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 Topic: Welcome to Marleya

 (Read 20592 times)
  • 12 3 4 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Welcome to Marleya
     OP - March 24, 2009, 05:54 PM

    Quote from: Q-Man
    I think you are missing the main point of this story. The lesson is not about marrying virgins. The moral is that camels are lazy, so if you are in a big hurry to get home and bang your wife, you should get a horse, or better yet a Dodge Charger.

    Many of our criticisms of Islam are based on information gleaned from narrations where the important information was only tangential to the topic. Ibn Kathir's commentary about dolls and puberty is another example.

    In fact the Koran mentions sexual relations with pre-pubescent wives just in passing.

    This kind of harmful behaviour was normalized for Muhammad and his companions, so they didn't make a big deal out of it.


    Peace to everybody!
    My name is Marleya,and I am new here.Been reading a little around,and you guys discuss many interesting things.
    I am not an ex muslim,I am muslim,born with a norwegian mother and an african father.

    You use a lot of hadith,when you critize Islam,but you should know there is many of us,who have thrown hadith to the fish,and only use the Quran as guiding.

    Koran never mention sexual relations with pre-pubescent wives.The verse you are talking about is sura 65,vers 4
    where the rules of divorce is layd out.The verse is long,so I will only wright the words you have in mind Aksel

    "and for those women who dont started their period,the iddah(waiting time for remarrying)is also three months for them"

    Here God speak about married womans that dont have their period yet.So,if you read history of us humans,you will find that before in times,we women got our period much later than today.Google it,and you will find it.

    The body has to carry 22% fat on the body,before women will get their menses.Today,because of junk food and others,girls from their are nine can get their menses.
    This was not something that happen before.Women in could get 18-20 years before they got menses.Because of their diet.But this girls were grown ups,in maturity,and therefor they could be married.

    Grown up womens was married,before their menses,thats really how simple it is.

    Historic details show Aischas age to be from 17-19,when she was married to the Prophet.In my hometown,I remember I told them about that hadith,saying that Aisha was six when she married the Prophet,and nine when he slept with her,They are muslims,but never heard that hadith,and thaey couldnt belive me,that it was there.I had to show them,and it maked them very unhappy,because they know for sure that things like that is wrong.

    The Quran states that when people marry,they should be baligh(mature in the brain),when they marry.

    I can not say what makes muslim belive that their Prophet married a six year old girl,a child and called that okey.
    The shias feks do not belive in it,they dont use that hadith.

    Thank you,hope I did not offend anyone,for writing here,not being and ex Smiley

  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #1 - March 24, 2009, 06:00 PM

    Hello Marleya.  No, you didn't offend anybody, and you're very welcome to the forum.   Smiley






    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #2 - March 24, 2009, 06:07 PM

    Thanks marleya!

    fuck you
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #3 - March 24, 2009, 06:15 PM

    Thanks Cheetah and Q-Man.

    I have red many of your posts,both of you,thank you for the nice respons!
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #4 - March 24, 2009, 06:18 PM

    Hello marleya,

    You may want to open your own introduction thread. Welcome.  Afro

    Quote from: marleya
    You use a lot of hadith,when you critize Islam,but you should know there is many of us,who have thrown hadith to the fish,and only use the Quran as guiding.

    This is not always the case, since "Quran Only" Muslims are considered heterodox by mainstream Islam.

    Quote from: marleya
    Historic details show Aischas age to be from 17-19,when she was married to the Prophet.

    Care to elaborate? Also, child marriages are widespread in some Islamic countries, how can this be possible if Aisha was married to Mohammad at the age of 17-19, as you assert?

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #5 - March 24, 2009, 06:48 PM

    Marleya I'm curious about something...

    Quote
    You use a lot of hadith,when you critize Islam,but you should know there is many of us,who have thrown hadith to the fish,and only use the Quran as guiding.


    If you reject hadith and only use the Qur'an as a source, how do you know what age Aisha was when she got married?  Its not mentioned in the Qur'an at all, as far as I know.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #6 - March 24, 2009, 07:00 PM


    Historic details show Aischas age to be from 17-19,when she was married to the Prophet.The Quran states that when people marry,they should be baligh(mature in the brain),when they marry.


    Hello marleya,

    Great you're here.

