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 Topic: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain

 (Read 22437 times)
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  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #30 - May 09, 2009, 07:24 PM

    Quod erat demonstrandum.
    You are simply speaking about undefined non-sense.

    So, yes, there might also be a ajdgoogbis behind the laws of gravity. Whatever that means.


    You must have a reason to theorize the existence of ajdgoogbis. You must be theorizing it in order to explain something which cannot be explained in a better way.


    Drawing an analogy with your line of thought, the reason could be "because things cannot obviously move by themselves... so WHAT is exactly moving an object when gravity is applied?"

    Quote
    Which is conducted, how?


    Replicate a physical body identical to the ones humans have and do psycholigical experiments on it, as you would on a human, and see if it appears to possess consciousness, sensation, emotion, etc.

    Like I predicted, we are talking about the Turing test.
    You would have to interact with "it" and see if it acts exactly like a human.
    But then again you could simply say that it's just "simulating human consciousness without actually being conscious".
    To which i would simply reply that "you cannot even be sure if other humans are really conscious, then"

    Quote
    It's whatever causes a physical change in the brain.
    if A implies B, and B implies A... Whatever is causing A is also what is causing B


    So what is this cause(s)?

    ATP, oxygen, electrical stimuli in the axons, chemical stimuli in the synapses, hormones and whatever molecules can affect the brain chemistry, sensory input, etcetera...

    Some of those ARE part of the brain itself. In fact complex neural networks have a lot of information feedback. That might explain why "the brain keeps working / you keep thinking" even when sensory input stops or decreases.

    Quote
    But you are the one asking for an explanation to take into account... what exactly? Something that you can't even define.
    So, yeah, it does look like your emotions are impairing your rational capacity.


    No, I just don't assume that if there is something which I can't fully describe or explain right now, then it must not exist. I acknowledge my own limitations.


    I don't assume that either. There might as well be a mental dimension. And a "sexual dimension". And a "strange shade of blue dimension". But if I cannot say anything consistent about them, they are completely irrelevant.

    Quote
    Then what method do you prefer? Induction you said?
    By induction, if all thoughts happen together with physical events in the brain, and if some physical events in the brain are "felt" as thoughts or change in feelings... that's enough to inductively conclude that thoughts are physical in nature with a "good" degree of probability.


    Induction sounds good, but not this piece of induction; You have left alot unexplained. Such as, what is a thought? What is emotion?

    Ok let me reformulate.
    Whenever people reported they are thinking, there is physical activity in the brain.
    And whenever people had their physical activity altered while they were able to report something, they reported a change in thoughts, feelings, emotions.

    Better? That relies on what the self perceives as "thought/feelings".
    And it cannot get better defined than that, because you cannot possible prove that anyone else "feels" except yourself.

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #31 - May 10, 2009, 03:17 PM

    Quod erat demonstrandum.
    You are simply speaking about undefined non-sense.

    So, yes, there might also be a ajdgoogbis behind the laws of gravity. Whatever that means.


    You must have a reason to theorize the existence of ajdgoogbis. You must be theorizing it in order to explain something which cannot be explained in a better way.


    Drawing an analogy with your line of thought, the reason could be "because things cannot obviously move by themselves... so WHAT is exactly moving an object when gravity is applied?"


    Gravity is a pulling force which pulls objects towards a clump of mass.... so what is ajdgoogbis and why do you think it is necessary to explain the law of gravity?

    Quote
    Quote
    Which is conducted, how?


    Replicate a physical body identical to the ones humans have and do psycholigical experiments on it, as you would on a human, and see if it appears to possess consciousness, sensation, emotion, etc.

    Like I predicted, we are talking about the Turing test.
    You would have to interact with "it" and see if it acts exactly like a human.
    But then again you could simply say that it's just "simulating human consciousness without actually being conscious".
    To which i would simply reply that "you cannot even be sure if other humans are really conscious, then"


    By "simulating human consciousness" that person might mean that the robot is programmed to respond to a certain behaviour in a certain way. In which case, this is not really consciousness.

    So do you think that if we could replicate all the physical aspects of a human body, it would acquire consciousness?

    Quote
    Quote
    It's whatever causes a physical change in the brain.
    if A implies B, and B implies A... Whatever is causing A is also what is causing B


    So what is this cause(s)?

    ATP, oxygen, electrical stimuli in the axons, chemical stimuli in the synapses, hormones and whatever molecules can affect the brain chemistry, sensory input, etcetera...

    Some of those ARE part of the brain itself. In fact complex neural networks have a lot of information feedback. That might explain why "the brain keeps working / you keep thinking" even when sensory input stops or decreases.


