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Theme Changer

 Topic: Hierarchy of Welcomehood

 (Read 9508 times)
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  • Hierarchy of Welcomehood
     OP - February 06, 2009, 08:47 AM

    Article from the guardian.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/feb/05/race-immigration

    White, English-speaking? Come on in. Poor, Asian? Get lost. It's time we addressed our prejudices towards migrants

        1. Americans:

    They're wealthy, speak perfect(ish) English, and we know all about their superior culture because we consume it 24/7. (I won't mention African Americans ? who, if the experiences of Diana Ross, Snoop Dogg, or Busta Rhymes are anything to go by, might not be viewed by our immigration services in quite the same light. We've yet to discover if they'd let Barack Obama through without a strip-search.)

        2. Other white English-speaking nations:

    you know, South Africans, Australians, Canadians, New Zealanders. They all look up to the Queen, and if you go back enough generations they're just like us Brits, really.

        3. Northern European non-English speakers:

    they may not speak English fluently, but they're very hardworking, and very clever ? they all speak about five languages ? and they're as rich as us, too

        4. Southern European non-English speakers:

     they're fun, full of passion, provide a bit of exotica lite, and they're not that much poorer than us. But with their siestas they tend to be a bit lazy; and hot-headed too.

    All the above are, for the most part, welcome; and we're so comfortable with them that we rarely if ever perceive them as immigrants. After the Lindsey protests, though, category 4 is in danger of being relegated.

        *5. Irish:

    The one exception to the western European rule. Nine centuries of anti-Irish prejudice, and their position as a colonial outpost for most of that time, has embedded itself into English culture so much that, though they're almost as wealthy as Brits, they are still not one of us.

        6. Eastern Europeans:

    Poor, and can't speak the language. And they can't be as good as us, because they do the jobs we Brits don't want to do.

        7. East Asians:

    From wealthy and/or powerful nations (China, Japan, Korea). Hardworking and intelligent (see the school results for those Chinese children born here). Still, though, they've got a different culture, and a totally alien language. And even the husband of our Queen doesn't like their eyes.

        8. South Asians (from non-Muslim countries):

    Hardworking and intelligent, like east Asians, but here in greater numbers, so a bit more threatening. They keep to themselves; have their own language, culture and religion. Different food, different smells, and you wouldn't want one as a neighbour.

        9. Latin Americans:

     Not been here very long, and not in large numbers, so haven't worked out a good reason to dislike them yet. But relatively poor, and don't speak the language, so will probably end up being a drain on the system.

        10. Caribbeans: Jamaicans; yardies; muggers;

    black-on-black gun crime; ghettoes; need we go on? We love Bob Marley, though. And they play cricket.

        11. Africans:

    war, famine, HIV, corruption. I mean, we gave them the chance to run their countries themselves, and look what a mess they made. Oh, and Robert Mugabe.

        12. Arabs, and Asians from Muslim countries:

    Are you crazy? You just need to see their names to know they're terrorists. You, drop everything! Put your hands up! Don't make me pull the trigger, by breathing or something!

    oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, this is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!"
  • Re: Hierarchy of Welcomehood
     Reply #1 - February 06, 2009, 09:00 AM

    Seems pretty accurate, but it needs the intro parragraph; author cred.'d be nice too Cheesy.

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Hierarchy of Welcomehood
     Reply #2 - February 06, 2009, 09:06 AM

    I didn't think any non-English speakers were very welcome? Or at least those who tend not to integrate with the community and try to learn the local language. I know they are the ones who piss me off the most.
  • Re: Hierarchy of Welcomehood
     Reply #3 - February 06, 2009, 09:13 AM

    Well, to be very frank I can't particularly blame the Brits. If it was a firm recruiting, the firm would also look for the people it considered most suitable right? It would be most welcoming to the people from reputed Universities, say an Oxford University graduate would be most welcome, and it would also look for people with the best work ethic. It certainly would be wary of  people with criminal backgrounds.

    Or if a person was taking in paying guests. He or she would take paying guests most likely to behave, most likely to get along with the landlady and it would certainly refuse paying guests who've commited murders of landladies in the past! Thats' not called prejudice, just requisite safety measures. Roll Eyes

    Why is a country any different?

