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Theme Changer

 Topic: A Woman's consent - does it matter

 (Read 4673 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • A Woman's consent - does it matter
     OP - April 04, 2009, 09:07 PM

    From reading the various Hadith collections and incidents in Muhammad's life it becomes apparent that in those days a women's consent for sex was deemed completely irrelevant and a non-issue. Hence there are hadith that say a wife cannot refuse her husband access unless it is her time of the month. I know Saudi even today doesn't recognise rape as a crime because it doesn't accept the concept of womens consent.

    Is this true, does Islam not consider a women's consent important? Is this how most Muslims in the Muslim world feel too or is it just Arabs?

    Take the Pakman challenge and convince me there is a God and Mo was not a murdering, power hungry sex maniac.
  • Re: A Woman's consent - does it matter
     Reply #1 - April 04, 2009, 09:14 PM

    To be fair: in most modern west cultures, if a husband claims he was raped by his wife because he did not consent to sexing, he would be laughed at and then ignored.

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: A Woman's consent - does it matter
     Reply #2 - April 04, 2009, 09:27 PM

    To be fair: in most modern west cultures, if a husband claims he was raped by his wife because he did not consent to sexing, he would be laughed at and then ignored.

    How can a man be raped? If a man is not willing to have sex, he will not have an erection, and that's the end of the story. Some women have been prosecuted for raping young males, AFAIK, but most such cases involved violence towards, or the anal violation of, the young male.

    Sexual harassment is another story, of course. Some women are so goddamn pesky!


    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: A Woman's consent - does it matter
     Reply #3 - April 04, 2009, 09:37 PM

    From reading the various Hadith collections and incidents in Muhammad's life it becomes apparent that in those days a women's consent for sex was deemed completely irrelevant and a non-issue. Hence there are hadith that say a wife cannot refuse her husband access unless it is her time of the month. I know Saudi even today doesn't recognise rape as a crime because it doesn't accept the concept of womens consent.

    Is this true, does Islam not consider a women's consent important? Is this how most Muslims in the Muslim world feel too or is it just Arabs?


    A woman's consent in marriage is not considered important at all. This is because a woman is not allowed to refuse her husband sex unless she is on her period.
    Rape by somebody who is not a woman's husband is actually punishable by death. However, this is very difficult to prove as there needs to be four male witnesses. Firstly, what are the chances that there will be four male witnesses. Secondly, even if there are four male witnesses, what are the chances that they will testify? Thirdly, rape cases will very often be turned around and the woman is accused of Zina!

    How can a man be raped? If a man is not willing to have sex, he will not have an erection, and that's the end of the story. Some women have been prosecuted for raping young males, AFAIK, but most such cases involved violence towards, or the anal violation of, the young male.

    Sexual harassment is another story, of course. Some women are so goddamn pesky!



    A man definitely can be raped. Just because a man does not want to have sex, does not mean it is impossible for him to get an erection. However, women raping men, is far, far less commonplace than men raping women.

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: A Woman's consent - does it matter
     Reply #4 - April 05, 2009, 01:31 AM

    How can a man be raped? If a man is not willing to have sex, he will not have an erection, and that's the end of the story. Some women have been prosecuted for raping young males, AFAIK, but most such cases involved violence towards, or the anal violation of, the young male.

    Sexual harassment is another story, of course. Some women are so goddamn pesky!

    If your wife forces you to have sex when you do not feel like it in the first place, you can get an erection by mere physical stimulation. Also, being your wife, you supposedly don't find her unattractive at all to begin with.

    Men can be pressured into having sex by threatening them psychologically. Like, making them feel useless as human beings if they don't fulfill the stereotypically manly role of being ready for sex 24/7, etcetera.
    Or blackmailing them.

    PS: Having an erection doesn't automatically imply wanting sex: for example when you get an annoying morning erection after you wake up and you just can't wait till it goes away so you can freely pee. And wanting sex does imply having an erection: for example when your penis doesn't cooperate when you want to do somebody Tongue

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: A Woman's consent - does it matter
     Reply #5 - April 05, 2009, 06:26 AM

    From reading the various Hadith collections and incidents in Muhammad's life it becomes apparent that in those days a women's consent for sex was deemed completely irrelevant and a non-issue. Hence there are hadith that say a wife cannot refuse her husband access unless it is her time of the month. I know Saudi even today doesn't recognise rape as a crime because it doesn't accept the concept of womens consent.

