose Arabic for His Final Testament because of the obvious reason that it is the most suitable language for that purpose. Arabic is unique in its efficiency and accuracy.[/size][/size] For example, the word "they" in English does not tell you if "they" are males or females. In Arabic there is a "they" for the males, "HUM," and a "they" for the females, "HUNNA." There is even a "they" for two males, "HUMAA," and a "they" for two females, "HAATAAN." This feature does not exist in any other language in the world.

    Wrong. the writer is a liar. Other languages do possess this feature. French, Spanish, Italian, (japanese? to start.

    Quote from: quran.org
    I came to appreciate this efficiency of the Arabic language when I translated, for example, 2:228. This verse enjoins the divorcee to give up her own wishes to divorce her husband, if she discovers that she is pregnant, and the husband wishes to reconcile - the welfare of the child takes a priority. The efficiency of the Arabic language was extremely helpful in stating this law. Any other language would have made it almost impossible to point out whose wishes are to be superseded, at least not in such a few words as we see in 2:228.

    The writer is a liar. He already displayed his weakness of knowledge of other laws. And almos every language in the world today has law books, which in general are much more precise than the koran, specially in the area of picking (and, or, then, else).

    Quote from: quran.org
    The word "Qaalataa" of 28:23, for example, translates into four English words: "the two women said." Such is the efficiency of the Arabic language.

    Cherry picker. Also bias is demonstrated because it translates to "Two women said", Three words not Four as our friend the translator states.

    And most languages have a concept of adding pronouns, Arabic is nothing new. Any German speakers on the site? don't some German words translates to like half a dozen english words?

    Quote from: quran.org
    Another possible reason for choosing Arabic is the fact that "He" and "She" do not necessarily imply natural gender. Thus, when God is referred to as "He," this does not imply gender at all. God be glorified;

    So when Arabic can differentiate between male and female, then arabic is 'unique' and 'efficient.

    But when English can differentiate between objects and humans, then English fails to demonstrate the nature of god.

    Quote from: quran.org
    He is neither male, nor female. The usage of "He" to refer to God in the English language, for example, has contributed to a false image of God. This was not helped by such distorted expressions as "Father" when referring to God. You never find such a reference to God in the Quran.

     
    "He" is a sadistic megalomaniac narcissistic piece of shit that if it exists, should be hunted down and killed at all cost.

    In Quran 2:228, if a woman wants a divorce, & her husband is (say) abusive, going back to him if she's pregnant & he wants to reconcile will give priority to the kids' welfare? finmad

    If Arabic is such a clear, precise language-why is there such confusion over everything from wife beating, to divorcing pre menstrual wife\wives, verses teaching violence to even whether Allah has a literal chair? Huh?

    There is no confusion among arabic speakers. Those who read it, will fully understand the rights of a man, any man, over a woman, any woman.

    What you see as confusion, should be more referred to as resistance. The human mind resists such misogyny and will try to come up with alternate interpretations.

    And unfortunately, even though the text is far from being precise, by the standards of our 21st Century knowledge of law, the text is precise enough to prevent a good, modern interpretation from being correct. So there is no confusion. You want a good interpretation, you better have a pair of scissors and some white-out ready at hand.


    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
     Reply #10 - April 20, 2009, 11:57 AM

    Japanese is VERY interesting because a lot of words are differentiated not only by gender but also by social status of both the speaker and the listener.

    Beat that, Arabic! Tongue

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
     Reply #11 - April 20, 2009, 01:04 PM

    Quote from: quran.org
    especially when it comes to the precise statement of laws. Since the Quran is a Statute Book, it was crucial that such laws must be clearly stated. God chose Arabic for His Final Testament because of the obvious reason that it is the most suitable language for that purpose. Arabic is unique in its efficiency and accuracy.[/size][/size] For example, the word "they" in English does not tell you if "they" are males or females. In Arabic there is a "they" for the males, "HUM," and a "they" for the females, "HUNNA." There is even a "they" for two males, "HUMAA," and a "they" for two females, "HAATAAN." This feature does not exist in any other language in the world.