    Can you explain why is it that details show Ayesha plays with dolls with her friends at 17-19?  Certainly someone who & whose companions are playing with dolls aren't baligh to marry.Seems she & her friends were either children or retarded.

    Obviously neither should be married.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #7 - March 24, 2009, 07:01 PM

    Also, child marriages are widespread in some Islamic countries, how can this be possible if Aisha was married to Mohammad at the age of 17-19, as you assert?


    Differences in interpretation? Seems to me that although Islam is more orthodox, generally speaking, than Christianity or Judaism, it is not entirely homogeneous-- besides sectarian and jurisprudential differences, there are going to be, as in other religions, either cultures or individuals within the faith that will interpret scriptures as best fit their own cultural, social or individual norms. For instance, Islam is practiced quite differently in Bosnia than it is in Afghanistan, despite the fact that both overwhelmingly observe Hanafi fiqh.

    I'd imagine there is an especially great amount of interpretational differences when it comes to hadith. After all, these are various oral traditions, with, like the Bible, different authors. And although I'm not really all that familiar with them, I'd imagine that, like the Bible, you're going to have some conflicting ideas/information/lessons between different authors, so just as you have different Christian sects in different parts of the world who emphasize one lesson in scripture over another lesson (which may seemingly contradict the former), and just as there are different interpretations even within Christian sects or even individual churches, I'd imagine it's similar in Islam.

    fuck you
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #8 - March 24, 2009, 07:07 PM

    Hello marleya,

    You may want to open your own introduction thread. Welcome.  Afro

    Quote from: marleya
    You use a lot of hadith,when you critize Islam,but you should know there is many of us,who have thrown hadith to the fish,and only use the Quran as guiding.

    This is not always the case, since "Quran Only" Muslims are considered heterodox by mainstream Islam.

    Quote from: marleya
    Historic details show Aischas age to be from 17-19,when she was married to the Prophet.

    Care to elaborate? Also, child marriages are widespread in some Islamic countries, how can this be possible if Aisha was married to Mohammad at the age of 17-19, as you assert?


    Thank you Zaephon.

    I know that the Quran alone is looked at as kafir by mainstream Islam( hadith idolaters.)
    I hope it will change,and in many muslim countries,there is a lot of discussion in to of translations and hadith.Jamal Al-Banna,the brother of Hassan Al-Banna,that started the muslim brotherhood in Egypt,have openly said that many hadith is clearly false,and should be taken out of hadith books.

    Of course Zaephon,I always care to elaborate Smiley

    http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=4604&CATE=1

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRIRmfOsTLg  

    Unfortunately,I am not home,and my internett connection is awfull here.This is just two Zaephon,and it is maybe not what you asked for?

    Hope the links works,they dont make any colour,to indicate that they do,but I hope so.

    Thanks  

  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #9 - March 24, 2009, 07:16 PM

    Marleya I'm curious about something...

    Quote
    You use a lot of hadith,when you critize Islam,but you should know there is many of us,who have thrown hadith to the fish,and only use the Quran as guiding.


    If you reject hadith and only use the Qur'an as a source, how do you know what age Aisha was when she got married?  Its not mentioned in the Qur'an at all, as far as I know.



    Thats because  the Quran,dont speak about child marrige.But beetween the muslim themselves,there is a issue about Aishas age,and historical events that are talked about in the hadith,that show that it is not right age of Aisha,six yearsl old.She was older.
    In the Quran you must be mature,sound of mind and able to understand a marrige contract,so for me,that my Prophet married a six year old girl,would be to go against the Quran.

    Peace
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #10 - March 24, 2009, 07:19 PM


    Historic details show Aischas age to be from 17-19,when she was married to the Prophet.The Quran states that when people marry,they should be baligh(mature in the brain),when they marry.


    Hello marleya,

    Great you're here.

    Can you explain why is it that details show Ayesha plays with dolls with her friends at 17-19?  Certainly someone who & whose companions are playing with dolls aren't baligh to marry.Seems she & her friends were either children or retarded.

    Obviously neither should be married.

    Thank you Rashna.

    I totally agree with you,and dont belive in those hadiths,thay are falsyfied.


  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #11 - March 24, 2009, 07:25 PM

    Marleya I'm curious about something...

    Quote
    You use a lot of hadith,when you critize Islam,but you should know there is many of us,who have thrown hadith to the fish,and only use the Quran as guiding.