    Is this true, does Islam not consider a women's consent important? Is this how most Muslims in the Muslim world feel too or is it just Arabs?


    I found these Hadiths regarding the issue:


    Muhammad said: "If a husband calls his wife to his bed (i.e. to have sexual relation) and she refuses and causes him to sleep in anger, the angels will curse her till morning." -- Bukhari 4.54.460

    In another hadith, Muhammad says: "By him in Whose Hand lies my life, a woman can not carry out the right of her Lord, till she carries out the right of her husband. And if he asks her to surrender herself (to him for sexual intercourse) she should not refuse him even if she is on a camel's saddle." -- Ibn Majah 1854

    Bukhari the most authentic collection of Hadiths considers it wrong on the part of the wife to refuse her husband sex, Ibn Majah, who's hadiths are less important, is far more explicit in stating that a woman shouldn't refuse her husband's sexual demands at any place or any time-& Muhammad or Ibn Majah illustrate the point by stating that she cannot refuse even when she's astride a camel.  Tongue

    Regarding what most Muslims believe- Muslim men believing in gender equality & holding the belief that Islam is an egalitarian faith will find ways to filter out or explain away these sexist Hadiths-while horny,sexist Muslim men & husbands will use these as their justification to demand sex anytime, though this type of sexist Hadiths will always act as an impediment to criminalizing marital rape & encourage sexist men to insist that wives not refuse them.


    Heard of the ditty, "Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?" Marriage was regarded down the ages as a cold, calculating transaction between women who wanted a husband & his money and men who wanted a wife to have sex. This was repeated by grandmoms & moms to young ladies warning them that if they had pre marital sex with a man, she wasn't going to end up with a ring on her finger!  Tongue

    However, it is important to note that marital rape wasn't criminalized even in Western nations some decades back, & still isn't criminalized in many non Muslim nations, so the belief that once you buy the cow, you can demand milk anytime was held in most societies & still held in many societies, irrespective of religion.

     Thinking hard Mo couldn't take a second wife as long as Khadijah was alive, he also didn't dare fool around with her slave girl like he did later- how would Khadijah respond if he demanded sex when she was astride a camel? In all probably she'd sternly say "Snap out of it or I'll divorce you without any alimony & he'd  Run for the hills


    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: A Woman's consent - does it matter
     Reply #6 - April 05, 2009, 12:09 PM

    Remember in regards to marriage Muhammad said that a woman's silence indicated her consent! This is completely at odds with rationality, and indeed it is against Contract Law in Britain!

    "At 8:47 I do a grenade jump off a ladder."
  • Re: A Woman's consent - does it matter
     Reply #7 - April 06, 2009, 06:57 PM

    Remember in regards to marriage Muhammad said that a woman's silence indicated her consent! This is completely at odds with rationality, and indeed it is against Contract Law in Britain!


    No this is for marriage to virgins (like Aisha). The problem with claiming rape in an Islamic marriage is that the Mahr was already accepted by the wife, and Muhammad said that the Mahr was payment for the use of her vagina. So by paying a wife her Mahr, and by her accepting it, she has granted her husband the exclusive use of her vagina whenever he wants it. This is also why, if a woman is guilty of adultery, then she must give back part/all of the Mahr - because the conditions apon which she accepted it (husband's sole use of her vagina) were not met (ie. he did not get what he paid for).

    http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Mahr
  • Re: A Woman's consent - does it matter
     Reply #8 - April 06, 2009, 07:55 PM

    Remember in regards to marriage Muhammad said that a woman's silence indicated her consent! This is completely at odds with rationality, and indeed it is against Contract Law in Britain!


    No this is for marriage to virgins (like Aisha). The problem with claiming rape in an Islamic marriage is that the Mahr was already accepted by the wife, and Muhammad said that the Mahr was payment for the use of her vagina. So by paying a wife her Mahr, and by her accepting it, she has granted her husband the exclusive use of her vagina whenever he wants it. This is also why, if a woman is guilty of adultery, then she must give back part/all of the Mahr - because the conditions apon which she accepted it (husband's sole use of her vagina) were not met (ie. he did not get what he paid for).

    http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Mahr

    yay she did not burn yet.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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