    Wrong. the writer is a liar. Other languages do possess this feature. French, Spanish, Italian, (japanese? to start.




    What is it in Spanish?
  • Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
     Reply #12 - April 20, 2009, 01:07 PM

    Quote from: quran.org
    especially when it comes to the precise statement of laws. Since the Quran is a Statute Book, it was crucial that such laws must be clearly stated. God chose Arabic for His Final Testament because of the obvious reason that it is the most suitable language for that purpose. Arabic is unique in its efficiency and accuracy.[/size][/size] For example, the word "they" in English does not tell you if "they" are males or females. In Arabic there is a "they" for the males, "HUM," and a "they" for the females, "HUNNA." There is even a "they" for two males, "HUMAA," and a "they" for two females, "HAATAAN." This feature does not exist in any other language in the world.

    Wrong. the writer is a liar. Other languages do possess this feature. French, Spanish, Italian, (japanese? to start.




    What is it in Spanish?


    I don't know, but in french its Ils and Elles.  Loads of languages have that feature, what a ridiculous claim to make. 

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
     Reply #13 - April 20, 2009, 01:21 PM

    In Italian, "they" can be translated into:

    loro = general "they" with no gender associated. it's the one most commonly used in modern speech
    essi = male "they", used also in male+female situations. it sounds a bit archaic
    esse = female only "they". it sounds a bit archaic

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
     Reply #14 - April 20, 2009, 01:59 PM

    A LOT of languages have constructions which can carry a variety of different meanings. Using those words in ambiguous or clever ways can make things deeper than normal, and pack more meaning into phrases than ordinary speech. Take 'bayt' meaning house in Arabic. It comes from a root word meaning somewhere to spend the night. Accordingly, you can use it to refer to events in the night, the actual domicile where you spend the night and, by extension, the people who reside there with you - your family.

    This, I must stress, isn't exclusive to Arabic!

    Even back when I followed Islam I didn't Arabic any special preference. I simply argued that since the revelations came to Arabs it came in Arabic. Had Muhammad been French they would have come in French.

    Even back then I used to scorn those who thought of Arabic as god's language. So god chose a special language that doesn't have a G or a P sound in it?

    "At 8:47 I do a grenade jump off a ladder."
  • Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
     Reply #15 - April 20, 2009, 02:11 PM



    I don't know, but in french its Ils and Elles.  Loads of languages have that feature, what a ridiculous claim to make. 


    That's third person plural (a gender-ized version of 'they').  What the person is referring to is how Arabic distinguishes between one person, a pair of people and a group larger than that.  Most other languages simply distinguish between singular or plural, with no attention to a pair of people.   


    In any case, I don't know if there there's any other language on the planet that has that or not, but it's hardly a signal that it's the pinnacle of linguistic evolution.  There are plenty of useful features that Arabic doesn't have...

    In the end, pretty much any language can get any point across you like.... whether or not it does so 'poetically' or whatever is entirely subjective.
  • Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
     Reply #16 - April 20, 2009, 02:18 PM

    That's third person plural (a gender-ized version of 'they').  What the person is referring to is how Arabic distinguishes between one person, a pair of people and a group larger than that.  Most other languages simply distinguish between singular or plural, with no attention to a pair of people.   


    In any case, I don't know if there there's any other language on the planet that has that or not, but it's hardly a signal that it's the pinnacle of linguistic evolution.  There are plenty of useful features that Arabic doesn't have...

    In the end, pretty much any language can get any point across you like.... whether or not it does so 'poetically' or whatever is entirely subjective.

    In Japanese the numerals are mixed with nouns.
    For example in Japanese there is a word for "one person" (hitori), a word for "two people" (futari), "three people" (sannin), "four people" (yonin) and so on...

    Same for days, nights, years, animals, floors, etc...

