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Theme Changer

 Topic: Nice things about Islam and Muslim culture.

 (Read 56051 times)
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  • Re: Nice things about Islam and Muslim culture.
     Reply #120 - April 04, 2009, 12:09 PM

    Hesperado,

    Do you accept that every man is a potential rapist?  

    Not sure if you are a right wing to the extent that you share sympathies for white supremacists, or if you are completely paranoid of Muslims, in the same way we see Nazis.  It would help if you could answer a question for me - what percentage of todays muslims do you see CURRENTLY as a threat to your life if they were in your vicinity (I accept that you believe that your real fear is that they could all turn that way or we are unable to distinguish between them)

    In order to see through the "I'm alright Jack" argument, I'd like to choose an example close to your heart, as opposed to ours.

    If the world agreed that the real source of evil was Americans because of their abuse of power, and people like George Bush & redneck america, and all Americans not indigenous to the USA (i.e. all non red indians) were going to be deported, would you agree?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Nice things about Islam and Muslim culture.
     Reply #121 - April 04, 2009, 12:12 PM

    I love it when extremists start ranting about the dangers of other extremists. It makes me feel all warm and good inside. parrot

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Nice things about Islam and Muslim culture.
     Reply #122 - April 04, 2009, 12:28 PM

    I love it when extremists start ranting about the dangers of other extremists. It makes me feel all warm and good inside. parrot

    Good point, he probably cant see that they wear the same clothes as he does, just in different shades.  That is where the problem lies, not which particular ideology or vehicle people use to carry it through.

    Analogy:  if a man had just finished torturing, raping, and eating the flesh of your beloved mother, and had created an objectively aesthetically beautiful artwork made out of your mother's blood and flesh on the wall, would you bother to note that it was admirable or beautiful?  Of course not.  The case with Islam is even worse than my analogy. 

    What a poor, biased & manipulated analogy to prove your point. 

    I see the connection with a bad person producing a work of art, and whether it should be appeciated - it is a debate that could be had.  If you had stopped at this point I would seen where you were coming from. However in your analogy you used to describe the blood & flesh as the art itself, and if we could appreciate something this sick to prove a point.  wacko

    Is this the way your mind works?  If it is, then it does not surprise me that you believe in what you do. I wouldnt put anything beyond your comprehension given the tunnelvision you displayed in this example.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Nice things about Islam and Muslim culture.
     Reply #123 - April 04, 2009, 01:33 PM

    Quote from: IsLame
    Good point, he probably cant see that they wear the same clothes as he does, just in different shades.


    Sheikh Hillaly - immodestly dressed women are uncovered meat.

    Hesperado - muslim extremists are poisoned meat.

    Its amazing the similarity in language used by bigots about the groups against whom they wish to practise apartheid.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Nice things about Islam and Muslim culture.
     Reply #124 - April 04, 2009, 08:07 PM

    Quote from: IsLame
    Good point, he probably cant see that they wear the same clothes as he does, just in different shades.


    Sheikh Hillaly - immodestly dressed women are uncovered meat.

    Hesperado - muslim extremists are poisoned meat.


    I may not agree with him but he never said that.

    Its amazing the similarity in language used by bigots about the groups against whom they wish to practise apartheid.

     
    That just may be since Muslims practice separating themselves from the rest of humanity as a matter of course. Many of those who consider themselves very anti-Islamic and view the segregation of Muslims from the rest of humanity as necessary have already had most of that done for them by Muslims. In fact, many who do call for such measures do so very unwillingly and with great hesitation so it's a bit of a stretch to portray them as eager advocates. In my opinion, the use of the word "apartheid" is most accurate when describing conditions be used for the former situation in South Africa. Outside of that context it's used by many a silly bugger to vent adolescent rages so I don't use it. A bit like calling neo-conservatives names such as "Nazis" or "fascists".
  • Re: Nice things about Islam and Muslim culture.
     Reply #125 - April 04, 2009, 08:23 PM

    I love it when extremists start ranting about the dangers of other extremists. It makes me feel all warm and good inside. parrot

    Good point, he probably cant see that they wear the same clothes as he does, just in different shades.  That is where the problem lies, not which particular ideology or vehicle people use to carry it through.

