Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
Today at 05:36 PM

What music are you listen...
by zeca
Today at 02:11 PM

NayaPakistan...New Pakist...
Today at 11:42 AM

Reading stabbings
Yesterday at 10:32 PM

Coronavirus crisis
Yesterday at 12:20 PM

Qur'anic studies today
January 12, 2021, 03:05 PM

AMRIKAAA Land of Free .....
January 12, 2021, 11:42 AM

Hello
January 09, 2021, 07:46 AM

Paris murder
January 08, 2021, 07:50 PM

Freely down loadable Boo...
January 07, 2021, 03:21 AM

The Lady of the Heaven., ...
January 04, 2021, 05:10 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
January 01, 2021, 10:01 AM

Theme Changer

 Topic: BMZ and Skynightblaze

 (Read 52508 times)
  • Previous page 1 23 4 ... 9 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #30 - April 01, 2009, 12:39 PM

    Has skynightblaze not blasted the ah..so...convenient interpretation of "Throne" as "dominion" of Allah?

    What is your opinion friends?

    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #31 - April 01, 2009, 12:49 PM

    Has skynightblaze not blasted the ah..so...convenient interpretation of "Throne" as "dominion" of Allah?

    What is your opinion friends?



    BMZ's point seems to rest on the assertion that the arabic word for throne can have more than one meaning, just as for example, the english word "seat" when referring to a peerage can mean either literally their seat in the House of Lords, or their ancestral "seat", ie, their home and lands.

    It sounds plausible, I spose, but you'd need to be an Arabic speaker to know whether or not he's right, so I reserve judgement till I hear the opinion of those who know the language.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #32 - April 01, 2009, 01:47 PM


    The Arabic word for throne used in Quran is ARSH which can be made to have many meanings but skynightblaze proves it is a physical unit and his source is verses of Quran in context. Eight angels upholding a dominion from sides does not make sense for anyone, but if these angels are carrying a throne standing by sides, that would make sense.

    And not surprisingly, the traditional interpreters of Quran are with skynightblaze?s version. Have a look at Ibn Abbas commenting on Quran 69:17:

    And the angels will be on the sides thereof) on its extremities, sides, different directions and parts (and eight) He says: eight different angels, each one of them has four different faces: a human face, a face of an eagle, a face of a lion, and a face of a bull; and it is also said: eight rows; and it is also said: eight parts of the Cherubim, who dwell on the seventh heaven (will uphold the Throne of their Lord that day) the Day of Judgement, (above them) on their necks.

    After reading SNB, I went through most of those Tafsirs in brief. All including Zamaqshari, Qurtubi, Al-Razi, Ibn Kathir confirm the angels carrying the throne of Allah. An important matter here is Ibn Kathir?s online English translators have conveniently omitted a good part of Imam Ibn Kathir?s Tafsir which discusses of the angels standing aside and carrying the throne of Allah. I am sorry for pasting some Arabic stuff in here, but what I bring below can not be found in the online English translation of Ibn Kathir here: http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php