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Hierarchy of Welcomehood
     Reply #4 - February 06, 2009, 09:59 AM

    That article adds absolutely nothing to the debate about immigration.  Its just a piece of mental masturbation on the part of the author. 

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Hierarchy of Welcomehood
     Reply #5 - February 06, 2009, 10:07 AM

    This belongs in the Rant arena.

    I was not blessed with the ability to have blind faith. I cant beleive something just because someone says its true.
  • Re: Hierarchy of Welcomehood
     Reply #6 - February 06, 2009, 10:09 AM

    That's not neccessarily true. I could see loads of mistakes all over the show.
  • Re: Hierarchy of Welcomehood
     Reply #7 - February 06, 2009, 10:36 AM

    It's interesting to note that the posters opposed to the article are non ex-Muslims. Maybe more will come forward.
    On some topics there seems to be a divide between the opinions of the non ex-Muslims and ex-Muslims.   

    oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, this is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!"
  • Re: Hierarchy of Welcomehood
     Reply #8 - February 06, 2009, 10:52 AM

    Well, to be very frank I can't particularly blame the Brits. If it was a firm recruiting, the firm would also look for the people it considered most suitable right? It would be most welcoming to the people from reputed Universities, say an Oxford University graduate would be most welcome, and it would also look for people with the best work ethic. It certainly would be wary of  people with criminal backgrounds.

    Or if a person was taking in paying guests. He or she would take paying guests most likely to behave, most likely to get along with the landlady and it would certainly refuse paying guests who've commited murders of landladies in the past! Thats' not called prejudice, just requisite safety measures. Roll Eyes

    Why is a country any different?



    Not sure what you mean by this?  Students get into Oxford University based on their individual academic achievements, and if an employer requires these skills then, yes, they are more likely to be employed.  Similar analogy with the landlady, these are traits that the individual has been proven to show, and not ones she requires. 

    However race & religious bias is different, as it predjudices an entire group of people on the actions of a few individuals.  The landlady is a good analogy as she is the host, as is the country of residence.

    Are you implying it is OK for the landlady to discriminate her tenants on the basis of skin colour, religion or country of origin? 

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hierarchy of Welcomehood
     Reply #9 - February 06, 2009, 12:12 PM

    Are you implying it is OK for the landlady to discriminate her tenants on the basis of skin colour, religion or country of origin? 

    Not at all. I wouldn't support such a landlady's actions but I couldn't help having a wee bit sympathy in certain circumstances. Just look at the pedophilia scandals which hit the Catholic Church some time back. In the immediate aftermath of the scandals, many parents would be somewhat wary leaving their kids with Catholic priests, as pedophilia can cause tremendous damage to a child's life, and of course any parent would want to protect their child.

    Likewise terrorism is a very serious thing. Its an unfortunate but undeniable fact that terrorists in U.K. came from particular religious backgrounds, and while I understand that its unfair to discriminate on an entire population due to the actions of a few, the few can and did cause terrible damage to many Brits' lives and limbs.Quite a few terror plots have been foiled but there's no guarantee that there won't be an attack.

    Just like parents have a somewhat genuine reason to be wary of potential pedophile priests although very few priests are pedophiles, its natural for citizens' to be vary. Kiss

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Hierarchy of Welcomehood
     Reply #10 - February 06, 2009, 12:47 PM

    Thankfully there are not that many symapthizers around, otherwise most of the British ex-Muslims on this forum would not be living here..

    I think a test/interview would be more appropriate over such a blatant & discriminatory bias against colour, creed & nationality, but you are entitled to your opinion.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hierarchy of Welcomehood
     Reply #11 - February 06, 2009, 03:22 PM

    It's interesting to note that the posters opposed to the article are non ex-Muslims. Maybe more will come forward.
    On some topics there seems to be a divide between the opinions of the non ex-Muslims and ex-Muslims.   


    Not really. Rashna and Peruvian are both ex-Muslims. Both of them didn't think much of the article.

    I'm not ex-Muslim and I'd say the article has elements of truth in it but suffers from the fault of all generalisations, in that it paints with too broad a brush.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Hierarchy of Welcomehood
     Reply #12 - February 06, 2009, 04:00 PM


    Not really. Rashna and Peruvian are both ex-Muslims. Both of them didn't think much of the article.