    Analogy:  if a man had just finished torturing, raping, and eating the flesh of your beloved mother, and had created an objectively aesthetically beautiful artwork made out of your mother's blood and flesh on the wall, would you bother to note that it was admirable or beautiful?  Of course not.  The case with Islam is even worse than my analogy. 

    What a poor, biased & manipulated analogy to prove your point. 

    I see the connection with a bad person producing a work of art, and whether it should be appeciated - it is a debate that could be had.  If you had stopped at this point I would seen where you were coming from. However in your analogy you used to describe the blood & flesh as the art itself, and if we could appreciate something this sick to prove a point.  wacko

    Is this the way your mind works?  If it is, then it does not surprise me that you believe in what you do. I wouldnt put anything beyond your comprehension given the tunnelvision you displayed in this example.


    Actually, it's not that far removed from reality.

    I bet if you searched Ottoman archives pertaining to their attempted subjugation of the Serbs you might find quotes from Turkish administrators of the Balkans expressing great pleasure with the results of the Nis skull tower. It certainly has an aesthetic effect and well . . . beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Roll Eyes
  • Re: Nice things about Islam and Muslim culture.
     Reply #126 - April 04, 2009, 08:43 PM

    Quote from: Ansar al-Zindiqi
    It certainly has an aesthetic effect and well . . . beauty is in the eye of the beholder

    ...which is probably the summary of the entire thread.  Wink

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Nice things about Islam and Muslim culture.
     Reply #127 - April 04, 2009, 08:57 PM

    And ignores the earlier point about the Taj Mahal. Regardless of who built the thing and why (although in the case of the Taj the why is rather sweet, if somewhat over the top) the Taj is not the Nis tower and the Taj is not at all repulsive to anyone as far as I know.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Nice things about Islam and Muslim culture.
     Reply #128 - April 04, 2009, 09:05 PM

    "please exercise your scintillating intellect enough to work out how to use the quote button."

    A couple of others have also mentioned this.

    I know how to use this type of quote button; I just don't like it aesthetically.

    How can we tell the difference between harmless Muslims, and dangerous Muslims?
  • Re: Nice things about Islam and Muslim culture.
     Reply #129 - April 04, 2009, 09:12 PM

    Well if you know how to use it then please do so, because it makes threads a lot easier to follow. That is why it is provided.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Nice things about Islam and Muslim culture.
     Reply #130 - April 04, 2009, 09:31 PM

    Islame,

    "It would help if you could answer a question for me - what percentage of todays muslims do you see CURRENTLY as a threat to your life if they were in your vicinity (I accept that you believe that your real fear is that they could all turn that way or we are unable to distinguish between them)"

    Your parenthetical part answers your question.  Since I have no way of knowing which is which, I rationally assume all are a threat.  This is a statistical point whose principle applies in all situations where some factor, amid a general phenomenon, poses a threat of some kind.  In terms of this principle, we can divide instances of this roughly into two categories:

    1) where it would be irrational to apply the broad brush

    2) where it is arguably rational to apply the broad brush.

    In #1, an example would be the dangers of air travel, where planes have malfunctioned and crashed.  The person who has a phobia about flying knows that most planes will not crash, but that doesn't assuage his fear that his plane might be the one to crash -- so he applies the broad brush approach to all planes. 

    The crucial question here is what factors arguably warrant treating a particular phenomenon with the broad brush approach, even though that phenomenon superficially resembles the cases where statistically the threat potential is not sufficiently high enough to warrant such a broad brush approach?  With the phenomenon of the problem of Muslims, the ostensible fact is that out of approximately 1.2 billion Muslims, hundreds of millions of them are not doing anything directly dangerous to non-Muslims.  If a person were to stop there and not research the phenomenon further, and simply conclude that the threat is exactly as minuscule as it appears on the surface, he would be behaving remarkably irrationally in my estimation after having researched the phenomenon further myself.  This is a complex issue.  For now, I will just say that the assessment of the threat of a phenomenon has to factor in qualitative factors, not just superficially quantitative factors.

    "If the world agreed that the real source of evil was Americans because of their abuse of power, and people like George Bush & redneck america, and all Americans not indigenous to the USA (i.e. all non red indians) were going to be deported, would you agree?"