    But it is available in Arabic in Saudi Website : http://www.altafsir.com/ 

    وقوله تعالى: { وَيَحْمِلُ عَرْشَ رَبِّكَ فَوْقَهُمْ يَوْمَئِذٍ ثَمَـٰنِيَةٌ } أي: يوم القيامة يحمل العرش ثمانية من الملائكة، ويحتمل أن يكون المراد بهذا: العرش العظيم، أو العرش الذي يوضع في الأرض يوم القيامة  لفصل القضاء، والله أعلم بالصواب. وفي حديث عبد الله بن عميرة عن الأحنف بن قيس عن العباس بن عبد المطلب في ذكر حملة العرش: أنهم ثمانية أوعال. وقال ابن أبي حاتم: حدثنا أبو سعيد يحيى بن سعيد، حدثنا زيد بن الحباب، حدثني أبو السمح البصري، حدثنا أبو قبيل حيي بن هانىء: أنه سمع عبد الله بن عمرو يقول: حملة العرش ثمانية، ما بين موق أحدهم إلى مؤخر عينه مسيرة مئة عام. وقال ابن أبي حاتم: حدثنا أبي قال: كتب إلي أحمد بن حفص بن عبد الله النيسابوري: حدثني أبي، حدثنا إبراهيم بن طهمان عن موسى بن عقبة عن محمد بن المنكدر عن جابر قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم: " أذن لي أن أحدثكم عن ملك من حملة العرش بعد ما بين شحمة أذنه وعنقه مخفق الطير سبعمئة عام " وهذا إسناد جيد، رجاله كلهم ثقات، وقد رواه أبو داود في كتاب السنة من سننه: حدثنا أحمد بن حفص ابن عبد الله، حدثنا أبي، حدثنا إبراهيم بن طهمان عن موسى بن عقبة عن محمد بن المنكدر عن جابر ابن عبد الله: أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قال: " أذن لي أن أحدث عن ملك من ملائكة الله تعالى من حملة العرش: أن ما بين شحمة أذنه إلى عاتقه مسيرة سبعمئة عام " هذا لفظ أبي داود.

    وقال ابن أبي حاتم: حدثنا أبو زرعة، حدثنا يحيى بن المغيرة، حدثنا جرير عن أشعث عن جعفر عن سعيد بن جبير في قوله تعالى: { وَيَحْمِلُ عَرْشَ رَبِّكَ فَوْقَهُمْ يَوْمَئِذٍ ثَمَـٰنِيَةٌ } قال: ثمانية صفوف من الملائكة، قال: وروي عن الشعبي وعكرمة والضحاك وابن جريج مثل ذلك، وكذا روى السدي عن أبي مالك عن ابن عباس: ثمانية صفوف، وكذا روى العوفي عنه، وقال الضحاك عن ابن عباس: الكروبيون ثمانية أجزاء، كل جزء منهم بعدة الإنس والجن والشياطين والملائكة

    This much is omitted by Ibn Kathir?s online English translators. Why?

    For sure there is something stinking because Imam Ibn Kathir mentions Allah?s throne being placed on earth on the Judgment Day. (The bolded red  in the quote above)

    Who are they going to deceive?

    KF
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #33 - April 01, 2009, 02:18 PM

    That doesn't really answer BMZ's point - ie, that the word is used to mean the throne of Allah literally in the verse about angels surrounding it, and figuratively to mean his dominion/power in the verse which describes it as spanning the Earth and seven heavens.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #34 - April 01, 2009, 02:42 PM

    That doesn't really answer BMZ's point - ie, that the word is used to mean the throne of Allah literally in the verse about angels surrounding it, and figuratively to mean his dominion/power in the verse which describes it as spanning the Earth and seven heavens.


    Is there any reason, reference or some instruction anywhere in Quran which instructs us to take the meaning of Arsh in one verse as literal and in other verses as figurative? Or do you mean to say it should be left to the convenience of Muslims to interpret as they wish? Skynightblaze (and also KhaliL) has shown it clearly that everywhere else Quran meant physical throne by "Arsh". Why should it be taken as figurative in the problematic verse?

    Sorry, but that does not wash and is utterly unconvincing. I have seen Muslims claiming that water does not mean water and throne does not mean throne in spite of innumerable claims of Allah about Quran being clear and easy to understand.

    I would have congratulated skynightblaze, but I would prefer to wait to see what arguments BMZ brings to counter skynightblaze's point.  Smiley

    BMZ cannot wriggle out of this conundrum until he can properly explain why should Arsh be taken figuratively in the said verse. He should bring proper references as his personal opinions do not count.

    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #35 - April 01, 2009, 02:56 PM

    That doesn't really answer BMZ's point - ie, that the word is used to mean the throne of Allah literally in the verse about angels surrounding it, and figuratively to mean his dominion/power in the verse which describes it as spanning the Earth and seven heavens.


    وَالْمَلَكُ عَلَى أَرْجَائِهَا وَيَحْمِلُ عَرْشَ رَبِّكَ فَوْقَهُمْ يَوْمَئِذٍ ثَمَانِيَةٌ

    And the angels will be on its sides, and eight will, that Day, bear the Throne of thy Lord above them.[Quran 69:17 Picktal)

    This is the original verse and if BMZ?s allegorical interpretation should stand, he must define what does it mean eight (the number is important) angels bearing the dominion?