    In what physical way would my body be different in these two scenarios:

    a) when I crave a burger

    b) when I crave a pizza

    Quote
    Quote
    But you are the one asking for an explanation to take into account... what exactly? Something that you can't even define.
    So, yeah, it does look like your emotions are impairing your rational capacity.


    No, I just don't assume that if there is something which I can't fully describe or explain right now, then it must not exist. I acknowledge my own limitations.


    I don't assume that either. There might as well be a mental dimension. And a "sexual dimension". And a "strange shade of blue dimension". But if I cannot say anything consistent about them, they are completely irrelevant.


    Please tell me more about this "sexual dimension" and this "strange shade of blue dimension". Would be interesting to know why you believe such things.

    Quote
    Quote
    Then what method do you prefer? Induction you said?
    By induction, if all thoughts happen together with physical events in the brain, and if some physical events in the brain are "felt" as thoughts or change in feelings... that's enough to inductively conclude that thoughts are physical in nature with a "good" degree of probability.


    Induction sounds good, but not this piece of induction; You have left alot unexplained. Such as, what is a thought? What is emotion?

    Ok let me reformulate.
    Whenever people reported they are thinking, there is physical activity in the brain.
    And whenever people had their physical activity altered while they were able to report something, they reported a change in thoughts, feelings, emotions.

    Better? That relies on what the self perceives as "thought/feelings".
    And it cannot get better defined than that, because you cannot possible prove that anyone else "feels" except yourself.

    [/quote]

    So what is thought? You keep telling me about the physical effects that come with thought, but you don't tell me what thought is...

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #32 - May 10, 2009, 07:01 PM

    Gravity is a pulling force which pulls objects towards a clump of mass.... so what is ajdgoogbis and why do you think it is necessary to explain the law of gravity?

    Because the law of gravity is not a satisfactory enough explanation.

    By "simulating human consciousness" that person might mean that the robot is programmed to respond to a certain behaviour in a certain way. In which case, this is not really consciousness.


    Then by what standards do you consider other humans "conscious"?

    So do you think that if we could replicate all the physical aspects of a human body, it would acquire consciousness?


    I am not certain of that, but I see it as a highly plausible explanation which would not create strange paradoxes.

    In what physical way would my body be different in these two scenarios:

    a) when I crave a burger

    b) when I crave a pizza


    Neurologically speaking, different neurons would be "firing" information within the network of neurons.
    And some identical neurons would be firing a different "signal strength".

    It's like asking in what physical way your computer is different when it's executing a task instead of another.
    Except biological brains have an enormous parallel computing power.

    Please tell me more about this "sexual dimension" and this "strange shade of blue dimension". Would be interesting to know why you believe such things.


    Sorry, those dimensions cannot be adequately defined :S

    Quote
    Quote
    Then what method do you prefer? Induction you said?
    By induction, if all thoughts happen together with physical events in the brain, and if some physical events in the brain are "felt" as thoughts or change in feelings... that's enough to inductively conclude that thoughts are physical in nature with a "good" degree of probability.


    Induction sounds good, but not this piece of induction; You have left alot unexplained. Such as, what is a thought? What is emotion?

    Ok let me reformulate.
    Whenever people reported they are thinking, there is physical activity in the brain.
    And whenever people had their physical activity altered while they were able to report something, they reported a change in thoughts, feelings, emotions.

    Better? That relies on what the self perceives as "thought/feelings".
    And it cannot get better defined than that, because you cannot possible prove that anyone else "feels" except yourself.


    So what is thought? You keep telling me about the physical effects that come with thought, but you don't tell me what thought is...

    For me? A "thought" is a an abstraction of what I perceive as my own "information processing"

    Now, give me your definition of "thought", since you have provided none

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #33 - May 10, 2009, 07:05 PM

    Posts are getting too long :S

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #34 - May 10, 2009, 08:53 PM

    Gravity is a pulling force which pulls objects towards a clump of mass.... so what is ajdgoogbis and why do you think it is necessary to explain the law of gravity?

    Because the law of gravity is not a satisfactory enough explanation.


    Why?

    Quote
    By "simulating human consciousness" that person might mean that the robot is programmed to respond to a certain behaviour in a certain way. In which case, this is not really consciousness.


    Then by what standards do you consider other humans "conscious"?


    Consciousness is self-awareness and it enables various other mental properties such as sensation and the intellect.

    Quote
    So do you think that if we could replicate all the physical aspects of a human body, it would acquire consciousness?


    I am not certain of that, but I see it as a highly plausible explanation which would not create strange paradoxes.