    I would have to agree with the world opinion in your analogy before I would agree to deport all Americans.  That opinion furthermore would seem to conflate all Americans with just the rednecks.  There is virtually no indication that blue state liberals could possibly be red state rednecks in clever disguise -- indeed, millions of American liberals agree with that world opinion!  So that implication that all Americans must be deported would be highly irrational. 


    How can we tell the difference between harmless Muslims, and dangerous Muslims?
  • Re: Nice things about Islam and Muslim culture.
     Reply #131 - April 04, 2009, 09:50 PM

    I was after a percentage, as I would like to guage the % of muslims you currently see as a threat.  The parenthetical part was written to avoid you using at as an answer.  I could give you a figure at a guess, and would like to see your answer to see if it is grossly different as you probably have not been surrounded like I have. 

    This might explain why you feel so differently, or whether it is a general life stance i.e. problems must be eliminated at all costs, or whether you are extrememly right wing and can empathise on some level with white supremacists.  I fear that the answer is the last one, as it was the only question you did not attempt to answer.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Nice things about Islam and Muslim culture.
     Reply #132 - April 04, 2009, 10:12 PM

    Islame,

    "It would help if you could answer a question for me - what percentage of todays muslims do you see CURRENTLY as a threat to your life if they were in your vicinity (I accept that you believe that your real fear is that they could all turn that way or we are unable to distinguish between them)"

    Your parenthetical part answers your question.  Since I have no way of knowing which is which, I rationally assume all are a threat.

    Ok, this is awesome. Let's take it another step: over here we had this thing known as the Port Arthur massacre. This involved a young, white, blonde surfer going nuts with automatic weapons. Obviously some young, white, blonde surfers are dangerous.

    Since I have no way of telling in advance which particular young, white, blonde surfers are dangerous it would be "rational" for me to assume (by your standards, of course) that all young, white, blonde surfers are dangerous.

    They should obviously be denied all access to firearms, and should preferably be deported. The fact that the majority of them do not appear to condone massacres committed with automatic weapons is meaningless, for the sneaky critters may well be engaging in taqqiya. You can't tell.  cool2


    This is a statistical point whose principle applies in all situations where some factor, amid a general phenomenon, poses a threat of some kind.  In terms of this principle, we can divide instances of this roughly into two categories:

    1) where it would be irrational to apply the broad brush

    2) where it is arguably rational to apply the broad brush.

    In #1, an example would be the dangers of air travel, where planes have malfunctioned and crashed.  The person who has a phobia about flying knows that most planes will not crash, but that doesn't assuage his fear that his plane might be the one to crash -- so he applies the broad brush approach to all planes. 

    The crucial question here is what factors arguably warrant treating a particular phenomenon with the broad brush approach, even though that phenomenon superficially resembles the cases where statistically the threat potential is not sufficiently high enough to warrant such a broad brush approach?  With the phenomenon of the problem of Muslims, the ostensible fact is that out of approximately 1.2 billion Muslims, hundreds of millions of them are not doing anything directly dangerous to non-Muslims.  If a person were to stop there and not research the phenomenon further, and simply conclude that the threat is exactly as minuscule as it appears on the surface, he would be behaving remarkably irrationally in my estimation after having researched the phenomenon further myself.  This is a complex issue.  For now, I will just say that the assessment of the threat of a phenomenon has to factor in qualitative factors, not just superficially quantitative factors.

    Ok, but one of the qualitative factors that you have to consider, and which you seem remarkably averse to considering, is that the majority of Muslims have no interest in becoming terrorists. I agree that this is deplorably lax of them and they should be more enthusiastic, but what can you do?

    Let's take your example of air travel. You say it is irrational to fear all air travel because the majority of flights don't end in disaster. You then turn around and claim that all Muslims must be regarded with suspicion and deported, despite the fact that the vast majority of interactions with Muslims don't end in disaster. Why is the former irrational and the latter rational, in your opinion?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Nice things about Islam and Muslim culture.
     Reply #133 - April 04, 2009, 10:35 PM

    Ok, this is awesome. Let's take it another step: over here we had this thing known as the Port Arthur massacre. This involved a young, white, blonde surfer going nuts with automatic weapons. Obviously some young, white, blonde surfers are dangerous.