    ARSH literally means Throne and Quran surah Yousuf verse: 100 clarify it. Joseph placed his parents on ARSH , the same kind of ARSH which was in waters when Allah created heavens and earth (Quran 11:7)


    KF
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #36 - April 01, 2009, 03:00 PM

    That doesn't really answer BMZ's point - ie, that the word is used to mean the throne of Allah literally in the verse about angels surrounding it, and figuratively to mean his dominion/power in the verse which describes it as spanning the Earth and seven heavens.


    وَالْمَلَكُ عَلَى أَرْجَائِهَا وَيَحْمِلُ عَرْشَ رَبِّكَ فَوْقَهُمْ يَوْمَئِذٍ ثَمَانِيَةٌ

    And the angels will be on its sides, and eight will, that Day, bear the Throne of thy Lord above them.[Quran 69:17 Picktal)

    This is the original verse and if BMZ?s allegorical interpretation should stand, he must define what does it mean eight (the number is important) angels bearing the dominion?

    ARSH literally means Throne and Quran surah Yousuf verse: 100 clarify it. Joseph placed his parents on ARSH , the same kind of ARSH which was in waters when Allah created heavens and earth (Quran 11:7)


    Why not allow BMZ to claim that "Arsh" means an umbrella here, and "eight" means "two" figuratively?  Cheesy

    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #37 - April 01, 2009, 03:12 PM

    @ Cheetah, I think it's simple;

    in 2:255, the word is (Kursiyyohoo) = (his chair or seat) literally;


    I reckon it can't be dealt with as an intangible object meaning power, knowledge or whatever;

    the same verse says:  Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth.


    and in 2:247:  Allah granteth His sovereignty to whom He pleaseth.


    2:105:  But Allah will choose for His special mercy whom He will for Allah is Lord of grace abounding.


    20:98: all things He comprehends in His knowledge.


    So in many verses Allah (or Mo) uses clear and vivid descriptive words.



    BMZ has to know also that different Engl translations don't mirror the exact Arabic Quran, they however depend largely on tafsirs, so when BMZ quoted the translation that stated (kursiyyoho) in 2:255 being power, dominion etc this was inspired by some tafsirs, not the actual text.


    skynightblaze has to bear in mind too that in his rebuttal he focused on verses that mentioned (arsh) and how it's absurd to consider arsh being power, knowledge etc;

    BUT, BMZ's point was that the word (throne) (in Arabic==> Kursiyyohoo) in 2:255 that meant to be intangible (power...etc), not throne in other verses;

    and again, that was from translations that rely on tafsirs....Yet when we look @ the literal meaning, Kursiyohoo means (his chair)..

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #38 - April 01, 2009, 03:13 PM

    ___________________________

    Now it is more interesting:  See:

    BMZ Reply # 3
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=4828.msg123219#msg123219
    Quote
    The verse is not talking about any throne. Kursee-yehee (His chair or His Throne) in the verse means His power, dominion, reach, control and government.


    The same BMZ Reply # 5
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=4828.msg123551#msg123551
    Quote
    By now, it should be clear to you that Arsh does not mean power or dominion, etc. Arsh simply is Allah's area from where Allah operates. This is as simple as I can put. I do not know how it looks like. No one does, haven't been there yet.



    What is going on?Huh?

    KF
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #39 - April 01, 2009, 03:14 PM

    Quote
    Is there any reason, reference or some instruction anywhere in Quran which instructs us to take the meaning of Arsh in one verse as literal and in other verses as figurative? Or do you mean to say it should be left to the convenience of Muslims to interpret as they wish? Skynightblaze (and also KhaliL) has shown it clearly that everywhere else Quran meant physical throne by "Arsh". Why should it be taken as figurative in the problematic verse?


    That was exactly my question - not being an Arabic speaker, I asked whether or not that was an alternative, idiomatically correct usage of the Arabic word for throne. 

