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 Topic: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan

 (Read 19682 times)
  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     OP - April 09, 2009, 07:23 AM

     parrot  Have a parrot.  parrot

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #1 - April 10, 2009, 03:45 PM

    Looks like SB is off to a good start this time on the kill, or not to kill, the infidel question.. 

    Its one that interests me as it will brush on the perennial salafi vs apologist debate, and whether Islam is an moderate or extremist religion.

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  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #2 - April 10, 2009, 04:53 PM

    Yes, this is definitely a meatier topic than the size of Allah's arsch.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #3 - April 10, 2009, 05:20 PM

    No wonder there are too many black holes in the heavens Cheesy

    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #4 - April 10, 2009, 05:22 PM

    No wonder there are too many black holes in the heavens Cheesy

     Cheesy Cheesy

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #5 - April 10, 2009, 05:27 PM

    No wonder there are too many black holes in the heavens Cheesy

     Cheesy Cheesy

    There's only one arsch-hole in the heavens

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  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #6 - April 10, 2009, 05:47 PM

    A good and much maturer response from BMZ...

    P.S BMZ - the questions marks are probably usually as a result from cutting & pasting from elsewhere, and using characters that are unrecognisable on this interface - click the preview button before posting, and you can remove all the question marks beforehand. 

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  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #7 - April 10, 2009, 05:51 PM

    No wonder there are too many black holes in the heavens Cheesy

     Cheesy Cheesy

    There's only one arsch-hole in the heavens


    Cheesy That was even better, Islame.

    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #8 - April 10, 2009, 06:29 PM

    BMZ wrote this in the debate:

    "There is no mention of that. In fact, Prophet was told not to force Islam on people as people could distinguish between right and wrong."

    Really? Then why did the Prophet march into Mecca & smash the idolaters idols, proclaiming that only those who remained indoors would be safe? There were 360 idols' around the kaaba, all smashed by Mo. People were allowed to come out of their houses only after Mo was done with the idol smashing. If someone marched into Saudi Arabia tomorrow, smashed the mosques & the kaaba, asked people remain indoors while he was smashing or threatened to kill them-& only after clearing Saudi of the kaaba & all the mosques allowed people to come out, wouldn't that be forcing?

    In fact, not only were people converted to Islam by force, they were also made to remain Muslim by force. As soon as Mo died, ridda(apostasy) wars broke out amongst the converted folks, intent on casting off the yoke of Islam imposed on them by Mo. These wars were ruthlessly suppressed by the early Caliphs.

    As for others fighting against the religion of Allah, why wouldn?t they fight when they were treated unequally? They had to pay the jizya taxes to the Muslims.

    009.029
    YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe neither in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
    PICKTHAL: Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
    SHAKIR: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

    Further, a Muslim man could readily marry a Christian or Jewish woman, Quran(5:5), while a non Muslim man would have to convert to Islam to marry a Muslim woman-Quran(2:221)

    Other faiths would be discriminated against by Islam, & they?ll have to tolerate it quietly?  finmad



    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #9 - April 10, 2009, 10:49 PM

    We have to read in the order so that there is no confusion. In fact, it would be easier to understand, if one reads the verses in that section, which does not comprise of only one verse 2:193, which, in the Islamophobic and polemic world, is known as "The Killer Verse". lol!

    This is disingenuous. That verse is traditionally known, among traditional Islamic scholars and going back for centuries, as "The Verse of the Sword". To claim that it is only "Islamophobic polemicists" who call it "The Killer Verse" is dishonest. It has always been regarded as a verse about killing.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #10 - April 11, 2009, 04:36 AM

    No wonder there are too many black holes in the heavens Cheesy

    Off-topic, but we've yet to find even one, don't let the popular scientists fool you.

    "It may happen that the enemies of Islam may consider it expedient not to take any action against Islam, if Islam leaves them alone in their geographical boundaries... But Islam cannot agree to this unless they submit to its authority by paying Jizyah"

    -Sayyid Qutb, Milestones
  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #11 - April 11, 2009, 08:30 AM

    I think SNB is going to clean this one up. He's already making a strong case.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #12 - April 12, 2009, 11:41 AM


    I think SNB has clinched the issue with the verse 9:29 here. The verse clearly is an example of "compulsion" or "coercion" in the matters of faith no matter how much BMZ tries to obfuscate the contradiction.

    Isn't it pathetic how BMZ seems not to be able to see the actual, relevant portions of the verses and comments of SNB's posts?

    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #13 - April 12, 2009, 01:25 PM

    I was actually with BMZ until SBs last post.  The post prior to this was almost the same as the first one, and brought nothing new to the table.  On the basis of the arguments so far if you are oppressed, then retaliation is natural.  However SBs additonal verse tipped the balance for me..

    "Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay
    the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

    However I dont know the context, but am sure BMZ will bring it up if its relevent..