    Since I have no way of telling in advance which particular young, white, blonde surfers are dangerous it would be "rational" for me to assume (by your standards, of course) that all young, white, blonde surfers are dangerous.

    They should obviously be denied all access to firearms, and should preferably be deported. The fact that the majority of them do not appear to condone massacres committed with automatic weapons is meaningless, for the sneaky critters may well be engaging in taqqiya. You can't tell.  cool2


    Okay, way off topic, but as to the bolded parts:

    1. The L1A1 SLR and AR-15 used by that dude were semi-auto, if I'm not mistaken. "Automatic weapons" normally means full-auto.

    2. The federal and state governments of Australia did in fact overreact and banned all semi-auto rifles, shotguns and pump shotguns, including a "buyback" program that amounted to mandatory but compensated confiscation.

    fuck you
  • Re: Nice things about Islam and Muslim culture.
     Reply #134 - April 04, 2009, 10:39 PM

    I can't remember if they were full auto or semi but whatever. Also it's debatable if it was an overreaction. Australia seems to be doing just fine without those weapons in circulation.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Nice things about Islam and Muslim culture.
     Reply #135 - April 04, 2009, 11:50 PM

    Quote from: Ansar
    I may not agree with him but he never said that.


    Is that right, Ansar?  This must be a completely different Hesperado then.

    Quote from: Hesperado
    Consider this analogy: a few people in a region succumb to food poisoning due to bad beef. What does any efficient Western government do in this circumstance? Do they issue statements saying, "Not all beef is dangerous, most beef is moderate!" or "I know many hamburgers, and they are very nice and polite and they wouldn't hurt a fly!" or "If we could only try to show beef what is wrong with being bad, they might change and stop being poisonous!" No of course not. What they do is they shut down ALL beef in that region, even knowing that logically, most of the beef is probably harmless. Why do they do this? For the unremarkably rational reason that they cannot discern the difference between the deadly beef and the harmless beef with sufficient reliability to protect the public.

    Same goes for Muslims.


    http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?p=25136#p25136

    Quote from: Ansar
    In my opinion, the use of the word "apartheid" is most accurate when describing conditions be used for the former situation in South Africa. Outside of that context it's used by many a silly bugger to vent adolescent rages so I don't use it. A bit like calling neo-conservatives names such as "Nazis" or "fascists".


    Do you know what?  I totally agree with you, especially the bolded part.  It is indeed used by silly buggers to vent adolescent rages.  Well said Ansar........

    Quote from: Hesperado
    I support a policy of Global Apartheid, whereby we separate Muslims from the rest of the world, forcing Muslims to stay within the "Muslim world" (basically Indonesia all the way to Morocco) -- but I don't think Buchanan believes in doing the tough things that will be necessary to bring this about.

    It will require mass deportation of the millions of Muslims already in the West. And by the time the West is ready to do this -- probably many years from now since the West is so deeply PC it will take that long -- there will be millions more Muslims deep within the West.

    Buchanan would never support mass deportation. Therefore, he's incoherent. He has no practical way to actually realize his purported solution.


    http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?p=25774#p25774

     whistling2




    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Nice things about Islam and Muslim culture.
     Reply #136 - April 05, 2009, 12:23 AM

    over here we had this thing known as the Port Arthur massacre. This involved a young, white, blonde surfer going nuts with automatic weapons. Obviously some young, white, blonde surfers are dangerous.

    Since I have no way of telling in advance which particular young, white, blonde surfers are dangerous it would be "rational" for me to assume (by your standards, of course) that all young, white, blonde surfers are dangerous.


    Your counter-analogy is not including certain qualitative factors that apply with the problem of Muslims, but do not apply with the problem of young white blonde surfers (YWBS):

    1) YWBS do not belong to a trans-national ideology that is

    a) 1400 years old,

    b) spread out all over the world with over a billion followers

    c) displays enormous capabilities of motivating its members to believe and to do things all around the world

    d) has played important roles in motivating amongst its followers thousands of instances of violence and/or extremist behaviors and speech in the last 25 years -- increasing with each passing year -- not to mention motivating such things amongst its followers for 1400 years.