    If you reject hadith and only use the Qur'an as a source, how do you know what age Aisha was when she got married?  Its not mentioned in the Qur'an at all, as far as I know.



    Thats because  the Quran,dont speak about child marrige.But beetween the muslim themselves,there is a issue about Aishas age,and historical events that are talked about in the hadith,that show that it is not right age of Aisha,six yearsl old.She was older.
    In the Quran you must be mature,sound of mind and able to understand a marrige contract,so for me,that my Prophet married a six year old girl,would be to go against the Quran.
    Peace



    This is a hadith from the most authentic collection of Bukhari.
    (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) Bukhari 8. 73.151
    Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me.

    A 17-19 year old sound of mind girl & her girlfriends clearly don't play with dolls. A child does, or a girl with Down's Syndrome might. Neither are marrieageable, & its unhealthy for either to be married.

    Its not what you'd like your Prophet to do, but what historical sources claim he did. No doubt Chelsea Clinton would have liked her dad Bill Clinton not to have cheated on her mom & have sex with Monica Lewinsky, but that's what he unfortunately did.
    Our emotional preferences for our loved ones or Prophets are one thing, reality maybe another.

    How can you simply choose one hadith over another, simply because it offends your cherished impression about the Prophet. The Bukhari hadiths show her as a 6 year old at marriage, 9 at consummation & 18 at Mohammed's death. The corresponding ages of Prophet Mohammed also add up perfectly. Also the fact that she was swinging & her mom brought her in to the Prophet & she did not seem to realise what was happening to her, her playing with dolls with her friends, all indicate a very young girl.

    While Muslims have speculated older ages for her, no other age for her & corresponding age for Prophet Mohammed adds up.


    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #12 - March 24, 2009, 08:00 PM

    Marleya I'm curious about something...

    Quote
    You use a lot of hadith,when you critize Islam,but you should know there is many of us,who have thrown hadith to the fish,and only use the Quran as guiding.


    If you reject hadith and only use the Qur'an as a source, how do you know what age Aisha was when she got married?  Its not mentioned in the Qur'an at all, as far as I know.



    Thats because  the Quran,dont speak about child marrige.But beetween the muslim themselves,there is a issue about Aishas age,and historical events that are talked about in the hadith,that show that it is not right age of Aisha,six yearsl old.She was older.
    In the Quran you must be mature,sound of mind and able to understand a marrige contract,so for me,that my Prophet married a six year old girl,would be to go against the Quran.
    Peace



    This is a hadith from the most authentic collection of Bukhari.
    (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) Bukhari 8. 73.151
    Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me.

    A 17-19 year old sound of mind girl & her girlfriends clearly don't play with dolls. A child does, or a girl with Down's Syndrome might. Neither are marrieageable, & its unhealthy for either to be married.

    Its not what you'd like your Prophet to do, but what historical sources claim he did. No doubt Chelsea Clinton would have liked her dad Bill Clinton not to have cheated on her mom & have sex with Monica Lewinsky, but that's what he unfortunately did.
    Our emotional preferences for our loved ones or Prophets are one thing, reality maybe another.

    How can you simply choose one hadith over another, simply because it offends your cherished impression about the Prophet. The Bukhari hadiths show her as a 6 year old at marriage, 9 at consummation & 18 at Mohammed's death. The corresponding ages of Prophet Mohammed also add up perfectly. Also the fact that she was swinging & her mom brought her in to the Prophet & she did not seem to realise what was happening to her, her playing with dolls with her friends, all indicate a very young girl.

    While Muslims have speculated older ages for her, no other age for her & corresponding age for Prophet Mohammed adds up.



    Peace

    Unfortunatley Rashna,the Prophets time is a little longer away than Clinton and Lewinski,and therefor much more difficult,to know what went on,1400 years ago.

    I dont choose one hadith over another,I follow my common sence and my knowledge.
    Quran is clear on marrige,it can not be taken away,a women has to be sound of mind and able to sign a marrige contract.

    Hadith is not from God and the Prophet was against writing anything down after him.It was againt the law,in the first 80 years,after the Prophets dead,to write hadith.
    In the Quran the Prophet say many times that his people has left the Quran,and uphold other laws then God laws.

    How can words that are written long after the Prophets time,the earliest,200 years after,say anything that people can put a trust in,that these words are from the Prophet?

    I dont belive in any hadith that contradicts the Quran,and the common sence.