    The problem I see is this. I think of consciousness as a Form of something. I do not see it as mere Matter. Matter can be spoken of as being in "bulk". Form cannot. You can have one of a form. You can't properly have one of a Matter. For example, if I ask you to bring me some sand and you ask me how much and I reply "twenty three", you will be confused. This is because I have asked you to bring me Matter and when you ask me how much I reply as if we are talking about Forms. Forms have an identity, so to say. They can be labelled. A spade full of sand can be thought of as a Form. You could ask me how many spadefuls of sand do I want and if I answer "twenty three" then I will have given you a proper answer, as we are then both talking in terms of Forms.

    Now when you start talking about consciousness as being merely a physical layout of matter, i.e. the brain, then it seems plausible that consciousness could be increased by adding more in terms of physical matter, or by decreasing it by taking away in terms of physical matter. Indeed, I could double the size of consciousness by linking two brains together, or triple the size by bringing three brains together.

    The mistake I think you make is to think of consciousness as being like Matter. I think that consciousness can only be thought of as a Form. However, you believe that consciousness is Matter and can be thus be clumped together. But how do you make sense of this? Consciousness is self-awareness, but if consciousness is Matter, then there is no self. This is a strange paradox. You do believe that an inidvidual is an individual, don't you? With his own identity and who is the same person as 5 minutes ago and who will be the same person in 5 minutes time? Because if you do not accept that then you surely will run into strange paradoxes as there would no longer be any sense in forgivenes, since the person who did the abhorent act is no longer with us, and it makes no sense to pay a worker his/her wages, since the worker is no longer with us, and it makes no sense to fulfill your promises, as the person you made your promise to is no longer with us. It does not make sense to talk of I, you, we, us, him, her. This whole identity language would be based on a false premise, that consciousness is a Form. This is only if you believe that consciousness is Matter.

    This is why I think that to replicate all the physical aspects of a human body and expecting it to acquire consciousness is highly implausible and which would create strange paradoxes.

    Quote
    Neurologically speaking, different neurons would be "firing" information within the network of neurons.
    And some identical neurons would be firing a different "signal strength".


    So, burger neurones fly about when I crave a burger and pizza neurones fly about when I crave a pizza?

    Quote
    It's like asking in what physical way your computer is different when it's executing a task instead of another.
    Except biological brains have an enormous parallel computing power.


    This is possibly the best objection, if not the only objection which could be made against my theory. I havn't given it much thought though as I don't know exactly how computers exchange information. However, one drawback to this criticism. There isn't really anything about the computer analogy that is to be compared with consciousness.

    Quote
    Please tell me more about this "sexual dimension" and this "strange shade of blue dimension". Would be interesting to know why you believe such things.


    Sorry, those dimensions cannot be adequately defined :S


    I repeat, Would be interesting to know why you believe such things.

    Quote
    Quote
    Quote
    Then what method do you prefer? Induction you said?
    By induction, if all thoughts happen together with physical events in the brain, and if some physical events in the brain are "felt" as thoughts or change in feelings... that's enough to inductively conclude that thoughts are physical in nature with a "good" degree of probability.


    Induction sounds good, but not this piece of induction; You have left alot unexplained. Such as, what is a thought? What is emotion?

    Ok let me reformulate.
    Whenever people reported they are thinking, there is physical activity in the brain.
    And whenever people had their physical activity altered while they were able to report something, they reported a change in thoughts, feelings, emotions.

    Better? That relies on what the self perceives as "thought/feelings".
    And it cannot get better defined than that, because you cannot possible prove that anyone else "feels" except yourself.


    So what is thought? You keep telling me about the physical effects that come with thought, but you don't tell me what thought is...

    For me? A "thought" is a an abstraction of what I perceive as my own "information processing"

    Now, give me your definition of "thought", since you have provided none


    It can't be adequately defined.

    "Information processing" is an interesting comparison, but does thought a great injustice, nonetheless. A computer can be thought of as processing information, but it isn't thought of as having a thought.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #35 - May 11, 2009, 04:44 AM

    'Consciousness ' is one of the things that I also still struggle with (well that along with death, but sorted death out about a year ago).  Theists can explain it metaphysically by seeing it related to a spirit. 

    What are we agnostics/atheists left with?

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  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #36 - May 11, 2009, 07:24 AM

    'Consciousness ' is one of the things that I also still struggle with (well that along with death, but sorted death out about a year ago).  Theists can explain it metaphysically by seeing it related to a spirit. 

    What are we agnostics/atheists left with?


    There are usually considered to be 3 different positions on the nature of things:

    1. Materialism/Physicalism

    This is the belief that only physical things exist. Tlaloc thinks mind is hard to define and therefore should be excluded from rational debate, but physical things are equally difficult to define. I think the best explanation is "that which can collide and which occupies space". For Materialists, "mind" is just a metaphor. When we say "mind" we really just mean "brain". Equally, "consciousness" is just a metaphor. What exactly for, I don't think it is agreed upon. Many will probably say it is just another metaphor for "brain".