    2) YWBS do not belong to a trans-national ideology whose millions of followers according to polls show disturbingly high numbers who support extremist ideas, such as support for Sharia, support for terrorist attacks, support for a return of the Caliphate, etc. -- extremist ideas that arguably help to nourish psychologically and sociologically the development of terrorism as an expression of Islamic values against their perennial Bogeymen, the "Christians" and the Jews, the "Crusaders", the Idolators, Those Who Are Attacking Islam, etc. etc.

    This is not a complete description of the qualtitative factors that differentiate your analogy from Muslims.  There is also the massive quantitative disparity between YWBS and Muslims of violence perpetrated by either group around the world, which by itself makes a mockery of your counter-analogy. 

    Much more can be adduced, but this should do for now to demonstrate the poverty of your counter-analogy.

    How can we tell the difference between harmless Muslims, and dangerous Muslims?
  • Re: Nice things about Islam and Muslim culture.
     Reply #137 - April 05, 2009, 12:54 AM

    Your counter-analogy is not including certain qualitative factors that apply with the problem of Muslims, but do not apply with the problem of young white blonde surfers (YWBS):

    1) YWBS do not belong to a trans-national ideology that is

    a) 1400 years old,

    b) spread out all over the world with over a billion followers

    Actually YWBS do belong to a transnational ideology of sorts, although it is not 1,400 years old.


    Quote
    c) displays enormous capabilities of motivating its members to believe and to do things all around the world

    A lot of YWBS do seem to be very motivated to spread their culture and act according to it.


    Quote
    d) has played important roles in motivating amongst its followers thousands of instances of violence and/or extremist behaviors and speech in the last 25 years -- increasing with each passing year -- not to mention motivating such things amongst its followers for 1400 years.

    Cool. Check out the history of non-Muslim violence over the past 1,400 years. It isn't a small list.


    Quote
    2) YWBS do not belong to a trans-national ideology whose millions of followers according to polls show disturbingly high numbers who support extremist ideas, such as support for Sharia, support for terrorist attacks, support for a return of the Caliphate, etc. -- extremist ideas that arguably help to nourish psychologically and sociologically the development of terrorism as an expression of Islamic values against their perennial Bogeymen, the "Christians" and the Jews, the "Crusaders", the Idolators, Those Who Are Attacking Islam, etc. etc.

    Speaking of perennial bogeymen, it isn't hard to figure out who your's are. As for extremist ideas and support for them, you have shown a disturbing predilection for such things yourself.


    Quote
    This is not a complete description of the qualtitative factors that differentiate your analogy from Muslims.  There is also the massive quantitative disparity between YWBS and Muslims of violence perpetrated by either group around the world, which by itself makes a mockery of your counter-analogy.

    In comparison to the number of Muslims in the world what is the number of YWBS in the world, and on a statistical basis how likely are members of the respective groups likely to commit acts of violence?  

    Quote
    Much more can be adduced, but this should do for now to demonstrate the poverty of your counter-analogy.

    Wonderful. Adduce away.

     Now how about responding to my question about air travel. I notice that you avoided that bit.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Nice things about Islam and Muslim culture.
     Reply #138 - April 05, 2009, 01:01 AM

    Cheetah,

    I doubt that if I dressed up my position of deportation of Muslims in more palatably PC language it would make any difference to people who strongly oppose it. 

    I have another term I use, an "Iron Veil" -- i.e., the West should set up something like the Iron Curtain, only this time it would function in reverse:  when the Soviet Union had its Iron Curtain, it was to prevent people from escaping an oppressive regime.  The "Iron Veil", on the other hand, would be set up to prevent people who believe in oppressive regimes and seditious ideas (i.e., Sharia) from infiltrating out of their lands into ours.

    But I doubt that "Iron Veil" -- or even if I called it "The Purple Orchid Project with Sugar and Spice" -- would make a difference to those who oppose the content of my position.

    How can we tell the difference between harmless Muslims, and dangerous Muslims?
  • Re: Nice things about Islam and Muslim culture.
     Reply #139 - April 05, 2009, 01:23 AM

    You were not talking about "filtering into" but of "forcible mass deportation from". There is rather a difference.