  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #13 - March 24, 2009, 08:02 PM

    Hi Marleya and welcome! Smiley
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #14 - March 24, 2009, 08:08 PM

    Hi Marleya and welcome! Smiley



    Hi Hassan and thank you so much. yes

  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #15 - March 24, 2009, 08:28 PM


    Thank you,hope I did not offend anyone,for writing here,not being and ex Smiley




    You did not offend anyone.  Welcome, good to see you have joined in the debate.

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #16 - March 24, 2009, 08:31 PM


    Thank you,hope I did not offend anyone,for writing here,not being and ex Smiley




    You did not offend anyone.  Welcome, good to see you have joined in the debate.


    Thank you so much IsLame Smiley
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #17 - March 24, 2009, 10:56 PM

    Salam and welcome marleya. Quite the topic you have chosen to jump right in as a newbie, which is okay, of course - it's your right.

    I used to be like you and thought that the Prophet never could have done such a disgusting thing. That's why I accepted the explanations/apologetics of Muslims, who said those ahadith are unreliable for such and such reasons... However, I still could not stomach the fact that there are Muslims out there, who have no problems accepting the story about the child-bride (even my own mother does :(.) Maybe they only want to obey the principle that morals solely come from religious revelation/scripture, therefore there's nothing to object to what Muhammad is reported to have done...
    These Bukhari ahadith never sat well with my conscience. Let me ask you this: Why didn't Allah prevent Bukhari from including this story? It sure would have saved Islam a lot of trouble, nowadays. And do you think he will be in Hell, because we know Muslims have followed the example of the Prophet?

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
    Wikis: en de fr ar tr
    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #18 - March 24, 2009, 10:59 PM

    Salam and welcome marleya. Quite the topic you have chosen to jump right in as a newbie, which is okay, of course - it's your right.

    I used to be like you and thought that the Prophet never could have done such a disgusting thing. That's why I accepted the explanations/apologetics of Muslims, who said those ahadith are unreliable for such and such reasons... However, I still could not stomach the fact that there are Muslims out there, who have no problems accepting the story about the child-bride (even my own mother does :(.) Maybe they only want to obey the principle that morals solely come from religious revelation/scripture, therefore there's nothing to object to what Muhammad is reported to have done...
    These Bukhari ahadith never sat well with my conscience. Let me ask you this: Why didn't Allah prevent Bukhari from including this story? It sure would have saved Islam a lot of trouble, nowadays. And do you think he will be in Hell, because we know Muslims have followed the example of the Prophet?

    Following on from Aziz, do you think we will go to hell on account of apostasizing from Islam due to reasons such as these?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #19 - March 25, 2009, 06:02 AM

    Hi Marleya,

    I dislike jumping headlong into a debate with you right after you joined us as a member & I'm delighted you joined, but since you seem interested in the Quran only, I want to ask you this...

    I dont belive in any hadith that contradicts the Quran,and the common sence.


    The Quran explicitly gives permission to men to beat their wives for disobedience.

    Quran Sura (4:34) - "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

    Thus the Hadiths which I'm going to write next are perfectly in accordance with the Quran's opinion on the matter:

    Muslim (4:2127) - Muhammad struck his favorite wife, Aisha, in the chest one evening when she left the house without his permission.  Aisha narrates, "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain."

    This hadith is from Sahih Muslim, deemed an authentic collection. Mohammed also struck Ayesha just like Allah had given men permission to strike their disobedient wife\wives.
     
    Next Hadith
    Abu Dawud (2142) - "The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife."

    These hadiths do not contradict the ideas of the Quran, which recommends wife beating as a legitimate way to solve marital disputes, rather thay expand on the theme-& even show Prophet Mohammed acting accordingly.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #20 - March 25, 2009, 07:16 AM

    Salam and welcome marleya. Quite the topic you have chosen to jump right in as a newbie, which is okay, of course - it's your right.

    I used to be like you and thought that the Prophet never could have done such a disgusting thing. That's why I accepted the explanations/apologetics of Muslims, who said those ahadith are unreliable for such and such reasons... However, I still could not stomach the fact that there are Muslims out there, who have no problems accepting the story about the child-bride (even my own mother does :(.) Maybe they only want to obey the principle that morals solely come from religious revelation/scripture, therefore there's nothing to object to what Muhammad is reported to have done...
    These Bukhari ahadith never sat well with my conscience. Let me ask you this: Why didn't Allah prevent Bukhari from including this story? It sure would have saved Islam a lot of trouble, nowadays. And do you think he will be in Hell, because we know Muslims have followed the example of the Prophet?