    Are you reading their post? What part of their comments give you that impression?


    oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, this is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!"
  • Re: Hierarchy of Welcomehood
     Reply #13 - February 06, 2009, 04:08 PM

    They aren't exactly lauding the article in question.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Hierarchy of Welcomehood
     Reply #14 - February 06, 2009, 05:25 PM


    Not really. Rashna and Peruvian are both ex-Muslims. Both of them didn't think much of the article.



    Are you reading their post? What part of their comments give you that impression?



    Osmanthus is right, I think perhaps you are reading too much into my post Wink
  • Re: Hierarchy of Welcomehood
     Reply #15 - February 06, 2009, 06:17 PM


    Not really. Rashna and Peruvian are both ex-Muslims. Both of them didn't think much of the article.



    Are you reading their post? What part of their comments give you that impression?



    Osmanthus is right, I think perhaps you are reading too much into my post Wink


    Fair enough.

    What do you mean by "at least those who tend not to integrate with the community and try to learn the local language. I know they are the ones who piss me off the most."  Who are you talking about? Are you integrated with the community and would you say you are welcomed *here.

    *I don't think you have made a thread in introductions. I don?t know your ethnicity but I assume you are in a country which is not the birth place of you or maybe your parents.

    oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, this is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!"
  • Re: Hierarchy of Welcomehood
     Reply #16 - February 07, 2009, 08:34 PM

    Fair enough.

    What do you mean by "at least those who tend not to integrate with the community and try to learn the local language. I know they are the ones who piss me off the most."  Who are you talking about? Are you integrated with the community and would you say you are welcomed *here.

    *I don't think you have made a thread in introductions. I don?t know your ethnicity but I assume you are in a country which is not the birth place of you or maybe your parents.

    I meant people who move to Britain, never bother to learn the local language, send the whole time here racially insulting white people with their fellow non-english speaking family/friends.
    Quite a few of the adults who came from pakistan in my family do this. It pisses me off, what's the bloody point of coming here if you're just going to hurl insults at the inhabitant the whole time!

    (I'm from pakistan too but moved here when I was really young)
  • Re: Hierarchy of Welcomehood
     Reply #17 - February 08, 2009, 12:05 AM

    Article from the guardian.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/feb/05/race-immigration

    White, English-speaking? Come on in. Poor, Asian? Get lost. It's time we addressed our prejudices towards migrants

        1. Americans:

    They're wealthy, speak perfect(ish) English, and we know all about their superior culture because we consume it 24/7. (I won't mention African Americans ? who, if the experiences of Diana Ross, Snoop Dogg, or Busta Rhymes are anything to go by, might not be viewed by our immigration services in quite the same light. We've yet to discover if they'd let Barack Obama through without a strip-search.)

        2. Other white English-speaking nations:

    you know, South Africans, Australians, Canadians, New Zealanders. They all look up to the Queen, and if you go back enough generations they're just like us Brits, really.

        3. Northern European non-English speakers:

    they may not speak English fluently, but they're very hardworking, and very clever ? they all speak about five languages ? and they're as rich as us, too

        4. Southern European non-English speakers:

     they're fun, full of passion, provide a bit of exotica lite, and they're not that much poorer than us. But with their siestas they tend to be a bit lazy; and hot-headed too.

    All the above are, for the most part, welcome; and we're so comfortable with them that we rarely if ever perceive them as immigrants. After the Lindsey protests, though, category 4 is in danger of being relegated.

        *5. Irish:

    The one exception to the western European rule. Nine centuries of anti-Irish prejudice, and their position as a colonial outpost for most of that time, has embedded itself into English culture so much that, though they're almost as wealthy as Brits, they are still not one of us.

        6. Eastern Europeans:

    Poor, and can't speak the language. And they can't be as good as us, because they do the jobs we Brits don't want to do.

        7. East Asians:

    From wealthy and/or powerful nations (China, Japan, Korea). Hardworking and intelligent (see the school results for those Chinese children born here). Still, though, they've got a different culture, and a totally alien language. And even the husband of our Queen doesn't like their eyes.

        8. South Asians (from non-Muslim countries):

    Hardworking and intelligent, like east Asians, but here in greater numbers, so a bit more threatening. They keep to themselves; have their own language, culture and religion. Different food, different smells, and you wouldn't want one as a neighbour.