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  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #14 - April 12, 2009, 01:34 PM

    Islam has a lot of unneccessary & discriminatory demands on non Muslims, the jizya tax for one, the other is the Muslim ability to freely marry Christian or Jewish women, Quran(5:5) but non Muslim men will have to convert to Islam to marry Muslim women.Quran 2:221.

    When you're discriminated against, be it as a non Muslim in Muhammad's time or as a Black in segregated America, its perfectly allright to object.

    "Separate but equal" becomes meaningless in segregated U.S.A., & "there is no compulsion in religion," becomes meaningless if  non Muslims have to pay the jizya or convert to Islam to marry Muslimahs, but not the other way round.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #15 - April 12, 2009, 03:22 PM

    I was actually with BMZ until SBs last post.  The post prior to this was almost the same as the first one, and brought nothing new to the table.  On the basis of the arguments so far if you are oppressed, then retaliation is natural.  However SBs additonal verse tipped the balance for me..

    "Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay
    the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

    However I dont know the context, but am sure BMZ will bring it up if its relevent..


    You seem to have missed the point SNB was making in his earlier post. One verse says there is no compulsion; but even if, as per the second verse, the kafirs are forced to accept Islam when they fight or try to oppress Muslims, the "compulsion" occurs. In other words, whether in defensive war or otherwise, if Quran instructs Muslims to compel the kafirs to accept Islam, it directly contradicts the "no compulsion" verse.

    SNB's presentation of the above quoted verse leaves one in no doubt that there IS a glaring contradiction.

    I hope I have made the point clear to you.


    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #16 - April 12, 2009, 03:25 PM

    I got this point, thanks, I just didnt want to go into detail as I could not be bothered getting into an argument with someone about the technicalities

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  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #17 - April 12, 2009, 03:58 PM

    Quote from: skynightblaze
    Since its not required to force your belief on others in case of self defense it can be seen that self defense is just an excuse cooked to meet your aims .Its unwarranted!!


    Right. It is like exhorting some boy to rape the girl who mocks him.

    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #18 - April 12, 2009, 04:13 PM

    Quote from: skynightblaze
    Since its not required to force your belief on others in case of self defense it can be seen that self defense is just an excuse cooked to meet your aims .Its unwarranted!!


    Right. It is like exhorting some boy to rape the girl who mocks him.


    Rape because of mocking is an overreaction and thus obviously wrong.

    Conversion because somebody is killing you is not as bad, and could be done in self defence (to avoid bing attacked again for being different).  Hence I agreed with BMZ, i.e. it did not necessarily go against 'compulsion in religion' necessarily, and could be self preservation.

    However SNB turned the tables with the last quote, because there is no act of transgression as a mitigating factor.

    He should have used that one to begin with but he may have not researched the topic initially.

    A contradiction for me has to be clear cut, and beyond reasonable doubt.

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  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #19 - April 12, 2009, 04:31 PM

    Quote from: skynightblaze
    Since its not required to force your belief on others in case of self defense it can be seen that self defense is just an excuse cooked to meet your aims .Its unwarranted!!


    Right. It is like exhorting some boy to rape the girl who mocks him.


    Rape because of mocking is an overreaction and thus obviously wrong.

    Conversion because somebody is killing you is not as bad, and could be done in self defence (to avoid bing attacked again for being different).  Hence I agreed with BMZ, i.e. it did not necessarily go against 'compulsion in religion' necessarily, and could be self preservation.

    However SNB turned the tables with the last quote, because there is no act of transgression as a mitigating factor.

    He should have used that one to begin with but he may have not researched the topic initially.

    A contradiction for me has to be clear cut, and beyond reasonable doubt.


    Point taken.

    However, I don't think Muslims were being killed then. Correct me if I am wrong.

    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #20 - April 12, 2009, 04:43 PM

    Quote from: skynightblaze
    Since its not required to force your belief on others in case of self defense it can be seen that self defense is just an excuse cooked to meet your aims .Its unwarranted!!


    Right. It is like exhorting some boy to rape the girl who mocks him.


    Rape because of mocking is an overreaction and thus obviously wrong.

    Conversion because somebody is killing you is not as bad, and could be done in self defence (to avoid bing attacked again for being different).  Hence I agreed with BMZ, i.e. it did not necessarily go against 'compulsion in religion' necessarily, and could be self preservation.

    However SNB turned the tables with the last quote, because there is no act of transgression as a mitigating factor.

    He should have used that one to begin with but he may have not researched the topic initially.

    A contradiction for me has to be clear cut, and beyond reasonable doubt.


    Point taken.

    However, I don't think Muslims were being killed then. Correct me if I am wrong.

    I might be wrong, as I am just making an assumption.

    However I am not sure how otherwise foreign idolators could oppress them without any fighting or killing involved, but if this inference is wrong then I am happy to change my mind.