    Salaam Aziz.

    You are maybe right about the topic,but here I am,answering what I can.
    I too cant belive muslims supports this kind of lies.
    You ask me how Allah could have prevendted Bukhari,from writing down this things.It is how religions have been falsified through time,the jews did it,with their talmud,that is man written laws,and addition to the Torah.The christians did it,with Jesus,after his dead,he became son of God.

    In the Quran Allah warns of the idolaters and the hypocrits.The ones who will say they belive in Allah,but upholds other laws than from the Quran.I should have included the verses,but dont have my Quran here,later today,I can give you references from the Quran.

    People that follow the Prophets sunna,instead of Gods words,if they come to hell or not,I dont know.But Allah say in the Quran,that they are misguided and just follow what their parents followed,without thinking if their parents was rightly guided.

    I dont think people that dont belive in Allah goes to hell.I have met outstanding humans that are not religious,and know that the character God wants for us humans,the religous ones is not the only one have it.And as we see,even the religious ones dont have it.


  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #21 - March 25, 2009, 07:23 AM

    Quote from: IsLame
    Following on from Aziz, do you think we will go to hell on account of apostasizing from Islam due to reasons such as these?
    [/quote


    None what so ever IsLame.There is no force in religion.

    Btw,it is a "hell" of a signature you have IsLame Smiley

  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #22 - March 25, 2009, 07:31 AM

    Following on from Aziz, do you think we will go to hell on account of apostasizing from Islam due to reasons such as these?

    Quote
    None what so ever IsLame.There is no force in religion.

    According to the Quran, not only will we go to hell, but the Quran advocates people like you murdering us?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #23 - March 25, 2009, 07:40 AM

    Hi Marleya,

    I dislike jumping headlong into a debate with you right after you joined us as a member & I'm delighted you joined, but since you seem interested in the Quran only, I want to ask you this...

    I dont belive in any hadith that contradicts the Quran,and the common sence.


    The Quran explicitly gives permission to men to beat their wives for disobedience.

    Quran Sura (4:34) - "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

    Thus the Hadiths which I'm going to write next are perfectly in accordance with the Quran's opinion on the matter:

    Muslim (4:2127) - Muhammad struck his favorite wife, Aisha, in the chest one evening when she left the house without his permission.  Aisha narrates, "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain."

    This hadith is from Sahih Muslim, deemed an authentic collection. Mohammed also struck Ayesha just like Allah had given men permission to strike their disobedient wife\wives.
     
    Next Hadith
    Abu Dawud (2142) - "The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife."

    These hadiths do not contradict the ideas of the Quran, which recommends wife beating as a legitimate way to solve marital disputes, rather thay expand on the theme-& even show Prophet Mohammed acting accordingly.



    The word in the Quran,that is said means to beat your wife,is used several times in the Quran,without meaning beat.The ord means to separate,to set time,or to set and end,and that is what the Quran means.Why the men that have interpreted the Quran,suddenly decided that the word means to beat,while in the other verses,where the word is mention,it does not,I can only imagine.And that would be to uphold the pre arabic tradition and culture,where womens did not have much rights.

    Peace Rashan!
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #24 - March 25, 2009, 07:42 AM

    Following on from Aziz, do you think we will go to hell on account of apostasizing from Islam due to reasons such as these?

    Quote
    None what so ever IsLame.There is no force in religion.

    According to the Quran, not only will we go to hell, but the Quran advocates people like you murdering us?


    The Quran say that it is no force in the religion,and do not state that people that leave,should be killed.It is the hadith that do so!

    Peace
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #25 - March 25, 2009, 08:01 AM

    Following on from Aziz, do you think we will go to hell on account of apostasizing from Islam due to reasons such as these?

    Quote
    None what so ever IsLame.There is no force in religion.

    According to the Quran, not only will we go to hell, but the Quran advocates people like you murdering us?


    The Quran say that it is no force in the religion,and do not state that people that leave,should be killed.It is the hadith that do so!

    Peace


    Re. death for apostates - I think your right, it does not say it in the Quran and only in the hadith.

