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 Topic: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan

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  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #30 - April 13, 2009, 09:59 AM

    And once again BMZ does a stunning job of missing the point in his latest "rebuttal". He still doesn't get the most obvious thing that SNB has been trying to get him to acknowledge: that the self defence argument is irrelevant to the question of coercion in matters of religion. It's astonishing to watch.

    This is without even beginning to tackle the misrepresentation about "slaughter" of Muslims by the Meccans. What a load of bollocks.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #31 - April 13, 2009, 12:58 PM

    Oh, and I've just read SNB's latest. I'd say BMZ is getting his arse kicked with steel-capped boots. I expect BMZ's next post will contain many smileys, some huffiness, and not much of any substance.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #32 - April 13, 2009, 01:03 PM

    Yes, I thought it was one of his better ones - he took the critcal arguments against him head on.  For me the self-defense argument is under water now

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  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #33 - April 13, 2009, 02:06 PM

    Where is Bob? I would like to see his opinion too Smiley

    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #34 - April 13, 2009, 04:41 PM

    Oh, and I've just read SNB's latest. I'd say BMZ is getting his arse kicked with steel-capped boots. I expect BMZ's next post will contain many smileys, some huffiness, and not much of any substance.

    Exactly. I'm glad a real contradiction is being discussed right now. The previous contradiction was too trivial in my opinion.

    Quote from: BMZ
    Oh! What a terrible waste of the internet bandwidth, skynightblaze! There was no need to rush up this sort of illogical and evasive response. Are you seriously debating

    Typical head-buried-in-sand reply. I think BMZ is trying to describe his latest reply to Skynight with these words. ROFL.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #35 - April 13, 2009, 05:18 PM

    ____________________

    SNB rightly asks some questions on the source BMZ uses to argue there was a specific context for certain verses. And see what BMZ has to say in answer:

    Quote
    BMZ


    But I have yet to come across such an approved source in Islam. Or was it approved in the debate that BMZ can use 'BMZ' as source?

    For all that happened in Muhammad's life (As BMZ brought in his earlier post) BMZ has no source other than 'BMZ'. He says his thoughts are his source..! Amazing indeed. Are witnessing to the dawn of a new prophet called 'BMZ' in Islam?


    Regards
    KF
  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #36 - April 13, 2009, 05:23 PM

    Looks like its time to cast your votes.  Did BMZ justify 2.29 in the end as I cant see it..

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  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #37 - April 13, 2009, 05:26 PM

    Are witnessing to the dawn of a new prophet called 'BMZ' in Islam?

    When using his name, please put the letters (pbuh) after it

    Thanks

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  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #38 - April 13, 2009, 05:27 PM

    BMZ (pbuh) didn't reconcile the contradiction, so I give that round to SNB. 

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #39 - April 13, 2009, 05:38 PM

    Unless BMZ(pbuh) comes up with a logical response to SNB, which is extremely unlikely given the sheer magnitude of the contradiction, I think the winner of this debate is clear.

    Will you guys continue, or do I get to argue against BMZ's Holohoax theory now?

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #40 - April 13, 2009, 05:57 PM

    I've re-read the thread again, to cut a long story short, Quran is saying there is no compulsion in Islam, yet the Quran is forcing Islam on those defeated in the war (and presumably those not fighting who belong to the same village!) - SNBs round by quite a margin.


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  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #41 - April 13, 2009, 06:43 PM

    The previous contradiction was too trivial in my opinion.


    Dear Zaephon, that was NOT a contradiction; that was an error. I pointed this out to Bob earlier; may be you missed that post of mine.

    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #42 - April 13, 2009, 06:46 PM

    Dear Zaephon, that was NOT a contradiction; that was an error. I pointed this out to Bob earlier; may be you missed that post of mine.

    Alright, sorry.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #43 - April 13, 2009, 07:01 PM

    Yippee!

    Skynightblaze wins IMO, & everyone else's opinions too!     yay yay yay

    Unless BMZ(pbuh) comes up with a logical response to SNB, which is extremely unlikely given the sheer magnitude of the contradiction, I think the winner of this debate is clear.

    Will you guys continue, or do I get to argue against BMZ's Holohoax theory now?


    Onto Holohoax now, & Zaephon can take on BMZ(pbuh) again!

    Onward COEM Soldiers!  hahaha

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #44 - April 13, 2009, 09:22 PM

    Definitely SNB's point. By a landslide.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #45 - April 15, 2009, 08:44 PM

    Mmmm, I think BMZ has a good point.

    The whole:
    "And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah. But if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression."
    If we ignore any historical context it COULD be read to mean that you are allowed to fight oppression until you think "justice and faith in Allah prevails"... which does not necessarily imply that any other faith must be brought to its knees: one could interpret it as "faith and justice prevail in your home/heart when you are allowed to worship Allah undisturbed".