    That question has yet to be answered, although Khalil did confirm that there are different usages of the word, he didn't elaborate.

    Quote from: Khalil
    And the angels will be on its sides, and eight will, that Day, bear the Throne of thy Lord above them.[Quran 69:17 Picktal)

    This is the original verse and if BMZ?s allegorical interpretation should stand, he must define what does it mean eight (the number is important) angels bearing the dominion?


    In his OP Skynighblaze asserted that there was an error in the Qur'an, on the grounds that in the verse quoted above people will see 8 angels circling the throne of Allah, and in another verse the throne of Allah is described as encompassing the earth and heavens.  How, asked SNB, could people possibly see angels standing round the throne if it is that large?  Nobody can see that far.

    BMZ's rebuttal is to assert that the second verse quoted uses throne to mean dominion/power, and the first in a more literal sense.  Are both those definitions of the Arabic word for throne correct or not?

    Quote
    Why not allow BMZ to claim that "Arsh" means an umbrella here, and "eight" means "two" figuratively?


    Does the the Arabic word "Arsh"have an alternative definition as umbrella?  Does their word for eight double as their word for two?  I doubt it somehow, which should answer your question.






    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #40 - April 01, 2009, 03:18 PM

    And BMZ now seems to have contradicted his earlier defense.   wacko

    @Emerald,  so the initial defense of the Qur'an put up by BMZ is linguistically incorrect then?

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #41 - April 01, 2009, 03:24 PM

    ___________________________

    Now it is more interesting:  See:

    BMZ Reply # 3
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=4828.msg123219#msg123219
    Quote
    The verse is not talking about any throne. Kursee-yehee (His chair or His Throne) in the verse means His power, dominion, reach, control and government.


    The same BMZ Reply # 5
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=4828.msg123551#msg123551
    Quote
    By now, it should be clear to you that Arsh does not mean power or dominion, etc. Arsh simply is Allah's area from where Allah operates. This is as simple as I can put. I do not know how it looks like. No one does, haven't been there yet.



    What is going on?Huh?

    KF


    And BMZ now seems to have contradicted his earlier defense.   wacko

    @Emerald,  so the initial defense of the Qur'an put up by BMZ is linguistically incorrect then?


    That is what happens when untenable explanations are invented.

    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #42 - April 01, 2009, 03:30 PM

    Quote from: BMZ

    For the next part, which I have left untouched, I would say you cannot because you are just relying on various translations of your choice, without even understanding a word of Arabic.


    Right. Don't even bother about the claims that the message of Quran is for all the times and for all the people. What use is a message if it can only be understood in a particular language? 1400 years, billions of Muslims, dozens of translations and tafsirs and still nobody could translate it properly?

    Is Quran translatable at all?

    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #43 - April 01, 2009, 03:46 PM

    _____________________________

    Again: Roll Eyes


    BMZ Reply # 3
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=4828.msg123219#msg123219
    Quote
    First, one should know how Muslims read and understand Qur'aan. They read and study it in the order it has been compiled.

    BMZ Reply # 5

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=4828.msg123551#msg123551
    Quote
    I never said that Qur'aan talks about compilation   and the order, etc. Did I? If I did, please show me where did I say so?

     

    Laughs?. Quran was the only source of reference that is approved in the debate. BMZ first claimed of Quran?s compilation but when SNB asked for its evidence, instead of thumbing Quran and proving his case BMZ contradicts again.

    So, what?s up? Wink

    KF
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #44 - April 01, 2009, 03:55 PM

    @Emerald,  so the initial defense of the Qur'an put up by BMZ is linguistically incorrect then?

    ==========

    BMZ's concept of the (kursi) in 2:255 being intangible is unstable, I don't think he can back this up using Quran (since he can't use tafsirs)..!


    He first asserted that (kursi) is intangible, (Arsh) is tangible, but then somehow he changed his view..!!

    The word Arsh when mentioned alone would mean the Throne, the Seat of His Power. It need not be a sofa or a seat or a stool or a chair or a stage or dice, as we do not believe that Allah is a huge man sitting on some furniture piece. Allah can call Himself anything he likes as He is the Master.