    Re. Hell - Verse 2:217 "And if any of you turn back from their faith (Islam) and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the hereafter; they will be companions of the fire and will abide therein." 


    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #26 - March 25, 2009, 08:21 AM

    Following on from Aziz, do you think we will go to hell on account of apostasizing from Islam due to reasons such as these?

    Quote
    None what so ever IsLame.There is no force in religion.

    According to the Quran, not only will we go to hell, but the Quran advocates people like you murdering us?


    The Quran say that it is no force in the religion,and do not state that people that leave,should be killed.It is the hadith that do so!

    Peace


    Of course, the Quran & Prophet Mohammed have not hesitated to use force as & when it suited them. And Prophet Mohammed did use force on people to convert them to his faith. Here're the verses from the Quran.

    Sura IX.5: Then, when the sacred months have passed away, kill the idolaters wherever you find them  These words are usually cited to show what fate awaits idolaters. Well, what of the context? The words immediately after these just quoted say, ?and seize them, besiege them and lie in ambush everywhere for them.? Ah, you might say, you have deliberately left out the words that come after those. Let us quote them then, ?If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful.? Surely these are words of tolerance, you plead. Hardly: they are saying that if they become Muslims then they will be left in peace.

    Prophet Mohammed marched into Mecca, smashed all the 360 idols of the Mecca idolaters chanting "Truth has come & falsehood vanished, verily falsehood is ever vanishing"Quran, Chapter 17: Al-Isra (The Journey by Night), verse 81  as he smashed & threatened to kill anyone who came out of their homes to retrieve the idols. If George Bush today marched into Mecca, smashed the Kaaba there & erected a church, & warned Muslims that if they come out to save the Kaaba he'd kill them, wouldn't that be forcing?

    He also forced the Jews to either accept him as their chosen Messiah, or pay the jizya. Naturally the Jews disliked this, they has not the slightest wish to make Mohammed their Messiah, & they'd previously enjoyed complete equality in Pagan Arabia. According to Jewish Law(halacha) the child of a Jewish mother is a Jew, & Jewish leader Kaab ibn Al Asraf, whose mother was a Jew & father a pagan was raised Jewish & could even become the lader of a Jewish tribe. Naturally both pagans & Jews were hostile to this new faith which either aimed at forcibly converting them(for the pagans) or reducing them to second class status status(for the Jews).

    So offended were the pagans' by this forced conversion that soon after Prophet Mohammed's death, ridda(apostasy) wars broke out, which were again ruthlessly suppressed by his followers.

    The Arabian Peninsula had diverse faiths, they could even freely convert to Christianity as Khadija's Uncle Waraqa Nawfal had become Christian, there were Jews & there were pagans. Prophet Mohammed's legacy was clearing the entire Arabian Peninsula of other faiths, a legacy which still endures as no churches, forget synagogues or temples are allowed in Saudi.
     
     


    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #27 - March 25, 2009, 08:52 AM

    The word in the Quran,that is said means to beat your wife,is used several times in the Quran,without meaning beat.The ord means to separate,to set time,or to set and end,and that is what the Quran means.Why the men that have interpreted the Quran,suddenly decided that the word means to beat,while in the other verses,where the word is mention,it does not,I can only imagine.And that would be to uphold the pre arabic tradition and culture,where womens did not have much rights.

    Peace Rashna!


    marleya, I see two problems with your interpretation.

    Let me ask you, have you read Arabic, or are you relying on the interpretation of those scholars whose interpretations suit your taste?

    Even with your interpretation, firstly Allah(SWT) is clear that He made the Quran in an utterly clearly language(he says so in the Quran itself, not in any hadiths), so as to avoid confusion by the misinterpretation by  fallible(or sexist) men. Here're the verses where Allah claims that he's written the Quran in clear Arabic.

    "Behold, We have sent it down in all clarity, in the Arabic tongue, so that you might encompass it with your reason." [12:2]
     إِنَّا جَعَلْنَاهُ قُرْآنًا عَرَبِيًّا لَعَلَّكُمْ تَعْقِلُونَ

    "Behold, We have made it a Qur'an in clear Arabic language that you may fully understand." [43:3]

    Seems that if sexist men have misinterpreted it so often, then maybe Allah wasn't as clear as He imagines His teachings to be.  Roll Eyes

    Now we come back to the bit regarding wife beating.