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
     Reply #17 - April 20, 2009, 02:32 PM

    That's third person plural (a gender-ized version of 'they').  What the person is referring to is how Arabic distinguishes between one person, a pair of people and a group larger than that.  Most other languages simply distinguish between singular or plural, with no attention to a pair of people.   


    In any case, I don't know if there there's any other language on the planet that has that or not, but it's hardly a signal that it's the pinnacle of linguistic evolution.  There are plenty of useful features that Arabic doesn't have...

    In the end, pretty much any language can get any point across you like.... whether or not it does so 'poetically' or whatever is entirely subjective.

    In Japanese the numerals are mixed with nouns.
    For example in Japanese there is a word for "one person" (hitori), a word for "two people" (futari), "three people" (sannin), "four people" (yonin) and so on...

    Same for days, nights, years, animals, floors, etc...


    Nice.  Maybe the Arch Angel Gabriel had his map upside down and was really trying to go to Japan...   
  • Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
     Reply #18 - April 20, 2009, 02:48 PM

    Yeah. I remember the most awesome Japanese game called Ico (a name, pronounced E?co) coming out. When they spoke about a sequel to it they gave it the working title of Nico, which is Ico with the word for 'two' attached to it.

    "At 8:47 I do a grenade jump off a ladder."
  • Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
     Reply #19 - April 20, 2009, 05:08 PM

    Maybe today the language of God is something more modern, like English or Chinese or LOLcat?


    THAT language would definitely make the "word of God" worth reading  Cheesy


    Here's the christian bible in lolcat.


  • Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
     Reply #20 - April 20, 2009, 06:18 PM

    What I could never understand is the issue with translation.

     I've been told so many times that it can only be understood in arabic. If something sounds wrong, strange, barbaric or whatever, its because I dont understand arabic. Even all prayers and such need to be done in arabic, as translation will destroy the meaning.

    I never got that. Language is simply a way of conveying thoughts with words.
    If you say "La ilaha il Allah, Muhammad-ur-Rasool-Allah" it is no different than if you say "Nothing exists that has the right to be worshipped except Allah, and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah". They both convey the exact same sentiment.
    It simply doesnt make sense to say it must be said in arabic or else it would change the meaning. Thats not possible. If you understand the meaning of what you are translating you can translate anything into anything.
    And with something like a prayer, it is even more stange, as it is entirely the sentiment that matters (or to put it another way, Its the thought that counts).   

    What I find bothersome about this argument about the quran is that, why is it the only book that cant be translated? You can translate Dostoyevsky into english, and it is still a amazing literature.
    I've read many great classical Arabic and Persian poems that retain their meaning perfectly and their poetic beauty.
    I mean, khalil gibran or Arabian Nights sounds great and is easy to understand in english. They can even translate things like The Instruction of Ptahhotep ( http://www.humanistictexts.org/ptahhotep.htm ) and that is over 4000 years old in a long dead language.

    So I guess that has always bothered me.
     
    I did come across something once, it is from Wikipida, so I take it for what its worth, but :

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_and_development_of_the_Qur%27an#Sceptical_scholars

    There is a quote from a scholar of arabic named Gerd R. Puin who studied the Sana'a Qur'an in Yemen:

        "My idea is that the Koran is a kind of cocktail of texts that were not all understood even at the time of Muhammad. Many of them may even be a hundred years older than Islam itself. Even within the Islamic traditions there is a huge body of contradictory information, including a significant Christian substrate; one can derive a whole Islamic anti-history from them if one wants. The Qur?an claims for itself that it is ?mubeen,? or clear, but if you look at it, you will notice that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn?t make sense. Many Muslims will tell you otherwise, of course, but the fact is that a fifth of the Qur?anic text is just incomprehensible. This is what has caused the traditional anxiety regarding translation. If the Qur?an is not comprehensible, if it can?t even be understood in Arabic, then it?s not translatable into any language. That is why Muslims are afraid. Since the Qur?an claims repeatedly to be clear but is not?there is an obvious and serious contradiction. Something else must be going on.?