    Also, how do you respond to the point about non and/or ex-Muslims? If you are going to forcibly deport all Muslims, and you don't trust any of them, then how are you going to tell which ones are no longer Muslims? Do you intend to forcibly deport all ex-Muslims in the same train or not?

    If yes, how do you justify this? If not, how do you intend to tell the difference?

    Furthermore, given the posts you made at FFI and which Cheetah has so kindly quoted for our benefit, surely you would have to agree that by your own standards one violent YWBS constitutes an example of "toxic beef" and therefore all YWBS should be treated as if they were dangerous. Surely you wouldn't want to leave such deadly menaces to our society roaming free.
     

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Nice things about Islam and Muslim culture.
     Reply #140 - April 05, 2009, 01:38 AM

    Quote from: Hesperado
    I doubt that if I dressed up my position of deportation of Muslims in more palatably PC language it would make any difference to people who strongly oppose it.


    If Sheikh Hillaly dressed his opinion that unveiled women who get raped are largely responsible for it in "palatable PC language" it wouldn't make any difference to those who oppose it either, and with good reason.  It would still be a disgusting opinion. 

    You and Hillaly are two of a kind, you both reach for analogies which reduce large groups of people to the level of meat.  And I'm betting you really don't know why that is so damaging to your credibility - lemme guess, you think its a mere matter of politically correct language, rather than a fatal flaw in the content of your worldview.

    Quote
    I have another term I use, an "Iron Veil" -- i.e., the West should set up something like the Iron Curtain, only this time it would function in reverse:  when the Soviet Union had its Iron Curtain, it was to prevent people from escaping an oppressive regime.  The "Iron Veil", on the other hand, would be set up to prevent people who believe in oppressive regimes and seditious ideas (i.e., Sharia) from infiltrating out of their lands into ours.


    Yes, and in the process it would also stop people from escaping from oppressive regimes.

    Quote
    But I doubt that "Iron Veil" -- or even if I called it "The Purple Orchid Project with Sugar and Spice" -- would make a difference to those who oppose the content of my position.


    Not to anyone with enough brains to understand the content of your thought it wouldn't, no.  Just as a rose by any other name would smell as sweet, bigoted horseshit stinks just as rotten no matter what flowery language you use to articulate it.





    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Nice things about Islam and Muslim culture.
     Reply #141 - April 05, 2009, 02:00 AM

    one of the qualitative factors that you have to consider, and which you seem remarkably averse to considering, is that the majority of Muslims have no interest in becoming terrorists.


    You have no way of knowing what hundreds of millions of people "have an interest" in being.  Nobody knows this.  It requires knowing what's in their minds.  It is a broad assumption, not a fact.

    Secondly, even if that assumption is arguably true (as opposed to being factually true), it is a piece of information that does not do us much good, if we cannot tell, with sufficient reliability, which Muslims are the harmless ones, and which are the dangerous ones.  This becomes an important problem when we know about the prevalence of Islamic fanaticism, supremacism, hatred and paranoid suspicion of others, and deception in order to further jihad.



    How can we tell the difference between harmless Muslims, and dangerous Muslims?
  • Re: Nice things about Islam and Muslim culture.
     Reply #142 - April 05, 2009, 02:09 AM

    I love your amusing predilection for contradicting yourself.  grin12

    Oi, dude, cop a snort of this:

    You have no way of knowing what hundreds of millions of people "have an interest" in being.  Nobody knows this.



    ......we know about the prevalence of Islamic fanaticism, supremacism, hatred and paranoid suspicion of others, and deception in order to further jihad.

    So, on the one hand people who disagree with you cannot know anything regarding the topics they opine on due to insufficient information, but on the other hand you apparently know with great certainty the prevalence of all sorts of nastiness. Interesting.

    Tell me, how exactly do you know what hundreds of millions of other people are thinking?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Nice things about Islam and Muslim culture.
     Reply #143 - April 05, 2009, 03:00 AM

    Cheetah,

    The difference between Hilaly's analogy and mine is that his is based upon the idea that when women who wear un-Islamic clothing get raped, it's the women's fault.  Mine is based on not knowing which Muslims are harmless and which are dangerous.  I already acknowledged that millions of Muslims are likely harmless, and to that I would add nice and warm and fuzzy people.  But that likelihood does us little good when the innumerable Muslims among them who want to do us harm cannot be pinpointed with sufficient reliability.  My analogy is based on a rational calculus.  My calculus could be flawed.  But its premise is not a morally repellant denigration of a wide swath of people as is Hilaly's.  It would be if I said I want to deport Muslims because they smell or I don't like them, etc.  That's not why I want to deport them.