    The word  for beating comes from the root daraba (Arabic: ضرب). The word has been used many times in the Quran to mean: to hit, to travel the earth, to set up, to condemn and to give examples. Thus scholars interpret  differently. Whereas many interpret it to mean "to strike lightly", others hold that the term means "to separate."

    However, why men have interpreted that bit to mean "beat" in this particular context is not hard to imagine-& it has all to do with studying the words in context The subjection of women to their husbands has divine sanction, Allah says men are superior & good women are obedient to their husbands & any disobedient wife maybe arbitrarily punished by her Allah made superior husband by talking, then separate-it doesn't matter to Allah that husbands can be in the wrong as well. Naturally a scholar studying a text where the subjugation of wives receives Allah's sanction will also interpret it that way.

    Also, I'm ignoring the Hadiths which you dislike which again elaborate on wife beating & which even show Mohammed striking his wife Ayesha. Notice that even if the hadiths are made up, they don't portray Mohammed striking Khadija, coz she was his boss, she had all the money &  poor Mohammed would suffer sad consequences had he struck Khadija-she might have turned him out of the house.


    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Mohammad, the Pedophile
     Reply #28 - March 25, 2009, 09:40 AM

    Marleya I'm curious about something...

    Quote
    You use a lot of hadith,when you critize Islam,but you should know there is many of us,who have thrown hadith to the fish,and only use the Quran as guiding.


    If you reject hadith and only use the Qur'an as a source, how do you know what age Aisha was when she got married?  Its not mentioned in the Qur'an at all, as far as I know.



    Thats because  the Quran,dont speak about child marrige.But beetween the muslim themselves,there is a issue about Aishas age,and historical events that are talked about in the hadith,that show that it is not right age of Aisha,six yearsl old.She was older.
    In the Quran you must be mature,sound of mind and able to understand a marrige contract,so for me,that my Prophet married a six year old girl,would be to go against the Quran.
    Peace



    This is a hadith from the most authentic collection of Bukhari.
    (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) Bukhari 8. 73.151
    Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me.

    A 17-19 year old sound of mind girl & her girlfriends clearly don't play with dolls. A child does, or a girl with Down's Syndrome might. Neither are marrieageable, & its unhealthy for either to be married.

    Its not what you'd like your Prophet to do, but what historical sources claim he did. No doubt Chelsea Clinton would have liked her dad Bill Clinton not to have cheated on her mom & have sex with Monica Lewinsky, but that's what he unfortunately did.
    Our emotional preferences for our loved ones or Prophets are one thing, reality maybe another.

    How can you simply choose one hadith over another, simply because it offends your cherished impression about the Prophet. The Bukhari hadiths show her as a 6 year old at marriage, 9 at consummation & 18 at Mohammed's death. The corresponding ages of Prophet Mohammed also add up perfectly. Also the fact that she was swinging & her mom brought her in to the Prophet & she did not seem to realise what was happening to her, her playing with dolls with her friends, all indicate a very young girl.

    While Muslims have speculated older ages for her, no other age for her & corresponding age for Prophet Mohammed adds up.



    Peace

    Unfortunatley Rashna,the Prophets time is a little longer away than Clinton and Lewinski,and therefor much more difficult,to know what went on,1400 years ago.

    I dont choose one hadith over another,I follow my common sence and my knowledge.
    Quran is clear on marrige,it can not be taken away,a women has to be sound of mind and able to sign a marrige contract.

    Hadith is not from God and the Prophet was against writing anything down after him.It was againt the law,in the first 80 years,after the Prophets dead,to write hadith.
    In the Quran the Prophet say many times that his people has left the Quran,and uphold other laws then God laws.

    How can words that are written long after the Prophets time,the earliest,200 years after,say anything that people can put a trust in,that these words are from the Prophet?

    I dont belive in any hadith that contradicts the Quran,and the common sence.

    Aisha's age doesn't contradict the Quran. The Quran itself mentions in passing that men are allowed to marry girls before they reach puberty (65:04). I know you already mentioned this verse to mean women who are in between periods but the tasfirs translate it differently. I have checked two tasfirs (including Ibn Kathir) and they both translate it as girls who have not yet reached their menses.
  • Re: Welcome to Marleya
     Reply #29 - March 25, 2009, 09:48 AM

    Welcome marleya.  Smiley

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
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