    I dont speak arabic, so I honestly cant judge that for myself, but I would be curious about the validity of his theory.
    Because, as I said, the only thing that can negatively effect translation, is confusion over meaning or not being able to understand or comprehend the meaning of what you are translating.


    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
     Reply #21 - April 20, 2009, 06:55 PM

    I found some interesting information about the context in which the Qur'an was revealed on this site.

    http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/islam.html

    {quote] The Quran was written by at least two people. The Quran is divided into two periods, the revelations in Mecca and the revelations in exile, in Medina. The Meccan revelations are peaceful. The Medina revelations are not. The former sounds like a paraphrase of the Christian literature of Syria (not surprising given the similarities between the Syriac script and the early Arabic script). The latter sounds like a manual of war. One wonders whether it is possible that the Quran is nothing but the combination of a book written or inspired by the Christians of Syria and a book written by the Umayyads to justify their imperialist campaign (with possibly an interpolation of a book written by the Jews od Medina to justify their attack on the Arabs of Mecca).

    Thus the suspicions that Islam was hijacked at the very beginning, and that one billion Muslims are praying to a god that their prophet Mohammed wanted to destroy.
    After all, Jesus' words were manipulated by the Catholic Church (and still are manipulated by countless Christian priests) to justify all sorts of political schemes. The same fate may have happened to the founder of Islam, who lived in a much more primitive society (i.e., easier to manipulate) than Rome. [/quote]

    I don't know how true it is, but it seems like an interesting site to start researching the subject from.
  • Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
     Reply #22 - April 20, 2009, 07:07 PM




    I dont speak arabic, so I honestly cant judge that for myself, but I would be curious about the validity of his theory.
    Because, as I said, the only thing that can negatively effect translation, is confusion over meaning or not being able to understand or comprehend the meaning of what you are translating.




    Totally.  When discussing things like wife beating, invariably the argument comes up that one must understand the original Arabic... because the word 'daraba' has so many subtle meanings.  My question then is: if it's so prone to alternate interpretations, wouldn't that be the worst possible word to choose if you're trying to be clear about something?  

    If they mean 'tap lightly' or 'admonish' - why not just say so?  Why choose a word that can also mean 'strike'?  It seems easy enough to be clear about it in English.  But when one brings up this seemingly obvious point, they're typically met with an angry response claiming "you just don't understand the beautiful nuanced nature of Arabic"

    What's more likely is what you described, or simply that the meaning in Arabic is clear, it just doesn't sit well with the person's own moral compass.
  • Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
     Reply #23 - April 20, 2009, 10:55 PM

    I found some interesting information about the context in which the Qur'an was revealed on this site.

    http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/islam.html

    Quote from: Goldie's link
    The Quran was written by at least two people. The Quran is divided into two periods, the revelations in Mecca and the revelations in exile, in Medina. The Meccan revelations are peaceful. The Medina revelations are not. The former sounds like a paraphrase of the Christian literature of Syria (not surprising given the similarities between the Syriac script and the early Arabic script). The latter sounds like a manual of war. One wonders whether it is possible that the Quran is nothing but the combination of a book written or inspired by the Christians of Syria and a book written by the Umayyads to justify their imperialist campaign (with possibly an interpolation of a book written by the Jews od Medina to justify their attack on the Arabs of Mecca).

     


    Great link Goldie!  Afro

    But why would the Jews of Medina suddenly attack the Arabs of Mecca, when they had co existed so peacefully for centuries? For instance, Jewish halacha holds that the child of a Jewish mother is a Jew, & Meccan Arabs respected this belief, thats' why the Jewish leader Kaab ibn al Ashraf's mother was a Jew, father a Muslim & he was raised a Jew. Thats; why we see both Jews & Meccan pagans opposed to this new religion of Islam, pagans as it later forcibly converted them by smashing their gods, & Jews as it enforced restrictions like the jizya tax on them.