    The word Arsh does not mean dominion or power, reach, etc.

    If Arsh is written as Arshahu, literally meaning His Throne, in a specific verse, it would mean exactly as Kurseeyehee, i.e., power, reach, dominion, government or control, etc., as I explained in my first response to your debate post.



    Edit: so he's saying Arsh is tangible, unless if one add a pronoun to it, making it: Arshuhu.!!

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #45 - April 01, 2009, 04:04 PM

    Well, in that case I think BMZ was refuted even before he contradicted himself.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #46 - April 01, 2009, 04:06 PM

    Well, in that case I think BMZ was refuted even before he contradicted himself.

    ============

    Cheetah, where do you see the contradiction exactly?

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #47 - April 01, 2009, 04:07 PM

    BTW, I checked Arabic Lexicons, and all agree Kursi is always tangible.

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #48 - April 01, 2009, 04:12 PM

    I see the contradiction in the same place as you....

    Quote from: Emerald
    He first asserted that (kursi) is intangible, (Arsh) is tangible, but then somehow he changed his view..!!


    I'm taking your word for it, you're the Arabic speaker, my Arabic begins and ends with Salaam alaikum, and I can't even spell that.   parrot

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #49 - April 01, 2009, 04:27 PM

    Looks like Skynightblaze hit BMZ with a full blown uppercut right under the chin - he wasnt expecting that.  BMZ is crouched in the corner, looking at the stars and the referees counting... 1 Ah 2 Ah 3 Ah ...

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #50 - April 01, 2009, 04:28 PM

    ___________________________

    Now it is more interesting:  See:

    BMZ Reply # 3
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=4828.msg123219#msg123219
    Quote
    The verse is not talking about any throne. Kursee-yehee (His chair or His Throne) in the verse means His power, dominion, reach, control and government.


    The same BMZ Reply # 5
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=4828.msg123551#msg123551
    Quote
    By now, it should be clear to you that Arsh does not mean power or dominion, etc. Arsh simply is Allah's area from where Allah operates. This is as simple as I can put. I do not know how it looks like. No one does, haven't been there yet.



    What is going on?Huh?

    KF

    =============

    KF, what's wrong with the quoted?

    I think BMZ deals with arsh and kursi as 2 different things, one is tangible other ain't....(b4 he came and added that arsh could be intangible too..)

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #51 - April 01, 2009, 04:28 PM

    I'm taking your word for it, you're the Arabic speaker, my Arabic begins and ends with Salaam alaikum, and I can't even spell that.   parrot

    ===========

    Good spelling, don't worry....

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #52 - April 01, 2009, 05:25 PM

    _____________________________

    Again: Roll Eyes


    BMZ Reply # 3
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=4828.msg123219#msg123219
    Quote
    First, one should know how Muslims read and understand Qur'aan. They read and study it in the order it has been compiled.

    BMZ Reply # 5

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=4828.msg123551#msg123551
    Quote
    I never said that Qur'aan talks about compilation   and the order, etc. Did I? If I did, please show me where did I say so?

     

    Laughs?. Quran was the only source of reference that is approved in the debate. BMZ first claimed of Quran?s compilation but when SNB asked for its evidence, instead of thumbing Quran and proving his case BMZ contradicts again.

    So, what?s up? Wink

    KF




    I don't see a contradiction here:
    Muslims read the Quran in the order it was compiled (not the order dictated to Mohammed pbuh). And the Quran does not talk about it's own compilation.

    BSmileyB


    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #53 - April 01, 2009, 05:35 PM

    Has the time to advise skynightblaze to move on come now? Smiley

    I am asking this only because BMZ has contradicted himself and painted himself in such a corner that it seems extremely difficult for him to escape from it. His latest post contains nothing new, IMHO, which asks for a rebuttal.

    What is the opinion of veterans of COEM?

    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #54 - April 01, 2009, 05:41 PM

    Quote

    He first asserted that (kursi) is intangible, (Arsh) is tangible, but then somehow he changed his view..!!