        9. Latin Americans:

     Not been here very long, and not in large numbers, so haven't worked out a good reason to dislike them yet. But relatively poor, and don't speak the language, so will probably end up being a drain on the system.

        10. Caribbeans: Jamaicans; yardies; muggers;

    black-on-black gun crime; ghettoes; need we go on? We love Bob Marley, though. And they play cricket.

        11. Africans:

    war, famine, HIV, corruption. I mean, we gave them the chance to run their countries themselves, and look what a mess they made. Oh, and Robert Mugabe.

        12. Arabs, and Asians from Muslim countries:

    Are you crazy? You just need to see their names to know they're terrorists. You, drop everything! Put your hands up! Don't make me pull the trigger, by breathing or something!


    Here we go. So according to this simplistic load of righteous Leftist bollox. The UK is inherently institutionally racist, the white British are nasty racists and our immigration policies are draconian, racist (there's that word again) and full of hate for poor people.

    What utter crap. Yes it is easier for rich people to emmigrate because they are rich....DOH

    I recently emigrated to an Asian country but I'm illegal because I can't afford to own my own business and they wont give work permits to anyone who doesn't have the money to start a business, employ four indigenous staff and pay a flat rate of 10000 local currency in foreigner tax a month, plus all of the hidden charges and dodgy bribes that need to be paid to be left in peace. OHH the racism, oh the prejudice...They must be evil.

    I have traveled the world and the UK is one of the only countries where the majority of people are anti racist.

    Most countries populations are openly racist, there is no stigma about racism anywhere else but in the West, the only truly multi racial, multi cultural societies are in the West but of course according to A_G and this article we are the root of all evil.

    Yes there is profiling done by our customs officials, that is not racist. If most drugs gangs are Colombians and Jamaicans it doesn't make sense to strip search Swedes and Australians does it. Doh!

    This article could have been written by an angry teenager. It's pathetic and typical Guardian fare. Whoever wrote it is an utter spud.

    People like A_G and who ever wrote this article wont be happy until Britain and America have an open door immigration policy and the white populations spend a century living in mud huts wearing hair shirts and beating themselves publicly as they apologise for slavery, colonialism, Iraq, The Falklands, Prince Philip, George Bush, The Boer War, Suez, Nicaragua, The Shah of Iran, Spam and bad dancing......

    This mindset is not one of anti racism and concern for the poor immigrants it is pure class warfare and envy. It seeks to demonise rich nations and accuse white people of being bad to the core.


    Spuds of the world unite....REVOLUTION   
  • Re: Hierarchy of Welcomehood
     Reply #18 - February 08, 2009, 12:42 AM

    Now to see if any of those who consider themselves leftists will be able to explain how a piece that is as poorly written as this can actually pass without being deconstructed. I can imagine someone who is fairly young going to uni and meeting up with some old buzzard of forty to fiftysomething vintage. The type who has been a "life-long" student and will say such inanities in the course of a conversation that somehow induces a sense of epiphany in the eyes of the gullible.  There's no real political theory in that article but it does employ a rhetoric of resentment  that is easily shoehorned for whatever the political leanings of those who assume the same flippant attitudes. It's too easy to market and more than one person has bought into it. 
  • Re: Hierarchy of Welcomehood
     Reply #19 - February 08, 2009, 12:59 AM

    Are you an ex Muslim Ansar?
  • Re: Hierarchy of Welcomehood
     Reply #20 - February 08, 2009, 05:03 AM

    Here is the rest of the offending article. It was written by a spud called Joseph Harker. What puerile simplistic bullshit.

    It oozes prejudice and is saturated in the righteousness of someone who believes that the world is against them. Just like a teenager screaming "It's not fair"

    How anyone can take this as serious comment is beyond me.

    Immigration from rich countries like America, Germany or New Zealand has gone relatively unnoticed not because of prejudice and racism but because these immigrants don't tend to have tight communities which form ghettos or monocultural areas.

    Can you please tell me where the German, Swedish or American areas in London are and how those immigrants have changed the culture in those areas.

    There is a massive difference between a bunch of rich people dispersing into a country and living independently especially when their culture is so similar to the indigenous culture.