    2. Idealism/Mentalism

    This is the belief that only mental things exist. I think the best explanation is "that which cannot collide and which does not occupy space." Everything that you can see is simply an illusion. "It is all in your mind" one might say. For Idealists, "brain" would be an illusion, and that "mind" is a reality. Consciousness is something very similar to a spirit.

    3. Dualism

    A mixture of both. Such people are probably default Materialists, and then when they approach the mind problem, they cannot see how mere matter could produce a mind, and so they postulate that there is another dimension, a mental dimension. Dualists see consciousness in the same way Idealists see consciousness. However, for the Dualist, both "brain" and "mind" are realities, the former being of the physical dimension and the latter being of the mental dimension. They are clearly connected together, but the big problem for Dualists is, how? Rene Descartes believed that the two were connected through the Pineal Gland in the brain. What made him think this, he didn't really explain.

    Agnostics and Atheists can be either of those 3 without contradicting themselves. The question is, which one is probably right?

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #37 - May 11, 2009, 08:13 AM

    Gravity is a pulling force which pulls objects towards a clump of mass.... so what is ajdgoogbis and why do you think it is necessary to explain the law of gravity?

    Because the law of gravity is not a satisfactory enough explanation.


    Why?

    Because it doesn't address what "gravity" really is, but only its physical effects.

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #38 - May 11, 2009, 08:21 AM

    Quote
    By "simulating human consciousness" that person might mean that the robot is programmed to respond to a certain behaviour in a certain way. In which case, this is not really consciousness.


    Then by what standards do you consider other humans "conscious"?


    Consciousness is self-awareness and it enables various other mental properties such as sensation and the intellect.

    You have not addressed the issue.

    How do you "verify" that another human is conscious (i.e. self-aware)?

    Or, in other terms, let's take a real human and an imaginary machine that is constructed to look exactly like the real human and act and react exactly like the real human would. (Since the input and output data processed by the real human is finite, such a hypothetical machine does not contradict information science).
    And let's assume as hypothesis that the machine lacks "consciousness" or "self-awareness".

    So my previous question can now be reformulated as: how can you tell human and machine apart without checking their inner physical structure?

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #39 - May 11, 2009, 08:58 AM

    The problem I see is this. I think of consciousness as a Form of something. I do not see it as mere Matter. Matter can be spoken of as being in "bulk". Form cannot. You can have one of a form. You can't properly have one of a Matter. For example, if I ask you to bring me some sand and you ask me how much and I reply "twenty three", you will be confused. This is because I have asked you to bring me Matter and when you ask me how much I reply as if we are talking about Forms. Forms have an identity, so to say. They can be labelled. A spade full of sand can be thought of as a Form. You could ask me how many spadefuls of sand do I want and if I answer "twenty three" then I will have given you a proper answer, as we are then both talking in terms of Forms.

    Now when you start talking about consciousness as being merely a physical layout of matter, i.e. the brain, then it seems plausible that consciousness could be increased by adding more in terms of physical matter, or by decreasing it by taking away in terms of physical matter. Indeed, I could double the size of consciousness by linking two brains together, or triple the size by bringing three brains together.

    The mistake I think you make is to think of consciousness as being like Matter. I think that consciousness can only be thought of as a Form. However, you believe that consciousness is Matter and can be thus be clumped together. But how do you make sense of this? Consciousness is self-awareness, but if consciousness is Matter, then there is no self. This is a strange paradox. You do believe that an inidvidual is an individual, don't you? With his own identity and who is the same person as 5 minutes ago and who will be the same person in 5 minutes time? Because if you do not accept that then you surely will run into strange paradoxes as there would no longer be any sense in forgivenes, since the person who did the abhorent act is no longer with us, and it makes no sense to pay a worker his/her wages, since the worker is no longer with us, and it makes no sense to fulfill your promises, as the person you made your promise to is no longer with us. It does not make sense to talk of I, you, we, us, him, her. This whole identity language would be based on a false premise, that consciousness is a Form. This is only if you believe that consciousness is Matter.

    This is why I think that to replicate all the physical aspects of a human body and expecting it to acquire consciousness is highly implausible and which would create strange paradoxes.

    I see.

    Let's put some order in what you said.

    When you talk about "form" you are talking about dichotomic "yes/no" logic. As in, "X is Y" or "X is not Y".
    And when you talk about "matter" you are talking about fuzzy logic. As in, "X can be Y up to a certain degree", or "X1 is more like Y than X2".

    So you apply dichotomic logic to consciousness. As in, there are no degrees of consciousness.
    I apply fuzzy logic to consciousness. So I assume there can be degrees of consciousness.