    Not seeing that either.

    This is what he said:

    "The word Throne does not mean a chair in the verse. although the word Kursi does mean a chair. That is the choice of some translators, not all, in English
    The verse is not talking about any throne. Kursee-yehee (His chair or His Throne) in the verse means His power, dominion, reach, control and government. "


    From that I understand that Kursi or Kursee-yehee can be tangible or intangible (chair or domain)

    He later says:

    "The word Arsh when mentioned alone would mean the Throne, the Seat of His Power.

    If Arsh is written as Arshahu, literally meaning His Throne, in a specific verse, it would mean exactly as Kurseeyehee, i.e., power, reach, dominion, government or control, etc., "


    Arsh is tangible (chair)
    Arshahu is intangible (domain)

    That is what I understood and I see no contradiction.


    BShockedB

    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #55 - April 01, 2009, 05:44 PM

    Has the time to advise skynightblaze to move on come now? Smiley

    I am asking this only because BMZ has contradicted himself and painted himself in such a corner that it seems extremely difficult for him to escape from it. His latest post contains nothing new, IMHO, which asks for a rebuttal.

    What is the opinion of veterans of COEM?

    I don't want to discourage anybody, but I think Skynight could have chosen a better topic. There are so many better Quranic contradictions that I can think of.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #56 - April 01, 2009, 05:45 PM

    Quote
    Arsh is tangible (chair)
    Arshahu is intangible (domain)

    That is what I understood and I see no contradiction.


    That contradicts one of his earlier posts, Bob.  But more importantly, it is incorrect according to Emerald, for whom Arabic is his first language.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #57 - April 01, 2009, 05:53 PM

    Has the time to advise skynightblaze to move on come now? Smiley

    I am asking this only because BMZ has contradicted himself and painted himself in such a corner that it seems extremely difficult for him to escape from it. His latest post contains nothing new, IMHO, which asks for a rebuttal.

    What is the opinion of veterans of COEM?

    I don't want to discourage anybody, but I think Skynight could have chosen a better topic. There are so many better Quranic contradictions that I can think of.


    I agree with you. But even with such a weak topic, we can all see how BMZ is faring. Is this BMZ's fault or weakness? I don't think so.

    Actually the contradictions are so numerous and glaring that it is difficult to decide which are the better ones; it ultimately boils down to a person's personal likings Smiley

    Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
    Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #58 - April 01, 2009, 06:12 PM

    ___________________________

    Now it is more interesting:  See:

    BMZ Reply # 3
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=4828.msg123219#msg123219
    Quote
    The verse is not talking about any throne. Kursee-yehee (His chair or His Throne) in the verse means His power, dominion, reach, control and government.


    The same BMZ Reply # 5
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=4828.msg123551#msg123551
    Quote
    By now, it should be clear to you that Arsh does not mean power or dominion, etc. Arsh simply is Allah's area from where Allah operates. This is as simple as I can put. I do not know how it looks like. No one does, haven't been there yet.



    What is going on?Huh?

    KF

    =============

    KF, what's wrong with the quoted?

    I think BMZ deals with arsh and kursi as 2 different things, one is tangible other ain't....(b4 he came and added that arsh could be intangible too..)


    Hi Emerald, sorry for this late response. I saw your post but had to move before I could answer.

    Now: Kursi and Arsh when these both deal with Allah, they are synonymous. Allah's Kursi means his Arsh. I felt it like BMZ too considers both as one and the same. Hence the contradiction. He dropped his earlier argument to embark on Allah's throne (be it Kursi or Arsh) is a tangible stuff.

    Now, it is up to SNB to prove his contention there is something wrong with human beings seeing angels surrounding such a huuuuuuge throne. He must have his arguments, so let him come up with.

    Regds
    KF
  • Re: BMZ and Skynightblaze
     Reply #59 - April 01, 2009, 06:39 PM

    I have to say this, the word arsh (arş in Turkish) sounds exactly like the German word Arsch, which means ass. Cheesy

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
    Wikis: en de fr ar tr
    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Previous page 1 23 4 ... 9 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »