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 Topic: 72 Virgins

 (Read 20263 times)
  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • 72 Virgins
     OP - January 16, 2009, 02:05 PM
    Hello,

    I've always been a bit unclear of what awaits Muslims (particularly men) in paradise. From what I know, the Quran and the hadiths states that there will be 72 virgins that awaits each Muslim men that die as a Martyr.

    Recently the word that has been used to refer to the virgins has been argued by a scholar as being "white grapes," and has been "misinterpreted." How on Earth the word of an Omnipotent god can be mistranslated escapes me. Not to mention the "white grape" translation makes no sense to me either....

    Can one of you clear up for me as to what it is really referring to?

    Thank you.

    Call me TAP TAP! for I am THE ASS PATTER!
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #1 - January 16, 2009, 02:22 PM
    The Qur'an talks about Hour il'ayn which literally means intense white eyed and refers to the beauty of these women with intensely white eyes and black pupils.

    That has always been the traditional understanding.

    Modern understanding is whatever you fancy.

    The 72 virgins is from Hadith.

    Personally neither the the Huril'ayn or the 72 virgins loomed large in my mind when I was a Muslim and as a result played no part in my rejecting Islam.
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #2 - January 16, 2009, 02:24 PM
    I think the Syriac angle has introduced this idea of "white grapes".

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Syro-Aramaic_Reading_Of_The_Koran
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #3 - January 16, 2009, 02:29 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on January 16, 2009, 02:22 PM
    The Qur'an talks about Hour il'ayn which literally means intense white eyed and refers to the beauty of these women with intensely white eyes and black pupils.

    That has always been the traditional understanding.

    Modern understanding is whatever you fancy.

    The 72 virgins is from Hadith.

    Personally neither the the Huril'ayn or the 72 virgins loomed large in my mind when I was a Muslim and as a result played no part in my rejecting Islam.


    My mistake. I meant to say that the Quran describes the women  in paradise and Hadith confirms it as 72 virgins. That's how I always understood it as anyways.



    Call me TAP TAP! for I am THE ASS PATTER!
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #4 - January 16, 2009, 02:31 PM
    Quote from: speaklow on January 16, 2009, 02:24 PM
    I think the Syriac angle has introduced this idea of "white grapes".

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Syro-Aramaic_Reading_Of_The_Koran


    I never heard of this. Thanks for the link  Afro
    Call me TAP TAP! for I am THE ASS PATTER!
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #5 - January 17, 2009, 12:47 AM
    Quote from: Tommy on January 16, 2009, 02:29 PM


    My mistake. I meant to say that the Quran describes the women  in paradise and Hadith confirms it as 72 virgins. That's how I always understood it as anyways.



    Please quote me the Hadith, source and links, which talk of 72 virgins. Thanks

    BMZ
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #6 - January 17, 2009, 01:16 AM
    Quote from: BMZ on January 17, 2009, 12:47 AM
    Please quote me the Hadith, source and links, which talk of 72 virgins. Thanks

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houri#.2272_Virgins.22

    However, the arguement that Hur al-'Ayn are white grapes falls on it's ass when this is read:

    Quote
    "(For the dwellers of paradise will be) Houris restrained in pavilions... Whom no man or jinn has opened their hymens before them." Qur'an 55:72-74

    "...and We shall marry them to Houris with wide, lovely eyes." Qur'an 44:54, 52:20

    "...A houri is a girl of tender age, having large breasts which are round (pointed), and not inclined to dangle...." Sunan at-Tirmidhi

    Almost inspires me to be pious  Wink.
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #7 - January 17, 2009, 01:54 AM
    Allahu akbar! 
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #8 - January 17, 2009, 06:06 AM
    Quote from: awais on January 17, 2009, 01:16 AM
    Quote from: BMZ on January 17, 2009, 12:47 AM
    Please quote me the Hadith, source and links, which talk of 72 virgins. Thanks

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houri#.2272_Virgins.22

    However, the arguement that Hur al-'Ayn are white grapes falls on it's ass when this is read:

    Quote
    "(For the dwellers of paradise will be) Houris restrained in pavilions... Whom no man or jinn has opened their hymens before them." Qur'an 55:72-74

    "...and We shall marry them to Houris with wide, lovely eyes." Qur'an 44:54, 52:20

    "...A houri is a girl of tender age, having large breasts which are round (pointed), and not inclined to dangle...." Sunan at-Tirmidhi

    Almost inspires me to be pious  Wink.



    Hi awais,

    Are the verses regarding the huori quoted by the author of the Syriac book and your verses in close proximity to one another or could one verse be perpetuating a mistranslation of another.