    How can we tell the difference between harmless Muslims, and dangerous Muslims?
  • Re: Nice things about Islam and Muslim culture.
     Reply #144 - April 05, 2009, 03:15 AM

    Quote from: Ansar al-Zindiqi
    It certainly has an aesthetic effect and well . . . beauty is in the eye of the beholder

    ...which is probably the summary of the entire thread.  Wink

    And ignores the earlier point about the Taj Mahal. Regardless of who built the thing and why (although in the case of the Taj the why is rather sweet, if somewhat over the top) the Taj is not the Nis tower and the Taj is not at all repulsive to anyone as far as I know.

    http://id.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070608111454AAP96iz

    www.hindujagruti.org/news/index.php?print/id:3983,pdf:1

    It most likely that there are many more Indians who fully understand that a lot of slave labour went into building the thing. These building projects required a lot of manpower in a time when unions and human rights were not even considered at all. Especially by the Muslim rulers of India and in this case the guy who commissioned it was a foreigner.  Good ol' Shah Jahan. Roll Eyes At least he may have understood that his beloved had died after giving birth to her fourteenth child.

    Even Nikita Khruschev hypocritically understood that the Taj Mahal was built by slave labor which resulted in  thousands of deaths. Sure, it is truly a beautiful structure and much is made of the story of love behind it but someone like me has a tendency to ponder the human costs. The love story behind it is great for tourist brochures and other things but it sure is a mega-project that speaks of one man's vanity. It's great to peddle a love story of two aristocrats but why should a story of love blind later generations to what was done in order to build the thing?

    To top it off there was going to be an identical structure in black marble but it never went beyond the preliminary stages. That would have meant double the beauty and majesty as well as double the death rate. So there you have it. It should be expected of me since I'm a goddamn anarchist who engaged in labour organizing in my younger years. We tend to be able to look beyond the exterior appearances and oftentimes find something that reveals horrible truths.

    It's a risk to understand this human cost and say so openly at dinner parties when even the likes of Carl Jung (who prided himself on being considered a crypto-Muslim) got away with this delusional quote:

    In the essay "The Dreamlike World of India", he says this after remarking about Hinduism and the Indian countryside he states:

    Quote
    In comparison, Islam seems to be a superior, more spiritual and more advanced religion. Its mosques are pure and beautiful, and of course wholly Asiatic. There is not much mind about it, not a great deal of feeling. The cult is one wailing cry for the all-Merciful. It is a desire, an ardent longing and even a greed for God; I would not call it love. But there is love, the most poetic, most exquisite love of beauty in these old Moguls ... I marvel at that love which discovered the genius of Shah Jehan and used it as an instrument of self-realization. This is the one place in the world where the - alas - all too invisible and all too jealously guarded beauty of the Islamic Eros has been revealed by a well-nigh divine miracle... The Taj Mahal is a revelation. It is thoroughly un-Indian. It is more like a plant that could thrive and flower in the rich Indian earth as it could nowhere else. It is Eros in its purest form; There is nothing mysterious nothing symbolic about it... the Taj Mahal is the secret of Islam...(p.519-20)

    C.G. Jung, "The Dreamlike World of India" in Collected Works, V10.


    I might not like the hard truth behind the "magnificance" of the Taj Mahal but then again I'm not like the jihadis who entertain the thought of bringing it down once and for all.
  • Re: Nice things about Islam and Muslim culture.
     Reply #145 - April 05, 2009, 03:20 AM

    Quote from: Ansar
    I may not agree with him but he never said that.


    Is that right, Ansar?  This must be a completely different Hesperado then.