    A big community with a distinct culture that is totally different than the host culture is bound to create more waves than immigration from rich English speaking nations.

    It doesn't mean that Britain is racist it means that Americans living in Hampstead or Kensington with no tight knit community go relatively unnoticed and an area like Brick Lane with all of it's mosques, amazing restaurants, people wearing shalwar kameez and talking a different language have a massive impact on the host culture.

    He talks about the fact that Polish people are welcomed because they are hard working, do the jobs us despicable lazy British wont. He mentions that the Chinese are treated ok because they are intelligent but we don't like their eyes!!!!!!What an utter twat.

    Lets be honest there are hardly any conflicts between London's Chinese community and any other community because on the whole the Chinese are not confrontational and people don't find Chinese culture threatening.

    There are conflicts with Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Somalian and Jamaican communities because these are troubled communities with a lot of angry young men who are constantly told by idiots like Joseph Harker that they are being victimised.

    Of course it is going to be more difficult for a Somalian immigrant than a Canadian one. The Somalian community suffer from high crime levels and religious fundamentalism. It might be unfair but it is only natural that people from troubled parts of the world will find it more difficult to emigrate.

    No nasty racism involved, when was the last time a Chinese gang of youths kicked off big time with baseball bats and knives, when was the last time the Japanese community in Golders Green took to the streets to demand the banning of a book whilst burning effigies of foreign heads of state.

    The fact that so many foreign people have settled successfully in the UK shows that the main cause of the problems for these troubled communities is not racism but a myriad of other problems from religion to parenting and beyond.

    If Indian, Chinese and Iranian communities can do well despite suffering from racism then the root of the problem in these troubled communities is not the BNP or racist teachers and policemen but something else.

    Get some perspective and stop blaming everything on racist white oppressors.



       
    The Hierarchy of Welcomehood

    White, English-speaking? Come on in. Poor, Asian? Get lost. It's time we addressed our prejudices towards migrants


    By Joseph Harker


    "One of the most interesting, though least commented-upon aspects of the Lindsey oil refinery dispute is that this is the first time British workers have got up in arms about immigrants from western Europe*.

    We're used to seeing protests and unrest about migrants from Africa, Asia, Poland or Romania. But there has always been a welcome mat for those from the wealthier economies, despite any differences in language and culture. In security terms, they're seen as a "low threat level" to the British way of life: their arrival here, no matter how large the numbers, has gone unremarked; on the other hand, those from many other countries, no matter how wealthy the individuals, have been swept up in negative stereotypes and labelled "not welcome". Isn't it time these underlying and unequal perceptions were addressed?

    Many people like to claim that there's no "hierarchy of victimhood". They're nearly all middle class whites, with no perception of the combination of discrimination and marginalisation. They'd believe, for example, that a white male public-school Oxbridge company director, who's hit 50 and because of his age now has to consider a career in middle-management (oh, the pain!) to have suffered the same damage to life chances as a black schoolkid, labelled a troublemaker by his teachers because of his race, who's become disaffected and got into trouble with the police, ended up with a criminal record and has lost any chance of a decent job, let alone a career.

    Yes, the director's disadvantage is wrong and should be addressed. But OF COURSE there's a hierarchy of victimhood!

    But since I don't want to court controversy, I'll stick to migration alone (trying to stick to nationality rather than race), and ? in order to help us understand the immigration debate ? attempt to define instead a 12-point Hierarchy of Welcomehood, starting with those for whom Brits are most happy to roll out the carpet"   
  • Re: Hierarchy of Welcomehood
     Reply #21 - February 08, 2009, 10:56 AM

    well put Brucepig, your honesty & fearless approach may be one that will eventually get to the answers behind the problem - what do you think is the solution?

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: Hierarchy of Welcomehood
     Reply #22 - February 08, 2009, 10:01 PM

    It's difficult as the global population booms and resources get more scarce tensions are more likely to arise and immigration policies tighten but the solution certainly isn't to demonise wealthy and poor white people as racists.

    That's just the politics of envy and an abject reveling in the victimhood mentality.

    It's even less likely to solve the problem than my provocative honesty. Although honesty should never be unwelcome.

    I think this is all about the empowering but retarding conception of identity politics.

    Troubled minorities are empowered by identifying defiantly (As if it were a revolutionary act in itself) with their cultural identity thus separating themselves from the mainstream.