    The weak point is that by using a Quran-only approach you also have NO context to determine what constitutes "tumult and oppression". Killing Muslims? Talking bad about Allah or the Prophet? Making jokes about them?

    Another weak point is that such a commandment seems a little useless: "Thou shalt fight your oppressors!" - "Oh, thank you Allah, we would have never thought that up ourselves, it was totally not in our agenda! :S"

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #46 - April 15, 2009, 08:51 PM

    Basically, BMZ says that, if you ignore any historical context, 2:193 can be read in a non-oppressive way, and thus is not in contradiction with 2:256.

    While SNB says that it can be read in an oppressive way, and thus is in contradiction with 2:256.

    Burden of proof should be on SNB, because we cannot logically assume that something is contradiction a priori until proven otherwise.

    And since they agreed beforehand to ignore historical context... there is no IMPLICIT contradiction, since it depends on subjective interpretation.

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #47 - April 15, 2009, 08:53 PM

    Hmm. Within a narrow context, perhaps. The only problem is that there are plenty of other verses that make it pretty clear what was intended. Then you have the tafseer, which go into a lot more detail. BMZ can claim to reject tafseer but really, when you think about it, what he is trying to do is write his own tafseer. Wink

    Then of course he makes all sorts of claims about context and the conditions prevailing at the time, but the only source for those claims are the ahadith he wants to reject. On top of that, some of his claims cannot even be backed by the ahadith. The evidence of "persecution and slaughter" of early Muslims by the polytheist Meccans is non-existent as far as I know.

    If anything they were far more religiously tolerant than Mohammed was and their sole objection to him appears to have been that he wouldn't let other people have freedom of religion. 

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #48 - April 15, 2009, 08:59 PM

    Hmm. Within a narrow context, perhaps. The only problem is that there are plenty of other verses that make it pretty clear what was intended. Then you have the tafseer, which go into a lot more detail. BMZ can claim to reject tafseer but really, when you think about it, what he is trying to do is write his own tafseer. Wink

    Then of course he makes all sorts of claims about context and the conditions prevailing at the time, but the only source for those claims are the ahadith he wants to reject. On top of that, some of his claims cannot even be backed by the ahadith. The evidence of "persecution and slaughter" of early Muslims by the polytheist Meccans is non-existent as far as I know.

    If anything they were far more religiously tolerant than Mohammed was and their sole objection to him appears to have been that he wouldn't let other people have freedom of religion. 

    Yeah, i was simply analyzing those two verses out of any context because that is what SNB brought up.

    So, if 3 million years in the future, some alien race manages to read the Quran with NO idea of human history, they COULD interpret that verse in a defensive-only way.

    SNB should have brought forth other verses or some other argument, IMO

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #49 - April 15, 2009, 09:06 PM

    Fair point I suppose, although IMO the line about faith in Allah prevailing does imply coercion in matters of religion even if it doesn't blatantly command it. If there was no coercion involved a simple exhortation to fight until all people were free to worship according to their beliefs would have done the trick. 

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #50 - April 15, 2009, 09:11 PM

    Fair point I suppose, although IMO the line about faith in Allah prevailing does imply coercion in matters of religion even if it doesn't blatantly command it. If there was no coercion involved a simple exhortation to fight until all people were free to worship according to their beliefs would have done the trick. 

    It could still be interpreted in a defensive-only way, as follow:

    When your home/life is attacked by people who want to prevent you from worshiping Allah, fight them until justice and faith in Allah prevail in your home/life.

    That's the power of vagueness Cheesy

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #51 - April 17, 2009, 10:16 PM

    It could still be interpreted in a defensive-only way, as follow:

    When your home/life is attacked by people who want to prevent you from worshiping Allah, fight them until justice and faith in Allah prevail in your home/life.


    Not anymore

    2:193 (Y. Ali) And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah. but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

    Here's a more specific clarification of the same thing from 8:39 as we all know, the Quran likes to repeat itself often. Notice the words in bold

    8:39 (Y. Ali) And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.

    So 2:193 accidentally left out further clarification but that's ok because 8:39 handled that as what often happejns in the Quran.

    So there it is, plain as day.

  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #52 - April 17, 2009, 10:17 PM

    Fair point I suppose, although IMO the line about faith in Allah prevailing does imply coercion in matters of religion even if it doesn't blatantly command it. If there was no coercion involved a simple exhortation to fight until all people were free to worship according to their beliefs would have done the trick. 


    8:39 (Y. Ali) And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.

  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #53 - April 21, 2009, 01:59 PM

    OK I'm back from vacation.