    You say you see a paradox in assuming consciousness is a fuzzy concept extended into the material world because there would be NO clean limit as where the self ends and where the non-self begins.
    I do NOT see a paradox in this, because I apply fuzzy logic to the concept of "individuality" itself.
    After all, such a concept IS already fuzzy in nature if you consider the concept of "body".

    Take your body. It's made of matter, so it follows fuzzy logic.
    There is NO clear distinction about where your body ends and the non-body begins, more so if you go at microscopic level. Yet, when analyzed at a macroscopic level, you can see your body is quite distinct.

    So why shouldn't the same applies to "thoughts" and "self-identity"?
    Especially if you consider that we DO feel degrees of consciousness, for example when falling asleep or waking up, or from anesthesia, or coma.
    And we do feel "glitches" in the sense of continuity, take for example deja-vu.
    And people do lose sense of continuity when they have total amnesia.

    And how would dichotomic yes/no consciousness work regarding birth?
    Do we get a "mind" when we are born, and it's inactive until the brain is "powerful enough" to instantly turn the whole "consciousness" from off to on?
    How about monozygote twins? Are we born with "n" minds and only one turns active when the material brain is powerful enough and all the other minds stay off?
    And in case the same entity "splits" into more entities like in the case of identical twins, the minds get divided?

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #40 - May 11, 2009, 09:07 AM

    Quote
    Neurologically speaking, different neurons would be "firing" information within the network of neurons.
    And some identical neurons would be firing a different "signal strength".


    So, burger neurones fly about when I crave a burger and pizza neurones fly about when I crave a pizza?

    Quote
    It's like asking in what physical way your computer is different when it's executing a task instead of another.
    Except biological brains have an enormous parallel computing power.


    This is possibly the best objection, if not the only objection which could be made against my theory. I havn't given it much thought though as I don't know exactly how computers exchange information. However, one drawback to this criticism. There isn't really anything about the computer analogy that is to be compared with consciousness.

    You cannot  draw an analogy because you have already decided beforehand that "there is more to consciousness than information exchange".

    If you take by hypothesis that "consciousness" is a function of information processing, there is no contradiction in drawing an analogy between any information processing machine AND a human.

    Let me reformulate:
    You were asking something like: if all there is about thoughts is in the information exchanged by the "brain machine" then what is the difference between "thinking A" and "thinking B"?

    The answer is: the difference would be in the "state" of the information processing machine.
    And that, again, is supported by experimentation because we know that when the brain thinks of something specific, the same area of the brain seems to "become active". There is of course a little variation because we cannot completely block all other input factors.

    Exactly like you have currents and tensions in different parts of your computers when it's processing different tasks.

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #41 - May 11, 2009, 09:14 AM

    Quote
    Quote
    Quote
    Then what method do you prefer? Induction you said?
    By induction, if all thoughts happen together with physical events in the brain, and if some physical events in the brain are "felt" as thoughts or change in feelings... that's enough to inductively conclude that thoughts are physical in nature with a "good" degree of probability.


    Induction sounds good, but not this piece of induction; You have left alot unexplained. Such as, what is a thought? What is emotion?

    Ok let me reformulate.
    Whenever people reported they are thinking, there is physical activity in the brain.
    And whenever people had their physical activity altered while they were able to report something, they reported a change in thoughts, feelings, emotions.

    Better? That relies on what the self perceives as "thought/feelings".
    And it cannot get better defined than that, because you cannot possible prove that anyone else "feels" except yourself.


    So what is thought? You keep telling me about the physical effects that come with thought, but you don't tell me what thought is...

    For me? A "thought" is a an abstraction of what I perceive as my own "information processing"

    Now, give me your definition of "thought", since you have provided none


    It can't be adequately defined.

    "Information processing" is an interesting comparison, but does thought a great injustice, nonetheless. A computer can be thought of as processing information, but it isn't thought of as having a thought.

    Well, saying that it "does thought a great injustice" is symptom that you are simply seeing what you WANT to see.

    So you can't define thought, but you think it's somehow LOGICAL to say that there is more to thought than information processing...

    The only logical thing you can say about something you cannot even define is that it MIGHT involve something other that X.
    Since it's not defined it can as well be X, or X+Y, or not X at all

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #42 - May 11, 2009, 09:21 AM

    There are usually considered to be 3 different positions on the nature of things:

    1. Materialism/Physicalism

    This is the belief that only physical things exist. Tlaloc thinks mind is hard to define and therefore should be excluded from rational debate, but physical things are equally difficult to define. I think the best explanation is "that which can collide and which occupies space". For Materialists, "mind" is just a metaphor. When we say "mind" we really just mean "brain". Equally, "consciousness" is just a metaphor. What exactly for, I don't think it is agreed upon. Many will probably say it is just another metaphor for "brain".