    On a separate note, I was basing this on the arguments used so far.  Had SNB talked about innocent idolators from that land who were not involved in oppression but part of the same group, and muslims having to convert them also according to the verse, then this would obviously be a contradiction..

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  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #21 - April 12, 2009, 05:22 PM

    Quote from: skynightblaze
    Since its not required to force your belief on others in case of self defense it can be seen that self defense is just an excuse cooked to meet your aims .Its unwarranted!!


    Right. It is like exhorting some boy to rape the girl who mocks him.


    Rape because of mocking is an overreaction and thus obviously wrong.

    Conversion because somebody is killing you is not as bad, and could be done in self defence (to avoid bing attacked again for being different).  Hence I agreed with BMZ, i.e. it did not necessarily go against 'compulsion in religion' necessarily, and could be self preservation.

    However SNB turned the tables with the last quote, because there is no act of transgression as a mitigating factor.

    He should have used that one to begin with but he may have not researched the topic initially.

    A contradiction for me has to be clear cut, and beyond reasonable doubt.


    Point taken.

    However, I don't think Muslims were being killed then. Correct me if I am wrong.

    I might be wrong, as I am just making an assumption.

    However I am not sure how otherwise foreign idolators could oppress them without any fighting or killing involved, but if this inference is wrong then I am happy to change my mind.

    On a separate note, I was basing this on the arguments used so far.  Had SNB talked about innocent idolators from that land who were not involved in oppression but part of the same group, and muslims having to convert them also according to the verse, then this would obviously be a contradiction..


    Well, conversion even if someone is killing you is wrong,in that case, you just kill that individual-today Muslims are bombing loads of places in the world on a daily basis, should an Army of kafirs march into Saudi Arabia & other Muslim lands, smash the kaaba, the Mecca mosque, other Saudi mosques & all mosques all over the world, converting all Muslims out of Islam?  Huh?

    No if someone is attempting to kill you, you kill that specific person.

    In any case, the idolaters & Jews had good reason to be pissed with the new religion, which explains why both groups violently resisted it. This faith insisted that they pay a special tax & feel subdued, Muslim men could marry their women, they'd have to convert to Islam to marry Muslimahs, all these are instances of coercion.

    Even the special tax called jizya is an instance of monetary compulsion...  Wink

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #22 - April 12, 2009, 05:37 PM

    No one is discussing if its right, wrong, or in between?  We are discussing if its a contradiction.

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  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #23 - April 12, 2009, 05:39 PM

      We are discussing if its a contradiction.


    Well, then it is a contradiction, a specific tax which only non Muslims will have to pay is a contradiction of "No compulsion..." its economic compulsion.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #24 - April 12, 2009, 05:49 PM

    Again you are missing the point.  Its on who is winning in the debate thus far.  Jizya has not been mentioned, you brought it to the table here. Like I mentioned earlier, nor has the innocent victims who will also have to convert. 

    Please dont bring your ingrained biases here, that is what the rest of the forum is for. 

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  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #25 - April 12, 2009, 06:03 PM

    Yes, I get your point.  Smiley

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #26 - April 13, 2009, 02:08 AM

    No one is discussing if its right, wrong, or in between?  We are discussing if its a contradiction.


    So very right!

    Going by your statement, it is easy to conclude that irrespective of the motive or reasons behind it Quran does instruct them to convert the infidels and hence there IS a contradiction which cannot be papered over by Muslims. Even though 9:29 clinches the issue, it was not necessary to prove the contradiction. I hope you will agree.

    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #27 - April 13, 2009, 09:14 AM

    No one is discussing if its right, wrong, or in between?  We are discussing if its a contradiction.


    So very right!

    Going by your statement, it is easy to conclude that irrespective of the motive or reasons behind it Quran does instruct them to convert the infidels and hence there IS a contradiction which cannot be papered over by Muslims. Even though 9:29 clinches the issue, it was not necessary to prove the contradiction. I hope you will agree.

    I dont know yet, based on my earlier reasons as a defensive mechanism and only being able to go by evidence supplied in that thread.

    However I would agree based on my personal experience of the Quran and hadith, its a contradiction.  However BMZ conveniently chooses to only accept Hadith that does not contradict the Quran - circular deceipt i you ask me, but the only person he is conning is himself, not me, so I dont really care.

    However that does not apply here, BMZ does not accept Hadith nor has he respnded to 2:29 post yet.  You are right, from SNBs last post 2.29 came across as a clear cut contradiction, but my guess is BMZ will reply showing it to be under the same conditions as the last one.

    A contradiction for me is if the Quran said the earth was cuboid in shape, and later said is was a prism. Even if BMZ said it was a metaphor, it would not work for me in this context.

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  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #28 - April 13, 2009, 09:27 AM

    You've got a double post there, mate.Wink

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan
     Reply #29 - April 13, 2009, 09:29 AM

    fixed

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