    Fair enough. You got me on that one. At least Hesperado left the cats out of it. grin12
  • Re: Nice things about Islam and Muslim culture.
     Reply #146 - April 05, 2009, 03:23 AM

    Quote from: Hesparado
    The difference between Hilaly's analogy and mine is


    The similarities are more telling than the differences.  I already know the differences you pointed out, the rest of your post was preaching to the choir.  But  you don't seem to recognize your own reflection when it has a beard and a Qur'an under its arm.

    You both think analogies which reduce people to meat are appropriate to make your point.  You both think it is trivial, or maybe even non-existent, that there is a difference between meat and the groups of people you are talking about.

    Hillaly doesn't recognise that meat doesn't suffer when a cat eats it.  Meat is already dead.  You don't recognise that meat doesn't suffer when it is taken off the market and destroyed,  because it is just dead meat.  And of course neither of you realise the more important distinction between people and sides of beef.

    Neither you nor your Islamic mirror image recognise that, unlike lumps of meat, human beings have, among other things, the right to be considered innocent until proven guilty.  You strip that part of human rights away from muslims and reduce them to meat, some of which are poisoned and some not.  Within that paradigm it becomes perfectly logical to consider the rights of humans only, and destroy - or otherwise dispose of -  all the meat.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Nice things about Islam and Muslim culture.
     Reply #147 - April 05, 2009, 03:41 AM

    "You both think analogies which reduce people to meat"

    I'm not reducing people to meat.  My analogy was about the problem of situations where we do not know which categories are harmful and which are dangerous, and what do we do about those situations.  You are indulging in a common logical fallacy of imputing too much literalness to the analogy.

    How can we tell the difference between harmless Muslims, and dangerous Muslims?
  • Re: Nice things about Islam and Muslim culture.
     Reply #148 - April 05, 2009, 04:06 AM

    Quote
    You are indulging in a common logical fallacy of imputing too much literalness to the analogy.


    I am going to quote and refute your last post out of the sequence in which it was made.  Why?  Because you have stooped to possibly one of the most pathetic of all logical fallacies, ie quote mining.  You had to stoop that low to make any come back at all.   Roll Eyes

    Here is my actual quote...

    Quote
    You both think analogies which reduce people to meat are appropriate to make your point.


    Here is your quote mine of it...

    Quote
    You both think analogies which reduce people to meat


    Your half sentence quote would of course make it sound sensible for you to refute it with...

    Quote
    'm not reducing people to meat.


    Unfortunately for you, I never accused you of reducing people to meat.  I said you, and your Sheikh mirror image, both reach for analogies which depend on an equivalence between your "other" and meat.  That is how you both manage to bypass the myriad logical fallacies, not to mention ethical gulfs, in the paradigms you present.

    Quote
    My analogy was about the problem of situations where we do not know which categories are harmful and which are dangerous, and what do we do about those situations


    I know what your analogy was about, and I know what Hillaly's was about.  You are both working from the same bigoted paradigms,  which fail to take into account either the humanity, or the human rights, of the groups of people you are so determined to pontificate about. 

    IOW, your underlying personality types are very much alike, even though your rationalisations and ideologies may be widely diverging. 





    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Nice things about Islam and Muslim culture.
     Reply #149 - April 05, 2009, 07:14 AM

    Quote from: Ansar al-Zindiqi
    Even Nikita Khruschev hypocritically understood that the Taj Mahal was built by slave labor which resulted in  thousands of deaths. Sure, it is truly a beautiful structure and much is made of the story of love behind it but someone like me has a tendency to ponder the human costs. The love story behind it is great for tourist brochures and other things but it sure is a mega-project that speaks of one man's vanity. It's great to peddle a love story of two aristocrats but why should a story of love blind later generations to what was done in order to build the thing?

    There is nothing I disagree with here. But other civilisations had similar monumental projects carried out at the expense of the greater good and the welfare of the common citizen. Why were the pyramids built? Anything other than to appease the vanity and god complex of some theocratic tyrants? This didn't stop me from admiring the pyramids when I've been to Egypt.

    I am aware that the cultural achievements of "Islamic civilisations" pale in contrast to those of other civilisations, but they nevertheless exist. I am also aware that these cultural and/or scientific achievements (which can never be attributed to the inherent glory of Islam, nor evoked to exonerate Islam from blame) were often carried out despite the opposition of Islamic fundamentalists. So I think our positions are not too divergent.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
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