    Then the Left wing discourse rewards those minority communities that are in perpetual melt down the more angry, outraged and offended they become the more oppressed and noble they are. The more blameless and supported they become.

    The Left have made a fetish out of third world culture and perpetual victimhood.

    So it feeds itself, a vicious circle that retards that community and condemns subsequent generations to grow up with the same problems that the previous generations grew up with.

    If an intrinsic part of your identity is that the world is against you so it will be.

    I have highly successful black friends and they succeed because they don't see the world as hostile to them. Call them Uncle Tom if you must but their black skin is obviously not a bar to success, the anger and the hostility of someone who thinks the world is out to get them is the barrier to success.

    As I have said before, we are like mirrors. If I see the world as hostile I will be hostile towards the world and bingo, it will be hostile right back to me confirming to me what my community has told me about the innate racism of whitey and how the system is stacked against me.

    Once this realisation has dawned on me I will be even more confrontational.

    I will be ready to explode at the slightest wrong look or remark and my body language will say don't fuck with me, I will most likely have conflicts in school and work then blame any bad reactions to my hostile adversarial approach on the racism of the teachers and my peers etc

    The next step is usually crime then prison. If I go to prison am I a victim of a racist society or my own attitude and the identity politics which I was entranced by?

    Just think about the recent American elections. How many black people bemoaned that Barak Obama wasn't black enough. What does that mean? Not street enough, not angry enough, not offended and full of the righteous indignation Joseph Harker is displaying, not concerned with his machismo enough, too well educated?

    What does "not black enough mean", it seems to me that people like Jesse Jackson wanted Obama to be more like a radical black panther stereo type screaming for reparations than the considered and eloquent human being that a nation could unite behind.

    It's thinking like this which is a bigger problem to these communities than the BNP or the KKK. Imagine how difficult it is for a successful black student in Hackney or a Somalian student in Somerstown. They don't fear the BNP but they do fear their black peers who will bully them mercilessly for being a coconut or a Kuffar etc.


    It's time for people to stop with the offence, anger and identity politics, It's time for the Left to stop encouraging and cheering it on.

    Only then can these communities free themselves from the painful problems that they suffer from. They are strong enough to stand up to racism but at the moment many in these communities are not willing to let go of the security blanket of rage and blame that is eating them alive.

    The proof is in the pudding. Both the Pakistani and Indian communities suffer from racism but the Indian community is successful and the Pakistani community is suffering.

    Is it Islamophobia and a tough/racist immigration policy which is to blame or an increasingly radicalised culture and theology which teaches that Western freedom and culture is decadent and evil and that The Koran is the font of all knowledge?



    What do you think?
  • Re: Hierarchy of Welcomehood
     Reply #23 - February 09, 2009, 01:21 AM

     yes Nice post.  Afro

    But I have to say, I doubt very many people want to change their thinking, since it's so much easier to blame a scapegoat instead of yourself.

    It's going to take a paradigm shift for a majority of people to stop being self-gratifying asshats.

    On a related note.

    It amuses me how many so called leaders, resemble toddlers in the way they blame everyone but themselves for problems. Throw temper tantrums when they don't get their own way. Have no clue that the whole world doesn't revolve around them. And act all sweet and charismatic, till something screws up, and they turn into the spawn of Cthulhu.   

    I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I remain.
  • Re: Hierarchy of Welcomehood
     Reply #24 - February 09, 2009, 06:33 AM

    But what do you think is the solution?

    I think seemingly tougher immigration policies for different races & colours, prominent politicians openly criticising immigrants, the communities themselves,  racism from less educated classes, priests & mullahs radicalising religion, as you say perpetual victimisation to justify inadequacies (you may see animation_guy may as an example rather than a product, but sadly I think you too are beginning to sound like a victim of your own mantra) and double standard politics are all to blame. 

    They all justify and breed on the mentality of subjugation and promote differences resulting in alienation.  The problem does not just apply to ethnic minorities, but between white people also i.e. those on the fringe of society, rich & poor, middle & working classes and between different races e.g East Europeans, Irish, Scots, Catholics etc

    Once the rot has set in, it is difficult to eradicate and can get worse if left uncontrolled. The problems is not immigration, the bigger problem is home grown.