    I want to precise that I am not a materialist.

    But, yes, I think we can rationalize only about what we can define.

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #43 - May 11, 2009, 08:31 PM

    On gravity: So you think that ajdgoogbis tells us what gravity really is? Please clarify.

    On identifying consciousness in a foreign body: When you say that a robot is programmed to respond exactly as a human would respond, what do you mean exactly? If you mean that a robot is given consciousness, just as a human being has consciousness, well then it has consciousness.

    If you mean that a robot is programmed to respond in a way that is considered typical of human beings, then that robot's reaction to that stimuli will never change and that will show that the robot has been programmed and does not have consciousness.

    On Matter and Form: When you say we experience various degrees of consciousness such as when we are asleep or in a coma, you are talking of degrees of consciousness in a different way to me. Whether you are asleep, in a coma, or if you have had a few cups of espresso, or after you have read a book, there is still 1 consciousness. You don't get 2/3 consciousness when you are asleep or 1/4 consciousness when you are in a coma or 3/2 consciousness after a few cups of espresso or after reading a book. There is 1 consciousness in question. That 1 consciousness may well differ in various degrees in the sense that you use the term, in which case, that 1 consciousness would be in different states or qualities, but would still be 1 consciousness. Birth might be 1 consciousness that is going from a state of inactiveness and gradually becoming more and more active as the pregnancy goes on.

    On the computer analogy of the brain: I guess the only thing I can say in response to your accusation that I have already made my mind up and refuse to keep an open mind, is, well, your wrong, I'm keeping an open mind. Not much more to say here. I thought you would have learnt already that this avenue of discussion where you resort to accusations is a dead end. Obviously not. You said that if you think about a specific thing in particular, then a particular part of your brain becomes active and that is what distinguishes that specific thought from other thoughts. There are an infinite amount of specific things I could think about, yet not an infinite amount of space in my brain. How do you get around that problem?

    On thought: I suppose you could say that thought is information processing except the information is not being processed because it has been programmed to be processed, but rather because we choose a thought to be processed. And we choose how a thought is to be processed. We can do what we want with it. This is where imagination comes in, which is another wondrous aspect of the mind.


    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #44 - May 11, 2009, 08:45 PM

    On gravity: So you think that ajdgoogbis tells us what gravity really is? Please clarify.

    Tlaloc was using that term to demonstrate what he regards as a flaw in your position. He was pointing out that your preferred "explanation" is actually no more of an explanation than "ajdgoogbis". Tlaloc was definitely not claiming that "ajdgoogbis" tells us anything worthwhile about gravity.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #45 - May 12, 2009, 07:08 AM

    On gravity: So you think that ajdgoogbis tells us what gravity really is? Please clarify.

    Tlaloc was using that term to demonstrate what he regards as a flaw in your position. He was pointing out that your preferred "explanation" is actually no more of an explanation than "ajdgoogbis". Tlaloc was definitely not claiming that "ajdgoogbis" tells us anything worthwhile about gravity.


    And I was simply helping him to make the analogy stronger between belief in mind and belief in ajdgoogbis by coming up with an actual reason for belief in ajdgoogbis, just as I came up with an actual reason for mind. Smiley

    If he has no actual reason to believe in ajdgoogbis then I should say that the analogy between the belief in mind and the belief in ajdgoogbis is very limited.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #46 - May 12, 2009, 10:12 AM

    I split the post to make it easier to follow and reply, and you clump it all together again? :\

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #47 - May 12, 2009, 10:16 AM

    And, you didn't come up with a reason.

    The gist of what you said is "such explanation is not satisfactory".
    And when asked what "satisfactory" is, you didn't provide for a way to tell.

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #48 - May 12, 2009, 10:25 AM

    On identifying consciousness in a foreign body: When you say that a robot is programmed to respond exactly as a human would respond, what do you mean exactly? If you mean that a robot is given consciousness, just as a human being has consciousness, well then it has consciousness.

    If you mean that a robot is programmed to respond in a way that is considered typical of human beings, then that robot's reaction to that stimuli will never change and that will show that the robot has been programmed and does not have consciousness.

    No, false dichotomy.

    You are supposing that an information processing system is either:
    1) A conscious being AND changing its reactions according to previous input
    or...
    2) Not conscious AND not changing its reactions by previous input

    Since basically all but the most useless computer programs change their behavior according to previous input, are you assuming they are conscious?

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #49 - May 12, 2009, 10:30 AM

    So I will reformulate.

    Let's take a human being. Let's call it "A".
    Let's take a machine, let's call it "B".