    Just interested.
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #9 - January 17, 2009, 06:20 AM
    Quote from: speaklow on January 17, 2009, 06:06 AM
    Hi awais,

    Are the verses regarding the huori quoted by the author of the Syriac book and your verses in close proximity to one another or could one verse be perpetuating a mistranslation of another.

    Just interested.

    Heh, the only verse he could use that is not as explicit as the ones I have is:

    Quote
    "And (for the dwellers of paradise there will be) Hur al-'Ayn, like unto preserved pearls. 56:22-23

    That's the only way he could wiggle his 'grapes' in there.

    He means to highlight examples not as explicit as mine, just to knock Islam, and muslims. If he really wants to knock Islam, he should make his contentions on firm arguments, and not wobbly shit he makes up. He also contends that the Qur'an originated in Aramaic. It doesn't. Some of the language may have links, because it is a close Semitic relative, but there is no historical evidence, besides his conjecture.

    Quote
    "And they have no knowledge of it, they only conjecture." 45:24

    A knowledgable muslim (used to be me) could easily knock him on his ass.
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #10 - January 17, 2009, 07:50 AM
    Quote from: Tommy on January 16, 2009, 02:05 PM
    Hello,

    I've always been a bit unclear of what awaits Muslims (particularly men) in paradise. From what I know, the Quran and the hadiths states that there will be 72 virgins that awaits each Muslim men that die as a Martyr.

    Recently the word that has been used to refer to the virgins has been argued by a scholar as being "white grapes," and has been "misinterpreted." How on Earth the word of an Omnipotent god can be mistranslated escapes me. Not to mention the "white grape" translation makes no sense to me either....

    Can one of you clear up for me as to what it is really referring to?

    Thank you.

    From my understanding, all men receive 'houris', but the martyrs receive the most and the best reward in paradise. In heaven men are reunited with their wives from earth and they also get houris in heaven. Women don't feel jealousy in heaven so it's not a problem...
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #11 - January 17, 2009, 02:54 PM
    72 virgins, eh? They're probably all male computer geeks...
    "At 8:47 I do a grenade jump off a ladder."
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #12 - January 18, 2009, 01:48 AM
    so what awaits women in heaven? more men to serve?  Roll Eyes


    Quod est inferius est sicut quod est superius,
    et quod est superius est sicut quod est inferius,
    ad perpetranda miracula rei unius.
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #13 - January 18, 2009, 02:01 AM
    Quote from: awais on January 17, 2009, 06:20 AM
    Quote from: speaklow on January 17, 2009, 06:06 AM
    Hi awais,

    Are the verses regarding the huori quoted by the author of the Syriac book and your verses in close proximity to one another or could one verse be perpetuating a mistranslation of another.

    Just interested.

    Heh, the only verse he could use that is not as explicit as the ones I have is:

    Quote
    "And (for the dwellers of paradise there will be) Hur al-'Ayn, like unto preserved pearls. 56:22-23

    That's the only way he could wiggle his 'grapes' in there.

    He means to highlight examples not as explicit as mine, just to knock Islam, and muslims. If he really wants to knock Islam, he should make his contentions on firm arguments, and not wobbly shit he makes up. He also contends that the Qur'an originated in Aramaic. It doesn't. Some of the language may have links, because it is a close Semitic relative, but there is no historical evidence, besides his conjecture.

    Quote
    "And they have no knowledge of it, they only conjecture." 45:24

    A knowledgable muslim (used to be me) could easily knock him on his ass.



    I don't think he is trying to knock Islam and Muslims. I think he is doing the opposite. He is trying to distance Islam from the violent suicidal virgin seeking jihadis and present Islamic paradise as something other than an alfresco brothel.
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #14 - January 18, 2009, 02:09 AM
    Quote
    "(For the dwellers of paradise will be) Houris restrained in pavilions... Whom no man or jinn has opened their hymens before them." Qur'an 55:72-74

    "...and We shall marry them to Houris with wide, lovely eyes." Qur'an 44:54, 52:20

    "...A houri is a girl of tender age, having large breasts which are round (pointed), and not inclined to dangle...." Sunan at-Tirmidhi


    This just makes me sick.
    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #15 - January 18, 2009, 02:11 AM
    It bothered me that my mother liked Surah Ar-Rahman, when it had those verses in it. It's great at the beginning, but towards the end, not so appealing to women.
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #16 - January 18, 2009, 03:34 AM
    Quote from: awais on January 18, 2009, 02:11 AM
    It bothered me that my mother liked Surah Ar-Rahman, when it had those verses in it. It's great at the beginning, but towards the end, not so appealing to women.