    As even this article points out-pre Islamic Mecca was extremely religiously tolerant, besides respecting the halacha, conversions to Christianity was clearly allowed, thats' how Khadija's cousin Waraqa ibn Nawfal & Muhammad's cousin Ubaydallah ibn Jahsh had become Christians' without any persecution.

    Something happened with Islam that changed all this-maybe Muhammad, maybe ambitious & intolerant Arabs.
    Islam cleared the peninsula of all other faiths, a legacy which endures till this day as no other place of worship except mosques are allowed in Saudi.

    Thus the suspicions that Islam was hijacked at the very beginning, and that one billion Muslims are praying to a god that their prophet Mohammed wanted to destroy.
    After all, Jesus' words were manipulated by the Catholic Church (and still are manipulated by countless Christian priests) to justify all sorts of political schemes. The same fate may have happened to the founder of Islam, who lived in a much more primitive society (i.e., easier to manipulate) than Rome.



    Well, Jesus words' might've been manipulated, but the way his character is portrayed remains largely benign, as for eg does the Buddha's character-we don't see them annihilating an entire Jewish(or any other faith) tribe, or forcibly converting people by smashing their idols.

    If Prophet Muhammad's words & deeds have been manipulated, then it really makes little sense to hold onto this "manipulated" faith, as it exists currently. After all, we certainly won't meet either Jesus or Muhammad, we have to rely on the way they've been portrayed, its impossible to travel back to their time in a time machine & check out for ourselves. dance

    Jesus did little we would consider unpalatable in todays' world, Muhammad has been called an insaan i kamil, the role model for all times, but he doesn't quite seem to merit that title.

    For one thing, even the Meccan surahs, while not preaching physical violence, uses language we would consider hate speech against various religions today, calling non believers in Islam the worst creatures.

    ?Those who disbelieve, among the People of the Book (Christians & Jews) and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein for ever. They are the worst of creatures.? (98.6)

    Then again the Quran itself contains the doctrine of abrogation, to help resolve the apparent contradiction between relatively peaceful Mecca surahs & belligerent Medina ones, & the doctrine gives primacy to the Medina surahs.

    "None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah hath power over all things?" (Qur'an 2:106)

    "When We substitute one revelation for another, ? and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages), ? they say, ?Thou art but a forger?: but most of them understand not." (Qur'an 16:101)

    Thus all the peace in the Meccan surahs seem to be abrogated by the Medina surahs, & by Prophet Muhammad's conduct.

    For instance, we read in Surah 9.5, "Then when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolators wherever ye find them, seige them, beseige them & lie in ambush for them everywhere, but if they repent, take to prayer & render the alms levy, allow them to go their way.God is forgiving & merciful."

    This is exactly how Muhammad behaved, according to Islamic sources, he marched into Mecca, smashed the polytheists idols, threatening to kill anyone who came out to protect their idols & them converted them to Islam.

    Thus they're allowed to go only if they convert to Islam, the Catholic Church might've manipulated Jesus words, but they never portray him smashing others' idols, & forcibly converting people.

    We'll never meet the historical Buddha, Jesus or Muhammad, but Muhammad's portrayal isn't very impressive or conducive to religious tolerance.



    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
     Reply #24 - April 21, 2009, 12:20 AM

    Hello, Rashna

    The question "Why was the qur'aan Revealed in Arabic?" is a very good question and I would like to add my answer. However, I must make it clear that I will not entertain any responses in this thread because I am concentrating on my topic "The Paralysis Of The Kafir Mind".

    Moses was a Hebrew, so God had to talk to him in Hebrew. Jesus spoke mainly Aramaic but God did not speak to him at all.
    Jesus could have spoken Hebrew and some market Greek known as Koine Greek but that does not matter as he did not leave any Scripture. Moses and Muhammad did.

    Muhammad was an Arab, so it was natural that the Qur'aan was given in Arabic. It was no point if Qur'aan was given in Greek or Hebrew as nobody would have understood. English had not evolved, so the question of English also does not arise.

    What was the main reason that Qur'aan was given in Arabic? Here is the answer for your knowledge and reading pleasure.