    Firstly, it may help SNB to read BMZ's debates on Islam Online with Taliban types about compulsion. There are some entertaining bits.

    Nosrul sums up The fundamentalist position on BMZ's no compulsion stance:

    Quote
    "You sound like a heretic to me!


    What is your religion BMZ? Are you a Qadiani? In case you do not know, Qadiani?s are kaafirs! 


    If you say you are not a Qadiani then, judging from your posts, you must be a heretic! Allah the Exalted has clearly identified your kind in the Holy Qur?an. Read Verse 3:7. "

    "

     
    http://www.islamonline.net/discussione/thread.jspa?messageID=28478&#28478

    More fun with BMZ and Nosrul talking about compulsion.


    Quote
    ""Truly BMZ, you do not understand Holy Quran and Islam. Even I explain to you with all the Verses of the Holy Quran you will still disbelieve and reject. This is because you have gone astray and satan has overtaken you! Beg Allah with the Duaa in Verses 3:8-9. Who knows He may forgive your treacheries against His religion and show you His Mercy as Allah is the Most Merciful of those who show mercy."

    "


    http://www.islamonline.net/discussione/thread.jspa?messageID=31241&#31241

    Now as far as this debate. I will give a not so well earned point to SNB for this one. He spent way too much time getting distracted by personal attacks.




    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #54 - April 21, 2009, 02:32 PM

    Fair point I suppose, although IMO the line about faith in Allah prevailing does imply coercion in matters of religion even if it doesn't blatantly command it. If there was no coercion involved a simple exhortation to fight until all people were free to worship according to their beliefs would have done the trick. 

    It could still be interpreted in a defensive-only way, as follow:

    When your home/life is attacked by people who want to prevent you from worshiping Allah, fight them until justice and faith in Allah prevail in your home/life.

    That's the power of vagueness Cheesy



    HE never brought that point. HE simply kept saying we force the other person in self defense. That is pure nonsense. It doesnt make sense. More ever I repeatedly asked him what does the phrase " Fight them until faith in Allah prevails" meant and he never answered that . He never  brought up the point that you are making it  could mean fighting  to preserve your faith.If he had done that I would have refuted him.

    This argument can be easily refuted using 8:39 just as muhhamad Bin Lyin has explained .8:39 echoes the same situation and says fight till there is faith everywhere which should be sufficient to demolish this claim. More ever you forgot that I had brought up 9:29 too. It is a clear indication of force. There is no way he was getting out of this huge contradiction.
  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #55 - April 21, 2009, 07:53 PM

    Like I said, I simply considered the scope of 2:193 vs 2:256 only.

    And, well, I admit he was not clear at all, but I noticed evasive rhetoric is his style, hence I supposed he thought that the non-contradiction was in what I explained above.

    Just like in the "not-(yet)-menstruated thread" he is not being clear at all in what he means, so I inferred he was thinking about adult women that, for some pathological rare reason, have not yet menstruated... or something. He's just avoiding having to explain because pinpointing his belief would lead to potential ways of proving him wrong.

    So, I think you should just focus more in dispelling his vague rhetoric first, otherwise, if he keeps staying vague, there is most often a logical way to see a non-contradiction in the various possible interpretations of whatever religious stuff is being quoted.

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #56 - April 21, 2009, 08:02 PM

    He's just avoiding having to explain because pinpointing his belief would lead to potential ways of proving him wrong.

    So, I think you should just focus more in dispelling his vague rhetoric first, otherwise, if he keeps staying vague, there is most often a logical way to see a non-contradiction in the various possible interpretations of whatever religious stuff is being quoted.

    Absolutely. It's all smoke and mirrors.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #57 - May 10, 2009, 10:23 AM



    Skynightblaze's argument that there is a contradiction between verses 2.256 and 2.193 (and osmanthus' support of this position in his interjectory post) is fully based on the interpretation that the Godly command for Muslims to fight their oppressors until "there prevail justice and faith in Allah" means to fight them until they (the oppressors) accept faith in Allah, or Islam.

    The skewed interpretation of verses in the Holy Quran and the pursuant deduction of false hypotheses (in this case the existence of contradiction) is a common theme among those who wish to find support for their subjective views. It is an intellectual sin committed by extremists like Al Qaeda and rejectionists like most of the folks in this Council.                                         

    Let's take a closer look at the quoted verse 2.193:

    And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah. but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression. 

    For starters, the verse is mistranslated. Skynightblaze conveniently quoted Yusuf Ali's mistranslation of the arabic word 'deen' to mean 'faith', while it actually means 'religion' (as known to those who speak both languages and as is correctly translated by the other common English translators Pickthal, Sarwar and Shakir among others). Faith is English for Eeman, which is not the word in the verse.