    As religious as my family is, I know very little Quran.  wacko I should educate myself.
    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #17 - January 18, 2009, 03:36 AM
    I thought you didn't want to go to Qur'an class cuz the other kids were dumber than you? Smiley
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #18 - January 18, 2009, 03:42 AM
    Quote from: awais on January 18, 2009, 03:36 AM
    I thought you didn't want to go to Qur'an class cuz the other kids were dumber than you? Smiley

    hahaha. There is a difference between being TAUGHT quran and analyzing and knowing what you're arguing against thank you very much.
    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #19 - January 18, 2009, 03:44 AM
    yeah, well, to analyze, you still gotta read it first....
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #20 - January 18, 2009, 03:47 AM
    Quote from: awais on January 18, 2009, 03:44 AM
    yeah, well, to analyze, you still gotta read it first....

    That's what I'm trying to say.  aloofandbored0
    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #21 - January 18, 2009, 04:08 AM
    Why not study some, then go to Qur'an class and ask questions, see how it's understood as compared to how you take it.
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #22 - January 18, 2009, 04:40 AM
    Quote from: Iggy on January 18, 2009, 03:34 AM
    As religious as my family is, I know very little Quran.


    That is pretty much the norm with most Muslims, Iggy.

    And usually the bits Muslims know and pass on to others, are the nice bits.

    (And for Baal and others who think that Muslims who pass on the nice bits are all undercover Jihadis practising Taqiyya - they pass on the nice bits quite innocently and with all sincerity - NOT as part of a Global Taqiyya Jihadi plot - with Obama as their secret head.... Did I say that out loud?... Damn!! )
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #23 - January 18, 2009, 04:59 AM
    Shh!
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #24 - January 18, 2009, 06:14 AM
    That's it. The plot's fucked now. We'll have to kill everyone to keep the secret. cool2
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #25 - January 18, 2009, 03:43 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on January 18, 2009, 06:14 AM
    That's it. The plot's fucked now. We'll have to kill everyone to keep the secret. cool2


    Or pretend we were joking. (But let's keep the 'kill everyone' option open - just in case.)
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #26 - January 18, 2009, 05:43 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on January 18, 2009, 04:40 AM
    Quote from: Iggy on January 18, 2009, 03:34 AM
    As religious as my family is, I know very little Quran.


    That is pretty much the norm with most Muslims, Iggy.

    And usually the bits Muslims know and pass on to others, are the nice bits.

    (And for Baal and others who think that Muslims who pass on the nice bits are all undercover Jihadis practising Taqiyya - they pass on the nice bits quite innocently and with all sincerity - NOT as part of a Global Taqiyya Jihadi plot - with Obama as their secret head.... Did I say that out loud?... Damn!! )

    Hassan you are being another Elle or Gallego. Stop demonizing your opponents.

    I know that they pass the nice bits and keep the bad bits to themselves. As is common with any religious person. They keep the bad bits to themselves for many many reasons. Actually Taqqiya IMO  is the least of the reasons why would someone keep the bad bits to themselves.

    EDIT: My main issue with Taqqiya, is that in islam, it is permitted and encouraged by scripture. When in most other religions they have to do it only as a last resort out of necessity and embarrassment
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #27 - January 18, 2009, 05:49 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on January 18, 2009, 03:43 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on January 18, 2009, 06:14 AM
    That's it. The plot's fucked now. We'll have to kill everyone to keep the secret. cool2


    Or pretend we were joking. (But let's keep the 'kill everyone' option open - just in case.)

    Good plan.  Afro
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #28 - January 18, 2009, 06:59 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on January 18, 2009, 04:40 AM
    Quote from: Iggy on January 18, 2009, 03:34 AM
    As religious as my family is, I know very little Quran.


    That is pretty much the norm with most Muslims, Iggy.

    And usually the bits Muslims know and pass on to others, are the nice bits.


    Even when kids are 'taught' the Quran, it's mostly memorization and rarely comprehension. Quran class usually means memorization class. That's why I find it so tedious. What's so good about being a 'hafid' and knowing the whole Quran by heart?
    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
  • Re: 72 Virgins
     Reply #29 - January 18, 2009, 07:14 PM
    Quote from: Baal on January 18, 2009, 05:43 PM
    EDIT: My main issue with Taqqiya, is that in islam, it is permitted and encouraged by scripture. When in most other religions they have to do it only as a last resort out of necessity and embarrassment

    Huh? I remember learning the complete opposite. You should never, ever deny your faith, no matter what. Remember Sumayyah bint Khayyat?
    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
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