    If we assume that the amount of data that the human A can process and react to is a finite amount, we can also assume that a finite machine can exist that can process and react to information EXACTLY like A would.

    And with "EXACTLY" I also include the ability to remember all or part of any previous input, like a human does, and change its reaction accordingly.

    How could you tell A and B apart?

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #50 - May 12, 2009, 05:23 PM

    On identifying consciousness in a foreign body: When you say that a robot is programmed to respond exactly as a human would respond, what do you mean exactly? If you mean that a robot is given consciousness, just as a human being has consciousness, well then it has consciousness.

    If you mean that a robot is programmed to respond in a way that is considered typical of human beings, then that robot's reaction to that stimuli will never change and that will show that the robot has been programmed and does not have consciousness.

    No, false dichotomy.

    You are supposing that an information processing system is either:
    1) A conscious being AND changing its reactions according to previous input
    or...
    2) Not conscious AND not changing its reactions by previous input

    Since basically all but the most useless computer programs change their behavior according to previous input, are you assuming they are conscious?


    No, an information processing system is not conscious and does not change its reactions to a specific information input. The reaction to a specific information input is the same no matter how many times you do it.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #51 - May 12, 2009, 05:30 PM

    So I will reformulate.

    Let's take a human being. Let's call it "A".
    Let's take a machine, let's call it "B".

    If we assume that the amount of data that the human A can process and react to is a finite amount, we can also assume that a finite machine can exist that can process and react to information EXACTLY like A would.

    And with "EXACTLY" I also include the ability to remember all or part of any previous input, like a human does, and change its reaction accordingly.

    How could you tell A and B apart?


    A human can process and react to an infinite amount of data, not a finite amount of data.

    And what do you mean when you say that a machine is programmed to react to information EXACTLY like a human would? I already replied to this, by which I said that you could mean one of two things:

    a) EXACTLY as in you instill (hypothetically) consciousness in the robot. In which case, yes the robot has consciousness. There is no need to assess whether the robot has consciousness, because you know that you instilled it in him.

    b) EXACTLY as in it reacts in a typical human fashion. So, for example, it grinds its teeth and goes red every single time you slap them around the face. In which case, this would indicate that the robot was simply programmed and doesn't have consciousness.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #52 - May 12, 2009, 05:40 PM

    And, you didn't come up with a reason.

    The gist of what you said is "such explanation is not satisfactory".
    And when asked what "satisfactory" is, you didn't provide for a way to tell.


    I did come up with a reason.

    Let me demonstrate with vision.

    When I ask the neuroscientist to explain how we see, he talks of neurones and images that are formed in the eye or in the brain or in that which connect the brain to the eye. However, all this neuroscientist is telling me is how an image is formed in the brain, whether it is a fully formed image ready to view or currently in the form of electrical signals. So the neuroscientist has explained to me how an image is formed in my brain, to which I ask, "Great. So how do we see this image?" Science hasn't got the answer and I have reason to believe that science will never ever find the answer to this. It isn't in our language to explain seeing something. Seeing is an experience. It can never be equated into a formula. This tells us that seeing cannot be made up of atoms or anything examinable. Yet, seeing is, it isn't not.

    Therefore, I should say, that seeing is not physical, as it has no atoms or physical location or motion. That is all I am saying. I did not begin with the hypothesis that there is mind and reason my way up from there. It was the other way round. I don't even have to defend the view that there is mind, because all I believe is that there is something which is not physical, but which is nonetheless.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #53 - May 12, 2009, 05:50 PM

    Have you heard of the story of the person who can see, yet he is in a community of blind people who have never seen before?

    The person who can see tells them that he can see. The blind people have never come across this word "seeing" before, nor "vision" nor "colour" or "dark" or anything that can be associated with vision.

    The person tries to explain it to them, but their materialism and their scepticism, even makes him doubt that he can see. Maybe he is just pretending he can see, because he WANTS to see, he WANTS to have this sense he thinks nobody else has got. They dismiss the person with vision as talking nonsense. They say to him, "saying you believe in vision and have it yourself is like saying I believe in ajdgoogbis. It's nonsense. Now get over here and let us gauge your eyes out!"

    This story provides a strong criticism of falsificationism.

    Excuse me but I'm being hassled to revise :p (Have an exam tomorrow morning) Funnily enough, this is relevant to it.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #54 - May 13, 2009, 09:58 AM

    On identifying consciousness in a foreign body: When you say that a robot is programmed to respond exactly as a human would respond, what do you mean exactly? If you mean that a robot is given consciousness, just as a human being has consciousness, well then it has consciousness.

    If you mean that a robot is programmed to respond in a way that is considered typical of human beings, then that robot's reaction to that stimuli will never change and that will show that the robot has been programmed and does not have consciousness.