    The Old Testament was not given to Moses at all. Only a tiny part containing the Law was given to Moses. Simple messages were not understood and the language gave rise to silly confusions.

    Some examples:
    Quote
    2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

    And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning?the second day.

     

    There are hundreds of such examples and you can see how silly they could get. However, fortunately the Jews were never taught that there was a Holy Spirit of God beside God.

    Tragedy struck! And this happened when Ptolemy hired 70-72 translators to come up with a translation in Greek, which became known as the Septuagint or LXX-LXXII but the Jews never accepted it as the Jewish Tanakh because it was a very poor translation, full of errors and confusions.

    The Rabbis and High Priests were leaving aside the original Scripture given to Moses and came up with their Oral Teachings. The Hebrew Scripture was side-lined. Came in the man Jesus and tried his best to reform but his own language was very confusing. Instead of speaking in simple and plain language, he started arguing with the Jews and spoke in parables to humiliate them. He did that deliberately. He is on record for doing that and I hope you are aware that his own fishermen, who were supposed to be "fishers of men", could not understand a word and he had to explain to them in private.

    By the way, Jesus and the Jews of their time were the first to introduce polemics as both were trying to score. Jesus was the best in Tu Quoque, while others were good at Straw Man, Circular Reasons, Red Herrings, etc. All that happened because of the language of the Scripture given.

    His language was not understood and this created hell of a confusion. I hope you have read lines such as "I in my father, my father in me, people in me and all of us in the father." Then you can read the doubting Thomas' silly statement,"My Lord! My God!" which was turned into "My Lord and my God!"

    You can read all the silly stuff in the gospels and realise how badly the two languages were ruined by the Greek. It went so bad that the Christian 'big-time" scholars used a simple message "Let us go down...." and "Let us make man ......." to show and prove that God was not one. This confusion led to the abomination known as Trinity, which even quite a lot of Christians do not believe to be true.

    It was time to close the case, cut off the Greek and deliver a Scripture in a language, which did not need at all to be translated and taught in Greek. That Scripture, Qur'aan, made it absolutely clear that there is only One God Almighty.

    Hence, the Qur'aan was given in Arabic, so that it could truly remain in Arabic for ever. Hope this helped.

    BMZ
  • Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
     Reply #25 - April 21, 2009, 12:26 AM

     thnkyu for your explanation BMZ, we have our differences, & its exhausting to go over them again, but this explanation was truly nice.  Smiley

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
     Reply #26 - April 21, 2009, 12:45 AM

    thnkyu for your explanation BMZ, we have our differences, & its exhausting to go over them again, but this explanation was truly nice.  Smiley


    And thank you too for the compliment. Have a good day too.

    BMZ
  • Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
     Reply #27 - April 21, 2009, 12:52 AM

    Im curious...did the Arabs of Mohammeds time actually speak that from of arabic the Quran is written in...the Quran is confusing...did the people of Mohammeds time have a hard time communicating and getting points across because single arabic words can have so many different meanings?  Huh? And if they were backwards and illiterate etc...how did they manage to come up with such a "superior and poetic" language that is hard to understand and interpret unless your Arab?  Huh?
  • Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
     Reply #28 - April 21, 2009, 03:38 AM

    Quote from: BMZ
    Moses was a Hebrew, so God had to talk to him in Hebrew. Jesus spoke mainly Aramaic but God did not speak to him at all.

    How do you know? Did Allah explain all this to you?

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Why was the Quran Revealed in Arabic?
     Reply #29 - April 21, 2009, 05:06 AM

    Quote from: BMZ
    Moses was a Hebrew, so God had to talk to him in Hebrew. Jesus spoke mainly Aramaic but God did not speak to him at all.

    How do you know? Did Allah explain all this to you?


    No, my Jewish friends told me.  Cheesy Are you taking part in the discussion on "The Paralysis of the Kafir Mind"?

    I have clicked "Unignore" for you. How old are you Zaephon?

    BMZ
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