    The secularist agenda needs to be promoted as the society becomes a larger melting pot, individual societies roles weakened and the United Nations role strengthened and an international agenda worked on.

    Perhaps a Secularist political party as it becomes more popular, that talks about humanistic principles, equal opportunities and promotes togetherness - radical policies such as diverting resources from the church to secularist schools, defining what makes a model UK citizen with an immigration policy to match,  banning active religious indoctrination in schools (e.g. the Lords prayer) and keeping religious education for parents or as part of history our classes; and replacing it with lessons based on humanistic principles could all help, as well as many others based upon this more inclusive movement.

    These are my immediate thoughts and maybe wrong - however my point is this is the debate we should be having instead of knee-jerk reactions & policies based upon our differences, as opposed to our similarities which are far more.

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  • Re: Hierarchy of Welcomehood
     Reply #25 - February 09, 2009, 06:37 AM

    That is the debate we should be having, that's why this pathetic diatribe from Johnathon Harker about how the mean Brits prefer the Americans to the Chinese strikes me as an irrelevant distraction.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Hierarchy of Welcomehood
     Reply #26 - February 09, 2009, 07:03 AM

    I do believe immigrants now have to do a test on 'Britishness' as part of their application for residency.

    One of the problems with immigrants is unwillingness to integrate. The setting up of communities in certain areas that have little interaction with the wider societies causes conflict and resentment. Especially when distorted reports of they getting preferential treatment is reported nationally.

    I have no problem with people keeping their culture and beliefs, but really it should be personal and not affect association with other communities if they are not keen on it.

    When you come to this country, you should come to accept the culture here also and fit it in with yours, not condemn the host's culture as evil. You must accept that your children will eventually assimilate, and not chastise them when they do. If your major concern is adhering to your religion and culture to a T then you should not expect life to be easy in a foreign land.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Hierarchy of Welcomehood
     Reply #27 - February 09, 2009, 07:38 AM

    I'm not even sure integration is that important on the grand scale of things. Of course it's preferable that people integrate but I'm not sure a lack of integration is at the root of our problems.

    The Chinese community are very insular and there are many Chinese who don't learn the language but their community is not wracked by feelings of superiority, humiliation and victimhood. Also young Chinese men don't tend to have a culture of aggressive machismo. Hence the Chinese community don't have many conflicts and has become a thriving success.

  • Re: Hierarchy of Welcomehood
     Reply #28 - February 09, 2009, 07:59 AM

    I'm not even sure integration is that important on the grand scale of things. Of course it's preferable that people integrate but I'm not sure a lack of integration is at the root of our problems.

    The Chinese community are very insular and there are many Chinese who don't learn the language but their community is not wracked by feelings of superiority, humiliation and victimhood. Also young Chinese men don't tend to have a culture of aggressive machismo. Hence the Chinese community don't have many conflicts and has become a thriving success.


    You are only looking at all these communities from one aspect - however if you take the Chinese community as an example, how much more successfully have they assimilated compared to those other groups you mentioned?  Do you see them in the media or politics (which the others seem to have done).  Just because they don't offend you, it does not mean they have necessarily successfully integrated?

    I think we can all learn from this group as well as all the other cultures, once we have a meeting of minds and we are all on the same track i.e. one where we all wish the best for the long term development of this society, and the next.

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  • Re: Hierarchy of Welcomehood
     Reply #29 - February 09, 2009, 08:00 AM

    I'm not claiming that the white population doesn't have it's fair share of victimhood mentality but lets face it there is not much sympathy for white people who blame their problems on the racism of minorities or some kind of middle class conspiracy to keep them down.

    I can think of lots of problems from binge drinking to violence but all we do is throw our hands up and condemn those who get up to such foolishness as ignorant chavs and council scum. Lower beings who would inevitably do these things. No one shifts the blame onto an oppressor or seeks to understand why they do such things. If they do seek to understand, the usual answer is identical to Jonathan Harkers, why?

    It's the innate racist and violent urge of the British character bubbling up. Bigoted council scum the lot of em.

    According to the Left it's chavs who are the oppressive racist thugs who terrorise our immigrants after all. they are to blame not to be understood.

    For me it's this lopsided view of the world which is causing so many of our problems.
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