    No, false dichotomy.

    You are supposing that an information processing system is either:
    1) A conscious being AND changing its reactions according to previous input
    or...
    2) Not conscious AND not changing its reactions by previous input

    Since basically all but the most useless computer programs change their behavior according to previous input, are you assuming they are conscious?


    No, an information processing system is not conscious and does not change its reactions to a specific information input. The reaction to a specific information input is the same no matter how many times you do it.

    What the hell not?
    Where are you getting this from?

    Any Turing machine CAN change its internal state according to whatever input it is currently processing and, thus, have a different reaction the next time it receives identical input.

    What you are describing now is a "stateless system" (i.e. a system that does not have an internal "state register" and is thus unable to "remember" information) and you erroneously associate ANY information processing to that.

    And somehow you are implying that the "ability to remember information" is a property of consciousness? :S

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #55 - May 13, 2009, 10:06 AM

    A human can process and react to an infinite amount of data, not a finite amount of data.

    Oh?
    Are you saying that the amount of external sensory input a human has in a lifetime is INFINITE?
    Even if we have a finite number of receptors and each of them can process a finite amount of information in a finite amount of time?

    b) EXACTLY as in it reacts in a typical human fashion. So, for example, it grinds its teeth and goes red every single time you slap them around the face. In which case, this would indicate that the robot was simply programmed and doesn't have consciousness.

    This case.

    A machine that reacts to everything exactly like you would expect a human to react.
    It grinds teeth, goes red, can have a conversation about the weather, or talks about "its favorite hobby", and remembers what you say and even talks about "its feelings" and reacts in an appropriate way to represent those feelings.

    If you had this "perfect human simulator" and a human... and you did not know which is the human and which is the simulator... how could you tell who is conscious and who is not?

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #56 - May 13, 2009, 10:10 AM

    But I know that you are simply avoiding answering, because you would have to admit that you have NO way to tell if anything in this universe is actually conscious or not, besides yourself.

    Because you would have to base it all on how they SEEM to act in the physical world.

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #57 - May 13, 2009, 10:11 AM

    Or, to be precise, in what you perceive to be the physical world.

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #58 - May 13, 2009, 04:13 PM

    And, you didn't come up with a reason.

    The gist of what you said is "such explanation is not satisfactory".
    And when asked what "satisfactory" is, you didn't provide for a way to tell.


    I did come up with a reason.

    Let me demonstrate with vision.

    When I ask the neuroscientist to explain how we see, he talks of neurones and images that are formed in the eye or in the brain or in that which connect the brain to the eye. However, all this neuroscientist is telling me is how an image is formed in the brain, whether it is a fully formed image ready to view or currently in the form of electrical signals. So the neuroscientist has explained to me how an image is formed in my brain, to which I ask, "Great. So how do we see this image?" Science hasn't got the answer and I have reason to believe that science will never ever find the answer to this. It isn't in our language to explain seeing something. Seeing is an experience. It can never be equated into a formula. This tells us that seeing cannot be made up of atoms or anything examinable. Yet, seeing is, it isn't not.

    Therefore, I should say, that seeing is not physical, as it has no atoms or physical location or motion. That is all I am saying. I did not begin with the hypothesis that there is mind and reason my way up from there. It was the other way round. I don't even have to defend the view that there is mind, because all I believe is that there is something which is not physical, but which is nonetheless.

    What does your "HOW" mean then?

    Using an analogy with gravity, you also cannot explain at all HOW gravity actually pulls masses close to each other.
    You might say "well, any mass bends space and time". To which one can ask "well, HOW does it bend space? so HOW does it actually pull masses together?"

    You can play this "i am not satisfied with any answer" and believe there is more to... anything

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: 'Consciousness signature' discovered spanning the brain
     Reply #59 - May 13, 2009, 04:16 PM

    Have you heard of the story of the person who can see, yet he is in a community of blind people who have never seen before?

    The person who can see tells them that he can see. The blind people have never come across this word "seeing" before, nor "vision" nor "colour" or "dark" or anything that can be associated with vision.

    The person tries to explain it to them, but their materialism and their scepticism, even makes him doubt that he can see. Maybe he is just pretending he can see, because he WANTS to see, he WANTS to have this sense he thinks nobody else has got. They dismiss the person with vision as talking nonsense. They say to him, "saying you believe in vision and have it yourself is like saying I believe in ajdgoogbis. It's nonsense. Now get over here and let us gauge your eyes out!"

    This story provides a strong criticism of falsificationism.

    Excuse me but I'm being hassled to revise :p (Have an exam tomorrow morning) Funnily enough, this is relevant to it.

    And the person that can see can actually demonstrate that he can see.

    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
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