    What the verse actually translates to, word for word is:
    And fight them until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and the religion be for Allah. but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression. 

    If you wish, we can interpret the meaning of "and the religion be for Allah" to be "and Allah's religion prevail". So we have:
    And fight them until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and Allah's religion prevail. but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression. 

    How is the word 'religion' different from 'faith'? While a person's Faith usually refers to a particular formal doctrine (Islam, Judaism, etc), the term religion particularly in the Arabic language, means Outlook, Paradigm, or Way, without necessarily implying any particular Faith. This distinction is demonstrated in verses 109:001-006 of the Holy Quran:
    "Say: "O disbelievers!
    I do not worship what you worship,
    Nor do you worship what I worship. ...
    Unto you your religion (way), and unto me my religion (way)." 109:001 - 006


    So what is 'Allah's religion' or Way that we are ordered to fight the oppressors until it prevail? This Way is explained in the verses preceding 2.193 and in verse 2.256, which rather than being contradictory to verse 2.193 as Skynightblaze wrongly claims actually compliments and explains it:
    Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

    The order is hence to fight the oppressors until Allah's Way of non-compulsion and Free Choice prevail and people may freely choose their faiths, whatever they may be. This is further confirmed by the second half of 2.193 which commands that hostility be used only against those who oppress others (by robbing them of their right to choose).

    This is quite the opposite of the false claim that God orders the forcing of people to change their faiths! This claim not only contradicts the straightforward linguistic interpretation of the verses, it is also a flagrant denial of the true history of Islamic warfare. Throughout their history, Muslims never forcefully converted their adversaries, but rather spread the freedom of faith where previously it did not exist (e.g. in Egypt where the occupying Romans had persecuted the Egyptian Copts, and Muslims liberated them from this oppression). The thriving non-Muslim minorities all over the Muslim world are irrefutable evidence of Islam's sanctification of the right not only to choose, but to practice and to differ.

    The animosity of Muslims to non-Muslims is reserved for those who oppress them:

    "Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of your religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity.

    It is only as regards those who fought against you on account of your religion, and have driven you out of your homes, and helped to drive you out, that Allah forbids you to befriend them. And whosoever will befriend them, then such are the Zalimun (wrong-doers those who disobey Allah)." 060:008-9


    An animosity that ceases to exist as soon as it's causes cease, as explained in 2.193. Any other claim is false and usually an attempt by its propagator to twist the meanings of verses and quote them out of context.
     
    While the objective reader often stands in awe at how such straightforward and clear meanings can be so overlooked in order to support a flawed understanding, one can only reflect on the Almighty's accurate description of the scene:

    "It is God who has revealed the Book to you in which some verses are clear statements (which accept no interpretation) and these are the fundamental ideas of the Book, while other verses may have several possibilities. Those whose hearts are perverse, follow the unclear statements in pursuit of their own mischievous goals by interpreting them in a way that will suit their own purpose. No one knows its true interpretations except God and those who have a firm grounding in knowledge. They say, "We believe in it. All its verses are from our Lord." No one can grasp this fact except the people of reason." 003:007

    For the people of reason, observing how people that have been gifted with intelligence (like some of the participants in this forum) can skip reason in favor of a devious interpretation is evidence of the existence of a greater evil swaying their judgements. It reminds me of the film "The Exorcist" where a priest losing his faith in God regains it through observing firsthand the existence of evil. Maybe good will come out of it, and some objective observer of this panel will regain a shaken faith by seeing how weak the arguments presented against the Way of God are.

    There are no contradictions in the Holy Quran, nor anything in Islam that clashes with the pure intellect or uncontaminated self.

    "In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
    All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.
    The Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
    Master of the Day of Judgment,
    You alone we worship; You alone we ask for help.
    Guide us on the straight path,
    the path of those whom You blessed; not of those who have deserved wrath, nor of the strayers."

    001:001-7


  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #58 - May 10, 2009, 12:13 PM





    For the people of reason, observing how people that have been gifted with intelligence (like some of the participants in this forum) can skip reason in favor of a devious interpretation is evidence of the existence of a greater evil swaying their judgements. It reminds me of the film "The Exorcist" where a priest losing his faith in God regains it through observing firsthand the existence of evil. Maybe good will come out of it, and some objective observer of this panel will regain a shaken faith by seeing how weak the arguments presented against the Way of God are.

    There are no contradictions in the Holy Quran, nor anything in Islam that clashes with the pure intellect or uncontaminated self.



     icon_blahblah icon_blahblah

    Yeah, whatever

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  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #59 - May 10, 2009, 01:07 PM

    Ali I will soon reply you.Your post shows you have no understanding of your scripture.
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